Marriage

[AGBF]

I thought I''d share some of my own thoughts on marriage in the hopes of sparking further discussion.

I was, at first, threatened at the idea of same sex marriage. Since I felt that way I can identify with a lot of the people who are up in arms that same sex marriage seems to have arrived. (The protesters with whom I cannot identify are those reviling homosexuals as sinners.)

I grew up in the 1950s. Every living room in my neighborhood (except ours) had a picture of the "mother" as a bride. I loved the pictures of the brides. I *STILL* love pictures of brides. I felt my mother had let me down dreadfully to have eloped as she did, leaving me without the bride-mother picture everyone else had!

When I got married I hardly knew my husband. In some ways we are well-matched, but in other ways we are quite mismatched. I knew when I got married, however, that I never wanted to get a divorce. I really was against divorce, although I wasn''t interested in controlling anyone else''s life. I just wished that divorce didn''t exist (except maybe for some people who were really miserable). I think the very fact that divorce existed threatened me, made me think that the bond I was foming was soluble.

I also thought that any sexual intimacy outside of marriage was inherently wrong, even if both parties to the marriage knew about it and agreed to it. I was sure it would ruin any "real" marriage.

Same sex marriage was not even on the horizon when I got married. I had many homosexual friends, most of them male, but a lot of them had been married to people of the opposite sex or were still married to people of the opposite sex.
Some had tried heterosexual marraige and failed at it. One couple: a gay man and a lesbian woman were very happily married to each other. They slept in the same bed every night and had two adopted children.

Speaking of children, I have to go get mine at school. I''ll write more later. Does anyone else want to share?

Deb

 

[Mara]

Greg asked me this weekend what I felt about the whole same sex marriage thing.




My feelings are very short and to the point. Who cares. Who cares if a man and a man want to get married. Let them. So they are gay? They are people with rights like everyone else. Let them do what they want, it's not hurting anyone.




If gay couples can adopt, shouldn't they be allowed to be married too? What does it say to an adopted child of a gay family that their parents aren't allowed to be married?




Some gay couples have been together and happier than some married hetero couples. Probably less of a 'divorce' rate.




In this day and age when MARRIAGE itself is a threatened and laughable insitution, if a couple can make a go at it and really mean their vows, I think they should be allowed to make them. Whether they are gay or straight, blue or purple.




----




I should also note that Greg agreed on some points but not others. He thought that they should be afforded the right to marry, but they shouldn't have the same 'rights' as a married couple would (e.g. tax breaks and ?!) and to me that seems foolish also. There is no 1/2 way on this. It's either they are, or they aren't. There can't be room for mis-interpretation.

 

[winyan]

Bravo, Mara, I concur wholeheartedly!

win

 

[winyan]

AGBF, apparently you and I shared similar feelings growing up. My parents too, eloped, and I had no mother/bride photos either.

I've had and have both male and female gay friends, and though I do poke at them a bit for some of their views, (the epithet 'breeder', being one) I wholeheartedly understand why they feel as they do.

win

 

[MichelleCarmen]

My opinion? hehehe - okay, I think gay couples SHOULD get all benefits of "marriage," like tax benefits and medical insurance and all that through some sort of civil union/ceremony. I don't think they should get married in the same legal sense as men/women. Let me say, I AM NOT Christian, so don't take this as preaching, because I DO NOT AGREE with the Bible on most things an I'm only discussing in theory . . .but, the whole gay marrital ceremony seems contradictory in that the Bible firmly believes that being gay is a sin and it seems an oximoronic phase, "gay marriage," when gays are uniting in this way under a belief system that rejects them. Seems they should have a different more accepting system!

Michelle

 

[AGBF]

----------------
On 3/2/2004 6:20:57 PM MichelleCarmen wrote:

"...only but, the whole gay marrital ceremony seems contradictory in that the Bible firmly believes that being gay is a sin and it seems an oximoronic phase, 'gay marriage,' when gays are uniting in this way under a belief system that rejects them...."


