Jedi spinel

[Avondale]

The reflected light of this type of spinel has a very rich red, but the body color is very dark. It shows the color of the reflected light when the light hits, and the body color when no light hits, which is why it has great colour when the light hits but dark if no light hits.

Does this same explanation apply to other stones of dark colours as well? It's so logical yet it never occurred to me before. And totally explains how sometimes dark stones hold such allure, dark blue sapphires being one of the most prominent examples.

 

[Gloria27]

@landscape If it does show normal fluorescence (not weak), is it still classified as a Pidgeon Blood/Noble red Spinel?
I assume it is.

 

[JewelledEscalators]

the spinel in your avatar we call it pigeon blood red spinel, which is also a range of colors, the darker ones we call black pigeon blood, and some people call it noble red spinel. The reflected light of this type of spinel has a very rich red, but the body color is very dark. It shows the color of the reflected light when the light hits, and the body color when no light hits, which is why it has great colour when the light hits but dark if no light hits.
In addition, this type of spinel has almost no fluorescence under UV light. Therefore, this type of spinel may have a relatively high iron content.
But there is no official trade name for the color of spinel, although some appraisal agencies give Jedi spinel an official business name, but not all appraisal agencies recognize it. As for others such as pigeon blood red, noble red, etc., don't pay too much attention to these names, for colored gemstones, rich, bright colors are always the best, no matter what it is called.
The images below can demonstrate the effect of this type of spinel.The gemstone circled in blue is the same one pigeon blood red spinel as these three separate shots, showing the different color effects under light hits and no light hits

Wow that stone looks very dark when the light isn't hitting on it.

I always thought this kind of deep red spinel was typical of Burmese material, and considered one of the finest examples of spinels until Mahenge spinels (and Jedi) burst onto the scene. It seems that there is relatively strong demand for them in places like China.

People often say they look like garnets but are there any optical qualities that make these darker red spinels differ from garnets? Which one is more sparkly?

 

[Starstruck8]

Does this same explanation apply to other stones of dark colours as well? It's so logical yet it never occurred to me before. And totally explains how sometimes dark stones hold such allure, dark blue sapphires being one of the most prominent examples.

Yes, exactly.

If you ignore silk, inclusions, fluorescence and the like, a facet is always reflecting the light from some part of its environment. If it's a bright part (e.g., an actual light or a bright sky), the facet will look bright. If it's a dark part, the facet will look dark. This is why jewellery shops like to have lots of small lights - it helps to make their stones scintillate. It's also the reason for the standard advice that you should judge body colour in soft even light.

There's more. The colours we usually experience are those of diffusely reflecting objects. Only certain colours are possible for such objects. We have an intuitive sense of what these colours are, and we regard them as normal. For example, it’s not possible to have a bright dark blue. Any ‘normal’ (diffusely reflecting) object that reflects only a narrow band of extreme blue wavelengths will necessarily look dark. But suppose a sapphire transmits only a narrow band of extreme blue wavelengths. Viewed in soft even light, it will look dark, just like a normal object. But if the lighting is uneven, and a facet catches the light, it will look bright – ‘impossibly’ bright, i.e. brighter that any normal object that reflected only those wavelengths could possibly be. Our eyes notice this and interpret it as ‘alluring’, ‘magical’, ‘special’, ‘unearthly’, pick your adjective. (A similar sort of story explains why stained-glass windows look so special.)

This sort of thing can happen for any colour, but it’s most often seen in blue sapphires, red spinels and rubies.

 

[JewelledEscalators]

Just out of interest, if you foiled backed a dark red spinel like @landscape's, I wonder if that would really light up the stone even in low light?

 

[Lovinggems]

@landscape with the GUILD reports, how do you find their grading, is it worth taking into account when looking at spinels online?

I have seen a few Jedi spinels GUILD reports online, some are annotated with the term Vibrant-brilliance and some without. Do you know more about it? Thank you

These are the stones received in the last two months. Among them are Vietnamese pigeon blood rubies and Jedi spinels. These spinels and rubies have been posted before. This time, the photo uses a very unfriendly sidelight for faceted gemstones, so you can see what makes jedi spinel special. Pigeon blood ruby and Jedi spinel can also show the difference in tone



These three are included in the picture: 1、pigeon blood red spinel, 2、GUILD jedi spinel, 3、GUILD jedi spinel real jedi spinel

 

[landscape]

Does this same explanation apply to other stones of dark colours as well? It's so logical yet it never occurred to me before. And totally explains how sometimes dark stones hold such allure, dark blue sapphires being one of the most prominent examples.

yes，I think so

 

[landscape]

@landscape If it does show normal fluorescence (not weak), is it still classified as a Pidgeon Blood/Noble red Spinel?
I assume it is.

