Just curious, but why don’t we see a lot of Q-R, S-T, & U-V stones?

[winnietucker]

I was looking at a thread admiring their U-V diamond when it dawned on me that these just aren’t super common. Not just in terms of people who own them, but I noticed not many are offered for sale.

Why is this? Are roughs that would be in that range if cut into one shape cut another way? Are they just not common?

 

[distracts]

I’ve wondered this too!

 

[AV_]

CBI & AV dare already. I'd rather hear from them.

 

[winnietucker]

@AV_ Thats true I have seen a couple lower colored diamonds from both vendors online.

 

[AV_]

Wild guess:

It must feel strange to state prices so different.

Then, I feel cut needs to be talked about all over again for light colors [lightly started www ]

I do expect more very fine cut www

 

[lovedogs]

I think because they are less popular and less in demand.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I agree with @lovedogs. I guess the next question is why are they less popular? Marketing? Customer preference? Most people have never seen good quality lower color diamonds? Perhaps another reason for those who have seen good quality low color diamonds is lighting conditions. Most well cut white diamonds look bright in the majority of lighting conditions.Lower cut diamonds while sparkling can appear brownish or brownish/yellow instead of bright and buttery in lower lights. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Karl_K]

Online dealers live and die by turn over and they can be slow to turn over.
Cutting costs: super ideals and high performance fancies have higher cutting costs. It costs the same to cut a D/vs1 as a UV/vs1 of the same size so the cutting costs become a higher percentage of the price they have to get.
At some point the numbers dont add up.
For example lets say the cutting cost is $500 on a stone that sells for $10000 that is 5%. The same cutting cost of $500 on a $2500 stone is 20% and is unsustainable.

 

[AV_]

... sparkling can appear brownish or brownish/yellow instead of bright and buttery in lower lights.

This is how I feel the cut for light colors is not simple!

There are light brownish yellows - golden or gray/green/cold, or the cut may be a muddle, or both.

 

[Karl_K]

I forgot to mention sales cost.
To provide the PS expected level of service is not cheap if your average sale total is not high enough your lose money.
Your sales cost does not go down with sale amount.

 

[winnietucker]

Online dealers live and die by turn over and they can be slow to turn over.
Cutting costs: super ideals and high performance fancies have higher cutting costs. It costs the same to cut a D/vs1 as a UV/vs1 of the same size so the cutting costs become a higher percentage of the price they have to get.
At some point the numbers dont add up.
For example lets say the cutting cost is $500 on a stone that sells for $10000 that is 5%. The same cutting cost of $500 on a $2500 stone is 20% and is unsustainable.

That makes sense. But what happens to all the roughs that would have become diamonds in those ranges?

 

[John P]

Adding to @Karl_K 's comments.

That makes sense. But what happens to all the roughs that would have become diamonds in those ranges?

Also a money matter. Producers often plan them with angles which window or trap light inside (both of which emphasize body color) and submit them hoping to get fancy light yellow or brown.

Remember the effects of cutting can change the color grade with FCD's since they are graded from the top and not the side. And steep-deep angles which serve to entrap color result in higher final carat weights and depths which are not penalized in FCD grading.

 

[Karl_K]

That makes sense. But what happens to all the roughs that would have become diamonds in those ranges?

If they can not be turned into fancy yellow with trick cutting then they are cut by the lower cost cutters and sold in various markets often with reports from crap labs or with no reports.

Thank you Sir John that slipped my mind.

 

[winnietucker]

@John Pollard & @Karl_K

Very interesting. Thanks for answering my questions!

 

[Karl_K]

@John Pollard Do these forced Fancy Light get graded? GIA?

Yes
GIA fancy light sells for far more than any other lab so if it will get it at GIA that is where it goes.
If it does not make it at gia it often gets sent to igi then lower labs.

 

[cflutist]

@John Pollard

So why did CBI decide to cut my 2.31 Q-VVS2 with the same precision as my other 4 CBIs?

For those interested here are photos that @Wink sent while I was trying to decide to buy it or not. Because I was so unsure of myself he suggested that he cancel the sale. I am sure glad that I didn't listen to him.



This is comparing a Q against 3 Fs



Here is the finished ring

 

[John P]

Yes
GIA fancy light sells for far more than any other lab so if it will get it at GIA that is where it goes.
If it does not make it at gia it often gets sent to igi then lower labs.

