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What ever happened to the work ethic?

The Us is known to be the land of opportunity, and that's why both my parents, and MILLIONS of people come here. They know the chances of being poor in your country in rising up is MUCh slimmer than coming here and making it big.

By the way, Martha Stewart is of Polish descent; both her parents’ families emigrated from Poland. Martha’s maiden name is Kostyra (ko-STY-ra). I don't know if she got scholarships, and although in the end she was taken down from her thrown, she is a perfect example of what the children of immigrants can achieve if they want it enough.

I have a childhood friend who's parents where from a very very poor neighborhood in New York. They both married after college, each being the only ones of their large families to have graduated HS and paid their way through loans and scholarships. They had a child and still worked three jobs each. They had a second child and managed to move to a better neighborhood. When I met my friend, she was one of four children and they lived in one of the wealthiest part of my upper middle class town, and their house was facing the bay.

They opened up a restaurant that grew with their hard work, and their dedication to it. It's the only restaurant in my town to close only one day a year. Christmas. They worked like dogs, and their children went to Syracuse, Penn State, Columbia and Cornell each. Not cheap schools. Most of them were top of their class and worked at the restaurant for tips and had savings for school.

To me, I can only applaud immigrants because it takes such courage to leave your home for an uncertain future. My father literally came to the US with a bottle of wine and a few books. He borrowed money to get a marraige license to marry my mom. To this day, they take trips all over the world and have money in rela estate and investments. If you know how to spend and save smartly, there is NO limit to what you can achieve. I have seen Electrical Engineers with doctorate degrees paint houses. I met a cab driver who was getting his masters in Chemistry, while supporting a wife, her family and their three kids. If you want it, you can do it.

Cry me a river.
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This is the perfect example of why I think the United States is so special:

My husband's parents immigrated from China and Hong Kong. They could not speak any English and didn't know anyone here. They only knew that the US was a place where you could work hard and make something of yourself. They came here with nothing, they were from very modest means. I'm not even sure if my husband's mom ever had proper schooling, they were that poor. They worked SO HARD for so little. My husband's father worked 6 days/week 10+ hours/day as a cook, my husband's mother worked as a maid during the day and made extra income sewing clothes. They were able to save some money, buy and home, and even get their US citizenship. They worked hard to raise their two sons. Today, one son has a PhD, and the other (my husband) is an architect. Both sons went to schools that are ranked among the top 15 in the nation. Can you believe it? In one generation, that family went from poor/no schooling to highly educated with great futures. I think that's pretty cool.

My husband's parent didn't feel any sense of entitlement. They just knew that if they worked very hard, they could make a great future for their children.





you know....I've developed the bad habit of taking thread far away from their original subject.

Hmmmm, let's talk about marriage:

Iceman said:
"If you allow anything but a man and a woman to marry here is how it will run and mark my words on it.

You will have Dad's marrying sons
You will have Girls marrying dogs or pets
Ect. Ect. Can you see were Im going."

So true. I am anxiously waiting for the approval of gay marriage so that I can divorce my husband and marry BOTH my cats. Oh yes! I can marry my pet and be a polygamist at the same time! Whoopi!
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Well, I am not going in to a legal lecture here. But from that statement it is obvious that you are not very familiar with the equal protection clause and the court's treatment of equal protection issues. I just want to add that one of my highest grades ever in law school was constitutional law. And yes, I am bragging a little, but I worked very hard for that darn grade.
 
Hey Sumi, maybe you'll be successful...but then you will have to pay all those taxes!
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I loved your points, and aren't all of us usally taking these posts WAY off topic, anyway? (part of the joy of fully exhausting arguments, then starting NEW ones!)

Actually, if I could, I would KEEP my fiance (as he is a great person to cuddle with), BUT I would also marry my sister's dog Geroge (after I stole him), becuase he is the best spooner out there. Since he's my nephew technically, would that be too creepy? Ahhh, who cares!
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Granted he's got doggy breath, even when it's not morning, but I'll buy lots of mints and mouthwash!
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On 4/23/2004 2:00:50 PM Nicrez wrote:



Actually, if I could, I would KEEP my fiance (as he is a great person to cuddle with), BUT I would also marry my sister's dog Geroge (after I stole him), becuase he is the best spooner out there. Since he's my nephew technically, would that be too creepy? Ahhh, who cares!
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One of my cats is the best spooner ever! There's something so funny about looking over on the bed and realizing that you are cuddling with the cat, that the cat is sleeping like a human with her head on the pillow and blankets up to her shoulders. The other one seriously worships the ground I walk on. I can't decide on one, that's why I would marry both. Technically, they are my baby girls.

