Mass shooting du jour

[whitewave]

You and I are on the same page, Callie. I wrote above, "only crimes by Arabs are terrorism according to President Trump".

That really has to change, you know. We The People cannot let Trump and Paul Ryan and the other Republicans get away with it forever. It is not only racist, it is grammatically incorrect.

I mean, the crime was, actually, committed by a terrorist and Trump is not the Issue Definer. Trump is not allowed to say who is and who is not a terrorist. Terrorists are people who commit acts of terror...like...um...committing acts of mass murder.

AGBF

Terrorism is short for "radical Islamic terrorism"

Yes, this invokes terror, but it wasn't politically or ideology related.

 

[Calliecake]

He could have purchased his gun at a gun show @Arkteia There are many loopholes at these shows and it is easy to purchase a gun at them.

 

[whitewave]

I will try to be restrained because the gun issue makes me see red. As far as I know, the law enforcement community is, in fact, pretty split on the loosening of gun laws/regulations. For the most part, it makes their jobs a lot harder.

I am guessing that you've never been in a mass shooting situation, Karl, and I hope you (and none of us ever are) but two things I think I can promise you are that it will not be like you think it is and you will not behave the way you think you will.

Back when I was a young reporter, I was assigned to the police beat in a city--this was back before the guns people routinely carried were the kind that could kill so many people in such a short time. I spent a lot of time riding around in the back of a cop car, listening to and talking with numerous LE officers that year. And you know who panics in a shooting situation? Law enforcement. Trained, armed, prepared law enforcement. Not sharpshooters and swat teams who come in when the situation is already established and have a seat outside the table, but the men and women who come in in the middle or are there at the outset of a situation. I've never been in this kind of situation, but I have been on the periphery of some unfolding things. In much lesser situations than this, there is chaos and panic, people scream and trample, distract, it can be hard to tell who is the originator, electric lights are lost, entrances are blocked. More guns means more chance of innocent people ending up in the crossfire.

IMO, 99.9 times out of 100, the belief that your own cool head and expert marksmanship will prevail are misguided- like watching Federer on TV and assuming you could hold your own against him because you won the cup at your local tennis club.

I'm just going to say that knowing someone who was in the Las Vegas shooting and knowing personally some LE, IMO you are wrong.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[whitewave]

He could have purchased his gun at a gun show @Arkteia There are many loopholes at these shows and it is easy to purchase a gun at them.

I will be interested to know where and how he attained his weapon.

 

[Calliecake]

New tidbit: it was his ex-wife's family's parish church.

My guess is the wife wanted out of the marriage. He went crazy. Just another day in America.

He also had pictures of his assault rife that he called a bad b$tch
He was obvious he very proud to have that gun.

ETA. They just announced this was a domestic situation. Also if we want to help we should pray.

 

[whitewave]

Two locals shot him, wounded him, and chased him at 95 miles per hour before running him off the road where he killed himself:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5052815/Hero-tackled-armed-shooter-left-church.html

 

[Matata]

Yes God protects us.

Obviously not, as the evidence proves. Or maybe your god is capricious -- directing bullets willy nilly in his mysterious way just for funnsies. Or maybe those who died in this latest incident were less worthy believers than the rest. Or maybe, if the devil is the one responsible for such actions, christians should be praying to it because it is obviously more powerful than god. Or maybe there is no god, which makes more sense than having a god to whom people pray only to have their prayers fall on deaf ears.

 

[whitewave]

I will try to be restrained because the gun issue makes me see red. As far as I know, the law enforcement community is, in fact, pretty split on the loosening of gun laws/regulations. For the most part, it makes their jobs a lot harder.

I am guessing that you've never been in a mass shooting situation, Karl, and I hope you (and none of us ever are) but two things I think I can promise you are that it will not be like you think it is and you will not behave the way you think you will.

