Let the controvery begin!

[luckystar112]

Date: 12/14/2008 5:25:37 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 12/14/2008 4:52:33 PM
Author: FrekeChild
You know what I find disturbing...is that there are many many American students out there right now that cannot write a paper. They are being pushed through the school systems, awarded As, Bs and Cs, graduating from high school, and they don''t know what a verb is. Or a noun, or an adjective. And they have passed high school.

How is this possible? (<--rhetorical)

Easy answer, four words: No Child Left Behind.

That is partly true but nowhere NEAR the be all, end all of it. I''m disappointed that you would wrap up the problems with the institution of education with that one thing. I do not mean that in a derogatory or mean-spirited way. But blaming all the problems with the school system on George Bush is just...not accurate.

 

[swimmer]

Date: 12/14/2008 7:57:43 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 12/14/2008 5:25:37 PM

Author: Haven

Date: 12/14/2008 4:52:33 PM

Author: FrekeChild

You know what I find disturbing...is that there are many many American students out there right now that cannot write a paper. They are being pushed through the school systems, awarded As, Bs and Cs, graduating from high school, and they don''t know what a verb is. Or a noun, or an adjective. And they have passed high school.


How is this possible? (<--rhetorical)

Easy answer, four words: No Child Left Behind.

That is partly true but nowhere NEAR the be all, end all of it. I''m disappointed that you would wrap up the problems with the institution of education with that one thing. I do not mean that in a derogatory or mean-spirited way. But blaming all the problems with the school system on George Bush is just...not accurate.

tiptoeing aside from the anti-whateverness...

Haven does have a decent point here. My district used to have fairly high standards...but now we aim much lower, towards the "state standards" which are a list of randomly selected facts that need to be memorized with no attempt towards measuring real skills like synthesizing information, writing, or critical thinking. The movement away from the dreaded but important "term paper" has come with an emphasis upon standardized tests. We now focus a huge percent of funds and efforts on the lowest performing students. A really interesting thing is that when surveyed, most people think that their local schools are excellent, but that on a national level schools are terrible. This trend has been found nation-wide.

 

[luckystar112]

I agree that Haven does have a point, but I thought that as a school teacher, the answer would be more thought out and inclusive of all problems, such as......underpaid teachers, underfunded schools, lack of parental involvement, BAD teachers, lowered standards (which can not be totally attributed to NCLB), lack of authority in the classroom, etc.
These problems have been around before President Bush and will more than likely continue after him. I think that NCLB has proven to be more of a problem than a solution, but this lack of preparation is evident even in college. I see a lot of leniancy (sp?) with the students who do a poor job, getting A''s for effort instead of a "true" grade. A fellow classmate was just telling me about how his strategy is to do poor on his first paper so that he can be average on the second paper and get an A just for "improving". This is college. So, I think it is a mixture of a LOT of different things.

Haven, I''m sorry if you thought I was picking on you or something, but I just wanted to throw out that opinion out. I DO think you are right, I just disagree that there is a simple answer.

 

[miraclesrule]

I have mixed feelings about grades after listening to Marshall Rosenberg''s CD''s on non-violent communication. In his first teaching job he refused to give grades. It''s a interesting concept and story. I don''t remember it now because it has been a long time since I have listened to it. He has a lot of books for teachers and parents that foster a learning environment in spite of the current challenges of our educational system.

One story I do recall had to do with a young student who had gotten a math problem wrong on a test or exercise and Mr. Rosenberg was sitting in on a class. The teacher had marked the problem wrong as is usual and the young boy was extremely upset at himself. He was chastising himself and became very upset about his grade. Marshall approached the young boy and asked him why he was so upset and he told him he was mad because he was wrong. I don''t recall exactly how the exchange went down, but I recall that Marshall was demonstrating a different technique for teachers than having the child be "wrong".

He approached the boy and looked at the math problem and said to him "When I do that exercise, I come up with a different answer. Can you show me how you came up with your answer?" I recall it being such a dynamic difference in exploring how a child came up with a different answer, than simply telling them they were wrong and telling them what they did wrong.

Oh well, I didn''t even read the article so I don''t know what prompted the discussion. I can deduce it''s contents from the posts that followed it. There are so many types of education. I don''t see a degree as a symbol of intelligence. In fact, many times I have found far more intelligent people that did not have a formal education. However, the opposite exists as well. I do worry that our youth is more concerned with the form and not the content. Having said that, I sure wouldn''t have passed on a college education if I had been given the opportunity to do so. It just wasn''t even a consideration in our family.

I think that formal education can really enhance an alrighty bright person. However, if a person isn''t very bright to begin with, all the education in the world won''t help them if they don''t know how to apply the knowledge appropriately.

 

[Haven]

lucky--I didn't think you were picking on me, I value your opinion, and often find myself agreeing with you.

