Long term prospects of exotic minerals

[Cave Keeper]

Hi everyone here. I''m new to the hobby of gemstone collecting. After some reading, I''m not confident about plunging recklessly into this hobby without considering the longer-term prospects for each of the more exotic gemstones, such as Paraiba Tourmaline, Red Beryl, Alexandrite, Demantoid Garnet, Tsavorite, Mandarin Sapphire, Tanzanite and Cat''s Eye. I know many of you may consider money should not be a factor for hobbyists, but still I feel a lot of personal funds will be involved if one is to be able to collect worthwhile pieces.

What is everybody''s opinion? How do you rate in order their prospects?

Should I concentrate on one type of mineral?

Should stones collected be large?

Should many stones of similar size be accumulated?

BTW, how do I insert those nice smilies? When I clicked one, my entire message gets destroyed. Checked the FAQs, but they''re silent on this.

 

[coolguynamek]

Thats nice to hear you are collecting gems and minerals. According to me you should collect some precious and semi-precious gems and make a good hobby.

You can post a smile by clicking on insert a smile button its will get inserted automatically and then click on submit... its done then

coolguy

 

[Nicrez]

I have to say that when collecting gems, it's always safer to know how to identify them. I suggest purchasing a few gem books so as to recognize what makes a specific variety of gem. You wouldn't want to spend emerald prices on a emerald/glass doublet...or buy a red garnet for Ruby prices!




One I have found that is helpful in sorting stones of similar colors, including their characteristics is Gemstones by Call Hall, published by the Smithsonian Handbooks. Also, you can try Gemstones of the World by Walter Schumann.




Two very helpful books I found were the Gem Reference Guide (for GIA Colored Stones, Gem Identification and Colored Stones Grading Courses), and The Essential Colored Stone Reference Guide by GIA. These last two may not be available in bookstores, and may only be available through GIA




I also suggest that when purchasing such stones, ALWAYS have them appraised before or after purchasing (if you can procure a good return policy in writing), so a professional can give you a positive ID on the type of stone it is, and an estimate of the stones' worth and value. Buying such stones without proper verification can result in the $400+ dollar a carat paraiba tourmaline my friend bought at 7 carats, and a waste of money, since it was actually an treated aquamarine.




So be careful, and remember you should always rely on an expert opinion before shelling out money. you never know what you could get, even when it looks authentic, they may not disclose fillings, oilings, irradiations, heat treatments, etc...some of these are crucial to know about a stone, for your normal wear and care of your stones, or they could easily be damagaed or lose color. GOOD LUCK!

 

[chialea]

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On 7/1/2004 2:14:06 AM Cave Keeper wrote:


BTW, how do I insert those nice smilies? When I clicked one, my entire message gets destroyed. Checked the FAQs, but they're silent on this.

----------------

It's browser-dependent. Safari, Mozilla, and Netscape destroy the message, iirc. I'm not sure about Opera. However, there are text representations of each of them; colon right-parenthesis is

. I've thought about going through and figuring em out and posting it, but it's probably much more efficient for Leonid to just do it, since he can look at the list.

 

[GLudlow]

Gemstones and their value is a topic many, many people have analyzed before. Unfortunately, from everything I've read, it's almost random. It seems that the only people who consistantly make money are those who can buy, add value, and resell (such as gem cutters, jewlers, etc). And of course the people who mine them!

So if I were you, I'd approach this hobby a 100% monetary loss. That way not only will you reasonable with your purchases, but if you *do* get something back, it wil be beneficial.

 

[DiamondExpert]

Learn all you can so you know what you are looking at and what it's value is in the market you buying it in, AND then collect only what you fall in love with...that way your knowledge will keep you from wasting your $, and you will always enjoy what you have, regardless of the markets...ENJOY!

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/1/2004 7:14:54 AM coolguynamek wrote:


You can post a smile by clicking on insert a smile button its will get inserted automatically and then click on submit... its done then

coolguy
----------------

Thanks, coolguy, but it's not possible to click the 'Insert a smile' as it has no button. 8^(

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/1/2004 8:00:27 AM Nicrez wrote:



I have to say that when collecting gems, it's always safer to know how to identify them. I suggest purchasing a few gem books so as to recognize what makes a specific variety of gem. You wouldn't want to spend emerald prices on a emerald/glass doublet...or buy a red garnet for Ruby prices!





:
Gemstones by Call Hall, published by the Smithsonian Handbooks.
:
Gemstones of the World by Walter Schumann.
:
Gem Reference Guide (for GIA Colored Stones, Gem Identification and Colored Stones Grading Courses)
:
The Essential Colored Stone Reference Guide by GIA.
:



:
ALWAYS have them appraised before or after purchasing
:





:
always rely on an expert opinion before shelling out money.
:
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Thanks for the list of books. I have only the Schumann (1997)book. Hope it's up-to-date.

