Israel will have a new PM, possibly a female

[risingsun]

Date: 2/26/2009 7:22:56 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 2/25/2009 2:29:48 PM
Author: beebrisk
I know you didn't...I was referring to a few others on this board, who I believe veil their Antisemitism in moral equivalencies.

Antisemtism:

'Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also known as Judeophobia) is a term used to describe prejudice against or hostility towards people of Jewish lineage, which is ultimately rooted in, and based upon, a historical religio-cultural aversion to their core ancestral religious beliefs and way of life.
This prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. '

OK Beebrisk - this is the definition of 'antisemitism'. Nobody on this forum has said anything that could be interpreted as antisemitic, and suggesting that anybody here is antisemitic as you did is not only purely speculative but also highly insulting. Can the criticism of Israeli actions and policies be rooted in antisemitism? Sure. Does it have to be? Of course not. Is comparing acts of violence between Israelis and Palestinians acceptable? That is up for debate (sorry). Is drawing comparisons a sign of antisemitism? Maybe , maybe not.
So before you throw around big words that you may use differently (and if you do, please make that clear) I would think twice. It is an unfortunate and unnecessary distraction from the topic at hand.

I responded to your other post, but I don't even know where to start with this one. Your comments are extremely offensive. You do not need to describe what anti-Semitism is to a Jewish person. We have lived with it. You might try learning more about Israel's history, as well as Jewish history. People I have respected have made comments about Jews and Israel, on this thread, that have left me speechless. I have not "screamed" anti-Semitism, but I have thought that there are some very uninformed people making such comments. One more point, Israel is a Jewish state that is fighting for the right to exist. The mandate of those fighting against Israel is to eradicate Israel because it is a Jewish state. Please try to understand what is involved here.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/26/2009 7:22:56 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 2/25/2009 2:29:48 PM

Author: beebrisk

I know you didn''t...I was referring to a few others on this board, who I believe veil their Antisemitism in moral equivalencies.

Antisemtism:


''Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also known as Judeophobia) is a term used to describe prejudice against or hostility towards people of Jewish lineage, which is ultimately rooted in, and based upon, a historical religio-cultural aversion to their core ancestral religious beliefs and way of life.

This prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. ''


OK Beebrisk - this is the definition of ''antisemitism''. Nobody on this forum has said anything that could be interpreted as antisemitic, and suggesting that anybody here is antisemitic as you did is not only purely speculative but also highly insulting. Can the criticism of Israeli actions and policies be rooted in antisemitism? Sure. Does it have to be? Of course not. Is comparing acts of violence between Israelis and Palestinians acceptable? That is up for debate (sorry). Is drawing comparisons a sign of antisemitism? Maybe , maybe not.

So before you throw around big words that you may use differently (and if you do, please make that clear) I would think twice. It is an unfortunate and unnecessary distraction from the topic at hand.

In a million years, would you have ever posted the definition of racism for an African American? I think not. See where I''m going with this?

So before you start throwing around definitions that you may interpret differently (and please, if you do, make it clear) I would think twice thrice.

 

[MoonWater]

Oh really, let's not bring racism up in this thread. I saw far too much of it in this part of the forum with little to no notice. I suppose it's no need to define what we aren't allowed to discuss. Besides, there is such a thing as playing the race card too often...I suppose other cards can be played too often as well.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 2/20/2009 7:08:35 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 2/13/2009 2:44:36 PM
Author: beebrisk
Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.

Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?

Yeah - criticizing Israeli policy is unfortunately considered racist and antisemitic, independent of the content of the criticism. That is exactly why we are getting nowhere. Please let me know how an expansion of Israeli settlements is going to promote long-term peace between Israelis and Palestinians. I'd be very interested. And the bombing of civilians, incursion into the gaza strip, the use of white phosphorous as well as economic isolation are no solution either. If the criticism of such policies are antisemitic, please be my guest. Of course I do not support any extremist Palestinian violence either, carried out by a small minority and not representative of all Palestinians. As long as there is no two state solution and an adequate level of employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians, Hamas will get popular support from some.
[/quote]Racism was brought up by Rob in his post. He opened the door for this aspect of the discussion. I agree that it has no place on this thread. I regret that he thought it would be a good idea to go there. Having said that, I think a response was called for to address the tone of his posts.

 

[MoonWater]

Marian, I love your posts. But I do not think an analogy made to black people and racism was even remotely warranted in light of the crap I''ve seen posted in this area. I, as a black woman, was offended so many times I''ve lost count, and yet I managed not to cry fowl every two second. I gave people the benefit of the doubt, even when privately I believed they did not deserve it. I think it''s pretty freaking lame to pull the antisemitic card right now. Most especially if you aren''t willing to call those people out directly.

 

[swimmer]

Moon is right, for someone who hates "equivocal comparisons" that one was totally off base.