I suppose I should have elaborated a bit. NCLB mandates standards, and then measures whether schools meet these standards based on standardized test scores. Then, if schools do not meet standards for a certain amount of years, they either lose funding or control over their own curricula. The kicker here is that this type of system forces schools to teach to a test if they want to be considered successful. IF a school is going to teach to a test, then that test better be darn good. Herein lies the problem. Multiple-choice tests cannot really test a student's analytical skills, writing skills, etc. They only test how well a student can take a test. Period. (Example: I am an extremely good test-taker, and I've historically done very well on standardized tests. I earned a 32 on my ACT, a 175 on my LSAT, yet I did not study for either. What I did do was attend a blue ribbon high school that taught us how to take tests.)

Personally, I believe that this particular policy is driving the current enormous decline in the quality of our nation's schools. I believe that this is the primary reason that our students are becoming less and less able to think for themselves, to write analytically (if at all), to synthesize information and draw new conclusions, et cetera. Is this the first policy that dramatically affected the quality of public education? No. But it is the policy under which our public schools are currently serving, and therefore I believe that it is the primary reason why students are graduating, yet remain wholly uneducated.

I do think parental involvement, bad teachers, low standards for teachers entering the profession, tenure, underfunded schools, and underpaid teachers all contribute to the problem, but I don't think any of these things are nearly as detrimental as NCLB. You could have the greatest, most inspiring teachers in the nation with every resource they could want at their fingertips, but if they are forced to teach a sub-par curriculum that churns out test-taking automatons rather than thoughtful, brilliant individuals, then we will still see high school graduates who cannot write their way out of a paper bag.

So, I suppose I still stand by my original response, and I am still not at all offended by yours. I know that it might seem like a political response, but really, if you were in the trenches and you saw how stifling the policy really is to education, I think you might even agree with me.

ETA: FYI--I am a reading specialist in a public high school. I run a reading lab for freshmen who read below grade level for part of my day, and I teach English for the other part of my day. I work with the honors students, and I work with the students who are so far below grade level they require an incredible amount of academic services just to make it through each day. Prior to teaching high school I taught strategic reading and writing at a community college, I worked with college students who did not pass the basic entrance exams to place into freshman level reading and writing. My opinions are based solely on my own professional experience. And for what it's worth, my daily agenda in my lit classes is the same every single day:
- Read.
- Write.
- Think for yourself.
- Be. Brilliant.
And that's exactly what we do.

 

[swimmer]

Lucky, you are correct, there is no simple answer for the enormous problems in the educational system. But for those of us floundering under this new layer of obfuscatory legislation, we just want to get back to teaching, not filling in little ovals. I wish that there was space on PS to begin to tackle this vast issue, but every school is going to have a thousand things being done wrong and a thousand little miraculous successes. Teachers are fleeing, good teachers, because of the funding cuts and the assumption that schools are factories, with children being little cogs or widgets that can all be handled in the same manner. NCLB was designed by people who didn't even raise their own children. Enough said.

I'm a big fan of parents who feed and care for their kids. It is even better when kids are fed something other than sugar for breakfast, are taught that lying, stealing, and hitting for whatever reason are wrong, and that loving reading for the pure joy of it is something to strive towards. It is very very rare to find that kid, so those of you struggling to make it possible, teachers everywhere applaud you!

Just to clarify in case my previous post is misconstrued, every dime that goes towards students with special needs, so that their lives can be richer and more productive, is very well spent.

Miracles, if I didn't give grades I would be fired. Most teachers are in that spot. Personally, if I find a writing assignment is not acceptable, it must be re-written until the student displays their thought process and uses standard English. Sometimes that takes 7 re-writes, this sort of process is not possible in some schools...we all have to strike our own chords...

ETA: writing while Haven posted. Well put Haven!

 

[Haven]

Swimmer--Your post gave me goosebumps. Thank you.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 12/14/2008 9:28:43 PM
Author: Haven
lucky--I didn''t think you were picking on me, I value your opinion, and often find myself agreeing with you.


I suppose I should have elaborated a bit. NCLB mandates standards, and then measures whether schools meet these standards based on standardized test scores. Then, if schools do not meet standards for a certain amount of years, they either lose funding or control over their own curricula. The kicker here is that this type of system forces schools to teach to a test if they want to be considered successful. IF a school is going to teach to a test, then that test better be darn good. Herein lies the problem. Multiple-choice tests cannot really test a student''s analytical skills, writing skills, etc. They only test how well a student can take a test. Period. (Example: I am an extremely good test-taker, and I''ve historically done very well on standardized tests. I earned a 32 on my ACT, a 175 on my LSAT, yet I did not study for either. What I did do was attend a blue ribbon high school that taught us how to take tests.)