Whether it is called Noble red Spine or not depends on whether the reflected light is positive red.usually with positive red reflected light with no UV fluorescence or very weak UV fluorescence. usually reflects light with pink tones, rose tones, or other tones if strong UV fluorescence. It may not be obvious on its own, but the rose-red hue is easy to see in contrast, especially in natural light.
I posted a comparison photo of two dark red spinels, the one with UV fluorescence has a rose-red tint, and the one without UV fluorescence is true red. I'm here at night, so I can't shoot natural light. I'll make up for the comparison of natural light during the day tomorrow.
As I mentioned above, there is no need to care about the business name, because they are not official, we just look for the color we like, some people like the dark red spinel that is true red, they think that true red is Noble red Spine, but some people don't care about the color, as long as the color is strong enough, it can also be called Noble red Spine

 

[landscape]

Wow that stone looks very dark when the light isn't hitting on it.

I always thought this kind of deep red spinel was typical of Burmese material, and considered one of the finest examples of spinels until Mahenge spinels (and Jedi) burst onto the scene. It seems that there is relatively strong demand for them in places like China.

People often say they look like garnets but are there any optical qualities that make these darker red spinels differ from garnets? Which one is more sparkly?

From the market price point of view, the price of dark red spinel is much lower than that of jedi spinel, and also lower than pink-red spinel, especially in the Asian market. The only advantage of dark red spinel is that it has a relatively strong and pure red tone in places with sufficient light, but the number of pure red dark red spinel is not very large, and most of them still have a rose red or orange tone. As for the contrast between dark red spinel and red garnet, dark spinel does not have much advantage, regardless of hue, refractive index, or rich color, the advantage of spinel is only hardness

 

[landscape]

@landscape with the GUILD reports, how do you find their grading, is it worth taking into account when looking at spinels online?

I have seen a few Jedi spinels GUILD reports online, some are annotated with the term Vibrant-brilliance and some without. Do you know more about it? Thank you

Red or pink-red spinel, if there is no dark field and with strong UV fluorescence, GUILD will give a JEDI grading
Vibrant-brilliance means good clarity and cut

 

[landscape]

Just out of interest, if you foiled backed a dark red spinel like @landscape's, I wonder if that would really light up the stone even in low light?

Dark red spinels need plenty of light, they are like black briquettes in low-light environments, whether it has UV fluorescence or not

 

[JewelledEscalators]

Whether it is called Noble red Spine or not depends on whether the reflected light is positive red.usually with positive red reflected light with no UV fluorescence or very weak UV fluorescence. usually reflects light with pink tones, rose tones, or other tones if strong UV fluorescence. It may not be obvious on its own, but the rose-red hue is easy to see in contrast, especially in natural light.
I posted a comparison photo of two dark red spinels, the one with UV fluorescence has a rose-red tint, and the one without UV fluorescence is true red. I'm here at night, so I can't shoot natural light. I'll make up for the comparison of natural light during the day tomorrow.
As I mentioned above, there is no need to care about the business name, because they are not official, we just look for the color we like, some people like the dark red spinel that is true red, they think that true red is Noble red Spine, but some people don't care about the color, as long as the color is strong enough, it can also be called Noble red Spine

Really love the one on the right

 

[landscape]

Really love the one on the right

Although the color preference is very personal, I have to say that the one on the right is a very ordinary dark red spinel, I have many, the one on the left is more difficult to find, and I have only one

 

[JewelledEscalators]

Although the color preference is very personal, I have to say that the one on the right is a very ordinary dark red spinel, and the one on the left is more difficult to find

Really? Are we talking about the same one? You mean the one that is black under UV light is harder to find than the one with flourescence?

 

[Gloria27]

Whether it is called Noble red Spine or not depends on whether the reflected light is positive red.usually with positive red reflected light with no UV fluorescence or very weak UV fluorescence. usually reflects light with pink tones, rose tones, or other tones if strong UV fluorescence. It may not be obvious on its own, but the rose-red hue is easy to see in contrast, especially in natural light.
I posted a comparison photo of two dark red spinels, the one with UV fluorescence has a rose-red tint, and the one without UV fluorescence is true red. I'm here at night, so I can't shoot natural light. I'll make up for the comparison of natural light during the day tomorrow.
As I mentioned above, there is no need to care about the business name, because they are not official, we just look for the color we like, some people like the dark red spinel that is true red, they think that true red is Noble red Spine, but some people don't care about the color, as long as the color is strong enough, it can also be called Noble red Spine

Thank you very much for posting this.
I will attach a photo of the fluorescence I get. I apologise for putting it on your thread but I'd really like to know more.
This is my stone next to a Madagascan Sapphire, my UV lamp is cheapo and weak but the stone look quite bright.