Rob mentioned racism, there are a lot of "races" out there. He said nothing about African-Americans.

I guess I''m the Anti-Semite for putting it out there that my country of citizenship and origin has made some dreadful mistakes, not that the Palestinians are blameless, but that we must work together so that our children have peace. This is not radical and is clearly an opinion widely held by Israelis. Anyone who follows the elections would know that and understand how coalition-building works. It must be easy to just look at things very simplistically, and say "its too hard, this will never work" Is that the sort of pessimism that starts new and bold ventures?

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/27/2009 5:18:44 AM
Author: swimmer
Moon is right, for someone who hates ''equivocal comparisons'' that one was totally off base.


Rob mentioned racism, there are a lot of ''races'' out there. He said nothing about African-Americans.


I guess I''m the Anti-Semite for putting it out there that my country of citizenship and origin has made some dreadful mistakes, not that the Palestinians are blameless, but that we must work together so that our children have peace. This is not radical and is clearly an opinion widely held by Israelis. Anyone who follows the elections would know that and understand how coalition-building works. It must be easy to just look at things very simplistically, and say ''its too hard, this will never work'' Is that the sort of pessimism that starts new and bold ventures?

RisingSun was right when she stated that Anti Semitism was the last acceptable form of bigotry. The "equivocal comparison" I pointed out to Rob was wholly appropriate in light of his extraordinarily insensitive, condescending, and yes, bigoted remarks.

And Swimmer, please tell me when the Palestinian government has ever been interested in coalition building? You say they must "work together", that "something must be done", yet I''ve heard nary a suggestion.

I don''t think stating it''s futile to try to bring the Palestinians to the table IN PEACE is looking at it "simplistically". Rather, it''s looking at the reality. History doesn''t lie.

 

[swimmer]

Date: 2/27/2009 8:05:28 AM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/27/2009 5:18:44 AM

Author: swimmer

Moon is right, for someone who hates ''equivocal comparisons'' that one was totally off base.



Rob mentioned racism, there are a lot of ''races'' out there. He said nothing about African-Americans.



I guess I''m the Anti-Semite for putting it out there that my country of citizenship and origin has made some dreadful mistakes, not that the Palestinians are blameless, but that we must work together so that our children have peace. This is not radical and is clearly an opinion widely held by Israelis. Anyone who follows the elections would know that and understand how coalition-building works. It must be easy to just look at things very simplistically, and say ''its too hard, this will never work'' Is that the sort of pessimism that starts new and bold ventures?

RisingSun was right when she stated that Anti Semitism was the last acceptable form of bigotry. The ''equivocal comparison'' I pointed out to Rob was wholly appropriate in light of his extraordinarily insensitive, condescending, and yes, bigoted remarks.


And Swimmer, please tell me when the Palestinian government has ever been interested in coalition building? You say they must ''work together'', that ''something must be done'', yet I''ve heard nary a suggestion.


I don''t think stating it''s futile to try to bring the Palestinians to the table IN PEACE is looking at it ''simplistically''. Rather, it''s looking at the reality. History doesn''t lie.

Beebrisk,
Coalition building is part of ISRAELI politics, we have almost 30 different political parties, its a very different system than the US and rarely is one party ever in control. The Israelis who want to work on peace and not take your hard line stance won the last election numerically. There have been many cross border collaborations, I would wager that you don''t read Ha''aretz or the Jerusalem Post regularly if you have "heard nary a suggestion." These sources, which are in English, are chock full of exactly what you do not think exists. Again, I''m not talking about their "govt" and have made it super duper clear that I''m not. I''m talking about the Palestinian PEOPLE. Govts are not monolithic entities, they are make up of people, and people change, so govts change.

To address your other point, very sadly there are lots of types of bigotry out there, anti-semitism is hardly unique. People on this very board have typed some wildly homophobic and xenophobic things. I''m not even going to start on some comments about the poor...those comments were not at all Christian. Yes, I am very concerned with the rise of anti-semitism in the US and esp in western europe. Do you get the weekly emails from the Simon Wiesenthal center about incidents? Just shocking stuff in England and on US campuses this week.

I have no idea what history you are referring to. The term Palestinian was a Roman geographic term, the Arabs were really Ottomans till 1924, when the British took over and really refined the term. The British of course are the same folks who created Iraq around the same time, a clusterfreak if ever there was one. In 1948 the Brits left the Palestinians in charge of the area, but we all know the Jews won that battle, and again in 67, and 73, and yet the first and second Intifadas...well, there were no winners. Its is excessively simplistic to think that Israel can continue to exist like this. Yes, the reality is that there will be conflict, but how to contain it, and how to not raise generation after generation of young to die in the name of a patch of sandy earth...