Personally, I believe that this particular policy is driving the current enormous decline in the quality of our nation''s schools. I believe that this is the primary reason that our students are becoming less and less able to think for themselves, to write analytically (if at all), to synthesize information and draw new conclusions, et cetera. Is this the first policy that dramatically affected the quality of public education? No. But it is the policy under which our public schools are currently serving, and therefore I believe that it is the primary reason why students are graduating, yet remain wholly uneducated.


I do think parental involvement, bad teachers, low standards for teachers entering the profession, tenure, underfunded schools, and underpaid teachers all contribute to the problem, but I don''t think any of these things are nearly as detrimental as NCLB. You could have the greatest, most inspiring teachers in the nation with every resource they could want at their fingertips, but if they are forced to teach a sub-par curriculum that churns out test-taking automatons rather than thoughtful, brilliant individuals, then we will still see high school graduates who cannot write their way out of a paper bag.


So, I suppose I still stand by my original response, and I am still not at all offended by yours. I know that it might seem like a political response, but really, if you were in the trenches and you saw how stifling the policy really is to education, I think you might even agree with me.


ETA: FYI--I am a reading specialist in a public high school. I run a reading lab for freshmen who read below grade level for part of my day, and I teach English for the other part of my day. I work with the honors students, and I work with the students who are so far below grade level they require an incredible amount of academic services just to make it through each day. Prior to teaching high school I taught strategic reading and writing at a community college, I worked with college students who did not pass the basic entrance exams to place into freshman level reading and writing. My opinions are based solely on my own professional experience. And for what it''s worth, my daily agenda in my lit classes is the same every single day:

- Read.

- Write.

- Think for yourself.

- Be. Brilliant.

And that''s exactly what we do.

Awesome post!

 

[risingsun]

Well said, Haven and swimmer

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/14/2008 9:28:43 PM
Author: Haven
lucky--I didn''t think you were picking on me, I value your opinion, and often find myself agreeing with you.

I suppose I should have elaborated a bit. NCLB mandates standards, and then measures whether schools meet these standards based on standardized test scores. Then, if schools do not meet standards for a certain amount of years, they either lose funding or control over their own curricula. The kicker here is that this type of system forces schools to teach to a test if they want to be considered successful. IF a school is going to teach to a test, then that test better be darn good. Herein lies the problem. Multiple-choice tests cannot really test a student''s analytical skills, writing skills, etc. They only test how well a student can take a test. Period. (Example: I am an extremely good test-taker, and I''ve historically done very well on standardized tests. I earned a 32 on my ACT, a 175 on my LSAT, yet I did not study for either. What I did do was attend a blue ribbon high school that taught us how to take tests.)

Personally, I believe that this particular policy is driving the current enormous decline in the quality of our nation''s schools. I believe that this is the primary reason that our students are becoming less and less able to think for themselves, to write analytically (if at all), to synthesize information and draw new conclusions, et cetera. Is this the first policy that dramatically affected the quality of public education? No. But it is the policy under which our public schools are currently serving, and therefore I believe that it is the primary reason why students are graduating, yet remain wholly uneducated.

I do think parental involvement, bad teachers, low standards for teachers entering the profession, tenure, underfunded schools, and underpaid teachers all contribute to the problem, but I don''t think any of these things are nearly as detrimental as NCLB. You could have the greatest, most inspiring teachers in the nation with every resource they could want at their fingertips, but if they are forced to teach a sub-par curriculum that churns out test-taking automatons rather than thoughtful, brilliant individuals, then we will still see high school graduates who cannot write their way out of a paper bag.

So, I suppose I still stand by my original response, and I am still not at all offended by yours. I know that it might seem like a political response, but really, if you were in the trenches and you saw how stifling the policy really is to education, I think you might even agree with me.

ETA: FYI--I am a reading specialist in a public high school. I run a reading lab for freshmen who read below grade level for part of my day, and I teach English for the other part of my day. I work with the honors students, and I work with the students who are so far below grade level they require an incredible amount of academic services just to make it through each day. Prior to teaching high school I taught strategic reading and writing at a community college, I worked with college students who did not pass the basic entrance exams to place into freshman level reading and writing. My opinions are based solely on my own professional experience. And for what it''s worth, my daily agenda in my lit classes is the same every single day:
- Read.
- Write.
- Think for yourself.
- Be. Brilliant.
And that''s exactly what we do.

Husband disagrees. True to a degree but.... the biggest problem in the national discourse about public education is there is no consensus on just what exactly it is we are supposed to be producing. College graduates? Good workers? America, unlike every other industrialized country, operates on the national delusion that every child is going to go to college. Folks, it simply ain''t gonna happen. SEVENTEEN percent of our population has a bachelors, and even less than that have an advanced degree. Think about this. WHY are we teaching every child as if they are going to college? Statistics (census stats) don''t bear this out. And those kids ill-suited for college are not served at ALL by this mindset. They come out able to write a bad essay, but with little chance for gainful employment. But the public simply will NOT hear the truth. It''s too painful. No one wants to hear that Little Johnny''s bucket was full in 8th grade, and it''s never going to change, or on the off chance that it does, it won''t be the public school system that does it. It would also behoove those not in the education field to ask WHY the schools pass so many kids on that don''t need to be passed - and why Haven has so many kids who make it to the 9th grade and cannot read. Hint, it isn''t because teachers think these kids are up to snuff. The pressures to pass these kids are enormous, and sometimes they get passed OVER the objections of the teachers. Teachers usually aren''t calling those shots, although they get thrown to the wolves for the end results.