That is a very interesting observation. The only problem I can see in its logic is that marriage is not only a Judeo-Christian institution. It exists in other religions and it exists as a purely societal institution when religion is absent.

Deborah

 

[Nicrez]

Oooh great post AGBF! By the way, where are those pics of your lovely e-ring????! ME WANT!

I was raised SO roman Catholic I start feeling guilty without any motivation! So I have had QUITE a few gay friends, and that's been good. I have actually seemed to get hit on by lesbians a lot when I was younger (but not anymore...?), so I started forming some strange conclusions.




So far, this is what I've got: Everyone needs and deserves someone they love. I don't care what people do in their bedrooms, gay or straight. I don't care if they love someone who's a different race, creed or religion, so why should I care if they are the same sex...? So I say they get all the same rights. What I DON"T get is why this has to be a governmental thing? Why are all these tax breaks and benefits limited to married people? Granted if we all lived in a black and white world, things would be easier, but we don't.




I think people should be taxed at a flat rate (20%), and NO EXCEPTIONS excpet for those making under $20K a year. Students should have a governmental education allotment to spend on any school they desire. If they go to a pricey school, they can apply for scholarships and loans. If they have money left over, good for them! Estate laws should be dictated to FIRST carry by the Will, and then by family. If a person has claimed a life partner (like filing a legal from), they should be given the same estates rights as a wife or husband.




People who are happy and well balanced should be able to adopt children together, gay or straight, and personally, I think some straight couples who adopt children should go through a more stringent process...but that's besides the point....

So why do we even need to marry legally or not? Why does the government need to even have a register of straight marriages...why is this even a LEGAL issue?!




Speak only for what I have learned as a Catholic, they have traditionally believed that it is WRONG to be in a same sex marraige, ONLY around the time of the inception of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Before then, Roman and Greek cultures had a very open and tolerant view of all this.




It is only in the Church's need to buckle down and start "gathering the sheep into the fold" that they decided to set rules for the believer to follow, like birth control issues, abortion issues, same -sex relationships. They becamse master of such things to make sure the population grew, that more Catholics were raised, that more people came to church, and that their power was absolute and concrete in society by these rules...They kept guilt as a motivating factor for people to confess and to "give generously" as a tithe to the church, and favored those who paid, and pleaded to those who didn't pay enough...




Sadly, churches have been corrupted by men, the Bible has been misread from it's allegorical sense, and people misquote things in an effort to fit it into their creeds. I take stock only in anyone who truly wants the happiness of another, and dwells more on their actions than the actions of others. Anyone who feels the need to dictate anyone else's life and enjoyment is someone who need to learn how to be so happy he has no time, nor need to even look around at others...

That's just my $.03....

 

[winyan]

Nic

I agree w/you except in one area.

Anyone who has children, either naturally or by adoption should undergo a stringent training program for a licence.

There are simply too many hurting children.

win

 

[MichelleCarmen]

----------------
On
I think people should be taxed at a flat rate (20%), and NO EXCEPTIONS excpet for those making under $20K a year. >----------------

Yikes, this could easily drive poor single moms to living on the streets!

Oh and my mom was raised Catholic, so I know guilt all too well

We should start a therapy group here on PS. . .

Michelle

 

[AGBF]

----------------
On 3/5/2004 10:41:56 PM MichelleCarmen wrote:
"Yikes, this could easily drive poor single moms to living on the streets!"



Don't be silly! They will join all the other mothers with children in homeless shelters which will insure that they can no longer work!

 

[Danica]

From your mouth to the Australian Governments ears Nicrez!!!! My DH is on 47% income tax!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chris-uk04]

I don’t think gay marriage will hurt marriage any more than no-fault divorce did. No-fault divorce actually killed the institute of marriage some 30 years ago. Since then, marriage it isn’t taken very seriously. Shouldn’t divorce be limited to the big stuff, like abuse and infidelity? Otherwise, they ought to re-write the vows because they have become nearly ridiculous. Words like “in good times and bad, in sickness and in health” aren’t taken very seriously. How about “until she gets to old, if he never makes enough money”? However, that alone doesn’t justify gay marriage amongst a population that doesn’t want it.