The creation of Israel was the ultimate sign of hope, Jews first moved back from the Diaspora in the 12th century, more as a result of the Inquisition, and then more as Russian pogroms and the signs of war in Germany became clear. We were not always there, that is a reality. Where did that hope go if we are just supposed to accept a permanent state of war now? I do believe in miracles, isn''t that part of our faith? Every seder or sukkot or chanukkah, "they tried to kill us, we survived, let''s eat!"

Elle Chris had a great point that Jews were kicked out of Islamic lands in 1948 and no one has talked about giving their very choice real estate back. My father talks about that all the time, I think he is writing an article on it now as he has seemed pretty fired up on the topic lately. His book on the Yom Kippur War is seen as the definitive source on the conflict and he has been on CNN recently talking about the current conflict. He is far more centrist than I am of course and doesn''t trust Syria. I just don''t see Hamas as being able to stay in control very long. Election shenanigans there have been rampant. But remember, the leadership doesn''t necessarily reflect the feelings of the people. Moon, you are prob the only person still reading, but I know you just "Amen''d" that statement after the last 8 years of our own hideous leadership- or lack thereof.

phbbbbt, must grade some poorly written analysis of totally irrelevant theorists. Thanks for letting me ramble.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 2/27/2009 12:45:11 AM
Author: MoonWater
Marian, I love your posts. But I do not think an analogy made to black people and racism was even remotely warranted in light of the crap I''ve seen posted in this area. I, as a black woman, was offended so many times I''ve lost count, and yet I managed not to cry fowl every two second. I gave people the benefit of the doubt, even when privately I believed they did not deserve it. I think it''s pretty freaking lame to pull the antisemitic card right now. Most especially if you aren''t willing to call those people out directly.

It takes a lot for me to take someone specifically to task. When I read Rob and Karen''s posts I was shocked by the lack of knowledge--and the tone expressed--in their comments. I did think of what seemed to me to be a parallel between bigotry against Jews and Blacks. Back in the day, my rabbi marched with Martin Luther King. I was brought up to believe that prejudice was unacceptable. If I had read those comments you referred to, I would have responded to them, too. Rob is easy to dispute. Karen is not. I have respected her posts and am so distressed by her comments, I don''t think I could respond to her at this time.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/27/2009 8:59:51 AM
Author: swimmer

Date: 2/27/2009 8:05:28 AM

Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/27/2009 5:18:44 AM


Author: swimmer


Moon is right, for someone who hates ''equivocal comparisons'' that one was totally off base.




Rob mentioned racism, there are a lot of ''races'' out there. He said nothing about African-Americans.




I guess I''m the Anti-Semite for putting it out there that my country of citizenship and origin has made some dreadful mistakes, not that the Palestinians are blameless, but that we must work together so that our children have peace. This is not radical and is clearly an opinion widely held by Israelis. Anyone who follows the elections would know that and understand how coalition-building works. It must be easy to just look at things very simplistically, and say ''its too hard, this will never work'' Is that the sort of pessimism that starts new and bold ventures?

RisingSun was right when she stated that Anti Semitism was the last acceptable form of bigotry. The ''equivocal comparison'' I pointed out to Rob was wholly appropriate in light of his extraordinarily insensitive, condescending, and yes, bigoted remarks.



And Swimmer, please tell me when the Palestinian government has ever been interested in coalition building? You say they must ''work together'', that ''something must be done'', yet I''ve heard nary a suggestion.



I don''t think stating it''s futile to try to bring the Palestinians to the table IN PEACE is looking at it ''simplistically''. Rather, it''s looking at the reality. History doesn''t lie.

Beebrisk,

Coalition building is part of ISRAELI politics, we have almost 30 different political parties, its a very different system than the US and rarely is one party ever in control. The Israelis who want to work on peace and not take your hard line stance won the last election numerically. There have been many cross border collaborations, I would wager that you don''t read Ha''aretz or the Jerusalem Post regularly if you have ''heard nary a suggestion.'' These sources, which are in English, are chock full of exactly what you do not think exists. Again, I''m not talking about their ''govt'' and have made it super duper clear that I''m not. I''m talking about the Palestinian PEOPLE. Govts are not monolithic entities, they are make up of people, and people change, so govts change.


To address your other point, very sadly there are lots of types of bigotry out there, anti-semitism is hardly unique. People on this very board have typed some wildly homophobic and xenophobic things. I''m not even going to start on some comments about the poor...those comments were not at all Christian. Yes, I am very concerned with the rise of anti-semitism in the US and esp in western europe. Do you get the weekly emails from the Simon Wiesenthal center about incidents? Just shocking stuff in England and on US campuses this week.