Husband points out that those specialized services, which in essence boil down to TIME and money, are zero sum: those incredible amounts of extra services given to the few, are taken from other students. Most kids, at least around here - I can''t speak to other states, who are special-ed, are not education problems, but socialization problems, (90% of the weapons violation in his district are special ed kids....90%!) and the goal, not ever stated to the public, who would cough up a lung to hear the truth, is simply to keep them out of prison and enable them to function in society at the most minimal level. We pour incredible amounts of time and resources into these kids, with very little return. And yes, he has these very debates with friends who are special ed teachers. He admires them immensely, and understands that for their own sanity, seeing this fact may not be such a good strategy.

As an aside and to give you an idea of an average day, they recently had to expel the kid from Somalia. He was one of several "rescued" by a Catholic organization. Now understand that they won''t let these kids in THEIR schools: too violent, so they dump them into the public school system. Nice. Anyway, this kid, who would have been in the "statistics" had they been unable to get rid of him, had picked up a handy chunk of concrete to bash a girl''s head in. She had dared to talk back to him and women don''t do that in his culture. The kids snatched from Sierra Leone were fun too: they''d seen nothing but violence, and were, not surprisingly, incredibly violent... But hey, the schools are failing US.

Oh, and his school-issued laptop was stolen from his room before school started, and they can''t be bothered (pleas notwithstanding) to get him a new one. But of course, he still has to do all the mandated things on computer. And when he can''t, or doesn''t, they say, "But we sent an EMAIL".

He remains mostly calm, I''M the one who is running around stressing with my hair on fire...

 

[tradergirl]

Yes, again, the typical liberal response. If you can''t argue the point made, just hurl a personal insult.

I thank heavens every day I work in a male dominated industry around men and don''t have to deal with a bunch of clucking hens like you all.

The next four years are going to be a riot. I can tell already.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 12/15/2008 7:36:26 AM
Author: tradergirl
Yes, again, the typical liberal response. If you can''t argue the point made, just hurl a personal insult.


I thank heavens every day I work in a male dominated industry around men and don''t have to deal with a bunch of clucking hens like you all.


The next four years are going to be a riot. I can tell already.

Yeah sure, I mean, it''s not like you have been hurling insults with nearly every post you make.

Cry us a river.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 12/15/2008 9:39:48 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 12/15/2008 7:36:26 AM

Author: tradergirl

Yes, again, the typical liberal response. If you can''t argue the point made, just hurl a personal insult.

I thank heavens every day I work in a male dominated industry around men and don''t have to deal with a bunch of clucking hens like you all.

The next four years are going to be a riot. I can tell already.

Yeah sure, I mean, it''s not like you have been hurling insults with nearly every post you make.

Cry us a river.

Yep, thanks for saying it for me, Moon!

Why bother posting here if you have to deal with all of us clucking hens? Why don''t you go hang out on a boy message board. Maybe you can find one where people care about the fact that you short sell...shorted...short...shorting...shortest...short.

 

[partgypsy]

I have a sneaking suspicion that if the richest and more educated voters voted for McCain, the conversation would have started (and ended more differently). It''s interesting how one set of facts can be read so differently depending on what side the political fence one is on.

 

[partgypsy]

For the record my father has a high school education, and my mother has a masters. They are both very intelligent, and accomplished in their own areas. The level of education they received is more an indication of opportunites afforded during their formative years than a reflection of inherent intelligence. That for one always makes me a little suspicious of those who equate education=intelligence.

I think the term intelligence can be both a loaded and impoverished term, because there are many different kinds of "intelligences" and second there are many other kinds of skills/personality/aptitudes that influence whether a person is happy and successful in life than some raw intelligence quotient. I''ve known a couple people from Mensa who made me think who cares if you have a high iq if you are a failure at being a relatable human being?

On the other hand, why attack education? My father would have loved to get a higher education if it was possible. For many families and cultures higher education is a goal and a value, and the things it promotes, self development, discipline, training for positions that are respected, needed and valued in society, and also a curiosity and interest in the larger world, I don''t see why that has to be disparaged.

 

[swimmer]

Date: 12/15/2008 7:26:54 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 12/14/2008 9:28:43 PM

Author: Haven

lucky--I didn''t think you were picking on me, I value your opinion, and often find myself agreeing with you.


