Liability and ungraded stones

[T L]

Crasru,
I think you meant "Thai" vendors, but not sure. It's funny you mention Welborn. A very long time ago on another forum, I did call ebay "Fleabay" as I didn't know any better. Welborn said my comment made her want to cry because she tried very hard to be a reputable ebay vendor. After that, I didn't use that term anymore, and didn't make such generalizations about ebay. I also found some significant values on ebay as far as colored gems were concerned since that time I used the "fleabay" reference, so I was forced to eat my words again.

 

[AustenNut]

Thanks, Digitaldevo, for getting the topic back on track, and for your very informative points.

Also, is it possible to disclose RockHugger's store name? I'd love to see some of the stuff there.

 

[RockHugger]

Rockhugger is no longer an eBay seller. My store was hijacked and a couple things were 'sold' and money was taken under my name while I was traveling past 2 months. So my good name I worked hard on is all screwed up. So I am not a good advocate for eBay's scamming market right now. But I do have to say you can find some amazing deals on there if you know what you are doing!


I am working on a webpage though. Should be done by the end of next month.

 

[chrono]

A little off-track here but wanted to share how sorry I am that RH's hard earned reputation has been tarnished by thieves!

 

[RockHugger]

Thanks chrono. I am bummed by it. But I hear it has been happening a lot lately. So watch your passwords carefully, and change them often, expecially if you are an established seller.

 

[Arkteia]

What a shame, RockHugger! And you, indeed, worked so hard on establishing your good name, I remember how you told us about sending coupons, what not... It is really a shame... Hopefully your website will be ready soon, I really like you and think you deserve the best and thank you for warning us against scammers. I do not sell on ebay, but changing passwords, even for buyers, is a good idea.

Good luck!

TL - yes, Thai vendors, of course! God, that what sleeping in the middle of the day leads up to! Well, no harm done because we have honest dealers in Tanzania as well, and not only on ebay!

 

[T L]

Ditto to what Crasru said RH. I am so sorry that you're having problems with ebay.

 

[digitaldevo]

I know not all Thai Ebay vendors are bad, what I stated is most of them are, and that is a fact I have proven over and over again. Not long ago I bought stones from about 100 Thai vendors on Ebay that had top feedback and had glowing reviews on many forums. What I got in return for money spent was synthetics sold to me as natural, glass simulant sold to me as bi-color quartz, rubies that were more glass then anything sold as heated only, sapphires sold as untreated or heat only that were glass filled and Be or Ti diffused and one that was synthetic that had been Ti Diffused to make it look natural, spinel.. tourmaline.. amethyst... garnets of varying flavors.. aqua and heliodor all sold as untreated yet were all clarity enhanced using differing resins.. epoxies... glues.. CA... oils... dyed all of the prior, etc., tourmaline that was actually fused quartz glass, untreated stones that were Cobalt-60 irradiated, tanzanite that was heated obviously but had coated pavilions, and so on. Orange hessonites sold as mandarin spessartites. Even got a silamanite dyed green and sold as an emerald! Oh, and supposed stable opals that turned from clear to white, crazed, and some even fractured into pieces within a month after purchase. NOT a single picture EVER matched what the stones received looked like either. Out of those 100 tested 2 sellers sent me what I paid for, and even those looked nothing like the pictures and were poorly cut windowed native cut junk, made goods preforms though, lol. Some of these are slowly trickling into my bad sellers list on my website, some are already there. Oh, almost forgot, asked for a report for the one more expensive purchase, report came but was forged/fake/counterfeit. . So, there went $1000+ down the toilet just to doing testing to prove a few things and get the evidence and research needed for some upcoming articles and reports.

Even the few that I know of that are legit sellers, still do NOT properly disclose treatments, especially Beryllium and Cobalt-60 irradiation, properly nor honestly.

But that just boils down to how the Thais do business. Basically whatever it takes to make the sale, tell the buyer whatever they want to hear to get them to buy it, truth or not. Same way in person face to face. Just how it is.

So that is why I specifically state about MOST Thai Ebay sellers, but in NO way do I mean all of them!!!!!!!!! My Wife deals with some so I can't knock them, lol, she'd toss me in the dog house!!!