Back when I was a young reporter, I was assigned to the police beat in a city--this was back before the guns people routinely carried were the kind that could kill so many people in such a short time. I spent a lot of time riding around in the back of a cop car, listening to and talking with numerous LE officers that year. And you know who panics in a shooting situation? Law enforcement. Trained, armed, prepared law enforcement. Not sharpshooters and swat teams who come in when the situation is already established and have a seat outside the table, but the men and women who come in in the middle or are there at the outset of a situation. I've never been in this kind of situation, but I have been on the periphery of some unfolding things. In much lesser situations than this, there is chaos and panic, people scream and trample, distract, it can be hard to tell who is the originator, electric lights are lost, entrances are blocked. More guns means more chance of innocent people ending up in the crossfire.

IMO, 99.9 times out of 100, the belief that your own cool head and expert marksmanship will prevail are misguided- like watching Federer on TV and assuming you could hold your own against him because you won the cup at your local tennis club.

I wil also add, I believe that at some point people will see reason and realise that our right to live in a society where we don't have to fear for our children's lives every time they go to a movie or a mall (or school) is a greater right than that of people to carry weapons of mass destruction (which is what these guns are) in their pockets.

Also, you are conflating fear with panic. The two are not the same.

Fear is healthy and natural.

Panic is a physiological reaction that isn't helpful and renders a person ineffective.

 

[Calliecake]

I will be interested to know where and how he attained his weapon.

Why? What difference would it make? Our country isn't going to do a damn thing to make real changes to prevent this from happening again and again. My state refused to ban bump stocks on Oct 27. That was less than a month after the Vegas shooting.

 

[House Cat]

I am going to take a bit of a stab at this from my understanding of God’s protection.

People try to rationalize God’s protection in the way of how one human would protect another. God isn’t human. It is possible that the protection extended by God is beyond our understanding.

Next, just because people are allowed to die does not mean that God isn’t protecting these individuals. People who believe in God believe in Heaven. Dying isn’t the end of life, it’s the beginning of eternal life.

The level of suffering on this earth is not due to God. It is due to free will. God gave human beings free will as a means for choosing to do the right thing. When someone chooses to do the right thing as a product of free will, it is more valuable than if they had been programmed to act with good morals at all times. Unfortunately, this also gives people the ability to choose badly. This ability to make the wrong choice causes us great suffering. I don’t know the value of it except to say that it greatly contrasts the good choices. This is the concept I have the hardest time with because I don’t like it.

To argue that God didn’t protect those people in the church doesn’t reallly work. He may not have protected them from an evil person’s free will, but he did bring them to heaven.

The protection is there.

I know...it isn’t our definition of protection or how we would want to be protected while we are here.

 

[whitewave]

He bought the gun at Academy Sports:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ter-bought-rifle-despite-assault-charges.html

 

[whitewave]

Why? What difference would it make? Our country isn't going to do a damn thing to make real changes to prevent this from happening again and again. My state refused to ban bump stocks on Oct 27. That was less than a month after the Vegas shooting.

I agree nothing will be done.

 

[Matata]

Also, you are conflating fear with panic. The two are not the same.

Fear is healthy and natural.

Panic is a physiological reaction that isn't helpful and renders a person ineffective.

Not accurate. Panic is the extreme form of fear. "
Panic
This is essentially an extension of fear, but in an extreme form; feeling totally overwhelmed by the physical and mental feelings of it. It happens when faced with sudden life threatening danger at this very moment now. The panic response – ‘red alert’ – is vital in this situation because it gets the body instantly into the optimum state for survival; getting ready to fight or flee, or sometimes even freeze.

Panic is more often experienced in the context of a panic attack. In a truly dangerous situation the physical effects of panic are put to good use fighting or fleeing, and the person would be focusing on doing just that; not thinking about how they were feeling. It’s only when panic strikes for no apparent reason, that a person has chance to become aware of its many physical sensations."

http://www.psychology-solution.com/anxiety/worry-anxiety-fear-panic

 

[whitewave]

Not accurate. Panic is the extreme form of fear. "
Panic
This is essentially an extension of fear, but in an extreme form; feeling totally overwhelmed by the physical and mental feelings of it. It happens when faced with sudden life threatening danger at this very moment now. The panic response – ‘red alert’ – is vital in this situation because it gets the body instantly into the optimum state for survival; getting ready to fight or flee, or sometimes even freeze.