Also, thanks for your appraisal tip. Only thing I worry is the logistics involved in appraisal and lab testing. Anyone could comment on what do such logistics involve, preferably in a separate thread?

Also, thanks for the expert opinion tip. Unfortunately I wonder how that's to be done, particularly if purchases are made with on-line websites.

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/1/2004 11:37:04 AM chialea wrote:

----------------

On 7/1/2004 2:14:06 AM Cave Keeper wrote:



BTW, how do I insert those nice smilies? When I clicked one, my entire message gets destroyed. Checked the FAQs, but they're silent on this.
----------------

It's browser-dependent. Safari, Mozilla, and Netscape destroy the message, iirc. I'm not sure about Opera. However, there are text representations of each of them; colon right-parenthesis is

. I've thought about going through and figuring em out and posting it, but it's probably much more efficient for Leonid to just do it, since he can look at the list.----------------

Thanks. So it's the Netscape I'm using. Probably will change to Opera.

Anyway, managed to copy the HTML code for the wavy smiley in Necrez's message when it was requoted in my reply to it. The structure of the HTML code is:-

left-arrow-head IMG SRC="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/replacewithsmileyname.gif" right-arrow-head

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/1/2004 2:14:06 AM Cave Keeper wrote:


:
the longer-term prospects for each of the more exotic gemstones, such as Paraiba Tourmaline, Red Beryl, Alexandrite, Demantoid Garnet, Tsavorite, Mandarin Sapphire, Tanzanite and Cat's Eye.
:
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Oops, sorry, I meant Mandarin Garnet, not Mandarin Sapphire. Is the latter considered to be in the same class of rarity as the others in my list? Don't see Mandarin Sapphire mentioned in any book so far. Any opinion on that variety?

Oh, I wish to add Black Opal, Kashmir Blue Sapphire and Spinel to the list, too.

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/1/2004 7:39:38 PM GLudlow wrote:


:
It seems that the only people who consistantly make money are those who can buy, add value, and resell (such as gem cutters, jewlers, etc). And of course the people who mine them!

So if I were you, I'd approach this hobby a 100% monetary loss.
:

Thanks for your valuable comment.

But I do wonder which particular minerals on my list should be avoided in order to minimise the anticipated total loss

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/1/2004 8:00:27 AM Nicrez wrote:


:
I also suggest that when purchasing such stones, ALWAYS have them appraised before or after purchasing (if you can procure a good return policy in writing), so a professional can give you a positive ID on the type of stone it is, and an estimate of the stones' worth and value.
:
So be careful, and remember you should always rely on an expert opinion before shelling out money.
:
----------------

Thanks for the advice, but I've just realized there's going to be a problem with purchases costing less than $100, say. The appraisal fees will be relatively high. For example, there's a 0.09 mm. Paraiba Tourmaline cut gemstone selling for $14 on the Net, and a 0.01 mm. one for only $6. 8^(

 

[innerkitten]

Good point. Maybe you could have a group of stones appraised at one time or something.

 

[mogok]

Hello,

if you want some reference books titles in order to think about collecting gems here is what I use to give to my students in AIGS (Asian Institute of Gemological Sciences) in Bangkok:
The Walter Schuman: Gemstones of the world is probably the best you can get if you consider the quality-size-price ratio.

But if you want more information about the stones and their qualities there are few good books: I usually recommend:

"Consumer guide to colored gemstones" from David Federman with excellent Tino Hammid photos.
"Gemstones quality and Value" volume 1 and 2 for gems and volume 3 for jewelry written by Yasukazu Suwa

Now the bible in the gem trade is the "GEMS, their sources, descriptions and identification" from R.Webster 5th edition.
For the crystals a good technical reference is "Mineralogy" from John Sinkansas

With this you have a very solid reference base.

Now you can also add it you are interested by ruby and sapphire:
"Ruby and Sapphire" from Richard Hugues is a good reference for corundum even if now it is beginning to get old as it would need an update on new deposit and beryllium treatment.

Then I would advise you to get as many "Gems and Gemology" as you can. Its a good magazine not to scientific or technical easy to read.
If you want more serious you have "Journal of gemmology" which is the FGA magazine, less beautiful photos, but more technical.
In these 2 magazine you have very often articles about rare stones, new deposits, etc...

But one question: Are you gemologist?
If not may be if you have the time you could also consider to study gemology. Bangkok is a great place for that as the quality of the studies is better than in many western countries (the schools here have excellent up to date gemstones collections to show) and you can see really a lot of stones out of the class and get a good idea about what you should better do before to begin to spend an important amount of dollars in fine rare gemstones.

Hoping that could help you,

 

[mogok]

Hello,
Well I see some contradiction in what you are saying: If you pay a reputable dealer for him to risk his life and go to buy direct from the mines, how can you buy the stone with a report from Gubelin, AGTL or AGL?
I've never heard about people in Kasmir or even in Mogok selling their stones with a report that suggest that the stone has been in America before...
Kasmiri and Burmese dont care reports from western lab. Knowledgeable gem dealers also dont care...
Whatever I agree with you: As a collector without a lot of knowledge, buying with a report is a security.