Totally wrong. Terrible answer.

Just kidding. He's right.

I would HRD to the list of reliable FCD grading labs, from a global perspective. While doing that, I'll congratulate Ellen Joncheere here. She takes charge on Monday.

 

[AV_]

So why did CBI decide to cut my 2.31 Q-VVS2 with the same precision as my other 4 CBIs?

I feel this is something good many are trying. The news is a little lost as a footnote on whites.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I see stones in these color ranges pretty much every day.
Here in NYC, HRD paper is pretty much unheard of- the vast majority of such stones go to GIA.

As has been discussed- much of the rough that in these colors is cut to Cushion, or Radiant- or other cutting styles that increase perceived body color through the table.

Noteworthy in this discussion that Indian cutters are truly upping the game. We see far better makes on stones in these color ranges as compared to 10 years back.

Even though we see these stones all the time, they are indeed, much less common than say...H color RBC's.
This is a strong indicator that the rarity of a given diamond doesn't control the price.

 

[Karl_K]

Noteworthy in this discussion that Indian cutters are truly upping the game. We see far better makes on stones in these color ranges as compared to 10 years back.

Many of them are using DiamCalc color and related processes/equipment to get better face up color/grades.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Remember the effects of cutting can change the color grade with FCD's since they are graded from the top and not the side.

This is an interesting point John. I've always wondered how GIA can maintain consistency if a Y-Z is graded through the pavilion and a FLY is graded through the table. But somehow they do!

In terms of the depths. as I mentioned, we see far better makes lately- on FCD's in general but also the lower end of the alphabet.
It's amazing how table sizes are routinely around 60%- years ago most were above 70....
I've personally not noticed a decrease in spread either. In fact, they seem to have gotten depths down on average as well.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Many of them are using DiamCalc color and related processes/equipment to get better face up color/grades.

By "better" you mean with more color, yes? And that does make sense, about DiamCalc

 

[Karl_K]

@John Pollard

So why did CBI decide to cut my 2.31 Q-VVS2 with the same precision as my other 4 CBIs?

Congrats awesome stone.
Sir John can correct me but.....
I am just guessing the 2.31ct weight is probably a big part of why they could cut it and they may have got a good deal on the rough.
Over the years Paul has tried many different things.

 

[cmd2014]

I was wondering if some of these roughs might also get steered towards industrial uses. If historically they didn't command a high a price in the jewelry market, they would still be valuable for industrial purposes. But perhaps that is more true for filings and dust.

 

[Karl_K]

By "better" you mean with more color, yes? And that does make sense, about DiamCalc

Yes more face up color and more even color also.

 

[Lucy-In-The-Sky]

My engagement ring is a Q/R and sometimes I wish it was warmer, so I'd be thrilled if it was a bit easier to find Q/R, S/T, etc stones.

I'm a redhead with warm/autumn coloring and the warm buttery/ivory/lemony tones work really well with my coloring and the colors I tend to wear. DEF, not so much. In an ideal world, I don't think I'd want anything above a K or L, for me.

In addition to the points already raised, I don't think most consumers have ever knowingly seen a well cut, lower color/warmer stone. I don't think they've even been given an opportunity to decide if they like them.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Oddly enough....my experience in the secondary market for antique stones is that the colors from about L, through S-T, are far more common than higher color OMB, OEC, or CB's.
The reason is that so many of the high color antique stones were recut in the '60's and '70's. it didn't make financial sense to recut an M color, but a D was a no brainer.

 

[AV_]

@cmd2014 I've seen beautiful diamonds intended for exotic drills or screens - no reason for their buyers to be offered discounts. I wish I saw some of those drills - some exciting metalurgy, beautiful shape & suggar cube sized diamonds. Who gets to play!

 

[AV_]

I've always wondered how GIA can maintain consistency if a Y-Z is graded through the pavilion and a FLY is graded through the table. But somehow they do

You must know!

In terms of GIA grades, what cannot either pass for Old White or over-wrought Fancy?

 

[Rockdiamond]

In terms of GIA grades, what cannot either pass for Old White or over-wrought Fancy?

I'm a bit confused by this question ( easy to do)
Can you please clarify?