 

[landscape]

Thank you very much for this.
I will attach a photo of the fluorescence I get. I apologise for putting it on your thread but I'd really like to know more.
This is my stone next to a Madagascan Sapphire, my UV lamp is cheapo and weak but the stone look quite bright.

I like more discussions.
If this one has such UV fluorescence, I think yours is similar to the dark red spinel on the right side of my comparison, it should not be pure red under natural light
Of course,it can still be called pigeon blood red spinel

 

[landscape]

Really? Are we talking about the same one? You mean the one that is black under UV light is harder to find than the one with flourescence?

What I mean is that the true red spinel without other tones is more difficult to find. The one on the left is like this. In fact, it has nothing to do with UV fluorescence, but if the spinel has UV fluorescence, it will hardly be true red. A dark red spinel, if it doesn't have a true red hue, I don't think there is any particular concern, too many bright spinels can crush this dark red spinel, except for true red, bright Spinel will not have a positive red hue

 

[Gloria27]

I like more discussions.
If this one has such UV fluorescence, I think yours is similar to the dark red spinel on the right side of my comparison, it should not be pure red under natural light
Of course,it can still be called pigeon blood red spinel

Thank you! I already edited my post because I was feeling bad for posting here.
I have a thread if you'd like to see more images of my stone. I tried to capture it in all lighting situations possible. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/burmese-spinel.251758/

I still think mine is darker than yours.

 

[landscape]

Thank you! I already edited my post because I was feeling bad for posting here.
I have a thread if you'd like to see more images of my stone. I tried to capture it in all lighting situations possible. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/burmese-spinel.251758/

I still think mine is darker than yours.

Thank you! I already edited my post because I was feeling bad for posting here.
I have a thread if you'd like to see more images of my stone. I tried to capture it in all lighting situations possible. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/burmese-spinel.251758/

I still think mine is darker than yours.

I looked at the picture of your thread, and I can confirm that it is not a true red, it is a normal dark red spinel with a distinct rose tone, because it can be seen without contrast. But the price of 1+ct170usd is also very reasonable. Of course it can also be called pigeon blood red spinel

 

[Gloria27]

I looked at the picture of your thread, and I can confirm that it is not a true red, it is a normal dark red spinel with a distinct rose tone, because it can be seen without contrast. But the price of 1+ct170usd is also very reasonable. Of course it can also be called pigeon blood red spinel

Every day is school day it's why I like this forum,
cheers!

 

[maru8888777]

@landscape this is so interesting, thank you! I know someone asked you about GUILD, but how do you find other grading for spinels, like AIGS? I know you've said it's better to use your eye, but for some of us buying from overseas, sometimes it's not possible to see before buying, so the lab reports can sometimes be useful. Thank you!

 

[landscape]

@landscape this is so interesting, thank you! I know someone asked you about GUILD, but how do you find other grading for spinels, like AIGS? I know you've said it's better to use your eye, but for some of us buying from overseas, sometimes it's not possible to see before buying, so the lab reports can sometimes be useful. Thank you!

The standard of jedi spinel formulated by AIGS is very good. Although their own certificates may not strictly follow their own standards, we can choose jedi spinel strictly according to that standard.
Because I have collected almost all color samples of Burmese spinel, and I am also a photographer, taking pictures of gemstones a lot. I can roughly infer the true situation of the corresponding spinel based on the spinel picture, and then I will make my own judgment based on the rarity and market conditions. This is the experience accumulated by money, and there is no other way.
Buy spinel with a return guarantee. Only by seeing enough real objects will you have experience. There is no other way. The certificate can only prove the variety and whether it has been treated, the grade of spinel really can only be based on experience

 

[landscape]

Every day is school day it's why I like this forum,
cheers!

Thanks for discussions

 

[JewelledEscalators]

In fact, it has nothing to do with UV fluorescence, but if the spinel has UV fluorescence, it will hardly be true red. A dark red spinel, if it doesn't have a true red hue, I don't think there is any particular concern, too many bright spinels can crush this dark red spinel, except for true red, bright Spinel will not have a positive red hue except for true red, bright Spinel will not have a positive red hue

Thanks.