I suppose I should have elaborated a bit. NCLB mandates standards, and then measures whether schools meet these standards based on standardized test scores. Then, if schools do not meet standards for a certain amount of years, they either lose funding or control over their own curricula. The kicker here is that this type of system forces schools to teach to a test if they want to be considered successful. IF a school is going to teach to a test, then that test better be darn good. Herein lies the problem. Multiple-choice tests cannot really test a student''s analytical skills, writing skills, etc. They only test how well a student can take a test. Period. (Example: I am an extremely good test-taker, and I''ve historically done very well on standardized tests. I earned a 32 on my ACT, a 175 on my LSAT, yet I did not study for either. What I did do was attend a blue ribbon high school that taught us how to take tests.)


Personally, I believe that this particular policy is driving the current enormous decline in the quality of our nation''s schools. I believe that this is the primary reason that our students are becoming less and less able to think for themselves, to write analytically (if at all), to synthesize information and draw new conclusions, et cetera. Is this the first policy that dramatically affected the quality of public education? No. But it is the policy under which our public schools are currently serving, and therefore I believe that it is the primary reason why students are graduating, yet remain wholly uneducated.


I do think parental involvement, bad teachers, low standards for teachers entering the profession, tenure, underfunded schools, and underpaid teachers all contribute to the problem, but I don''t think any of these things are nearly as detrimental as NCLB. You could have the greatest, most inspiring teachers in the nation with every resource they could want at their fingertips, but if they are forced to teach a sub-par curriculum that churns out test-taking automatons rather than thoughtful, brilliant individuals, then we will still see high school graduates who cannot write their way out of a paper bag.


So, I suppose I still stand by my original response, and I am still not at all offended by yours. I know that it might seem like a political response, but really, if you were in the trenches and you saw how stifling the policy really is to education, I think you might even agree with me.


ETA: FYI--I am a reading specialist in a public high school. I run a reading lab for freshmen who read below grade level for part of my day, and I teach English for the other part of my day. I work with the honors students, and I work with the students who are so far below grade level they require an incredible amount of academic services just to make it through each day. Prior to teaching high school I taught strategic reading and writing at a community college, I worked with college students who did not pass the basic entrance exams to place into freshman level reading and writing. My opinions are based solely on my own professional experience. And for what it''s worth, my daily agenda in my lit classes is the same every single day:

- Read.

- Write.

- Think for yourself.

- Be. Brilliant.

And that''s exactly what we do.

Husband disagrees. True to a degree but.... the biggest problem in the national discourse about public education is there is no consensus on just what exactly it is we are supposed to be producing. College graduates? Good workers? America, unlike every other industrialized country, operates on the national delusion that every child is going to go to college. Folks, it simply ain''t gonna happen. SEVENTEEN percent of our population has a bachelors, and even less than that have an advanced degree. Think about this. WHY are we teaching every child as if they are going to college? Statistics (census stats) don''t bear this out. And those kids ill-suited for college are not served at ALL by this mindset. They come out able to write a bad essay, but with little chance for gainful employment. But the public simply will NOT hear the truth. It''s too painful. No one wants to hear that Little Johnny''s bucket was full in 8th grade, and it''s never going to change, or on the off chance that it does, it won''t be the public school system that does it. It would also behoove those not in the education field to ask WHY the schools pass so many kids on that don''t need to be passed - and why Haven has so many kids who make it to the 9th grade and cannot read. Hint, it isn''t because teachers think these kids are up to snuff. The pressures to pass these kids are enormous, and sometimes they get passed OVER the objections of the teachers. Teachers usually aren''t calling those shots, although they get thrown to the wolves for the end results.


Husband points out that those specialized services, which in essence boil down to TIME and money, are zero sum: those incredible amounts of extra services given to the few, are taken from other students. Most kids, at least around here - I can''t speak to other states, who are special-ed, are not education problems, but socialization problems, (90% of the weapons violation in his district are special ed kids....90%!) and the goal, not ever stated to the public, who would cough up a lung to hear the truth, is simply to keep them out of prison and enable them to function in society at the most minimal level. We pour incredible amounts of time and resources into these kids, with very little return. And yes, he has these very debates with friends who are special ed teachers. He admires them immensely, and understands that for their own sanity, seeing this fact may not be such a good strategy.


As an aside and to give you an idea of an average day, they recently had to expel the kid from Somalia. He was one of several ''rescued'' by a Catholic organization. Now understand that they won''t let these kids in THEIR schools: too violent, so they dump them into the public school system. Nice. Anyway, this kid, who would have been in the ''statistics'' had they been unable to get rid of him, had picked up a handy chunk of concrete to bash a girl''s head in. She had dared to talk back to him and women don''t do that in his culture. The kids snatched from Sierra Leone were fun too: they''d seen nothing but violence, and were, not surprisingly, incredibly violent... But hey, the schools are failing US.