I have no idea what history you are referring to. The term Palestinian was a Roman geographic term, the Arabs were really Ottomans till 1924, when the British took over and really refined the term. The British of course are the same folks who created Iraq around the same time, a clusterfreak if ever there was one. In 1948 the Brits left the Palestinians in charge of the area, but we all know the Jews won that battle, and again in 67, and 73, and yet the first and second Intifadas...well, there were no winners. Its is excessively simplistic to think that Israel can continue to exist like this. Yes, the reality is that there will be conflict, but how to contain it, and how to not raise generation after generation of young to die in the name of a patch of sandy earth...


The creation of Israel was the ultimate sign of hope, Jews first moved back from the Diaspora in the 12th century, more as a result of the Inquisition, and then more as Russian pogroms and the signs of war in Germany became clear. We were not always there, that is a reality. Where did that hope go if we are just supposed to accept a permanent state of war now? I do believe in miracles, isn''t that part of our faith? Every seder or sukkot or chanukkah, ''they tried to kill us, we survived, let''s eat!''


Elle Chris had a great point that Jews were kicked out of Islamic lands in 1948 and no one has talked about giving their very choice real estate back. My father talks about that all the time, I think he is writing an article on it now as he has seemed pretty fired up on the topic lately. His book on the Yom Kippur War is seen as the definitive source on the conflict and he has been on CNN recently talking about the current conflict. He is far more centrist than I am of course and doesn''t trust Syria. I just don''t see Hamas as being able to stay in control very long. Election shenanigans there have been rampant. But remember, the leadership doesn''t necessarily reflect the feelings of the people. Moon, you are prob the only person still reading, but I know you just ''Amen''d'' that statement after the last 8 years of our own hideous leadership- or lack thereof.


phbbbbt, must grade some poorly written analysis of totally irrelevant theorists. Thanks for letting me ramble.

As a matter of fact, I often read the Jerusalem Post and Ha''aretz. And what I was referring to was a suggestion from YOU, not them.

I understand quite well the the Palestinian "people" are not their government, however it is ultimately the responsibility of the Palestinian people to install REAL leadership as opposed to a band of thugs. They''ve spoken. They''ve chosen.

I would agree wholeheartedly that the formation of Israel was a clear sign of hope. The constant state of war however, is simply the result of those who refuse to accept it and aim (by way of "holy calling") for it''s destruction.

As for your assertion that the leadership of the last 8 years was "hideous", I''m saddened that you find the administration''s unending support of Israel and it''s people something to be sneered at--as opposed to what our new Secretary of State had to say today. Shameful. Absolutely shameful. But not surprising, really. Her "support" of Israel lasted about as long as her tenure amongst us New York Jews...many of whom were "hopeful" enough to vote for her.

 

[elle_chris]

I''m wondering if some of the people posting on this thread have any knoweledge of the history in the region? Or just rooting for the underdog? I ask because some of the statements I''ve seen, clearly show a lack of understanding on the issues surrounding the middle east and how they''ve lead to where the conflict is today.

I don''t mean for the above to sound snarky, I''m just generally curious as to why some of you have the opinion you do.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 2/27/2009 10:28:03 AM
Author: elle_chris
I'm wondering if some of the people posting on this thread have any knoweledge of the history in the region? Or just rooting for the underdog? I ask because some of the statements I've seen, clearly show a lack of understanding on the issues surrounding the middle east and how they've lead to where the conflict is today.

I don't mean for the above to sound snarky, I'm just generally curious as to why some of you have the opinion you do.

I really found your last post very educational. Please post more on the history and background of the middle east conflict. We can all benefit from more information, elle_chris.

 

[swimmer]

Date: 2/27/2009 10:28:03 AM
Author: elle_chris
I''m wondering if some of the people posting on this thread have any knoweledge of the history in the region? Or just rooting for the underdog? I ask because some of the statements I''ve seen, clearly show a lack of understanding on the issues surrounding the middle east and how they''ve lead to where the conflict is today.


I don''t mean for the above to sound snarky, I''m just generally curious as to why some of you have the opinion you do.

You don''t sound snarky. Please post away, you bring up great points.
I hope I don''t sound like an idiot here, but don''t really care if I do. I''m so passionate about looking for opportunities for peace that my English gets mangled and I run-on. As my DH and I are trying to have a baby we discuss if we will move back to kibbutz, we wonder where our future lies, and if we can raise a family the way we were raised. I spent soph year of HS in a bomb shelter, had to kill a man when I was 18, have stepped over the dead bodies of mangled babies and do not want that for my children. DH was in Mossad and has nightmares about some of the things he has seen and done. Like my grandfather who survived the camps, DH won''t talk about it because he wants it to be a separate world. Yes, violence is a reality there, but should we just accept it as the way it is going to be? Or should we work for something better? The answer is obvious to me.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/27/2009 11:10:06 AM
Author: swimmer

Date: 2/27/2009 10:28:03 AM

Author: elle_chris

I''m wondering if some of the people posting on this thread have any knoweledge of the history in the region? Or just rooting for the underdog? I ask because some of the statements I''ve seen, clearly show a lack of understanding on the issues surrounding the middle east and how they''ve lead to where the conflict is today.