Would you say this is the same for rubies, e.g. rubies with flourescence will not be true red and bright rubies do not havea positive red hue?

Or does the fact that rubies are double refractive vs spinels being singly refractive make this not necessarily so.

Apologies for all the questions.

 

[landscape]

Thanks.

Would you say this is the same for rubies, e.g. rubies with flourescence will not be true red and bright rubies do not havea positive red hue?

Or does the fact that rubies are double refractive vs spinels being singly refractive make this not necessarily so.

Apologies for all the questions.

No, only for dark red spinel.Because UV fluorescence has no use for dark red spinel, if dark red spinel is not true red, there is no advantage compared to bright red spinel.
But if the dark red spinel has a positive red hue, they will be prettier than a lot of bright red spinels when the light hits, that's the advantage of dark red spinel, lose this advantage, dark red spinel compared to Bright red spinel is useless

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

the spinel in your avatar we call it pigeon blood red spinel, which is also a range of colors, the darker ones we call black pigeon blood, and some people call it noble red spinel. The reflected light of this type of spinel has a very rich red, but the body color is very dark. It shows the color of the reflected light when the light hits, and the body color when no light hits, which is why it has great colour when the light hits but dark if no light hits.
In addition, this type of spinel has almost no fluorescence under UV light. Therefore, this type of spinel may have a relatively high iron content.
But there is no official trade name for the color of spinel, although some appraisal agencies give Jedi spinel an official business name, but not all appraisal agencies recognize it. As for others such as pigeon blood red, noble red, etc., don't pay too much attention to these names, for colored gemstones, rich, bright colors are always the best, no matter what it is called.
The images below can demonstrate the effect of this type of spinel.The gemstone circled in blue is the same one pigeon blood red spinel as these three separate shots, showing the different color effects under light hits and no light hits

Very interesting to see the difference lighting makes. All these jewel tones made my morning!

 

[JewelledEscalators]

Although the color preference is very personal, I have to say that the one on the right is a very ordinary dark red spinel, I have many, the one on the left is more difficult to find, and I have only one

Sorry, just to confirm again, the 'right' stone you are referring to is the smaller stone, correct?

 

[landscape]

Very interesting to see the difference lighting makes. All these jewel tones made my morning!

Thanks

 

[landscape]

Sorry, just to confirm again, the 'right' stone you are referring to is the smaller stone, correct?

Sorry, just to confirm again, the 'right' stone you are referring to is the smaller stone, correct?

Yes ， the smaller is a very ordinary red spinel, and the bigger one is more difficult to find

 

[landscape]

The discussion with @Gloria27 about Pidgeon Blood/Noble red Spinel led to many other arguments. Since these are not official business names, I didn't want to say too much about their definitions, because if it's not official, there's no standard. But since there's been a lot of talk about Pidgeon Blood/Noble red Spinel, I'd like to give my own opinion.
First of all, pigeon blood red spinel is a relatively large range, and the reflected light color looks like dark red, it can be said to be pigeon blood red spinel. But Noble red Spinel, royal blue etc are a narrower range of colors. In my personal opinion, Noble red Spinel belongs to the dark red spinel range, and the hue of the reflected light must be true red.
Dark red spinels are very common, but red without other tone are uncommon. A lot of the so-called red spinels are not really red, including the one from @Gloria27, which I'll post for comparison. So that spinel cannot be called Noble red Spinel in my case.
Usually spinels with strong UV fluorescence have bright colors, but a dark red spinel shows that UV does not play a bright role on it, and according to my observations, dark spinels with UV fluorescence It is basically impossible to achieve a true red color.
Noble red Spine is a calm and rich red. Brightness is not its characteristic, but the rich positive red tone is its characteristic. Losing this feature, it is a very ordinary dark red spinel.

I have posted some Burmese spinels that look red individually, almost all of them can be called pigeon blood red spinel, but I put them together with the true red spinel and you can easily see the difference. I've also included a comparison screenshot of the dark red spinel from @Gloria27 below.
There is a 1.85ct Jedi spinel in the comparison picture, and I will also compare the true red dark red spinel and the Jedi spinel separately when the light hits. Through the comparison with Jedi spinel, we can understand that Noble red Spinel and Jedi spinel have their own characteristics under strong light, and there is no winner or loser. And other dark red spinels that not true red are completely crushed in front of the Jedi spinel
This is why we separate Noble red Spinel from dark red spinel


Pidgeon Blood red spinel ，first one from@Gloria27






Various contrasts, we can see that the red we think is not the real red


Contrasted with Jedi spinel when the light hits.