Also, Amethystguy is done with Ebay as far as I know. 4-5 legit sellers I know of have all closed down shop in the last 2 weeks due to Thai/Chinese scammers driving prices down to nothing due to the scamming, and that they were not getting what they even paid for the material back from the auctions! Sad day, because all 4-5 of these sellers were amazingly honest and used Ebay what it was meant for, honest networking and sales.

See, I refrained from calling it Fleabay. But don;t get mad if I slip here and there, because I call it that everywhere else around the net and in person. After what I have been through with them and that they will even resort to Blackmail/extortion consumers to protect known scammer sellers!! I had Gemological data, micro photos from 3.5x-200x+ magnifications, Spectrometer outputs from a freshly calibrated Ocean Optics spectrophotometer using SpectraSuite software, plus just about every other gemological test you could imagine proving my case and they still would issue no refund nor force the seller to unless I verbally agreed on a recorded conversation that I would drop any further action and pursuit against the seller within as well as outside of Ebay!! Because I was going to nail them due to being in the USA and even within my same State I tracked them down to! A group of Thais or Chinese, never found out which or possibly both as it was a rather large group in this little home, living here taking large shipments into their house running more or less a scamming "blackmarket type ring"(since totally under Governments nose as it is in a home with no business markings at all nor zoning) using Ebay to unload their faked goods they had shipped in directly from Thailand and China. They were even counterfeiting and selling Swarovski Crystal Pearls(actually really nice if the real thing..lol) but shipping out cheapo glass pearls they spray painted with cheap dime store paint to match the proper color(s). But enough of my rant, sorry, you get the idea. So, I have little respect for Ebay at all! But, for the sake of some of the sellers here who sell on there, as my Wife even does once in a blue moon to clearance things out, I will do my best to refrain from using the Fleabay terminology in this forum, promise!!

 

[digitaldevo]

Rock, so sorry to hear about your store! That bites big time! Ebay won't fix it either will they!!!??? Try over at search4gems instead. Newer, but an up and coming online auction for gemstones and jewelry only! Run by very honest and educated Gemologists too!

 

[T L]

I know not all Thai Ebay vendors are bad, what I stated is most of them are, and that is a fact I have proven over and over again.

I won't disagree with you there, and that's why the amount of trusted vendors in my seller list in relation to the total amount of vendors that sell what I'm looking for, is very small. In fact, 95% of everything I buy on ebay is mainly from three vendors nowadays. That's not a lot, and in the past I also had just a few trusted vendors as well. They were different vendors back then though. I made some good relationships with them, but it was rather funny, I knew some vendors that also made good relationships with the same sellers I bought from, and I would always see them resell their items for a lot more.

However, I will say that I have found some of the most phenomenal values from ebay, so I think it's worth the risk because I have made out with some excellent and amazing buys. I also tout some of the sellers I love because I think they deserve to have good business and enjoy the rewards for being honest, and selling goods as advertised.

 

[RockHugger]

Nope, because I can't prove the paypal account the money was sent to is t mine, or someone I know. So I just suck it up and take the beating.

But who knows, maybe something good will come out of it.

 

[LD]

DigitalDevo - would it be possible for you to list the Ebay sellers that sold you fakes please? This is incredibly important information and if we can at least be aware then it helps to stop scammers from operating. I realise that they often close down and start up again just as quickly but you get a feel for when they do that because their stores/adverts often look the same.

Any information you could provide (and also the honest sellers who sold you what you got) would be very helpful.

 

[AustenNut]

DigitalDevo - would it be possible for you to list the Ebay sellers that sold you fakes please? This is incredibly important information and if we can at least be aware then it helps to stop scammers from operating. I realise that they often close down and start up again just as quickly but you get a feel for when they do that because their stores/adverts often look the same.

Any information you could provide (and also the honest sellers who sold you what you got) would be very helpful.

Ditto.

And I'm terribly sorry to hear about your ebay front being scammed, RockHugger. Good luck with the website, though!

 

[iLander]

I caught on to this thread late, and I have to comment on what Richard said:

HEY! I believe you just defined pricescopers as con artists? We're trying to con the poor gem seller out of their valuable stones? Where did you get that idea? I think that was rude and uncalled for, but mostly I can't figure out why you would come up with that.