But hey, it won't be creepy at all. Don't you know? Fathers will begin to marry their daughters. And girls will marry their pets. So, I think it will be absolutely acceptable if you marry your dog-nephew and I marry my cat-daughters.
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On 4/23/2004 1:50:22 PM sumi wrote:



So true. I am anxiously waiting for the approval of gay marriage so that I can divorce my husband and marry BOTH my cats. Oh yes! I can marry my pet and be a polygamist at the same time! Whoopi!
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Up on my Pulpit
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Don't take the Iceman too seriously. Cory likes to cause trouble. He has a long history. And, we never know if it's him or his son. I just hope his compatriot from the heartland R/A doesn't chime in.
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Really chuckling...... And, off my Pulpit.

First, nice story about your in-laws Sumi. Those stories always warm my hearts.

Second, you guys are young. You really don't know how taxes will *kill* you. People seem to think that the more you make the less taxes you pay. Unless you start moving money off-shore, there aren't many loop holes that people think the wealthy take advantage of. Plus, there is a dirty little secret called Alternative Minimum Taxes. When it was inacted, sometime in the late 70's early 80's (?) is was precisely designed to limit deductions for the higher tax brackets. It did not take into account *inflation*. Who would have ever thought that a starter home could cost what they do now (400K in some metros)? Who would have thought that someone would pay property taxes in the 5 figure? So, deductions are considerably higher now because of inflation. .....you know...just don't get me started. What's that Winston Churchill quote? A conservative in their 20's is heartless. A liberal in middle age is ..something to the effect of living in la-la land.

Anyway, we have a gay marriage thread w/ several pages. Think about it. Iceman has a point (heck has frozen over
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) Really, there is no way to limit who gets "married". Although, I think the line could be drawn with animals, which p*sses me off because if I could marry my dog then I would only have to pay $10.00 for her anti-biotic instead of $68.00.
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But, then this may lead to some sort of emancipation of your pets.
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Also, a good chunk of scholarships are based on need or special interest. It's a touchy subject for those who have college age kids. Truly, middle class white males w/ very good - but not exceptional grades & no aptitude for athletics have it the worst to find money. Those parents really do struggle to put their kids through college. Even the State insitutions are expensive now a day.

Oh, and back to marriage. I agree with it wholeheartly. I'm married.
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On 4/23/2004 4:40:48 PM fire&ice wrote:

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Second, you guys are young. You really don't know how taxes will *kill* you. People seem to think that the more you make the less taxes you pay. Unless you start moving money off-shore, there aren't many loop holes that people think the wealthy take advantage of. Plus, there is a dirty little secret called Alternative Minimum Taxes. When it was inacted, sometime in the late 70's early 80's (?) is was precisely designed to limit deductions for the higher tax brackets. It did not take into account *inflation*. Who would have ever thought that a starter home could cost what they do now (400K in some metros)? Who would have thought that someone would pay property taxes in the 5 figure? So, deductions are considerably higher now because of inflation. .....you know...just don't get me started. What's that Winston Churchill quote? A conservative in their 20's is heartless. A liberal in middle age is ..something to the effect of living in la-la land.

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I had the unfortunate experience of taking an income tax course in law school. There's no way around it, taxes suck. They're awful to study, and awful to pay. They're a necessary evil though.


Thanks for the heads up about Iceman and his son, I didn't know.
 
