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Leaving your kid at other people''s homes without you.

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TravelingGal

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TGuy and I were having a discussion about this, so I''m curious what your thoughts are.

Our current circle of friends have some parents who have a MUCH more laid back parenting style. Some (actually, only a couple) will smoke in the same area that children are. Those same parents have an older son who when he was a teenager would allow him to go up to his room with a girl and lock the door. I personally can''t imagine letting my kid do that, but that''s just strict ol'' me.

So this led to another conversation about every leaving Amelia there without us. I said that sadly, I was going to be the overprotective parent on this subject. I do believe in letting kids go out and play and have some of the independence that we had as children. But when it comes to leaving her in places where they have kids who are slightly older than they are, I said no. I brought up the point that kids are curious and might touch her in ways that aren''t appropriate. TGuy generally agreed but said I was putting the cart WAAAY before the horse because the kids were still young, and that our friend''s boy was only 5.

Then the next day a very good friend of mine (who isn''t part of our current social circle) called me with the most awful story. She was called to her son''s school (he''s 5 and in Kindergarten) because they found him in the bathroom exposed to another Kindergartner.

At first, she was just trying to be calm because she figured that''s what kids do...they are curious about one another and body parts. She asked her son what happened, and he said the other boy asked to see his pee pee. Then he said the boy told him he wanted to KISS and SUCK it!
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It gets worse. This boy has told her son on more than one occasion that if he doesn''t let him suck his pee pee, he won''t be friends with him and no one else will either. Her poor son...they are at an age where they just want friends and the thought of not having any is really scary! Interesting timing since TGuy and I were talking about this the day before.

She did have a discussion with the child''s mother (who is an acquaintance) and the mother was surprised and said she would have a talk with her son. My friend and her spoke again not long after and the boy''s mother said they had it figured it...the son had picked up the behavior from watching their dogs lick one another.

We all think that''s BS. In fact, my friend consulted a therapist who specializes in this kind of stuff (because my friend was so sad and worried, and figured she''d play it safe). The therapist said it was probably not a traumatic event for my friend''s son since it only happened once, but that she is concerned for the boy who said those things because they aren''t normal for 5 year olds to say unless they have been through some type of experience - usually being molested or being exposed to very graphic materials.

Anyway, I felt bad for my friend, who has a great sense of humor but said she couldn''t talk about this for a week without crying. She said she never dreamed that this would even be an issue for her son at 5 years old!!

I just wonder sometimes what the line is between making your kids live in a bubble and letting them live a fun life. I did not get to sleep over my BFF''s house when I was a kid. I never understood why until later when in hindsight I realized my mother was not comfortable letting her 11 year old daughter spend the night at a house where the mother was a 28 year old single mom and rented 2 rooms in the 3 bedroom apartment to 2 men of similar age.

Do you have a line? If so, where do you draw it?
 
Oh TGal, parenting is hard! I was merrily reading your story thinking 'kids play doctor, what's the harm?' right up to the part about SUCKING. Oh horrible horribleness.

On the overprotectiveness front, I do (at least at this proto-parent stage) think its a little much to rule out houses just because there is an older child there or rule out sleepovers because there is a twentisomething man in the house. Adult man does not equal pedophile or teen-abuser. But... maybe it is justification for getting to know said family with older child a fair bit first, or spend enough time at the house with 20something guys to at least form some impression of them and use judgment about the particular people/family environment involved rather than just ruling them out entirely based on demographics.

My parents were always laissez-faire, and I remember being just shocked and perplexed when I encountered stricter parents with what seemed like bizarre rules. Like my male friend's parents who allowed us to do homework in his room with the door open because the dining room table was unavailable, but were clearly uncomfortable with this and kept coming by to check on us and readjust the door (still open.) Meanwhile kids that wanted to have sex were having sex in the stairwells, in the woods by our school, at lunch in friends houses near school campus, etc. Yes, keep that door open! But don't imagine that that door is the boundary you think it is.
 
Gosh what a crazy and disturbing story (about the little boy at school,etc.)

I actually don''t know if they are one in the same though--meaning being an overprotective parent means your child is less likely to be exposed to these sorts of things--after all that happened at school. You cannot protect against everything but of course we will do our best to try!