I don''t mean for the above to sound snarky, I''m just generally curious as to why some of you have the opinion you do.

You don''t sound snarky. Please post away, you bring up great points.

I hope I don''t sound like an idiot here, but don''t really care if I do. I''m so passionate about looking for opportunities for peace that my English gets mangled and I run-on. As my DH and I are trying to have a baby we discuss if we will move back to kibbutz, we wonder where our future lies, and if we can raise a family the way we were raised. I spent soph year of HS in a bomb shelter, had to kill a man when I was 18, have stepped over the dead bodies of mangled babies and do not want that for my children. DH was in Mossad and has nightmares about some of the things he has seen and done. Like my grandfather who survived the camps, DH won''t talk about it because he wants it to be a separate world. Yes, violence is a reality there, but should we just accept it as the way it is going to be? Or should work for something better? The answer is obvious to me.

Swimmer,

Your experiences and DH''s are horrific. I would never want to diminish what you have been through in any way and I cannot imagine having lived it myself. No way can I wrap my head around being witness to such scenes.

However, you continually talk about "working'' for something better, but you never qualify what that means. Other than more concessions (which haven''t worked to date) how do you expect Israel to change the hearts and minds of a people who believe they are called by their god to annihilate the "infidels"? What exactly do you do with that philosophy?. The Nazi''s (bound by a similar philosophy) weren''t stopped by "talk" and "work", they were stopped by firepower.

 

[elle_chris]

I''m working today (from home but still working) and going into the history of the region would take hours. I did however find an unbiased (i think) site that shows a timeline, and history of the region. Just click on any country and it gives more info.
http://ehistory.osu.edu/middleeast/index.cfm

This is pretty basic stuff, but for those that don''t know, it''s a start.

I think anyone that has an opinion, be it jew, christian or muslim needs to undertand their part in the conflict.

I myself can easily blame the Israelies when I see the carnage that''s been caused in Palestine due to what many people believe is a fight for land. On the other hand, I also remember WHY Israel occupied that land to begin with after the 67 war and while that occupation hasn''t stopped all attacks, it has stopped many. By the way, over 90% of the land has been given back. The problem is that Israel has a blockade in place and goods have a problem getting in. Why did Israel do that? Well, since Hamas came into power, 2006 I believe? rockets into Israel have actually increased. So much for peace.

Bee- It''s an Ideology. All the firepower in the worlds isn''t going to stop fanatical attacks. Education would, but I believe that could only happen if the people voted Hamas out.

The other thing that works is no aid. Like I said originally, if ALL funding to Palestine and Israel stop, they would be forced to talk.
I know swimmer disagrees with me and thinks Israels tech industry is enough to sustain it, but I''m not so sure and think a 3 billion dollar loss annually would very much hurt Israel.

 

[swimmer]

Elle, Well I think it is an interesting idea, cutting off all monies, sort of like the thunderdome, two men enter, one man exits. Who can survive? It would however be hard to get Iran and the Saudis, etc to stop funding Hamas, and getting Nokia, Intel, Microsoft, parts of Google, etc out of Israel would be hard on those companies. And getting Jews to stop sending money to Israel, not sure how to do that. So its a bit of a moot point, the world is too intertwined to just stop funding.

Bee, I can not be any more clear. Education is the key. Collaborative, partnership building education. If you didn''t get that from my posts, well then you aren''t reading them.

I think any comparison with the Nazis to any group today is egregious and shows a basic lack of understanding of either periods of history.

I have a Masters degree in history, working on my PhD in a related area and read the papers in Hebrew and Arabic every morning. I worked as a tour guide in Israel prior to moving here and had to pass many rigorous exams on Middle Eastern history and the diverse cultures there, Risingsun if there are any specific questions you have about certain time periods I can try to help.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/27/2009 12:05:17 PM
Author: elle_chris
I''m working today (from home but still working) and going into the history of the region would take hours. I did however find an unbiased (i think) site that shows a timeline, and history of the region. Just click on any country and it gives more info.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/middleeast/index.cfm

This is pretty basic stuff, but for those that don''t know, it''s a start.

I think anyone that has an opinion, be it jew, christian or muslim needs to undertand their part in the conflict.


I myself can easily blame the Israelies when I see the carnage that''s been caused in Palestine due to what many people believe is a fight for land. On the other hand, I also remember WHY Israel occupied that land to begin with after the 67 war and while that occupation hasn''t stopped all attacks, it has stopped many. By the way, over 90% of the land has been given back. The problem is that Israel has a blockade in place and goods have a problem getting in. Why did Israel do that? Well, since Hamas came into power, 2006 I believe? rockets into Israel have actually increased. So much for peace.