Oh, and his school-issued laptop was stolen from his room before school started, and they can''t be bothered (pleas notwithstanding) to get him a new one. But of course, he still has to do all the mandated things on computer. And when he can''t, or doesn''t, they say, ''But we sent an EMAIL''.

He remains mostly calm, I''M the one who is running around stressing with my hair on fire...

Just ignoring the random insult (perhaps regarding the first part of this thread?) and getting back to an interesting discussion.

Singer and Haven both have great points, and here is where it gets so problematic and why we don''t have an answer for Lucky. We all teach in different places. Singer''s hubby teaches in a very rough district in a part of the country where education is less of a priority than survival. My district has 98% of kids going to college and we haven''t had a fight in years. Haven seems to be teaching a bit of both ends. So the idea that with a stroke of a pen in DC we can get all students to the same place...it just is not going to happen (even in socialist communities where all parents have the same economic status there are smart kids and kids who have fewer talents). Yes, class and achievement are different and many of us are people who came from nothing to academic success, but statistics are overwhelming and if you are a "bootstrapper" fantastic for you, but don''t think that it is going to happen for everyone -and when you went to college it didn''t cost as much as it does now.

I agree Singer, not every kid is going to college...do you guys have tech schools? Our district has a community tech where kids can get HVaC certification, plumbing, electrician, mechanic, cosmetology, and a few others. Those students do not go to the HS where I am, but to the tech where they take several years of regular classes but mostly do their internships and practicals in order to prepare themselves for the work world.

I just wish that instead of the billions we are spending on tests that evaluate how well fed the little test-takers are, lets give them healthcare and lunch. Or how about after-school reading programs for younger learners so we don''t end up with these dead-eyed kids who don''t feel that education will take them anywhere.

Remember that paying for education is an investment in the people who will be paying into your social security... and of course they will be the doctors, plumbers, electricians, engineers, chefs etc who will make your life easier in the future and for your children.

 

[trillionaire]

I wonder what the correlation is with military bases and installations. That is certainly a different path (though not mutually exclusive) than going to college, but it really positions you very well for a lot of jobs and opportunities. Most of the men in my family (exclusive of this generation) are former military. Some went to college, some did not, but they were all very successful, intelligent ment.

 

[swimmer]

Yes, the military is a great way to get a technical "hands on" education. Now of course the GI bill only covers part of a community college tuition...hopefully this will change for this new group of men and women returning from combat.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 12/14/2008 5:25:37 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 12/14/2008 4:52:33 PM
Author: FrekeChild
You know what I find disturbing...is that there are many many American students out there right now that cannot write a paper. They are being pushed through the school systems, awarded As, Bs and Cs, graduating from high school, and they don''t know what a verb is. Or a noun, or an adjective. And they have passed high school.

How is this possible? (<--rhetorical)

Easy answer, four words: No Child Left Behind.

And all the silly-assed educational initiatives prior to that one.

We treat kids with no personal respect, they in turn have no respect for themselves or others. We don''t expect discipline or responsibility from them, and they act accordingly.

We give awards to everyone, regardless of their level of achievment. We want to make them feel good. We drug kids with Ritalin instead of applying some discipline to their lives. We separate the children with learning difficulties, making them feel less a part of the school dynamic, because that''s easier for the school.

And no, I''m not talking out of my hat. My mother, father, grandmother, aunts, etc. were all teachers and retired as such. I went to college seeking a teaching degree. My father spent 30+ years teaching, most of it with the developmentally disabled. He had five degrees after his name, and certainly knew his craft. He was apalled at the changes in teaching, and the direction of the public school system, and the calloused disregard of the students themselves by the school districts, as well as the sheer ridiculousness of most parents. I suspect many teachers feel exactly the same way, if they have spent enough time in education to have seen the tearing down of our educational system, by people who dream up . . . .bullshit . . . . rather than get their hands dirty with the unpleasant business of actually teaching.

When we stop teaching a child so that he/she can pass THE TEST that sends them forward; when we teach personal respect and responsibility again; when we return actual discipline to the classrooms; when we hold the student, their parents, and the school district responsible for their education; when we take an interactive approach to getting a student to really understand the subject matter; when we teach them the basics and expect them to retain the basics; when we stop striving to reach some baloney goal issued by our states/federal government for percentages of passing students; when in fact, we actually start ''teaching'' again. . . then, and only then, will we see significant improvement in the end result.

 

[swimmer]

Well done last paragraph Holly.
I refused to ever teach 9th graders. It was too much of a shock for them to go from "you all are wonderful and deserve stickers for breathing" with no repercussions for hideous behavior, to a learning environment that requires effort everyday. Many educational programs are awesome and have amazingly positive effects, others are just asking us to do what parents refuse to do. It is impossible to be all and do all for every kid in 180 days of school in a year.

 

[Haven]

Holly--I''m so glad that the response I typed out earlier today was lost, because you said it much better than I had.

