???!! KIM DAVIS met the Pope????!!!

[jordyonbass]

I respect Pope Francis. I think he teaches us all a much needed lesson. Regardless of whether people agree or disagree on any issue, every human being should be treated with kindness and respect. I think people see the genuine kindness and respect from Pope Francis and they respond to it. Pope Francis is also different in that he refuses to get caught up in much of the pomp and circumstance of being Pope. He lives and travels simply when he can. He refuses to be kept separated from the people.

As to doctrinal changes, the Pope can try to steer the Church to some extent but it is a major ordeal to bring about changes to the doctrine of the church. It takes consensus of countless people and it takes years and years before change is actually made. A Pope does not have the power to just waltz in and start changing Church doctrine.

It's a conflicted message if that's the case as he (along with every other pope) has been a public opponent to equality in it's many forms. You can't ask people to treat each other with kindness and respect and then express inequality amongst people.

The church has been brought from the dark ages, kicking and screaming like a toddler having a tantrum and the current pope bloke is just a mortal man who has minimal power when it comes to secular, human rights decisions. That's a good thing as well as we can already see that equality is somewhere on the bottom of his list. It's equality for his friends only.

 

[lioness]

I tried for years to reconcile myself to their teachings, but when it became clear that they condoned sexual abuse of children I cut all ties. The pope didn't know about it? I don't believe that.

I have been amused by the media's love affair with this new pope. After you scratch the surface he is the same as the hundreds before him.He opposes contraception, abortion, same sex marriage and the ordination of women. He supports Kim Davis as a conscientious objector. He seems like a nice man personally, but he does not support reform. Do not be sucked in.

This.

 

[Gypsy]

That's too bad.

My hopes were raised. I believe that this pope is different. He doesn't endorse fanaticism, speaks against it, and does preach tolerance of our differences more than any other Pope has in the past. Is it a cataclysmic change? Not for those of us who live in the real world. But among white men 70 and up who are 'qualified' to be pope, well... he is a rebel. It's all a matter of context in my opinion.

That said, to give Kim Davis the legitimacy of a private meeting is disappointing to say the least. That woman infuriates me.

 

[missy]

If this story is true, than this pope is off my list.

I am 62 years old. I was raised by Catholics, went to Catholic schools and went to mass 6 days each week for the first 18 years of my life.

I am married to a former seminarian and a still practicing Catholic.My point is that I have had a ringside seat.

I tried for years to reconcile myself to their teachings, but when it became clear that they condoned sexual abuse of children I cut all ties. The pope didn't know about it? I don't believe that.

I have been amused by the media's love affair with this new pope. After you scratch the surface he is the same as the hundreds before him.He opposes contraception, abortion, same sex marriage and the ordination of women. He supports Kim Davis as a conscientious objector. He seems like a nice man personally, but he does not support reform. Do not be sucked in.

Lulu, you've seen a lot of popes come and go, so I took your post seriously. You're right.

Meet the new pope, same as the old pope.

Sadly I have to agree now. I had high hopes for Pope Francis. I thought he was different. I thought we were seeing a wiser and kinder Catholic church. Now I realize it *is* the same old same old. Meeting with Kim Davis was very poor judgement and a very bad move. I thought this Pope was more thoughtful but actions speak louder than words. You can dress a pig up with lipstick and it is still a pig. No offense to all the sweet adorable and smart pigs out there.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I think it is unrealistic to believe a Catholic pope would suddenly change Catholic doctrine. What is more important is his voicing of tolerance for women in the church who have had abortions. There is acceptance into the fold. This does not mean he accepts abortion. Same with gays. He accepts people as they are. That is a big step forward. BUT, we all have systems of belief that may differ from others. The point being that we must be tolerant of others. We don't have to believe what others believe. So, this Pope is above other recent popes. I like him.

The Catholic church has a lot to answer for. Yes, I believe the policy of the church was to cover up the child abuse sex scandal .

The POpe has asked for opinions or a study to determine whether or not priests should be allowed to marry. Thats a big deal.


Annette

I think this Pope is different because he is from a different culture and sees things differently from the dominant European hierarchy.

 

[partgypsy]

I am disappointed that he met with Kim Davis, because regardless of what they talked about it endorses her views/actions.