I like this forum because I am a very picky buyer (as all the poor guys who sell to me can attest) and I like UNUSUAL and CUSTOM, stuff my local jewelry store can't offer.

As for "buying cheap", there is a price I am willing to pay; it does not mean a stone is not worth more, it means it is not worth more TO ME.

I sell on Ebay (not gems), and I have great feedback which I work hard to maintain. I sell specifically to finance this crazy new gem hobby. I think a lot of ebay sellers are regular folks, whose tastes or hobbies have changed and they want to "trade in" old stuff for new. That's how I use it, anyway.

And back to the original post: call your state's attorney generals office and ask about the statute of limitations. If I paid for a diamond and five years later it turned out to be a CZ, I would call that fraud.

I don't think it's the BUYER'S responsibility to be sure the SELLER is honest. If that were true, civilization would turn into chaos. I think it's the SELLER's responsibility to BE honest. That's EXACTLY what separates the honest (friends of pricescope-including quality ebayers) gem dealers from the few lousy, lying ebay sellers.

 

[Arkteia]

I know not all Thai Ebay vendors are bad, what I stated is most of them are, and that is a fact I have proven over and over again. Not long ago I bought stones from about 100 Thai vendors on Ebay that had top feedback and had glowing reviews on many forums. What I got in return for money spent was synthetics sold to me as natural, glass simulant sold to me as bi-color quartz, rubies that were more glass then anything sold as heated only, sapphires sold as untreated or heat only that were glass filled and Be or Ti diffused and one that was synthetic that had been Ti Diffused to make it look natural, spinel.. tourmaline.. amethyst... garnets of varying flavors.. aqua and heliodor all sold as untreated yet were all clarity enhanced using differing resins.. epoxies... glues.. CA... oils... dyed all of the prior, etc., tourmaline that was actually fused quartz glass, untreated stones that were Cobalt-60 irradiated, tanzanite that was heated obviously but had coated pavilions, and so on. Orange hessonites sold as mandarin spessartites. Even got a silamanite dyed green and sold as an emerald! Oh, and supposed stable opals that turned from clear to white, crazed, and some even fractured into pieces within a month after purchase. NOT a single picture EVER matched what the stones received looked like either. Out of those 100 tested 2 sellers sent me what I paid for, and even those looked nothing like the pictures and were poorly cut windowed native cut junk, made goods preforms though, lol. Some of these are slowly trickling into my bad sellers list on my website, some are already there. Oh, almost forgot, asked for a report for the one more expensive purchase, report came but was forged/fake/counterfeit. . So, there went $1000+ down the toilet just to doing testing to prove a few things and get the evidence and research needed for some upcoming articles and reports.

Even the few that I know of that are legit sellers, still do NOT properly disclose treatments, especially Beryllium and Cobalt-60 irradiation, properly nor honestly.

But that just boils down to how the Thais do business. Basically whatever it takes to make the sale, tell the buyer whatever they want to hear to get them to buy it, truth or not. Same way in person face to face. Just how it is.

So that is why I specifically state about MOST Thai Ebay sellers, but in NO way do I mean all of them!!!!!!!!! My Wife deals with some so I can't knock them, lol, she'd toss me in the dog house!!!

Also, Amethystguy is done with Ebay as far as I know. 4-5 legit sellers I know of have all closed down shop in the last 2 weeks due to Thai/Chinese scammers driving prices down to nothing due to the scamming, and that they were not getting what they even paid for the material back from the auctions! Sad day, because all 4-5 of these sellers were amazingly honest and used Ebay what it was meant for, honest networking and sales.