Regarding gay adoption, I think a lot of gay would do a fine job raising a children, but I do feel bad for the kids because they will get tormented in school. That’s not a “may get tormented” it’s “will.” Many kids can be very mean. It will get out that Johnny has two dads and it will cause lots of hardship on them growing up. They may end up resenting their “parents” over it.

 

[fire&ice]

I hope I am not the exception; but, I took (and still take) my vows very seriously, as does my circle of friends.

 

[AGBF]

----------------
On 3/9/2004 10:52:14 AM fire&ice wrote:

I hope I am not the exception; but, I took (and still take) my vows very seriously, as does my circle of friends. ----------------

I take it you didn't write your own vows and include anything trendy when you did? When I got married in 1977 people were vowing some interesting things.

Deborah

 

[Nicrez]

Win, I have to say that I hate seeing children abused, and left alone, but my theory isn't GIVE them away. I say people learn to be responsible for the lives they create or at least BEFORE they create them!!! Childhood is such a precarious time where a child is molded for life, and something like beatings or abuse can go a long way to damage a person for life! I still think anyone looking for children should go through a state sponsored adoption agency, where the couple is analyzed and the child is analysed within that new family for at least 2-4 years. It should NOT be as expensive as it is to get a child who by definition is not wanted...because they ARE wanted but some truly good people can't afford them!!!

Chris, another point, about children being cruel...I have no idea HOW they get this way, but when I grew up we had the "uncool" kids, but it wasn't THAT bad. Honestly. We also never had a kid with two daddies...and considering there are lots of stupid people out there, that could be a problem, but kids are kids.




I remember that used to get teased around 4th grade because I didn't have a Long Island accent (I learned Enlgish from my teachers) and the kids then taught me how to properly say "Frawg, and Mawl..." But that was it. Perhaps, some kids were ignore or left out perhaps, but nowadays kids have so much more power and less means of keeping them well behaved. I have seen children around 7-8 at stores HITTING their parents. If that was me, I'd have flown across the room with a backhand, but lord knows how that would happen now a days. Children divorcing their parents for "mental cruelty" and such...How can one raise a child now adays when everything around them yells "selfish" and "violence" and people spend so little time with these kids to teach them humility and the Golden Rule. That's another post in itself!!!

 

[Mara]

I think the teasing for the kids also may have something to do with where you are geographically located. In certain areas it's probably more socially acceptable for kids to have two moms or dads...like the SF Bay.

I agree on the fact that divorce nowadays is way too easy. There is something to be said for not having to remain in a marriage where you are unhappy, but nowadays the vows don't seem to mean much at all. It's not 'until death do us part' any longer...it's 'until I get tired of you' or 'want to marry my secretary' or 'have a midlife crisis' or 'decide that I settled' or 'just don't feel the passion anymore' or ...the list goes on.




People don't realize that marriage, just like anything in life, takes work to keep it going. So many people don't want to do that work consistently and they just give up.




Honestly, I have often privately thought that divorces should only be granted in times of abuse, infidelity, extreme long-term sickness. But hitting a rough patch? Get some counseling and try to make it work! Don't run to the divorce lawyer at first sign of trouble.

I would like to only do this ONCE.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 3/9/2004 11:46:42 AM AGBF wrote:

----------------
On 3/9/2004 10:52:14 AM fire&ice wrote:

I hope I am not the exception; but, I took (and still take) my vows very seriously, as does my circle of friends. ----------------

I take it you didn't write your own vows and include anything trendy when you did? When I got married in 1977 people were vowing some interesting things.

Deborah
----------------

Nope, but the love, honor & obey part was already cooked. It was love, honor & cherish in my day.

 

[Nicrez]

In another post (Rasing kids) F&I mentioned that women who married older tend to divorce less...I have to agree generally from what I have seen...