Bee- It''s an Ideology. All the firepower in the worlds isn''t going to stop fanatical attacks. Education would, but I believe that could only happen if the people voted Hamas out.[/i]


The other thing that works is no aid. Like I said originally, if ALL funding to Palestine and Israel stop, they would be forced to talk.

I know swimmer disagrees with me and thinks Israels tech industry is enough to sustain it, but I''m not so sure and think a 3 billion dollar loss annually would very much hurt Israel.

The Nazis were some of the most highly educated and sophisticated people in Europe. "Knowledge" didn''t stop them. In fact, firepower DID end their "fanatical attacks". Your assertion is historically inaccurate.

You think education would happen if the Palestinians voted Hamas out? What about the pre-Hamas era? Palestinian schools have taught hate for the Jews for generations and I have no blind "hope" that this practice will stop anytime soon. And what of those who voted for them in the first place? No, I''m sorry to say "education" has nothing to do with it.

As for aid, should the US then stop aid to all it''s allies? Should we allow the one tiny democracy in a tinder box like the Middle East flail in the wind without support while Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria continue to funnel zillions into the coffers of the Palestinians?

Remember, if the Palestinians have their way and fulfill their destiny to destroy Israel and Jews, they''re coming after Christians and other non-Islamists next. There''s no doubt about that.

Your ideas are idealistic and altruistic but if we''ve learned anything from history we''ve learned that those "ideas" just don''t work.

 

[elle_chris]

Swimmer, you totally have me beat on the education part as I don''t have a masters in history. All of what I know about the conflict stems from my college days, reading and my own family. Who btw, are in total support of Israel (at least my father and he was in the IDF as well, during the Yom Kippur war).

I understand what you''re saying abouit sponsorship as well as the money from individuals as well as interest groups being sent there. But I still think that if all countries really wanted peace, they would push both sides hard enough to make it happen.

Just a quick question, as long as Hamas has power in Gaza (and i think that hamas and fatah are in cairo deciding how to split power. hoping they come to sort of agreement) you think there could be peace?

 

[elle_chris]

Bee- This is NOT Germany. And if history teaches you anything, it should teach you that firepower has NEVER worked in this part of the world. Also, your constant comparision to nazis really is over the top. This isn''t 1930''s Germany, period.

Yep, I believe U.S. aid should stop. I don''t care at this point if they''re the only Democratic country in the region, that''s besides the point. The point is U.S. aid to Israel, the E.U and Muslim countries aid to Palestine should stop. Both sides spend it on defense and arms. Neither is helping themselves.

If you really believe that every Palestinian wants to see dead jews, what do you propose doing? That line of thinking doesn''t open any doors for peace and makes you sound just as extreme as the other side.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/27/2009 12:26:40 PM
Author: swimmer
Elle, Well I think it is an interesting idea, cutting off all monies, sort of like the thunderdome, two men enter, one man exits. Who can survive? It would however be hard to get Iran and the Saudis, etc to stop funding Hamas, and getting Nokia, Intel, Microsoft, parts of Google, etc out of Israel would be hard on those companies. And getting Jews to stop sending money to Israel, not sure how to do that. So its a bit of a moot point, the world is too intertwined to just stop funding.


Bee, I can not be any more clear. Education is the key. Collaborative, partnership building education. If you didn''t get that from my posts, well then you aren''t reading them.


I think any comparison with the Nazis to any group today is egregious and shows a basic lack of understanding of either periods of history.


I have a Masters degree in history, working on my PhD in a related area and read the papers in Hebrew and Arabic every morning. I worked as a tour guide in Israel prior to moving here and had to pass many rigorous exams on Middle Eastern history and the diverse cultures there, Risingsun if there are any specific questions you have about certain time periods I can try to help.

With all due respect, "education" is not the key. You cannot "educate out" a philosophy ingrained in the hearts, minds and soul of a people. You are talking about "teaching" mothers that there is in fact, no nobility in sending their bomb wearing sons or daughters into crowded restaurants to find "paradise". You don''t take pure evil and educate it away. How bout the 12 year old Taliban boy who last year took great joy in the beheading of an American "spy"? Even if it CAN be done, it''s Israel''s responsibility to teach that such madness is wrong? We absolve the the crazies of this responsibility?


And I would beg to differ with you regarding my comparison. I understand the philosophies behind these groups and I understand deeply their profound influence on the evils that ensued 60 years ago--and today. To the contrary, not to compare them, and not to learn from them would be irresponsible.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/27/2009 1:00:47 PM
Author: elle_chris
Bee- This is NOT Germany. And if history teaches you anything, it should teach you that firepower has NEVER worked in this part of the world. Also, your constant comparision to nazis really is over the top. This isn''t 1930''s Germany, period.