F&I, I had the taxes debate with my dad once. I complained that my first paycheck was taken entirely for government use and I was so angry that I negotiated a good salary and end up with less than 40% of it! he sat me down and explained as much as he grumbled to be paying someone's salary in taxes for our house, and even more for his wages, he has welcomed this as a way to learn more about our systems, and even tell his accountant how to deduct certain things. He uses tax sheltered accounts and knows how to operate legally within the means of paying "less" and retaining more, BUT what he does pay (which is STILL a lot) he says he is proud to pay. Where he came from, communism allowed NO taxes, just taking away of every freedom we take for granted here. He said if paying taxes was the trade-off, he was glad to have it. Glad to see that "only money" is sacrificed, when in other countries you could be put to death without a trial for rumors. Plus, we DO pay the least amount compared to other countries in Europe and all over... (I still complain, but not seriously)

As for wealthy taking loopholes, I know quite a few people who are wealthy and have the best loopholes. That's why they are wealthy. You think people who are stupid make money and lose it? That's why they can keep it! Money makes money, and even with taxes, trust and investment vehicles with tax shelters, charities and various other things are excellent ways to save on a normal tax rate. My boss is phenomenally wealthy, and every day I am setting up tax sheltering vehicles, so yes it's possible. Plus the litany of accountants at his beck-and-call can prove otherwise!
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I could NOT stop chuckling at your dog comment !!! Hysterical!!! So true that pet meds are ridiculously priced!!! My sister spent more on her dog medically than she ever did on herself or her husband PUT TOGETHER! Few jobs offer pet insurance, but they ARE out there...
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Scholarships: I was considered "white" as my hispanic heritage come out only when people spoke to me in Spanish...not by my name or my "look". I never used it when asked. Even I with top 50 (out of 350) grades I got scholarships. I got involved in extracirrcular, and got some help that way, I wrote essays, said speeches, and went hunting for the many scholarships established that are blind to faith, religion, or race. They are for people who find them, and even hidden under funny names within government departments...Seek and yee shal find. Loans are also available to anyone looking. But I am ALL for making college educations tax deductible, or even government sponsored. In the meanwhile you work with what you have
 
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On 4/23/2004 4:45:15 PM sumi wrote:

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On 4/23/2004 4:40:48 PM fire&ice wrote:

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They're awful to study, and awful to pay. They're a necessary evil though.


Thanks for the heads up about Iceman and his son, I didn't know.
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Death & Taxes! The only thing you can count on.

We do wub the Caveman...oops I mean Iceman. Actually, his stance is unpopular; yet, I enjoy hearing it. To me, it's kind of maddening yet refreshingly not PC.
 
I think any two adults in love and wanting to get married should be allowed to, and that means in the legal sense too. Why shouldn't two gay people be able to get married and have all the benefits and responsibilities a heterosexual couple have?

I believe people have the right to pursuit happiness as long as they don't hurt other innocent bystanders in their pursuit. Drink yourself to the point of getting poisoned, I don't care, but please call a cab or have a sober friend drive you. Smoke whatever you want, just don't give me secondhand smoke. (Yeah, I'm a spoiled Californian.
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I'm not against gay marriage.

(Going OT like many do on most posts, I think there should be a law requiring potential parents to take parenting classes and people wanting to get married to have premarital counseling. But I don't rule the world!
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What would have been "refreshingly un-PC" would have been to just say what he meant outrightly without hinding behind some psuedo-euphimism.
 
I've just been catching up on my reading here. Wallace, I love your contributions. You are a person after my own heart.

What brought you to the World Trade Center on September 11? Do you work or live nearby or was it a fluke: just happening to have a meeting there that day?

Deborah
 
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On 4/23/2004 4:40:48 PM fire&ice wrote:

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On 4/23/2004 1:50:22 PM sumi wrote:



So true. I am anxiously waiting for the approval of gay marriage so that I can divorce my husband and marry BOTH my cats. Oh yes! I can marry my pet and be a polygamist at the same time! Whoopi!
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I just hope his compatriot from the heartland R/A doesn't chime in.
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I have a large can of Midwest Whupass at the ready and I'm not afraid to open it up on you!!

And I don't like being lumped in with Caveman. My spelling is much better.
 
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On 5/4/2004 11:44:00 AM Rank Amateur wrote:

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On 4/23/2004 4:40:48 PM fire&ice wrote:

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I have a large can of Midwest Whupass at the ready and I'm not afraid to open it up on you!!

And I don't like being lumped in with Caveman. My spelling is much better.

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Hey, I always say "bring it on"! Yes, your spelling is excellent.
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And, your not the least bit scared that I actually tend to agree with your position. Scares the heck out of me.
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Maybe I'm a closet conservative.
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Hi, R/A-

I haven't seen or heard from you lately. Am I just here less or are you posting less...or both? How are the children?