I think after 5 I would be ok with letting C play at a friend''s house with parents there if she wanted to. But I might feel differently once the time is here--I''m not really sure if 5 year olds are into that yet! I don''t have problems with sleepovers once the time comes either (I''d imagine this is more once they''re in school). I think my biggest fear is the loss of control and questions over whether the parent in charge would be as attentive as I would! But it''s important to not make your child feel smothered or else they''ll either become depedent or rebel!

But before 5, no I''m not comfortable. But this raises other questions, what about pre-school and in-home daycares (which actually is where I thought this topic was going). I''m looking into in-home daycares now (just looking) and it''s a great concept but then I have that gut feeling of how do I feel leaving my little child at a stranger''s home?? I have a friend who does it (with her 3 month old) and she swears by it which is why I even looked into it.

Anyway, back to that distrubing story you recounted--i would agree the little boy who made the comment needs to be looked into..things are not normal at home in my opinion.
 
Date: 4/21/2010 1:06:59 PM
Author: cara
Oh TGal, parenting is hard! I was merrily reading your story thinking 'kids play doctor, what's the harm?' right up to the part about SUCKING. Oh horrible horribleness.

On the overprotectiveness front, I do (at least at this proto-parent stage) think its a little much to rule out houses just because there is an older child there or rule out sleepovers because there is a twentisomething man in the house. Adult man does not equal pedophile or teen-abuser. But... maybe it is justification for getting to know said family with older child a fair bit, or spend enough time at the house with 20something guys to at least form some impression of them and use judgment about the particular people/family environment involved rather than just ruling them out entirely based on demographics.
True...I also forgot to add that my BFF at the time slept in the same room as her mom and often got kicked to the sofa in the middle of the night when the mother came home and wanted to have sex with her boyfriend. She also smoked a lot in the house. I guess my mother wasn't a fan of this woman's judgment.

ETA, changed to "boyfriend", not girlfriend.
 
Date: 4/21/2010 1:11:08 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Date: 4/21/2010 1:06:59 PM
Author: cara
Oh TGal, parenting is hard! I was merrily reading your story thinking ''kids play doctor, what''s the harm?'' right up to the part about SUCKING. Oh horrible horribleness.

On the overprotectiveness front, I do (at least at this proto-parent stage) think its a little much to rule out houses just because there is an older child there or rule out sleepovers because there is a twentisomething man in the house. Adult man does not equal pedophile or teen-abuser. But... maybe it is justification for getting to know said family with older child a fair bit, or spend enough time at the house with 20something guys to at least form some impression of them and use judgment about the particular people/family environment involved rather than just ruling them out entirely based on demographics.
True...I also forgot to add that my BFF at the time slept in the same room as her mom and often got kicked to the sofa in the middle of the night when the mother came home and wanted to have sex with her boyfriend. She also smoked a lot in the house. I guess my mother wasn''t a fan of this woman''s judgment.
OK, so THAT is completely understandable to me. Sexiling your daughter on a regular basis puts that woman in a different parenting category.
 
Tgal,

I plan to spend a lot of time explaining to DD what is and what is not appropriate and making sure she knows that she can always come to me or DH if she feels uncomfortable and that she will never get in trouble for doing so. Once I am comfortable that she is old enough to understand these things I have taught her, I will allow her to stay at someone else''s home without me provided that I have met them and don''t have any reason not to trust them. Of course, there are certain people that I would leave her with today, but these are family members or friends that I have known for decades and trust completely (and I know everyone in their household). I believe in being a careful, but not overprotective parent (although probably easier said than done). It is a scary world, but we can''t put our kids in a bubble. There is some risk inherent in everything, but I plan to try to minimize the risks while still allowing her to have a fun childhood. I am also a big believer in following your gut - if I get a bad feeling about something, I won''t let her do it, even if I don''t have a good reason for my feelings.
 
TGal, my heart fell into my stomach as I read your post. I am simply speechless. I can't even imagine what I'd do in that situation and believe it or not, I haven't even given any thought to the future and if I would allow my daughters to go to others' houses without me. I guess it's something I need to start thinking about, especially with 2 girls. I don't remember my parents ever having any problem with letting me and my sister go to our friends' houses for sleepover, etc. but we were all really good kids (meaning nothing bad ever happened). I'm just still shell shocked after reading this story--the fact that it happened at school is probably the most disturbing part. I don't see myself being an overprotective parent but I guess I have to start facing the realities that exist in this world. I don't think I'm naive but maybe I am when it comes to children. Ugh. I gotta think about this.
 