See, I refrained from calling it Fleabay. But don;t get mad if I slip here and there, because I call it that everywhere else around the net and in person. After what I have been through with them and that they will even resort to Blackmail/extortion consumers to protect known scammer sellers!! I had Gemological data, micro photos from 3.5x-200x+ magnifications, Spectrometer outputs from a freshly calibrated Ocean Optics spectrophotometer using SpectraSuite software, plus just about every other gemological test you could imagine proving my case and they still would issue no refund nor force the seller to unless I verbally agreed on a recorded conversation that I would drop any further action and pursuit against the seller within as well as outside of Ebay!! Because I was going to nail them due to being in the USA and even within my same State I tracked them down to! A group of Thais or Chinese, never found out which or possibly both as it was a rather large group in this little home, living here taking large shipments into their house running more or less a scamming "blackmarket type ring"(since totally under Governments nose as it is in a home with no business markings at all nor zoning) using Ebay to unload their faked goods they had shipped in directly from Thailand and China. They were even counterfeiting and selling Swarovski Crystal Pearls(actually really nice if the real thing..lol) but shipping out cheapo glass pearls they spray painted with cheap dime store paint to match the proper color(s). But enough of my rant, sorry, you get the idea. So, I have little respect for Ebay at all! But, for the sake of some of the sellers here who sell on there, as my Wife even does once in a blue moon to clearance things out, I will do my best to refrain from using the Fleabay terminology in this forum, promise!!

OK that is scary. But since gem dealers here still have to buy from, say, Thai vendors (or at gem shows, but often from the same vendors) and not everyone goes on gem safaris (and if they do, they also have to buy from someone), they resell Thai material at an overhead. Really top-quality stones are certified, but not everything is, and not at all websites. Not all Pala's stones are certified, and not all stones on Richard's website are. Many well-known dealers and cutters give merchant's certificate.

How do gem dealers here prove that what they buy from Thai dealers is legit? They probably ask for a certificate from local labs, AIGS or whatever... it would be too expensive to send all gems to AGL for recertification. So how high is the chance of us buying, say, cobalt-treated gem from an american dealer + an overhead? We can buy it either way, on Ebay or here...

I am not targeting anyone specific. But I want to repeat a story already told here. When I was looking for a demantoid, I specifically stated, unheated one. Two jewelers brought me stones from the Tucson show. Each of them was sold as unheated. None was certified, and the one I am wearing now is probably the lightest of the three. The other two were gorgeous bottle-green. We sent them to AGTA which was open at that time and they came back as heated. I chose the only one that was not. All three stones were bought from very reputable vendors. Bottom line? Even reputable vendors buy from locals and have to rely on their word. But if locals are dishonest and sell misrepresented products to US dealers, then chances are, I can buy the same products here at a higher cost.

Of course I am not asking to certify any cheapo spinel I win on ebay. The most expensive pair was $ 156.00. And of course I am going to send to AGL the Mahenge spinel I bought from a Thai dealer (the spinel already has AIGS certificate). But seriously, would every US gem dealer certify a 156.00 pair of spinels? Or just sell it for $ 500.00? So isn't it cheaper to make a mistake on ebay?

And some dealers here give you three days to inspect the product. Do all of us have a home lab that tests for cobalt irradiation or Ti diffusion? You can not even send the stone to GIA for certification in such a short period of time. I hope that our merchants will take back the product if GIA proves that it has been misrepresented. Even in 10 years, because a name is a name.

But a scathing review on ebay may cost a Thai dealer more. Everyone reads Toolhaus. And ebay will intervene in case of gross misrepresentation. So it is as safe as here, I presume.

Sorry, I am not attacking anyone. And I have looked at your website and saw that you had a very impressive lab. I am not sure that every gem merchant has the same lab, though. And you probably trade in smaller amounts. Some websites have thousands of stones. It would be hard to certify all of them.

 

[T L]

Crasru,
Because of your concerns which you raise above, I routinely buy gems that are not traditionally treated, like garnets, faceted chrysoberyls, spinels, etc. . . However, I'm sure they're working up ways to treat even those. I have recently heard about fracture filling on garnets, and heat treatment on spinels (which improves clarity, but not color). For example, I refuse to buy any more corundum because

1) The quality I like is very expensive (in that case, it's worth it to get a comprehensive reputable lab report).
2) The less expensive ones should have some lab report, but to test for full treatment (diffusion), so it may not be cost effective.
3) I've heard horror stories of reputable labs identifying a stone as unheated, and then when it was returned for verification, then heated, and I'm talking a very very reputable lab that's name begins with a "G"

You do bring up an excellent point about ebay, even if there are ebay-haters. There is a feedback system, and for me, I find it to be quite valuable. You can't go to a regular vendor's website and read impartial reviews, but with ebay, you can through toolhaus.org, and there is some recourse if you have issues with a vendor.