Deborah
 
Still lurking about.
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I think there are plenty of heterosexuals who have screwed up marriage and/or the rearing of children, I do not see how a homosexual couple could do any worse at it and I can see where they also would have the oppurtunity to do it better. So why not let them try too?! I don't care what any bible says about it because we aren't going to know who is *right* until we are dead. I don't think that one can look for G-d in every detail of what happens in a life. My great grandfather used to say that if G-d was worrying about whether he was getting on a bus without tripping, he would be concerned that G-d was having a time management issue and needed to do a little prioritizing of what is important and what is trivial. Not to say that the WTC issue is akin to missing a step on a bus, but I think that we can't decide where G-d is at every turn, nor assume abandonment when something in our lives goes so terribly wrong. I suppose some of this comes from my belief that G-d can make mistakes. Since humans were created in the image of G-d, I feel that G-d, like humans, can screw up too. Look at how many times G-d got called onto the carpet by humans in the Old Testament. My belief is I don't think G-d wants us to have G-d think for us at all times. We need to take some responsibility here on earth. This is my own belief and does not necessarily reflect those beliefs of Pricescope nor it's members.
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As for kids who tease, my experience is that kids model adult behavior so if adults learned to be kinder in word and deed, their children mostly will do the same. Don't even get my started on my soap box about how so many parents have abandoned parenting and look to outside influences as to why their children's behavior is undesirable.
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Babs,

I have been working for a family service agency in a city you know well. I wasn't able to get a school social work job. Too many moms like me out there wanting to work school hours, I guess.

Deb ;-)
 
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On 5/18/2004 10:31:45 AM babblingal wrote:

I think there are plenty of heterosexuals who have screwed up marriage and/or the rearing of children, I do not see how a homosexual couple could do any worse at it and I can see where they also would have the oppurtunity to do it better. So why not let them try too?! ....

As for kids who tease, my experience is that kids model adult behavior so if adults learned to be kinder in word and deed, their children mostly will do the same. Don't even get my started on my soap box about how so many parents have abandoned parenting and look to outside influences as to why their children's behavior is undesirable.
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Yeah, it's nice to say that if adults acted kinder, children in the care of gay couples wouldn't get harrased. If adults acted kinder there wouldn't be war either. However, the reality of it is that they don't and kids are mean. The adopted children of gays will be severely harrased in school. No feelgood rhetoric about being nicer will solve the problem.
 
If the parents of all children were less vocal about their prejudices in *front* of their children, children would be less likely to absorb these prejudices.

I still blame the parents for passing on such phobias.

win
 
You're correct about what parents pass on to their children Win. We hear a lot of talk about learning to accept the differences between us but we don't hear much about how to help people do that. I'd like to see more diversity training in schools and in the private and public employment sectors. Not all diversity training is equal. One of the best models I've seen (and I've been trained as a trainer by this organization) is offered by the National Coalition Building Institute. The best place to begin welcoming diversity and overcoming oppression is at home. I hope that all of you who are open to diversity will encourage the leaders of any groups to which you belong -- be it work, church, school -- to implement diversity training within those groups. It's a worthwhile endeavor even if you think your group is free of prejudice.
 
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On 5/28/2004 8:15:42 AM chris-uk04 wrote:

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No feelgood rhetoric about being nicer will solve the problem. ----------------


I am not talking about "feel good rhetoric", I am speaking of people taking responsibility for the way in which they choose to behave and the way in which they continue to propagate fears and hatred thru their own behavioral choices. In our society, there is a decline in personal acceptance of responsibility, we want to put the blame on everyone else. If people would make the individual choice not to put up with the mistreatment of others, then maybe some of these kids would have a chance not to be teased. Bullies need to be held accountable for their actions, and more often than not the parents of these bullies are defending their rights to be bullies.
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On 5/28/2004 11:49:37 AM babblingal wrote:

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....In our society, there is a decline in personal acceptance of responsibility, we want to put the blame on everyone else. If people would make the individual choice not to put up with the mistreatment of others, then maybe some of these kids would have a chance not to be teased. Bullies need to be held accountable for their actions, and more often than not the parents of these bullies are defending their rights to be bullies.
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That is well said.
 
I wanted to get my $.02 in on this subject. Hope it makes sense....