Yep, I believe U.S. aid should stop. I don''t care at this point if they''re the only Democratic country in the region, that''s besides the point. The point is U.S. aid to Israel, the E.U and Muslim countries aid to Palestine should stop. Both sides spend it on defense and arms. Neither is helping themselves.


If you really believe that every Palestinian wants to see dead jews, what do you propose doing? That line of thinking doesn''t open any doors for peace and makes you sound just as extreme as the other side.

Thanks for the reminder that this is NOT Germany. As a person who believes there is much to learn from history, the comparisons are easily made--and understood.

I never said I believe that EVERY Palestinian wants to see dead jews. What I said was that their government wants the annihilation of the Jews and Israel. The very same government elected by the Palestinian people.

And again, if you believe education is key, please read on:


New textbooks for 12th-grade Palestinian students reject the existence of Israel and make no attempt to educate students about peace or coexistence, according to Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors Palestinian Arabic-language media and schoolbooks.

"The teachings repeatedly reject Israel''s right to exist, present the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, teach Israel''s founding as imperialism, and actively portray a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all," the group wrote in a February report entitled "From nationalist battle to religious conflict: New 12th Grade Palestinian schoolbooks present a world without Israel."

And how bout this little ditty from the Fatah Constitution:

* Article 17 ("armed public revolution is the inevitable method to liberating Palestine")
* Article 19 ("the struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished")
* Article 22 ("opposing any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation of Palestine")


And this from the Hamas Charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

THIS is the REALITY of what Israel lives with every day.
Now, what were you saying about leaving the doors open for peace?

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 2/27/2009 1:43:06 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/27/2009 1:00:47 PM
Author: elle_chris
Bee- This is NOT Germany. And if history teaches you anything, it should teach you that firepower has NEVER worked in this part of the world. Also, your constant comparision to nazis really is over the top. This isn''t 1930''s Germany, period.


Yep, I believe U.S. aid should stop. I don''t care at this point if they''re the only Democratic country in the region, that''s besides the point. The point is U.S. aid to Israel, the E.U and Muslim countries aid to Palestine should stop. Both sides spend it on defense and arms. Neither is helping themselves.


If you really believe that every Palestinian wants to see dead jews, what do you propose doing? That line of thinking doesn''t open any doors for peace and makes you sound just as extreme as the other side.

Thanks for the reminder that this is NOT Germany. As a person who believes there is much to learn from history, the comparisons are easily made--and understood.

I never said I believe that EVERY Palestinian wants to see dead jews. What I said was that their government wants the annihilation of the Jews and Israel. The very same government elected by the Palestinian people.

And again, if you believe education is key, please read on:


New textbooks for 12th-grade Palestinian students reject the existence of Israel and make no attempt to educate students about peace or coexistence, according to Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors Palestinian Arabic-language media and schoolbooks.

''The teachings repeatedly reject Israel''s right to exist, present the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, teach Israel''s founding as imperialism, and actively portray a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all,'' the group wrote in a February report entitled ''From nationalist battle to religious conflict: New 12th Grade Palestinian schoolbooks present a world without Israel.''

And how bout this little ditty from the Fatah Constitution:

* Article 17 (''armed public revolution is the inevitable method to liberating Palestine'')
* Article 19 (''the struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished'')
* Article 22 (''opposing any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation of Palestine'')


And this from the Hamas Charter:

''Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.''

THIS is the REALITY of what Israel lives with every day.
Now, what were you saying about leaving the doors open for peace?

And like I''ve said before- Hamas, as well as any fantaical group should NOT be in power.

I know what they teach their kids. What you''ve posted is nothing new, and you can find thousands of references to the hatred everywhere. Obviously that''s not what I meant by education. Do I really need to explain it?

I can make a reference right here to how this wonderful democratic nation of ours had slavery for over 200 years and thought nothing of it.
How the white christians of this country considered themselves better than everyone else and felt god had given them the right to own other men. That women weren''t even allowed to vote until sometime in the 1920''s. My point is that education does work. This country''s come a looong way in it''s short history because of education.
So can the Palestinians be taught that there''s more to life than hating the Israelies, and the destruction of Israel? of course. We''re all human and ultimately want the same things and that includes a good life for our kids. Unfortunately, the best they can see right now is having their child die what they consider a martyr.

Bee- You sound like my dad when he talks. He thinks I hate my own people if i dare say anything that he deems "positive" about the palestinians and their need for their own state and a stable goverment. On the contrary. I believe my own peoples livelihood relies on having stable neighbors. And I for one, am open to hearing all ideas- that while might not bring a "love they neighbor" mentality to the region, at least a "tolerate thy neighbor" one.

That''s why, while I''m fully aware of what''s taught, what''s happend and the history of the region, am tired of playing the blame game. I just want a peace.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/27/2009 5:30:53 PM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 2/27/2009 1:43:06 PM

Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/27/2009 1:00:47 PM

Author: elle_chris

Bee- This is NOT Germany. And if history teaches you anything, it should teach you that firepower has NEVER worked in this part of the world. Also, your constant comparision to nazis really is over the top. This isn''t 1930''s Germany, period.