My guy and I have been slammed with some of the worst possible luck since we started dating. Honestly, every month it was another crisis or drama we had NO CONTROL over...jobs, personal, financial, etc...I realized something last night as yet another issue cropped up (new job, possibly moving...again) It's so much easier to do thing and arrange your life when you are single. If he had to move back to Manhattan, he would, but then there's the "us" of my wanting to SAVE money, and wanting to get a house at some point...I learned that getting married later on in life may work for some people for a few reasons.




One: when you are young, you generally tend to be a bit confused about your goals and what you want out of life, a marraige, etc. You are still growing up, and so is the person you are with (or married to) My friend and his wife come to mind. She was 19 and he was 23. They have both grown up, but not so much together, and being so different, they don't appreciate eachother for their flaws and virtues. I am not fortune teller, but they seem more distant than any couple I've seen, and they have been married for 5 years now...

But my friends who have gotten married older, seem to know what they want, and generally know if the person they are with fits in their lives, their goals, and future. The saying, "Know thyself" is really the cornerstone it seems of happily finding that person who fits you best. If you don't know yourself, the guy with the long poytail and tatoos who loves motorcycles may seem like prince charming, but when you realize you don't like long hair or motorcycles anymore...what then?




Two: When you are older, I have noticed men and women learn to tone down the attitude in general. There is less to prove because you are comfortable knowing what you know and being who you are. There is also a better grasp on how to communicate and relate to people. I am not saying this is the rule, but something I noticed. My friend had dated a man for 10 years to no avail. One day she left, and she was almost 40. She met the man of her dreams at 42. He had a lovely teen daughter whom she got along with so well, and at 42 got married for the first time. Ten years later, she still rushes home all excited to see her hubby and her "daughter" is going to college around there, and lives with them happily. She told me she found her perfect guy when she finally realized what she wanted, who she was, and didn't need anyone else in the world but herself. /idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif




I think when you are younger, you are still really growing up. And the problem is when you are growing up apart from eachother and being selfish in your troubles. Last night I decided that I was going to adopt all my BF problems, and it will be our maturation process we go through together. I was going to communicate better with him, and be an adult (for once!!) He had problems and I had problems and both of us kept complaining the other one didn't empathize. Now I decided, forget me for a minute and let's share our problems, one person at a time. Help him get over his, than it was my turn. You can't resolve anything when two people are whining!/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif I think people who get married fairly young (twenties) can GROW together, and if that doesn't happen together, that's when the divorces start happening, because each one is whining about a problem, and it's all about "me me me".../idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 3/10/2004 10:30:03 AM Nicrez wrote:



In another post (Rasing kids) F&I mentioned that women who married older tend to divorce less...I have to agree generally from what I have seen...


>----------------

Nope, re-read Nic

We were all married when we were in our early - mid 20's. ...just waited to have kids until later in life. What I am unsure of is the leap of faith to less divorce & why? A number of things enter my mind - being more established emotionally, financially & in a career before having children. Could be as simple as having less stress when the children do come around. Interesting that all are stay at home moms who are married to men who own their own business. All help with said business. ummmmm......gets me thinking even more.

 

[AGBF]

----------------
On 3/10/2004 9:32:37 AM fire&ice wrote:

"Nope, but the love, honor & obey part was already cooked. It was love, honor & cherish in my day."


When Sarah Ferguson married Prince Andrew she chose to say, "love, honor (honour, in her case) and obey". I remember her saying that in the end someone had to make a final decision and that if there were a dispute that couldn't be resolved she would defer to Prince Andrew. Lady Diana had already ditched "obey" in HER vows, so there was certainly no pressure on Sarah to say she would obey.

 

[innerkitten]

In regards to the gay people adopting (or having) children. I think if you're a good parent thats all that matters. There are plenty of children who were raised in traditional mother father house holds and had horrible child hoods and some that had wonderful childhoods. It's all about the parenting skills someone has.
I grew up in San Francisco and one of my best friends in high school lived with her mother and her mothers girlfriend. Anyway she is a totally normal and happy women today. and very proud of her mother.