 

[T L]

I don't think it's the BUYER'S responsibility to be sure the SELLER is honest. If that were true, civilization would turn into chaos. I think it's the SELLER's responsibility to BE honest. That's EXACTLY what separates the honest (friends of pricescope-including quality ebayers) gem dealers from the few lousy, lying ebay sellers.

I think when it comes to jewelry and gems, which are not as regulated as other high priced goods, some of the responsibility does fall on the buyer, as sad and unfortunate as that may seem. That is why we have forums like Pricescope, to benefit consumer education. It is very important to buy from honest sellers, but even honest sellers may be duped, so as I always harp, verification, verification, verification. Part of that is the consumer responsibility, as not all vendors, even honest ones, will recommend a lab report.

The problem is that natural gems are not man made objects, and we can't really place a specific grade on it like we can a certain model of car after looking at all the options and the sticker price. There are way too many variations in natural gems, and way too many pricepoints as a result, so the more expensive the gem, the more important it is that the consumer is educated about it and follows up with verification. That falls on the consumer as far as I'm concerned to understand a fair price, and know what they are paying for. Even honest sellers with great reputations can overcharge for a gem, it does happen. Profit is key for many vendors.

 

[chrono]

Crasru,
Most US vendors will bring along their gemological tools to help them check for telltale signs of a stimulant, fake, synthetic or other. Of course, having the right contact is very important for them too to lessen their risk of purchasing incorrectly represented rough. However, like you said, not everyone has all the tools or skills to make a definitive review, which is why I still insist on verification by a lab for higher priced items. The problem with eBay is that the unscrupulous ones may NOT agree to a refund, unlike most US vendors where you still have recourse. Not only that, it appears quite easy to “close shop” and re-open under a different name selling the same fake crap as Amethystguy has shown us in the past when he tracked such eBay vendors.

 

[T L]

Chrono,
I have heard through ebay that refunds are required, and there is a certain limit of days. For example, I believe you have 30 days for a refund, even if the seller claims 7 days. With a non-ebay seller, they may not give you a refund, and you don't have much recourse. You do need to read their fine print.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about ebay in my statement above, but I think RockHugger or AmethystGuy mentioned that at one time.

 

[chrono]

So what happens to those with statements claiming that there will be no refunds unless it is grossly misrepresented, then the vendors disagrees with the buyer and claims that the stone is as represented? Say, in this case the picture does not match up to the stone IRL at all (photoshopping).

 

[Arkteia]

I want to say that there is such an overhead when you buy from extremely reputable US websites, the overhead is humongous, twice as much as if you buy from other US websites. If I buy from these websites or from my jeweler, it would be probably twice as much as if I were buying from other websites as a collector. This would drive me to other US websites who do not charge such a premium. Or to cutters who may not have access to expensive rough. And neither of these two can check for Be-diffision, not to mention Ti one. Question is, where do I buy? I like really nice-looking sapphires, and recently bought another, albeit a smaller one, but after this discussion I am seriously thinking of sending it back. Oh well, I think everything goes up in price and a 100 years from now, heated/Ha but not diffused stones will command such a premium... If mankind exists by that time.

And even Sotheby's makes mistakes, just read Matlin's book. I suppose when she was examining a string of jadeite beads she was talking about, more sophisticated ways of treatment like Ti diffusion of corundum were not even available. (The beads were colored nephrite or jadeite I believe). I can not imagine what is going on now. But DG, thank you very much for mentioning these newer treatments, because now when I send to AGL I shall be specifically asking to test for Ti, not Be-treatment only.

And your lab is very impressive. I shall certainly consider certifying stones I buy from Thai dealers with you. I admire your interest and your dedication. But you scared me by implying that Thai dealers touted at many forums sell fakes or provide fake certificates, and I for sure spent a restless night!

Why don't we look at Sarosi's inventory? His more expensive stones may be older and collected by his father or by him years ago. Granted, they are expensive but at least they are old enough.

 

[Michael_E]

That falls on the consumer as far as I'm concerned to understand a fair price, and know what they are paying for. Even honest sellers with great reputations can overcharge for a gem, it does happen. Profit is key for many vendors.