Regarding to the idesa to send somebody with knowledge to the mines... Well, thats a possibility but its not the less expensive one!
Whatever if you need somebody do not hesitate to send me a private email... This idea to send somebody risking his life in Mogok is fun to me as I told many times to my boss that even if I was not born in Mogok but I would be happy to die there one day searching for a fine ruby!

All the best,

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/12/2004 10:00:05 PM kashmirblue wrote:
As a prospector, collector, or investor I suggest buying what is truly rare.
:
Ed Cleveland
303-882-8855
www.kashmirblue.com----------------

Thank you very much for your very good advice, Ed.

But as an investor, I'm still not sure if a certain amount of money invested in very, very rare natural untreated gems, such as Kashmir Blue Sapphire, Russian Demantoid Garnet, Tsavorite Garnet, Padparadscha Sapphire, Alexandrite, Utah Bixbite or California Benitoite, especially those of large size, will return as much as the same amount of money invested in treated gems of the same mineral, e.g., heat-treated Thai Blue Sapphires, heat-treated Thai Red Rubies and Beryllium-enriched Thai Orange Sapphires, and in smaller sizes or in gems of other different, but much less rare, minerals, such as Spinel, Beryl, Cat's Eye Chrysoberyl, Garnet or Tourmaline.

 

[innerkitten]

I think it probably will return more money because the earth will run out of certain minerals. Actually It already is.

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/13/2004 1:24:23 PM innerkitten wrote:
I think it probably will return more money because the earth will run out of certain minerals. Actually It already is.----------------

Hi, innerkitten

Thanks for your viewpoint.

My point was which mineral or size of gem will give a better return. For example, will $100,000 invested in Bixbite and Paraiba Tourmaline at around $5,000 give a better return in a decade or two compared with the same $100,000 in heated Thai Blue Sapphires, red Pyrope Garnet and Spinel for the same period? The market for Bixbite and Paraiba Tourmaline is much, much smaller, involving highly-specialized collectors. Perhaps in a decade, the value may increase to $1,000,000. But the same $100,0000 invested in the less rare minerals might have increased to $2,000,000 in a much larger (and perhaps much more saleable) market to boot.

A different kind of example could be the question of size of stone (well, actually the above problem as described already involves size of stone, since Bixbite and Paraiba Tourmaline are normally less than a carat per stone). Would it be better to invest $100,000 in a eye clean 5-carat Cornflour Blue Sapphire gemstone or in many more smaller 1 carat Cornflour Blue Sapphire gemstones, also eye clean.

 

[innerkitten]

Cave Keeper, have you been to gemforcaster.com ? They have some information on collecting and what they think is best to collect if you are doing it for fun or for profit.

 

[mogok]

Hello,
I agree with Kashmirblue on the different points he has pointed out:
Rubies, Sapphire, Diamonds and emerald are and will be...
But to these big 4 you can probably add Imperial Jade and to a lesser extend: Red Spinels and Tsavorites (for which the main problem is not the beauty, quality or rarity but their name unknown to the non educated public)
If you get an exeptional gem of these species, you find find one day a customer. For these stones the bigger the better, but do not forget that the market of 15 or 20 carats over gems begins to be very narrow...
For jewelry purposes the best is 3 carats over ( in order to be a "single stone") and if possible under 15 to 20 carats.
To my opinion and experience: 5 to 12 carats untreated rubies, sapphires or emeralds with exceptional color, cut and clarity are the best investment gemstones.
But top red spinels, imperial Jade or Tsavorites would have been very good investment in the last 5 years...

For the rest I agree with you that Kasmir sapphire mines are much more difficult to reach than Mogok... Mogok is with some limitations an area open to tourists nowadays. I like your "walk in the park" description for Mogok: Its very close to the impression that I have each time I go there, I would just like to add: "Walk in the gem park"...
All the best,

 

[Cave Keeper]

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On 7/13/2004 9:56:41 PM innerkitten wrote:
Cave Keeper, have you been to gemforcaster.com ? They have some information on collecting and what they think is best to collect if you are doing it for fun or for profit.----------------

Yes, innerkitten, I have. I agree Gem Forecaster/Gemstone Forecaster (preciousgemstones.com?) is a very rich source of information, especially on industry news for the past few years. Another very rich source is Colored Stone magazine (colored-stone.com).

But coverage on web happenings need to be increased. So much is happening in the World Wide Web which is affecting how colored gemstones are being transacted, without being visually inspected in the buyer's physical presence. And maybe about time there is a consumer body (if not the Trade Department) which sends agents around testing if natural stones sold on the Net are untreated if such claims are made.