Panic is more often experienced in the context of a panic attack. In a truly dangerous situation the physical effects of panic are put to good use fighting or fleeing, and the person would be focusing on doing just that; not thinking about how they were feeling. It’s only when panic strikes for no apparent reason, that a person has chance to become aware of its many physical sensations."

http://www.psychology-solution.com/anxiety/worry-anxiety-fear-panic

I was retelling what my friend, a retired general, told me in terms of fear vs panic.


From the article about the good neighbors: "He added that he did not 'freak out' about the situation, adding: 'It was an act now, ask questions later kind of deal.'

To say that LE "panic" to me means they freak out. Trepidatious, sure. Fear, sure. LE panicking? Not from my LE friends who are former military.

 

[monarch64]

Oh, well, your FRIENDS SAID IT SO IT MUST BE TRUE. Thank you for that anecdotal "evidence." LE panics all the damn time. Read one of the who knows how many stories about people getting shot and killed because an officer panicked. It happens, and to deny it is being part of the problem.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Oh, well, your FRIENDS SAID IT SO IT MUST BE TRUE. Thank you for that anecdotal "evidence." LE panics all the damn time. Read one of the who knows how many stories about people getting shot and killed because an officer panicked. It happens, and to deny it is being part of the problem.

I literally just watched a video of a cop having a massive panic attack while pointing a gun at an unarmed woman.

 

[monarch64]

Whitewave, I’m sorry. I don’t mean anything personal with my comment to you. I’m very frustrated over all of this and not expressing myself very nicely. I hope you don’t take personal offense to my words, but if you do I understand and I apologize.

 

[whitewave]

Oh, well, your FRIENDS SAID IT SO IT MUST BE TRUE. Thank you for that anecdotal "evidence." LE panics all the damn time. Read one of the who knows how many stories about people getting shot and killed because an officer panicked. It happens, and to deny it is being part of the problem.

The good neighbors shot the guy IN BETWEEN his body armor.

Amazing shot.

Do you want to argue about what jaddon said about people unable to keep their cool in a mass shooting to be effective in taking down the perp?

Can you not see how that is NOT true here?

Someone had enough presence of mind and didn't panic who was able to make an EXCELLENT and PRECISE shot. And this guy wasn't trained military or police.

 

[monarch64]

I’m not arguing anything about the TX shooter. Im arguing against your point that LE don’t panic.

 

[whitewave]

Whitewave, I’m sorry. I don’t mean anything personal with my comment to you. I’m very frustrated over all of this and not expressing myself very nicely. I hope you don’t take personal offense to my words, but if you do I understand and I apologize.

Ok. I see. Yes, it is super frustrating to see yet another mass shooting getting swept away.

I am not saying LE don't experience after shocks. My very best friend's husband is finishing up his paid leave with his le department in NH because of a shootout, the resulting investigation, he was cleared but developed PTSD and so he was able to take leave to deal with that. He is former military with two middle east tours. It certainly can catch up with them and in the very least, LE deserve better pay.

 

[whitewave]

Here is the helpful armed citizen, a plumber and biker, who shot the perp in between his body armor. For all we know, after exiting he church, the perp was going to shoot up plenty more people.

*****this is not to say I agree with current gun laws or that it takes away from how many and those who died. It is merely a fact that an armed citizen made an amazingly precise shot and wounded the gunman.

 

[Arkteia]

I am not going to share specifics but there are members in law enforcement and IL has a CCW law.
Carry is also legal in a private dwelling without a CCW which a Church is considered.

Kenny I know you don't like discussing religion so out of respect I avoid it with you but you directly asked so I will answer.