That story made me sick to my stomach
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The scariest/upsetting part of that story for me is that he fell into peer pressure at such a young age. I didn''t realize that even at the young age of 5, there is a need to be accepted by all of your friends.

Which leads me to think how hard it must be to explain to someone that young what inappropriate means and have that conversation actually stick. You can tell them that no one should see or touch your private areas and if they want to, you should ask mom/dad first (or something along those lines) BUT kids are really, really impressionable. What if her son does realize that an adult can''t do these things but figured it must be ok because his friend is doing the same thing? If that makes sense. Are they old enough to analyze in that way?

And even if you follow all the "right" steps, that doesn''t mean things will go the "right" way because all children are different. My mom taught me that no one was allowed to make me feel uncomfortable and always told me to go to them if something didn''t seem right. I never forgot that and whenever I was put in an uncomfortable situation, I always ran to my mom to tell her. She taught my brothers the same exact thing, one of them was always open with my mom about everything the other was not. Same message, different results.

This is sort of off topic but it also takes me back to the story about the girl that commited suicide after being bullied. I think everyone has an idea of what to do/say if your child is a bully and if it doesn''t work, take them to therapy to get to the root cause. But what do you say/do when your child is the victim? In an ideal world everyone would identify the bullies and do something about it, including the parents of the bullies but in most cases no one does anything. The parents are either too busy to notice what their child is doing or don''t care. The school system is full of issues and don''t have time. You can''t control the actions of everyone else. So what do you do? Take your kid out of the school? Is that too extreme?

Anyway, I wasn''t allowed to sleep over anyone''s house unless it was family AND the mother was going to be there. My dad would not let me stay over if only my uncles were there and these were his brothers. I was only ever allowed to go to one sleep over and before I was allowed to stay, my dad grilled the mother of my friend. I probably won''t allow Sophia to attend sleepovers until she''s much older.
 
But is age 5 a bit early to have those discussions (about specifics of what's appropriate)? I really don't know since I have no exposure to 5 year olds! I agree it's flat out scary the realities of our world today and how early we have to start worrying (
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) but on the other hand we have to have some trust and allow our kids some freedoms (when they are older). A sleepover at a girl's house while parents are there seems harmless to me, but maybe I'm also naive. You don't want to inject constant suspicion and fear into your child's life either.

I guess it's a balance. Keeping your child aware and give the tools to get out of a situation (of which there are many potential ones). Be aware of your surroundings..the schools, neighbors, background of the kids around you, family situations, making sure there are multiple guardians around when at a friend's house,etc. But you can't try to protect against every potential worst case situation or always assume the worst--because if you did, you then become that helicopter paranoid parent. It's hard, that's for sure.

I guess b/c my sister was so much younger (over 10yrs) I feel like I went through this a bit. I was super protective. All the way through college. It was so hard to let go but I did realize that trusting her judgement and equpping her with the tools rather than being there 100% of the time was part of the "parenting/big sister" role as well. That's years down the line but can still apply a bit earlier on in the game as well.
 
I think it''s pretty natural for kids to be curious and explore, but the suck and kiss stuff leads me to think that child is being molested or is seeing something very inappropriate.

What always bothered me about these normal exploration cases in custody situations was when a parent would freak a kid out about it being "BAD". Two five year old looking at each other''s pee pees are not sexual predators.
 
I wonder if possibly the little boy saw his parents umm kissing and/or sucking and that's where the natural curiousity kicked in? I used to watch my mom's soap operas with her, and got in trouble at school at age 9 for telling a boy I liked I was pregnant with his child. When my parents asked me why I would say something like that I said it was because on TV that is what the women did when they liked a guy. I didn't even really know what being pregnant meant just that the guy usually ended up with her after that. LOL!

Your poor friend having to deal with that and at AGE 5!! It's just so sad that the ages get younger and younger when parents have to deal with trying to teach their kids about the birds and the bees. And if you don't...what happens? We've all heard the stories about kids having sex younger and younger and 'doing other things' that are sexual even earlier.

ETA..totally agree with Lulu that when dealing with stuff like that to be careful re: something being Bad, it can really mess with the kid's mind. Curiousity is natural and so is exploration and testing the waters. How parents respond is extremely important.
 