Yep, I believe U.S. aid should stop. I don''t care at this point if they''re the only Democratic country in the region, that''s besides the point. The point is U.S. aid to Israel, the E.U and Muslim countries aid to Palestine should stop. Both sides spend it on defense and arms. Neither is helping themselves.



If you really believe that every Palestinian wants to see dead jews, what do you propose doing? That line of thinking doesn''t open any doors for peace and makes you sound just as extreme as the other side.

Thanks for the reminder that this is NOT Germany. As a person who believes there is much to learn from history, the comparisons are easily made--and understood.


I never said I believe that EVERY Palestinian wants to see dead jews. What I said was that their government wants the annihilation of the Jews and Israel. The very same government elected by the Palestinian people.


And again, if you believe education is key, please read on:



New textbooks for 12th-grade Palestinian students reject the existence of Israel and make no attempt to educate students about peace or coexistence, according to Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors Palestinian Arabic-language media and schoolbooks.


''The teachings repeatedly reject Israel''s right to exist, present the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, teach Israel''s founding as imperialism, and actively portray a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all,'' the group wrote in a February report entitled ''From nationalist battle to religious conflict: New 12th Grade Palestinian schoolbooks present a world without Israel.''


And how bout this little ditty from the Fatah Constitution:


* Article 17 (''armed public revolution is the inevitable method to liberating Palestine'')

* Article 19 (''the struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished'')

* Article 22 (''opposing any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation of Palestine'')



And this from the Hamas Charter:


''Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.''


THIS is the REALITY of what Israel lives with every day.

Now, what were you saying about leaving the doors open for peace?

And like I''ve said before- Hamas, as well as any fantaical group should NOT be in power.


I know what they teach their kids. What you''ve posted is nothing new, and you can find thousands of references to the hatred everywhere. Obviously that''s not what I meant by education. Do I really need to explain it?


I can make a reference right here to how this wonderful democratic nation of ours had slavery for over 200 years and thought nothing of it.

How the white christians of this country considered themselves better than everyone else and felt god had given them the right to own other men. That women weren''t even allowed to vote until sometime in the 1920''s. My point is that education does work. This country''s come a looong way in it''s short history because of education.

So can the Palestinians be taught that there''s more to life than hating the Israelies, and the destruction of Israel? of course. We''re all human and ultimately want the same things and that includes a good life for our kids. Unfortunately, the best they can see right now is having their child die what they consider a martyr.


Bee- You sound like my dad when he talks. He thinks I hate my own people if i dare say anything that he deems ''positive'' about the palestinians and their need for their own state and a stable goverment. On the contrary. I believe my own peoples livelihood relies on having stable neighbors. And I for one, am open to hearing all ideas- that while might not bring a ''love they neighbor'' mentality to the region, at least a ''tolerate thy neighbor'' one.


That''s why, while I''m fully aware of what''s taught, what''s happend and the history of the region, am tired of playing the blame game. I just want a peace.

While I agree Hamas should NOT be running things, the reality is that they are. So what do you do with that? You defend yourself and your land from a government bent on destroying you.

The underlying problem with your argument is that we DON''T all want the same thing. That was made obvious not only by the choice the Palestinians made in their leadership, but by their history. Read the entire Fatah Constitution (written by the way before the 67 war) and then tell me they want the same things! Read the Hamas Charter and tell me we all think alike. This isn''t fairy tale, it''s reality and you either act accordingly by fighting for your life and liberty, or you lay down and take it.

You''re right, there''s no room for blame when you''re fighting for your very survival.

 

[risingsun]

Bee- You sound like my dad when he talks. He thinks I hate my own people if i dare say anything that he deems "positive" about the palestinians and their need for their own state and a stable goverment. On the contrary. I believe my own peoples livelihood relies on having stable neighbors. And I for one, am open to hearing all ideas- that while might not bring a "love they neighbor" mentality to the region, at least a "tolerate thy neighbor" one.

I do not disagree with you, elle_chris. I just don''t know how we get from here to there. We can''t teach the Palestinians to change their ideology, nor can we suggest that the Arab nations change their ways of thinking about Israel. If I recall correctly, the Arab nations turned their backs on the Palestinians for many years and are now using them as pawns in their own insurrections against Israel. There are so many layers of mistrust and outright hatred, that it is difficult for me to see substantive changes in our lifetime. I absolutely agree that the Palestinians need their own state and a stable government. As swimmer has pointed out, with Iran and the Saudis supporting Hamas, how can we expect to see this happen. I don''t doubt that there are pockets of change and trust that are being forged, but enough to support lasting peace...I don''t expect to live to see it