However in general I have been inspired by Pope Francis. He does have the responsibility to uphold the Catholic doctrine (and if he didn't I doubt he would have been chosen) but at the same time within those restrictions he is talking as a religious authority about many topics that used to be verboten. And with dialog and discussion, acceptance and tolerance follows.

 

[AGBF]

There has also been abuse perpetrated by individuals who claim to be every other religion. People commit acts of abuse. Religions do not.

It may be more correct to say that an individual committed a specific act of child abuse, but I do not think it is wildly inappropriate to say that a religion committed abuse. Indeed, I feel that the Catholic Church has abused many groups over its long history. Of course, so have other religions, as you say. Religions are, in my opinion, the cause of much abuse. Having taught western civilization, I have taught that the Roman Catholics tortured and burned at the stake the Protestants; that the Protestants (Lutherans and members of the Church of England) burned at the stake the Roman Catholics; and that the Lutherans burned at the stake the Calvinists (the people who were to become members of our Congregational Churches here in the United States).

I do not oppose religion. I just oppose ignorance.

AGBF

 

[missy]

There has also been abuse perpetrated by individuals who claim to be every other religion. People commit acts of abuse. Religions do not.

It may be more correct to say that an individual committed a specific act of child abuse, but I do not think it is wildly inappropriate to say that a religion committed abuse. Indeed, I feel that the Catholic Church has abused many groups over its long history. Of course, so have other religions, as you say. Religions are, in my opinion, the cause of much abuse. Having taught western civilization, I have taught that the Roman Catholics tortured and burned at the stake the Protestants; that the Protestants (Lutherans and members of the Church of England) burned at the stake the Roman Catholics; and that the Lutherans burned at the stake the Calvinists (the people who were to become members of our Congregational Churches here in the United States).

I do not oppose religion. I just oppose ignorance.

AGBF

I completely agree Deb. Thank you for your articulate post.

 

[JaneSmith]

This pope is very good at looking good. He is the most PR savvy pope yet, always with an eye on the optics. He couches his bigotry in slick language and sandwiches it between a message of love, tolerance and acceptance.

I am not about to celebrate and laud a person for speaking out against the child abuse and hiding of the perpetrators within his organisation. He is indeed doing the right thing by addressing it, but to have such a fawning reaction to it is setting the bar pretty low.
The pope doesn't like systemic pederasty and child molestation? Wow! He's achieved the level of normal decent human being!

The pope says that women who have an abortion can be welcomed? How nice. Only if they express contrition and apology for their heinous act. What a load. Those women have nothing to be sorry about, they are not damaged and have not done anything more than seek medical care, and to suggest otherwise continues the stigma and shaming of women. The Catholic Church is directly responsible for restricting access to reproductive health care, and people have died because of strict adherence to their dogma.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-woman-dies-after-abortion-refusal
He encourages even the poorest people to have as many children as god wills, which only furthers crushing poverty. Those same poor must tithe their 10%.

Here's the PR machine: the pope says something nice and inclusive about atheists and gets a lot of publicity for it, then the next day the Holy See quietly releases a statement that amounts to 'not!'
http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/vatican-corrects-infallible-pope-atheists-will-still-burn-in-hell-208987111-238183641.html
Love and tolerance for all, but atheists, Hindus, Jews, the wrong kind of Christian, etc, will all burn in a lake of fire. Nice.

During this trip the pope canonized a person described as 'documented as being an extreme and unapologetic abuser of the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Coast.'
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/23/opinions/smith-junipero-serra-no-saint/

He made an unscheduled stop to the Little Sisters of the Poor who are suing the Obama administration because the ACA requires them to have birth control coverage as part of their health insurance, even though all they need to do is sign a waiver form. They are arguing that this is an undue burden on their religious freedom. Pope Francis supports this, but didn't want the world media to really know about it so it wasn't on the official itinerary and was only quietly disclosed afterwards. The optics aware pope.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/09/23/meeting-nuns-pope-francis-makes-quiet-protest-obamacare/72715678/

It is clearly Fancis' MO to say one thing publicly and do another privately. Anyone who thinks positively of this head of state is either for the oppression of women and gays, or has been taken in by glib marketing.
I'm not surprised in the slightest that he visited someone who opposes gay marriage. He does too.

 

[Ella]

If you would like to keep this thread active do not criticize a religion or the church, keep it a discussion of people or current events.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

If this story is true, than this pope is off my list.