Lucky--I didn''t take your post the wrong way at all, but I do believe that NCLB and similar initiatives are responsible for the decline in our school system. I stand by that. You can have the most inspired teachers, the greatest resources, well-meaning and involved parents, but all of that means absolutely nothing if the goal of education is to teach students to perform well on a multiple-choice test. And that is what NCLB has done to education.

ksinger--I don''t disagree with your husband, however I believe that one of the major problems with NCLB is that it DOES dictate the goal of education for all students. I agree that all kids are not college material, and shouldn''t be taught as if they were headed for college. I agree with much of what you wrote, but I''ll have to return later because I''m in the process of writing inscriptions in the books I purchased for each of my students. Tomorrow is my last official class day with my current students, and I spent the last few months finding the perfect book for each student, I''m really excited to give them to them tomorrow. That is, if I can manage to wrap them all tonight . . .

 

[swimmer]

Haven, you are amazing.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/15/2008 5:42:03 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 12/14/2008 5:25:37 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 12/14/2008 4:52:33 PM
Author: FrekeChild
You know what I find disturbing...is that there are many many American students out there right now that cannot write a paper. They are being pushed through the school systems, awarded As, Bs and Cs, graduating from high school, and they don''t know what a verb is. Or a noun, or an adjective. And they have passed high school.

How is this possible? (<--rhetorical)

Easy answer, four words: No Child Left Behind.

And all the silly-assed educational initiatives prior to that one.

We treat kids with no personal respect, they in turn have no respect for themselves or others. We don''t expect discipline or responsibility from them, and they act accordingly.
"We" being primarily the parents, I would say. Respect, discipline, and responsibility start and pretty much end in the home.
We give awards to everyone, regardless of their level of achievment. We want to make them feel good. We drug kids with Ritalin instead of applying some discipline to their lives. We separate the children with learning difficulties, making them feel less a part of the school dynamic, because that''s easier for the school.
Agreed. Although that is done primarily at the pressuring of the parents. You don''t want to hear the DH at the prospect of the "Middle School Graduation". Idiotic. And when did we end up with 20 valedictorians?? I recently attended a friend''s daughter''s graduation and was like WTF?? I was informed that that was a direct result of whining parental pressure. Can''t have little Johnny be 1/100 of a point off being valedictorian and NOT be valedictorian. Sheesh. So now we have 20 and it means exactly nothing.

And no, I''m not talking out of my hat. My mother, father, grandmother, aunts, etc. were all teachers and retired as such. I went to college seeking a teaching degree. My father spent 30+ years teaching, most of it with the developmentally disabled. He had five degrees after his name, and certainly knew his craft. He was apalled at the changes in teaching, and the direction of the public school system, and the calloused disregard of the students themselves by the school districts, as well as the sheer ridiculousness of most parents. I suspect many teachers feel exactly the same way, if they have spent enough time in education to have seen the tearing down of our educational system, by people who dream up . . . .bullshit . . . . rather than get their hands dirty with the unpleasant business of actually teaching. Ah! Those who can, TEACH, those who can''t quickly run screaming from a classroom with REAL KIDS and ....become "instructional facilitators". At least around here...

When we stop teaching a child so that he/she can pass THE TEST that sends them forward; when we teach personal respect and responsibility again; when we return actual discipline to the classrooms; when we hold the student, their parents, and the school district responsible for their education; when we take an interactive approach to getting a student to really understand the subject matter; when we teach them the basics and expect them to retain the basics; when we stop striving to reach some baloney goal issued by our states/federal government for percentages of passing students; when in fact, we actually start ''teaching'' again. . . then, and only then, will we see significant improvement in the end result. Better yet, when the schools - ALL of them, can boot the problem kids OUT, we might be able to get back to what you say. Of course the real problem there that no one is willing to address, it the breakdown of society to the point that some of these kids are true criminals by 12 or 13. And as I mentioned before, when we finally admit that there are limited resources - both monetary and human - and unlimited need, we may start getting tough. Of course that will produce its own set of problems. Sigh...

And Swimmer...
Well done last paragraph Holly.
I refused to ever teach 9th graders. It was too much of a shock for them to go from "you all are wonderful and deserve stickers for breathing" with no repercussions for hideous behavior, to a learning environment that requires effort everyday. Many educational programs are awesome and have amazingly positive effects, others are just asking us to do what parents refuse to do. It is impossible to be all and do all for every kid in 180 days of school in a year.
The DH would say that in a nutshell, you have described the HUUUUGE disconnect between elementary/middle school teacher mentality, and highschool teacher mentality.

And on a cheerful note, the DH is already in bed after wrenching his back physically restraining and hauling away a girl almost as tall as himself, from a 4 girl fight. This girl tried for a full 10 minutes to get around him and go BACK to the fight. She''s going to "big girl jail", and all 4 of them were hauled off in handcuffs..... Sadly, not as uncommon a day as one might wish.