Fair price? Overcharge? Interesting idea, but how on earth can you know these things? I've been doing this for over 30 years and there are so many variables in the pricing of gems that it's nearly impossible to know what a "fair price" is. Since most of the people buying online are not in the trade and have a small amount of experience, how would you suggest that they arrive at an idea of a "fair" price for anything? Looking at pricing on websites might get you in the ballpark, but even then the variability may be as high as 50% to 100%. E-Bay is interesting but hardly a place to get an idea on pricing for better goods. This is not a complaint about your comment, just wondering how people arrive at their ideas about price.

It brings up a funny story that happened to me when I had a small B&M shop in a rural town in Washington State. A local radio personality, who was also a neighbor, had come into my shop asking for a fine quality one carat diamond for his wife and was doing the "I'm a real smoothie" dance acting like he really knew what was going on and had large sums to spend on this stone. I told him that he was probably looking at spending anywhere from $4000 to $10,000 depending on how crazy he was feeling and his reaction was a classic. The poor guy was bald and he turned a dramatic shade of red and started sweating profusely while slowly backing out of the store making excuses for being there. He obviously thought that the cost would be much lower and reality popped his balloon so rapidly that he didn't know what to do. It was kind of funny, but I really felt badly for him, since he was a nice guy and just didn't have a clue about how nutty prices could be.

The moral here is that there is no such thing as "overcharging". You either like the piece and pay the price, (or make an offer), or forget about it and try elsewhere until you figure it out. Honesty goes both ways and communication is the key in any buy/sell transaction. This means that honest communication on a buyers part about their desires and budget can get them much more information about what can be done for them, than having the idea that they "know" what's going on and making assumptions based on price alone. Having this feeling that someone is overcharging and is therefore perhaps suspect of not being "honest", can put a person in a position of thinking that they know more about the market, (and the sellers costs, ethics and motivations), than they probably do.

 

[T L]

That falls on the consumer as far as I'm concerned to understand a fair price, and know what they are paying for. Even honest sellers with great reputations can overcharge for a gem, it does happen. Profit is key for many vendors.

Fair price? Overcharge? Interesting idea, but how on earth can you know these things? I've been doing this for over 30 years and there are so many variables in the pricing of gems that it's nearly impossible to know what a "fair price" is. Since most of the people buying online are not in the trade and have a small amount of experience, how would you suggest that they arrive at an idea of a "fair" price for anything? Looking at pricing on websites might get you in the ballpark, but even then the variability may be as high as 50% to 100%. E-Bay is interesting but hardly a place to get an idea on pricing for better goods. This is not a complaint about your comment, just wondering how people arrive at their ideas about price.

I don't know Michael, I've been collecting 20+ years or so, and after all those years, I think I can tell when something is a bit expensive. I don't mean to sound snotty because I do understand your skepticism. For example, Tiffany & Co charges exhorbitant prices. When I see a mediocre 2 carat peridot or quartz for over $200/ct, my eyebrows raise a little bit too. Sure anyone can charge what they want, and that's why I think it's really important to shop around, and get an idea of fair pricing on a particular species, carat size, cut, clarity, and color. While diamonds are generally easy to get an idea for a fair market value, colored gems can run the gamut of values. For me, it's sometimes very obvious when a stone is overpriced due to all the shopping around I have done over the years and watchng trends.

A while back I found an interesting quote someone in the trade stated. "You can charge $1000/ct for a CZ and that's not breaking the law. If you say that CZ is a diamond, then that's breaking the law." That tells me anyone can charge whatever they like, and it's not regulated, it's what the market will bear. Therefore, that also tells me to look around.

Unlike a car, or some man made object, gems can really run the gamut of values, and that's why I emphasize that people should shop around if they're on a budget or are just looking for a good value. Now I don't think you'll find a well priced untreated fine quality 3 carat Burmese ruby, that's out of the question. However, a well priced color change sapphire, a chrysoberyl, a peridot, etc. . . perhaps.

In a legal sense, there is no such thing as overcharging for a gemstone. In a consumer sense, I think there is.

 

[T L]

So what happens to those with statements claiming that there will be no refunds unless it is grossly misrepresented, then the vendors disagrees with the buyer and claims that the stone is as represented? Say, in this case the picture does not match up to the stone IRL at all (photoshopping).

I'm not sure, but I don't sell on ebay. I've only heard this from Amguy. Hopefully an ebay seller will chime in because it is a good question.