I am 62 years old. I was raised by Catholics, went to Catholic schools and went to mass 6 days each week for the first 18 years of my life.

I am married to a former seminarian and a still practicing Catholic.My point is that I have had a ringside seat.

I tried for years to reconcile myself to their teachings, but when it became clear that they condoned sexual abuse of children I cut all ties. The pope didn't know about it? I don't believe that.

I have been amused by the media's love affair with this new pope. After you scratch the surface he is the same as the hundreds before him.He opposes contraception, abortion, same sex marriage and the ordination of women. He supports Kim Davis as a conscientious objector. He seems like a nice man personally, but he does not support reform. Do not be sucked in.

Lulu, you've seen a lot of popes come and go, so I took your post seriously. You're right.

Meet the new pope, same as the old pope.

Sadly I have to agree now. I had high hopes for Pope Francis. I thought he was different. I thought we were seeing a wiser and kinder Catholic church. Now I realize it *is* the same old same old. Meeting with Kim Davis was very poor judgement and a very bad move. I thought this Pope was more thoughtful but actions speak louder than words. You can dress a pig up with lipstick and it is still a pig. No offense to all the sweet adorable and smart pigs out there.

Precisely.

 

[kenny]

My take on this is, it's ALL good!

This man meeting with Davis makes top headlines around the world.
The world reacts.
The world discusses.
Discussion is the friend of every inherently good cause, while fear, ignorance, intimidation and silence is the enemy.

It reminds me of that church that pickets funerals of US servicepersons with GOD HATES FAGS signs.
I want to thank them because nothing could do more FOR our cause!!!.
I feel similarly about this man meeting with Davis!

It warms my heart to see the US, and the world, limping towards equality.
I heard even Putin has agreed to meet with Elton John to discuss homophobia in Russia.

Religions have been adjusting (though kicking and screaming) to scientific and social advancement for as long as they have existed.

Am I worried that this man met with Davis?
Not a bit.
Quite the contrary.
The resulting press and water-cooler discussions are good for the cause of equality.
Those who oppose equality are increasingly seen as on-the-fringe.
They grow less and less relevant every day as the US Supreme Court rules against them and the old farts die off and are replaced with fresh young minds.

Equality is such a powerful and inherently moral idea that even these ancient, massive, entrenched and powerful organizations are losing this war.

 

[lulu]

Actually the "It's not necessary to believe in God" quote that's been going around on Facebook is false.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/popeatheist.asp

 

[momhappy]

^Thanks for sharing that - I love Snopes

 

[diamondseeker2006]

^Thanks for sharing that - I love Snopes

+1

There is so much false stuff out there, that it is hard to know the truth of anything. i have to look at about 5 different news sources to piece together the truth.

I am not Catholic. I do admire this man for being kind and forgiving and loving towards all....Even people other people do not like. The One he follows in his religion was a lot like that. Just sayin.

 

[JaneSmith]

**edited by moderator. Keep religious attacks OFF the forum, last warning**

 

[purplesparklies]

Whoa. That is NOT what Catholics believe.

 

[MollyMalone]

I would not assume that the Pope's encounter with Kim Davis -- which, even according to her, was nothing more than a "drive-by" -- represents an informed, advance decision on his part. Indeed, I'd be willing to bet she was sprung on him. Even when at the Vatican, the Popes meet a lot of people about whom they are clueless. E.g., when I was a teenager, my Protestant family met the then Pope because my piano teacher's brother, a priest who had recently gone to the Vatican and knew of our European vacation plans, assumed that we would welcome him making the arrangements.

That lack of familiarity with every person brought into their presence is doubtlessly compounded when a Pope is not on their own turf, is being hosted by others & meeting folks at the host's residence or reception office.

Recommend these 2 articles; the Esquire one includes a snappy overview of some of the internal politics, which I have previously heard and read from multiple other sources, I.e., many in the hierarchy view him as an outsider and aren't nearly as devoted to him as one might think (and not just because he is a Jesuit -- gasp -- from South America), The Think Progress piece has interesting background re his history with same sex marriage in Argentina:
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a38440/pope-francis-swindled-kim-davis-meeting/

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/10/01/3707930/why-is-the-vatican-being-so-weird/

 

[packrat]

So, fill me in then, who was the fly on the wall who listened in on the conversation and knows what went on?