Yes God protects us.
Part of that protection is living in a country were the right to self defense is a right and the tools are available to do so.
Part of that protection is Men and Woman who are willing to put their life at stake to protect others.
It does not mean that nothing bad will ever happen to the people there.

Karl, and this is the beginning of a serious problem.

Your god protects YOU. So you are the righteous.

I am not even going to start here...But isn't it up to God? How can a human know God's plan? Hubris, hubris and hubris.

 

[jaaron]

Ok. I see. Yes, it is super frustrating to see yet another mass shooting getting swept away.

I am not saying LE don't experience after shocks. My very best friend's husband is finishing up his paid leave with his le department in NH because of a shootout, the resulting investigation, he was cleared but developed PTSD and so he was able to take leave to deal with that. He is former military with two middle east tours. It certainly can catch up with them and in the very least, LE deserve better pay.

I did not mean to imply that every law enforcement official panics every time. I meant that it happens, and it happens more often than you'd think. I mean, an awfully high percentage of those unarmed black men who get shot and killed have been shot precisely because LE panicked. And I know the difference between panic and fear. I've been in some pretty hairy situations and I've seen it-- particularly with a rapidly unfolding confusing situation.

 

[stracci2000]

Obviously not, as the evidence proves. Or maybe your god is capricious -- directing bullets willy nilly in his mysterious way just for funnsies. Or maybe those who died in this latest incident were less worthy believers than the rest. Or maybe, if the devil is the one responsible for such actions, christians should be praying to it because it is obviously more powerful than god. Or maybe there is no god, which makes more sense than having a god to whom people pray only to have their prayers fall on deaf ears.

Like, like,like,like, like x 1000

 

[partgypsy]

Whitewave, it is certainly good news that the guy got chased and shot, but it was after he shot up a church and killed 28 people. What is chilling, is that with these types of guns, you can have a huge body count, within a span of minutes. for every time a gun prevented (usually a nother gun-related) crime, guns have been used in more murders, suicides, accidental deaths, and yes mass murders. More guns does not make me feel more safe. What do we want? For the US to end up in a state like Mad Max, where everyone is armed and on the defense, just to survive? That's no kind of life.

I think at minimum, there should be background checks and 3 day waiting periods to purchase a gun. And that these background checks are not formalities but actually worked. This guy checked "no" he didn't have any reason not to get a gun, even though he was court martialed and dishonorably discharged due to domestic violence. As they are currently done, background checks are a joke.

 

[ksinger]

Obviously not, as the evidence proves. Or maybe your god is capricious -- directing bullets willy nilly in his mysterious way just for funnsies. Or maybe those who died in this latest incident were less worthy believers than the rest. Or maybe, if the devil is the one responsible for such actions, christians should be praying to it because it is obviously more powerful than god. Or maybe there is no god, which makes more sense than having a god to whom people pray only to have their prayers fall on deaf ears.

My personal classic quote on that topic (yes, I know I'm weird to have so many of the darn things. I'm a collector, what can I say - when something speaks to me or distills a topic particularly well, I save it off for future reference. Digging through books ala "Oh man, I need to find that great line I read!" is too tiresome.)

Excerpt about theodicy - From Women and Evil by Nell Noddings

"If we believe that God is all-good and all-powerful, and if at the same time we see that there really is evil in the world, we find it difficult to understand God as both giver of ethics and creator. “The clearer God becomes as legislator,” Ricoeur says, “the more obscure he becomes as creator,” and vice versa. We are inclined to blame God for a lack of ethicality. As we have seen, however, the blame is usually resisted. The idea of God as evil is close to unthinkable and, once thought, is hard to sustain. Only a minor god can be evil -- surely not the one we worship. People long after a good god as children long after a good parent. As Ricoeur points out, “There begins the foolish business of trying to justify God: theodicy is born.”