 

[dberg]

A few of my thoughts -

I don't think the issue that America is focussing on is really about gay marriage. I think it is couched in that langauge - but I think it is really an issue about denying members of society basic human rights. I don't think proposing a ban on gay marriage will protect the sanctity of marriage. If we want to protect the sanctity of marriage perhaps we should outlaw divorce (I don't really think this - I say this tongue in cheek). I also think that the sanctity of marriage is a concern of the church - not the government. As a straight, married woman - I do not feel my marriage is in any way threatened or made a mockery of if my gay friends were to marry.

If we are going to draft amendments to the constitution based on biblical reference to protect marriage I have a couple of suggestions .

These were on another forum I frequent - and are paraphrased - obviously.

Marriage in the United States of America shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5.)

Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)

A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30, 2Cor 6:14)

If a married man dies without children, his brother must marry the widow. If the brother refuses to marry the widow, or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

In lieu of marriage (if there are no acceptable men to be found), a woman shall get her father drunk and have sex with him. (Gen 19:31-36)

 

[Matata]

You go girl!!

Innerkitten too!

 

[Nicrez]

DBerg, HYSTERICAL!!!

 

[Iceman]

It depends on how much you read the Bible. My wife jumps in and said "Church and State, Church and State"!

I said ok , your right it does not matter if it states twice in the bible about this not being right. I know we have thrown the bible out the window and most dont believe anymore, but yet they ask why did God forsake us on 9-11? So, I said ok, I will give you that.

But! The way the courts are and you have to agree.

If you allow anything but a man and a woman to marry here is how it will run and mark my words on it.

You will have Dad's marrying sons
You will have Girls marrying dogs or pets
Ect. Ect. Can you see were Im going.


laugh all you want, when you open this pandora's box , you can not close it.

Our morals are so shot in this country, why not !

 

[Iceman]

While Im fired up

.


I believe in equal rights. So, why are they not equal ?

Why does my son that is going to college have to pay (or we pay) $20,000 a year and others go for free ? Yes, Im european decent and my fathers and forfathers have fought in every war and have paid taxes for the last 200 years and what is equal ? Heck I had to start this business with 2 credit cards because I could not get a loan. I am so tired of not being equal its not funny.

I know you might say "How does that feel" , Guess what Ive never known it not to feel anyother way ! I grew up poor. My
parents past and there parents past should not reflect on my living if we are trying to clean the slate and start all over , right ???

Glad thats off my shoulders

Do you want to talk about paying taxes now

So, I struggle and make something of myself and what is my reward ? More taxes

God Bless

 

[wallace]

ICEMAN YOU HAVE HIT A SERIOUS NERVE. I was three blocks away from WTC center that day- awakened by the horrible noises of mass destruction. I watched people leap, as if by choice, from the top-most of those buildings... can you imagine a heat so insanley painful that you would prefer to jump eighty stories to escape the torture of immolation? While the only thing on your mind is your children will lose a parent? I lost everything and am still recovering from that day. Instead of rejoicing that I was alive, I felt guilty because those people died before me and I could do nothing but watch.

Do not preach about what you do not know. Do not sit on a pulpit and talk to people like they are hypocrites - you say they forsake god all day long while it suits them and then dare to chastise those same people for feeling forsaken by god? I do not feel forsaken by god!!! What does god have to do with it? When did Sept. 11 even enter into it? WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH GAY MARRIAGE???

Only the fact that you are closet bible-beater? You should listen to your wife. As long as you live in America you shall be protected, even from yourself, by the separation of church and state. You say you have European roots - look backe then and see how many died to live ina country with a government that granted them the right to be free from persecution. More than one sad day spetember 2001. It will take more than that to destroy our democracy.

I grew up without parents. That day, I stood in front of those buildings with my heart tearing in pieces for a whole group of children who will have to grow up the way I did. One day, I hope I can help some of those kids, I have a lot of useful information for them about how to grow up alone, without resources, without a Dad to pay 20k a year for their college... Do not cry here!