Near as I can figure, nobody was, so why does everyone assume he was toasting her and giving her a big high five? Did he flash her the devil's horns and say Yeah dude you totally rocked that shit that is so awesome and you get a free pass to heaven! Or did he give her a pope-ish talking to about respecting our fellow man and not being a jerk?

Maybe it wasn't done in public b/c to put someone on stage w/him to give her a verbal dressing down would be rude and there would be a huge backlash against that. And maybe it wasn't done in public b/c it wasn't any of our beeswax. Maybe the Pope has more tact than that.

 

[momhappy]

They issued a statement this morning about the meeting:

"Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope's characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

"The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/kim-davis-pope/

 

[partgypsy]

Actually the "It's not necessary to believe in God" quote that's been going around on Facebook is false.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/popeatheist.asp

duh, thanks. I usually check Snopes, but someone I knew posted so I didn't check. : (

 

[partgypsy]

They issued a statement this morning about the meeting:

"Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope's characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

"The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/kim-davis-pope/

Apparently the account of the event by Kim Davis's lawyer and the Pope's people differ. According to Kim Davis's lawyer, it was by special invitation, she was asked to change her "hairdo" so she would not be recognized, and they had a private audience where he encouraged and supported her fight. According to the Pope's official he met several dozen people in a room/line, of one whom was Kim Davis. Pope said only had an "audience" (personal/private audience) with one person during this US visit and that was a family friend.

Still since I can't stand her I don't like that he met her at all.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

It is always good to correct a mistake. I read the Popes actual comments, from where the above quotes were supposedly taken from, and found those to be stronger than the above quote. No wonder the Vatican is concerned. Those words sort of leave me breathless. A Catholic Pope who actually believes all individuals have been redeemed.

I agree with Kenny that this is all good. My bus driver talked about the Pope and her Gay grandson.
she says she is getting braver in telling people.

I am not a Catholic or even religious. But I see this Pope as a light.

Annette

 

[JaneSmith]

**edited by moderator. Keep religious attacks OFF the forum, last warning**

My apologies Ella. I was quoting known doctrine and a specific media release from the Holy See.

"The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, spelled it out for the world. People who know about the Catholic Church 'cannot be saved' if they 'refuse to enter her or remain in her,' he said."

When the head of a sovereign state and leader of over one billion people has the position that I am damned to burn, I find it entirely relevant to me personally, especially when that same head of state is getting positive press for being inclusive.

 

[kenny]

Kudos to the Vatican for recognizing that the world's huge and shocked reaction to the meeting means they blew it.

IMO today's backpedaling Vatican announcement means they realize they've lost this battle, and marriage equality has reached critical mass - pun intended.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I went back and re-read the homily of May 2013. I will take the words of the Pope, and not the establishment clean-up interpreter.

The Pope is a smart man and surely knows what he is saying. I see it as no error on his part to include everyone, not just Catholics, which he specifically states. I have never heard or read anything like this before.

Annette

 

[kenny]

Well, this is turning out to be curiouser and curiouser.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/pope-gay-washington/index.html?sr=tw100215popeexclusive0434PMStory&linkId=17553641

(CNN)The day before Pope Francis met anti-gay county clerk Kim Davis in Washington last week, he held a private meeting with a longtime friend from Argentina who has been in a same-sex relationship for 19 years.
Yayo Grassi, an openly gay man, brought his partner, Iwan Bagus, as well several other friends to the Vatican Embassy on September 23 for a brief visit with the Pope. A video of the meeting shows Grassi and Francis greeting each other with a warm hug.

In an exclusive interview with CNN, Grassi declined to disclose details about the short visit, but said it was arranged personally with the Pope via email in the weeks ahead of Francis' highly anticipated visit to the United States.
"Three weeks before the trip, he called me on the phone and said he would love to give me a hug," Grassi said.

The meeting between the Pope and gay couple adds another intriguing twist to the strange aftermath of Francis' first-ever trip to the United States. Since news broke on Tuesday of Francis' meeting with Davis, conservatives have cheered the seemingly implicit endorsement, while liberals have questioned how much the Pope knew about her case.
The two meetings -- one with a gay couple and one with a government official who ardently opposes homosexuality -- has left the Vatican issuing a series of short explanatory statements, seeking to de-politicize the Pope's meetings and agenda.