First of all, we won't have people marrying their pets or their vaccuum cleaners or anything ridiculous like that because as far as I know, my cats can't sign a marriage license, and neither can my vaccuum. And even if they could sign their names on an official document, I doubt they'd understand what they're doing in the first place, rendering the "marriage" invalid.

Second, because we have incest laws in this country (state laws? federal laws?right? I'm not a lawyer!!), fathers cannot legally marry their daughters. However, if they actually can (I'm REALLY not a lawyer!!), inbreeding depression (but I am a biologist!) will likely occur with any offspring they produce, and the kids will go on Springer. End of discussion.

Third, I completely agree with dberg on this - If we are to model American marriage after biblical marriage, we must take all aspects of biblical marriage and legally apply them to our lives. However, since the United States of America was founded on the premise of religious freedom, it is unconstitutional to legally enforce these biblical laws. Forcing non-Christians, non-Jews, and other groups to follow specifically Biblical laws, rules, and regulations impinges on personal freedom. I wouldn't want to be legally required to follow Muslim or Buddhist or any other strictly religious traditions in my personal life, so why should we enforce Christianity onto Muslims and Buddhists, etc? An important disclaimer: There are some virtually universal morality issues found in the bible that should be made constitutional, namely not killing people and not stealing (but let's NOT get started on abortion!!). However, we should clearly not create laws simply because the bible says so. Otherwise, McDonald's would have to make their entire menu kosher and we'll all have to keep pigeons and goats for sacrifice!

Fourth, these "activist judges", as the scholarly Mr. Prez calls them, are simply doing their jobs! It is not the job of the majority-elected legislators in this country to protect the rights of the minority; it is the judicial system's job to do that. By "checking and balancing" the legislative and executive branches, the judicial branch makes sure that nobody's constitutional freedoms are being compromised by what the majority decides to do. But maybe Dubya didn't learn about that at Yale and Harvard...

Fifth, what would Jesus do? If you look at Jesus' life, you would learn that above all, Jesus loved people regardless of their sins! He saved Mary Magdalene the prostitute from being stoned to death, as prescribed by the Jewish law. He touched the hands and heads of lepers and other people who were "unclean" (menstruating women as one example), which was forbidden by the Jewish law. When the Pharisees asked Him why He associated with sinners, He replied in parable form, (paraphrased, of course) "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, it is the ill." Jesus saw past the earthly rules and regulations and instead saw that by loving and honoring people, we love and honor God; Are the "Christian compassionate conservatives" in the world so much greater than Jesus that they can go against his example and teachings?

Finally, what exactly is this "sanctity of marriage" we hear about so often? What does it mean? If marriage is so "holy" "saintly" "sacred" and "inviolable" (Oxford Dictionary synonyms for sanctity), then why is it possible to be married anywhere outside of a church or religious system? If we are to "sanctify" marriage, we should just invalidate all marriages conducted outside the church (the organization, not the building
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)! In fact, if marriage is so sanctified, then why does the Catholic Church grant annulments? If the "sanctity of marriage" is to be maintained, we must have only religious marriages, no divorce for any reason, no annulments (Sorry Britney Spears!!), no cheating (violations of the sanctity of marriage), and of course, no marriage for people who choose not to procreate or physically cannot. Like dberg, this is said tongue-in-cheek, but I hope you see my point amidst the flaming rhetoric!
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In conclusion, it is clear that those who would outlaw gay marriage in order to protect the sanctity of marriage have neither demonstrated how gay marriage would destroy that "sanctity" nor how allowing gays to legally marry would damage their own or anybody else's marriages. Since this definition of marriage causes nobody harm, it is simply unconstitutional to withold the rights and priviledges of legal marriage to any reasonable subset of people in this country, gays included.
 
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On 10/1/2004 4:40:55 PM JCJD wrote:



"and of course, no marriage for people who choose not to procreate or physically cannot."


Well...I'm not sure that the Bible prohibits marriage and sexual relations between people who cannot procreate. In fact, doesn't it teach that with God's will interesting people *can*, most miraculously, procreate? I am thinking of Abraham and Sarah :-).

Deborah
 
Sorry, you're right Deborah. That stems from my upbringing in the Catholic Church, which does not support gay marriage stemming from the fact that two males or two females cannot biologically have children, although it does support the marriage of post-menopausal women and doesn't conduct fertility tests during premarital counseling
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Thanks for the correction!!
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JCJD
 
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