When I was 5 I had heard of sex, but I thought it was when two adults rolled on top of each other. So me and my (girl) friends would roll over each other when we played house.
When I was 7, my 9-year-old boy cousin would force me and all the other cousins to watch ****. My grandmother lived above my aunt and uncle, so when all the adults were upstairs having a holiday meal, we''d be downstairs watching the **** that my cousin had found (in my uncle''s closet). Maybe the boy in question has an older cousin like mine. I would think it was completely innocent, but the "suck" and "kiss" talk is just a little too specific.
 
Date: 4/21/2010 3:28:37 PM
Author: Mara
I wonder if possibly the little boy saw his parents umm kissing and/or sucking and that''s where the natural curiousity kicked in? I used to watch my mom''s soap operas with her, and got in trouble at school at age 9 for telling a boy I liked I was pregnant with his child. When my parents asked me why I would say something like that I said it was because on TV that is what the women did when they liked a guy. I didn''t even really know what being pregnant meant just that the guy usually ended up with her after that. LOL!

Your poor friend having to deal with that and at AGE 5!! It''s just so sad that the ages get younger and younger when parents have to deal with trying to teach their kids about the birds and the bees. And if you don''t...what happens? We''ve all heard the stories about kids having sex younger and younger and ''doing other things'' that are sexual even earlier.

ETA..totally agree with Lulu that when dealing with stuff like that to be careful re: something being Bad, it can really mess with the kid''s mind. Curiousity is natural and so is exploration and testing the waters. How parents respond is extremely important.
How sad about that little boy. It makes me think that he was exposed to inappropriate behavior or materials.

Mara''s highlighted bit is hilarious. It also goes to show that kids are mostly innocent and cacn easily take adult content out of context. I hope that was the case with the little boy mentioned above ...

Regarding being overprotective, my parents never let me sleep over friends'' houses as a child. As immigrants, it wasn''t done in their culture, but even though they were familiar with the American custom, they weren''t comfortable with it. I remember being around 8 and asking my parents why I couldn''t sleep over my girlfriend''s house - they told me that if there was a fire, the other parents would rush to save their own children but not me. Later, as an adult, they admitted that they were also afraid that I would be molested. Not because they thought any of the dads were creepy or anything, but just because you never really know anyone ...

With my own son, I have a good friend with a son the same age, but I really think that she''s a neglectful parent, so I would not feel comfortable leaving my son with her. However, she is very generous, and is always offering to babysit DS, but there is no way that I would feel safe leaving my kid alone at her house, knowing that she doesn''t supervise her own kids (who are 10, 3 and 6 months old). Whenever we socialize, I have to keep an extra close eye on my kid, because I''m always worried about what he will encounter over there ...
 
I agree that two kids exploring is in the realm of normal, so I''m preparing myself for that (my BFF''s daughter was touching herself a LOT by the age of 5ish) but threats for not complying with kissing/sucking is what threw me and my friend.

And yes, the age does seem to be getting younger, but maybe that''s my skewed mother/old fashioned perception.
 
Wow - this thread is really eye-opening. Baby still on the way, so it hasn''t come up yet, but it never occurred to me that people would be afraid to let their kid go for a playdate or sleepover for fear of molestation! I (and my siblings) routinely had friends sleep over/over to play and did likewise. I agree with whoever above mentioned the importance of trusting your gut -- certainly if you get a bad vibe, that might be a reason to invite the other child over rather than have yours go to their place. But wow -- it''s interesting to me how many families do limit playdates/sleepovers based on this fear. I expect I will be more concerned about my kiddo being around a swimming pool, a dog with biting tendencies, near a busy road, etc. at a friend''s house, more of those types of things. Very interesting.
 
I''m not excited about the whole sleepover thing, or letting my child play in another family''s house without me there.

I''ve worked in child protection services for too long to be positive about it. Some examples of how children have come to harm during sleepovers etc: adult sex offenders who are relatives / friends of other kids'' parents and visit their homes; children who have been sexually or emotionally abused acting out similar behaviour with their peers; familes who have friends with aggressive dogs visiting them; families who are too stupid to understand that you need to leave the batteries in the smoke alarm if you want advance warning of a housefire; families who drive cars that should never be on the road and decide to go to X place and take your child with them in the absence of a car seat...

I could go on but you get the picture.

I have no real idea how I''m going to protect DD from these things, other than know all of her friends very well and get a feel for how their parents parent. I hate thinking about this, it''s scary.
 
WOW, WOW, WOW! what a sad story. my heart goes out to that family.