The Augustinian tradition provided the main line of thinking on theodicy, but the Greek Epicureans had already posed the problem as a trilemma in response to Stoic attempts at theodicy: if God could have prevented evil and did not, he is malevolent; if God would have prevented evil and did not, he is impotent; if God could not and would not, why call him God? The answer might be political. An all-good, all-powerful authority was thought to have considerably more clout than a loving, fallible parent-figure. "

 

[t-c]

Edit: oh what's the point. Nothing will change. Nothing.

Sad but true. All this shooting will do is increase gun sales.

 

[t-c]

I will try to be restrained because the gun issue makes me see red. As far as I know, the law enforcement community is, in fact, pretty split on the loosening of gun laws/regulations. For the most part, it makes their jobs a lot harder.

I am guessing that you've never been in a mass shooting situation, Karl, and I hope you (and none of us ever are) but two things I think I can promise you are that it will not be like you think it is and you will not behave the way you think you will.

Back when I was a young reporter, I was assigned to the police beat in a city--this was back before the guns people routinely carried were the kind that could kill so many people in such a short time. I spent a lot of time riding around in the back of a cop car, listening to and talking with numerous LE officers that year. And you know who panics in a shooting situation? Law enforcement. Trained, armed, prepared law enforcement. Not sharpshooters and swat teams who come in when the situation is already established and have a seat outside the table, but the men and women who come in in the middle or are there at the outset of a situation. I've never been in this kind of situation, but I have been on the periphery of some unfolding things. In much lesser situations than this, there is chaos and panic, people scream and trample, distract, it can be hard to tell who is the originator, electric lights are lost, entrances are blocked. More guns means more chance of innocent people ending up in the crossfire.

IMO, 99.9 times out of 100, the belief that your own cool head and expert marksmanship will prevail are misguided- like watching Federer on TV and assuming you could hold your own against him because you won the cup at your local tennis club.

I wil also add, I believe that at some point people will see reason and realise that our right to live in a society where we don't have to fear for our children's lives every time they go to a movie or a mall (or school) is a greater right than that of people to carry weapons of mass destruction (which is what these guns are) in their pockets.

Well, we see a lot of that with police shooting incidents, don't we? The policemen were so scared that they just fire their guns even on clearly unarmed people. That's what they said during their testimony, anyway.

 

[Calliecake]

Sad but true. All this shooting will do is increase gun sales.

Which is just another reason why we need the ACA. We are perfectly content sitting back and letting people shot each other. Shouldn't we be perfectly content with helping to get them well. The medical bills of people affected by gun violence I imagine would be astronomical. And lets be honest, getting shot could happen to any of us at any time. Just an every day occurance in the USA.

The Texas Attoney General said hours after the shooting that more people should bring guns to church. Lovely!

 

[t-c]

I have a question. It's related, but not quite on topic. I'm happy to start a new thread if that's a better option.

When someone is shot and injured what happens to them medically? I know there is ACA and I'm under the impression that healthcare in the US has improved though I believe it's still insufficient and expensive. The BBC online reports a child having been shot 4 times and currently undergoing surgery. Let's say an incident like this causes life changing injuries. Who pays for the medical care and coverage required? Before the ACA would it have been considered a pre-existing condition when applying for different coverage in the future? Did the ACA change that and how?

Healthcare insurance had improved under the ACA in that "preexisting conditions" cannot be the basis of denial of coverage. However, iirc Trump recently signed an order that allows for short-term cheaper insurance plans and removes this requirement to cover preexisting conditions in 2018. So...even if a person has insurance now, when they renew their coverage next year, insurance companies can exclude coverage of those preexisting conditions altogether -- not even with a waiting period.

As for who pays for medical care -- the ultimate responsibility is always on the individual. However, for publicised tragedies like these, very often there are charity funds established to help victims, either through church, GoFundMe pages, etc... Unfortunately, that really isn't adequate for long-term costs, because people lose interest or forget, and contributions eventually dry up. The Las Vegas shooter seems to have had some money, so there will likely be a lawsuit to claim some or all of his estate for the victims (and lawyers), but that will have to be split across a lot of victims, so I doubt that will be adequate either. Basically victims are screwed many times over in the US.