On Friday afternoon, Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said that Grassi had asked to present his mother and several friends to Francis in Washington.
"As noted in the past, the Pope, as pastor, has maintained many personal relationships with people in a spirit of kindness, welcome and dialogue," Lombardi said.
Earlier on Friday, the Vatican said that the meeting with Davis was not intended as a show of support for her cause and "the only real audience granted by the Pope at the nunciature (embassy) was with one of his former students and his family."

"That was me," Grassi said.
Grassi, who is 67-year-old, added that he is willing to talk about his private moment with the pontiff because he was upset about media coverage of the Pope's meeting with Davis.
"I want to show the truth of who Pope Francis is," he said.

Pope Francis taught Grassi in literature and psychology classes at Inmaculada Concepcion, a Catholic high school in Sante Fe, Argentina, from 1964-1965. Grassi said that he is now an atheist.
Grassi said the Pope has long known that he is gay, but has never condemned his sexuality or his same-sex relationship.
"He has never been judgmental," Grassi said. "He has never said anything negative."

Greeting Bagus with a handshake last Wednesday, Francis says that he recalls meeting him in Rome, where they met in 2014, according to Grassi.
Grassi said that he asked for the meeting in Washington because the friends he brought along have been through difficult times and wanted to receive of a blessing from the pontiff.
At the end the meeting, the Pope hugs both Grassi and Bagus and kisses them on the cheek.

"Obviously he is the pastor of the church and he has to follow the church's teachings," Grassi added. "But as a human being he understands all kinds of situations, and he is open to all kinds of people, including those with different sexual characteristics."
While not changing church teaching, which considers same-sex relationships sinful, Pope Francis has often emphasized mercy over judgment. In 2013, for example, he famously said, "Who am I to judge" gay priests who seek to do God's will. He also reportedly met with a transgender man from Spain in January of this year.

Transgender man: I met with Pope Francis
At the same time, the Vatican has refused to recognize France's ambassador to the Holy See, Laurent Stefanini, who is openly gay. And Francis has show little inclination to adjust church doctrine on sexuality.
"It reminds us, again, that the Pope meets with all sorts of people on his trips and that such meetings are not an 'endorsement' of anything," said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and editor at large at America magazine.
"In this case, for example, he is not endorsing same-sex marriage. But if Mr. Grassi's account is accurate, then it makes me happy to know that the Pope keeps in contact with his old friends, both gay and straight. For friendship and welcome are at the heart of the Christian life."

This October, the Vatican will hold a major meeting, called a synod, to discuss how to minister to gays and lesbians, among other issues facing modern Catholics.

While Grassi describes his relationship to the Pope as very close, they haven't always agreed on same-sex rights.
During Argentina's heated debate over same-sex marriage in 2010, Grassi chastised the Pope for opposing gay rights. At one point, the future pontiff suggested that same-sex marriage is the work of the devil.
"You have been my guide, continuously moving my horizons—you have shaped the most progressive aspects of my worldview," Grassi wrote to the future Pope in an email, according to National Geographic magazine. "And to hear this from you is so disappointing."
Grassi told CNN that Francis -- then Cardinal Jorge Margio Bergoglio -- wrote back, saying that he was sorry to have upset his former student and promising that "homophobia" had no place in the Catholic Church.

Grassi said he believes the Pope was "misled" into meeting with Davis, who served six days in a Kentucky jail for refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.
Davis' lawyers had portrayed the papal meeting as an endorsement of her cause. After several days of questions and culture-war sparring, the Vatican said that was not the case.
"The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis, and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects," Lombardi said in a statement issued Friday morning.

The question of who, exactly, set up the meeting between Davis and the Pope has been the subject of fervid media speculation this week.
Vatican officials have said that such encounters could only have taken place with the planning and approval of the Holy See's nuncio -- or envoy -- to the United States, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò.

 

[ericad]

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/pope-francis-hung-out-privately-with-gay-friends-before-accidentally-shaking-hands-with-kim-davis/

 

[Rockinruby]

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-did-not-unconditional-support-clerk-gay-marriage-094806715.html

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

You all beat me to it. Its a good story, with turns and twists. The pope seems to be walking and following the teachings of Jesus. Finally! This does not mean the church will change much, but at least the head of it is looking good.


Annette