If it comes down to a kid growing up in loving gay home or alone, in the streets, in an institution - let him have a home! Ask any kid if he'd rather be teased at school or have no home to go to... (we are little more progressive in this area than in England). Maybe all that tax money you pay is going to support those kids who cannot find homes becuase people like you think you have the right to decide how others live. Let me guess, you oppose abortion, too. So, where are those kids going to find homes? Newsflash, hetersexual marriages have declined by 50% while divorce hovers at around 45% (Newsweek, beginning March - I will be more than happy to locate the exact article for you).Why don't you take 'em! Oh, too cheap. Get over growing up poor. You're not the only one - and you're doing ok now. Kids with no homes are poor - but you're too cheap to pay for them yourself...

I would not advocate parentlessness for anyone. It is something we should be protecting the children of our nation from! Not pushing them towards it. And as far as our country goes, the constitution does not explicitly define marriage and therefore, on those grounds alone, it is unconstitutional to deny anyone the right to marry anyone else.

It is people like you who make inequality. You try to define society away into neat little niches where you can look good and be the big shark in a small sea - pointing down on others saying See, they are not as we - when you have created WE. So do not complain here about inequality! It is your monster.

PS - Some people go to college for free becuase the work hard and get scholarships. Some people who can't afford it go to state colleges becuase they cost less and some people have jobs while they are in school. Who is this some people you are describing? Do they happen to have dark skin? Are one of those patriotic americans who conveniently ignores the genocide we committed against the native americans - are these the people it bothers you that they go to school for free? Who put the gun to your head and said you had to pay for your kid to go to a private college? I have news for you, when children turn 18 they considered full adults in the eyes of the law. Every single cent you give them is considered a gift (and therefore is taxable in excess of $20,000 a year) and is purely gratuitous. While it is generous to pay for your son's schooling, it is in no way a legal obligation. Perhaps someone else feels the inequality that they work hard and cannot afford to do that for their kid...?

THere are two things in this world that you cannot escape - DEATH and TAXES. You should feel priveleged that you live in this country becuase you pay less taxes than anyone else living in the first world! And you have the freedome to leave if you do not like it.

 

[Nicrez]

Whoa Wallace!

Breathe....Ok...

I'm sorry, man that made me laugh. I practically did that finger snap with the neck thing and said "you GO girl" to the screen...

but I stopped myself, since I was at the office!!

 

[sumi]

----------------
On 4/22/2004 7:19:56 PM Iceman wrote:



Why does my son that is going to college have to pay (or we pay) $20,000 a year and others go for free ? Yes, Im european decent and my fathers and forfathers have fought in every war and have paid taxes for the last 200 years and what is equal ?


Sure, there's inequality in academics. It's called the smart kids get the scholarships and the others don't. Your son probably didn't get good enough grades, or enroll in enough AP classes for a scholarship. My father's side is of European decent, and on paper I look like I'm full white because of my name (my mother is Japanese, but I did not give any racial information on any college or law school applications). I got scholarship and grants without a problem.

Do you think you deserve some sort of award for paying taxes? It's our duty as a good citizen to pay taxes.

Also, if you're going to say such inflammatory comments, you might as well have the balls to say exactly what you mean instead of hinting here and there.




Heck I had to start this business with 2 credit cards because I could not get a loan. I am so tired of not being equal its not funny.


Dude, who are you trying to blame your poor credit on? If you couldn't get a loan, that is nobody's fault but your own. What happened to self-responsibility instead of trying to find any other excuse, no matter how far fetched?

At any rate, don't you get some satisfaction out of starting a business all on your own?
----------------

 

[sumi]

I just wanted to add that I knew a lot of white kids from high school who got great scholarships and grants from top schools like UCBerkeley, USC, UCLA, Stanford, and MIT.

Even at the grad school level....I went to a top-tier law school in Los Angeles. My law school did not give out many full scholarships. Well, the one person I knew with a full scholarship was a white woman from a very wealthy family. She had worked her butt off in undergrad and had a stellar academic record.