 

[RockHugger]

If a buyer receives a stone and they say the stone misrepresented and the seller refuses a refund, paypal will refund the money. You have to open a paypal claim, and then return the stone (with tracking). Paypal will refund the buyers money.

The sellers comment in the listing means absulutely nothing, as paypal will usually always side with the buyer in this situation as long as the item is returned. That's why I do t get why sellers even bother putting special conditions in the listing, because pay pals policies over ride them. Why I never bothered with no refund auctions, because with bay and paypal, there is no such thing if someone claims misrepresenting.

Now on the flip side, there are plenty of buyer scammers out there. One big scam is buying an expensive stone, and then claiming it is not as described. Opening a claim and shipping it back with tracking, but swapping the stone with a different one.

Paypal will believe the buyer and refund the money at the sellers expense because they can prove the stone was 'returned'. I have never came across this thank god, but the scammers are out there.

Don't mind my typos. My iPad is dirty and it's not reading every letter I type, lol

 

[chrono]

RockHugger,
Thanks so much for explaining how the buyer is protected under PayPay’s umbrella while shopping on eBay.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I don't buy cut stones, so my comments are more limited to rough, but I have found over there years there is no such thing as a deal too good to be true. People don't give stones away at low prices. I'm sure the same is true for cut stones. If you see a 1.5 ct tsavorite garnet for sale on eBay or anywhere else for $30, this just isn't possible. A 1.5 ct piece of rough out in the bush in East Africa would cost you that much. A 1.5 ct cut stone would need at least a 3 or 4 ct rough if it was shaped really well. I doubt anyone is in the business of buying stones, having them cut then selling them for a loss. There is something wrong when the prices are too far out of line.

As far as getting what you think you paid for, I would think any better dealer would refund you, or at least replace or give credit for a purchase that later turned out to be something other than what it was sold for. This is true with the better rough dealers I work with. Occasionally mistakes are made, and stones are sold as one thing when they are really another. THere's a guy I see every year that I buy large amounts of stones from, recently I cut a "chrome green tourmaline" that ended up being a plain green tourmaline. I bought the stone over a year ago, and he refunded me.

 

[RockHugger]

Gene, as much as I respect you, I have to disagree.
I buy stones all the time from dealers and people for very low prices. Most of them know what they have, but are just trying to unload invantory in this crap economy. And some just dont know what stones sell for. I of course test the stones and look for synthetics and treatments (and of course avoid stones with undetectable treatments). I have managed to start a business off of this practice, and its going well.
I think if you know where to look, and keep a peeled eye there are deals to be had. Traveling to thailand and africa arnt the only resources to find quality stones.

 

[T L]

Hi Gene,
Sorry I keep responding to this thread, but I find it a fascinating discussion.

I think some dealers can offer stones for lower prices because they buy rough in bulk, hence the reason you can find a very good bargain on a gem that would sell for more somewhere else. There are some gems however that you will never get a bargain on and to me, those are

untreated fine Burmese ruby
untreated fine sapphire (Ceylon, Burma, Kashmir and even Madagascar)
untreated to minor treated fine Columbian emerald

There are probably others, but I do think there is a wide gamut in the price ranges for many stones, even tsavorite. I do know that inclusions also bring down the prices substantially. Remember the 6.16 ct Loliondo you sold me. You practically gave it away to me because it did have three inclusions.

I love bargains, and I've seen you give out your fair share of them

 

[PrecisionGem]

When buying rough, the really nice stones are seldom put in parcels. I'll see a bag of Umbalite garnet, with maybe 300-500 stones. Then the same dealer will bring out individual bags of single stones. These are the best from the lot. The whole large parcel is offered at one price, and the single stones for another price. It may be double the price per ct. I buy the single stone. Then I may pick some form the larger parcel, and pay a premium of maybe 25% - 30% over the price had I taken the whole parcel. But I don't care how many you are buying, they never get cheap enough to warrant some of the prices I see on some eBay sites. Swala owned the mine for tsavorite and couldn't compete with these prices. The economy of scale only goes so far, and then the deal is just too good to be true.

I have been told many times by various African's, that the Thai's are paying high prices for good stones, higher than I have offered.