 

[risingsun]

In my Advanced Developmental Psych class, we studied "Inflated Self Esteem" and the effect it had on students. We particularly addressed the self-esteem movement in the public school systems. I have attached a link to two articles that describe the outcome of this approach. There a number of journal articles that support this view.
http://www1.curriculum.edu.au/eq/archive/winter2003/html/article_01.shtml
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1997/6/oe05.html

 

[arjunajane]

Oh my, Thing2 stop it you''re making my belly hurt!!




On a different note....The spin off that this thread has taken into discussion about education is very interesting. I am seriously considering pursuing teaching as a career, so my ears are really pricked to this at the moment.

Clearly our country''s systems are very different, but many of the issues here sound disturbingly familiar.

I would like to thank the people contributing the info.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/15/2008 11:47:45 PM
Author: risingsun
In my Advanced Developmental Psych class, we studied ''Inflated Self Esteem'' and the effect it had on students. We particularly addressed the self-esteem movement in the public school systems. I have attached a link to two articles that describe the outcome of this approach. There a number of journal articles that support this view.
http://www1.curriculum.edu.au/eq/archive/winter2003/html/article_01.shtml
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1997/6/oe05.html

I''m degreed and am a huge proponent of formal education, but the utter stupidity of the "self-esteem" movement is one of those things the came out of academia, that was so ridiculous as to defy reason. I''m glad my mom never read it, although she would have snorted and gone one doing her own thing if she had.

It seems we have more extremes these days. On the one hand we have kids with helicoptor parents, who tell them they''re wonderful when they''re clearly not, and over-praise to the point of nausea....OR....we have the 32 year old mother with the 17 year old child, who knows nothing and cares naught for the kid, and calls him a s***head 20 times a day.

I found this morning, that in addition to the fight, he had the parent conference yesterday with the mother who has the lazy daughter who skips class, won''t do the work, etc. She just can''t BELIEVE her little darling is getting a D, and demanded a copy of the test, her daughter''s responses to the questions, and an EXPLANATION from the DH of each mark her daughter got. SHE''S getting a degree in COUNSELING, so SHE knows so much more about this stuff than he does.

He''s like, well, you can come look at the test, but you aren''t TAKING a copy. The mother (the daughter does this too, not surprisingly) was 25 minutes LATE to this little meeting, and DH is 2 minutes away from having to be in ANOTHER class. She said, well, I can come up to your class, and he said, NO, you cannot. We are HAVING class. We are not losing class time for this. As in most of these cases, when you meet the parents of these kids, it all becomes pretty clear.

Of course the real reason parents like her don''t take any of this well, and try to blame the schools, is, if this is not the schools'' fault, then the fact that little Janie is failing is due to HER failings as a parent, and THAT is a hard and painful look in the mirror. Much more pleasant to subscribe to the idea that it''s the school''s fault...

 

[risingsun]

^^^No question that the parents play an important role in inflated self esteem. I have also seen the outcome of students who have been told that they are nothing all their lives and have met this lack of expectations. It is not uncommon for students who have been the product of inflated self esteem to find their way to my practice--in shock-- that they are not being praised for "being who they are" on the college level. They complain about unfair grades, tests and the attitudes of their professors who actually expect them to attend class and produce good work. I also see students who truly believe that they are worth nothing. The parents and school systems have had these children for 18 years and now present them to me to "fix" them. Try telling the parents and schools that it just doesn't work that way. You have had them throughout their formative years. You had them as they negotiated their developmental milestones. Teachers should be able to teach. Students should not be passed on to the next grade if they haven't learned. Allow students to develop earned self esteem and it will become an authentic part of themselves. Hand out a false self of esteem and set these students up for failure.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 12/15/2008 6:06:41 PM
Author: swimmer
Well done last paragraph Holly.
I refused to ever teach 9th graders. It was too much of a shock for them to go from ''you all are wonderful and deserve stickers for breathing'' with no repercussions for hideous behavior, to a learning environment that requires effort everyday. Many educational programs are awesome and have amazingly positive effects, others are just asking us to do what parents refuse to do. It is impossible to be all and do all for every kid in 180 days of school in a year.

Thank you. You make some valid points yourself.

 

[HollyS]

Hey Karen, did you mark your calendar? It''s a red letter day!! We found something to agree on!

I loved your line about the people "who run screaming from the classroom and the REAL KIDS, to become instructional facilitators"!!! My Dad knows exactly whereof you speak!

Kudos to any and all of you who try to really reach and teach today''s kids. I can''t think of a more worthwhile (and often, thankless) job.

 

[risingsun]

Karen~in case it wasn't clear, I am in agreement with your posts. The "you" was not directed at you, but the generic "you" of parents and teachers who have contributed to the self-esteem problem. That is all....