Like TG and Vesper, i grew up in an old-school/immigrant household. I was NEVER allowed to attend slumber parties and sleepovers. Of course I never understood why.

I''m on the verge of mommyhood, and can''t even begin to wrap my head around this issue. As a poster noted above, it''s a balance.
 
Oh my goodness! I can''t imagine being in that situation, and can''t imagine what the little boy thinks now either.

Neither of the kids have ever spent the night elsewhere besides at my parents house. They''ve played at my bff''s or Aunt/Uncle''s house w/out me there a couple times. London has had a couple play dates at a friends house, but I''ve know the girls parents for a long time and I''m very comfortable with them and their parenting. She did play at one girls house over the summer a couple times and I was uncomfortable with it afterwards when she said she and the girl walked over to another girls house down the street but the other girl wasn''t home. She''s had a play date at another girls house, but the mom and I went to school together from Kindergarten until we graduated so I''m really comfortable with them as well.

I do wonder at times b/c I''ve said things like "Now be good for Mrs. Teacher and do what she says" Or "Be good for X''s mommy and daddy and do what they say" and I think oh crap I don''t want her to think that, well, *what if* something inappropriate were to happen and all she''s thinking is "Mommy said to do whatever they tell me to do" you know??

I don''t recall how old my brother and I were before we were allowed to spend the night at friends houses. I want to say middle school? And it was rare that we did even then.

It''s hard to wrap your mind around something happening, or *almost* happening, like w/the little boy. I had an incident in high school and I was not equipped to handle it. I was 16. I can''t comprehend being 5, or even 10! The thought of something happening to my kids makes my stomach turn.
 
It is fairly likely that that little boy is being (or has been) sexually abused. Tgal if I were you, I would call my friend back and strongly suggest that she anonymously report this information to Child Protective Services. We each have a responsibility to ensure the safety of all the children we know and encounter and this is a huge red flag for me.

I''m not a parent so I don''t have any other advice/suggestions but this little boy probably did not pick up that sort of language/behaviour from observing his pet dogs. Very sad.
 
That little boy was most likely molested. No kid that age says you got kiss it, or suck it... That comes from sexual abuse. I pray someone steps up and can be an advocate for that kid.
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TGal, I was very protective of my kids, mainly cause I didn''t have much supervision and was abused myself.

You go with your gut. If being a momma bear is working for you?? Have at it... I think a Mom''s intuition is key. I always listen to mine.



With my kids, yes was super strict. And hubby was just as protective. We eased up a bit as time went on, and they showed us they were to be trusted.

But you have a LO, so keep as you are... I LOVE your parenting style. You and TGuy are doing a fabulous job.

One thing about this generation, is they have cell phones. If something happens and they feel uncomfortable they can call you. I know you are not going to give a first grader a cell phone.. But as they get older and have sleep overs at someone''s house and things aren''t cool, they can call you to have you come and pick them up... Or text....
Technology does have it''s advantages...
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As someone who wound up in uncomfortable situations, I''d like to add a little from my experiences. (I''m not a parent)

My mother wasn''t exactly over-protective (even though she turned over-protective later...). I had sleepovers from as early as 2nd grade.
One of the big problems was with my cousins -- since they were family, it was never questioned. These would be mixed (boy & girl) often and pretty regularly something like 10-20 kids with very little supervision and the smaller sleepovers often led to visiting "friends" of the parents that were even less responsible.
Other of my "friends" were problems too. (One all girl sleepover in middle school led to me calling home in the middle of the night "sick" because the other girls were going to sneak out of the house to meet some older boys and light a bonfire)


Anyway, my point is to be careful & trust your instincts. Certainly know the parents but also TRUST YOUR KIDS.
I wound up in these situations most of the time because my mom liked the kid and the kid asked her and she thought I''d have a nice time -- I DIDN''T want to go.

What I wished when I was younger was that she would say "I''ll have to think about it. I''ll call and talk to your parents in a bit." and then talk to me ALONE -- not in front of the other kid -- and give me a chance to say I wasn''t comfortable.
Once she said yes, I felt that I couldn''t back out and when she answered "It''s fine with me if TooPatient wants to" I felt stuck.


Thinking back on some of those times makes me really thankful that nothing (worse) happened.


Sorry this was such a ramble. I just wanted to share a little from the other perspective.

Good luck to all of you -- it sounds like you are all very responsible and going to raise some great kids.
 
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