Maybe the wait is because I'm from a different religion?

[Pandora II]

My husband is Jewish, I am not - but we are both staunch atheists and he refuses to take an interest in his family background. I'm the one who does the most to make sure we take part in family events and took over researching the family history (at which point I discovered that he took no interest because he finds it too upsetting - his family are German Jewish and many did not survive WWII).

The family spans the whole range... from bacon eating atheists like my ILs, to Liberal to strict Orthodox.

I am 100% against circumcision and fortunately so was his mother. There are a growing number of Jews who don't believe that circumcision is necessary to 'be' Jewish.

As we are both atheists, we don't plan to bring our daughter up in any religion. However I do want her to know about her roots and it is a bit different for her to learn about her Jewish background than about her English/Scottish background as being Jewish is about a lot more than going to church at Christmas and Easter. As far as festivals in general go, we will celebrate whatever is usual to celebrate here.

So it's been a pretty easy thing for DH and I - we were also both in our mid-30s when we got married and what mummy or daddy thought wasn't an issue anymore!

One of my close friends married a guy who wasn't Jewish and half her parents's friends and some of her relatives refused to go to the wedding. It caused terrible trauma and arguments - her sister and 2 brothers have said that they will ONLY date other Jews from now on because they don't want a similar situation. They are bringing their children up as Jewish. He still eats bacon sandwiches and prawns, but not at home!

My husband's cousin refused to attend his sister's wedding because she married outside the faith and his wife still won't be in the same room as them (the rest of the family think she's a nasty bigot so no great loss!)

I think it can be overcome as an issue but only if you both know exactly how you feel about things now and in the future and are prepared to discuss them in advance. Also be prepared for strong feelings once you have a child... atheist me rather hankers after my daughter being the angel in the Nativity play and singing xmas carols!

 

[MisakiChan]

I'm sorry I can't quite offer you a personal experience on this one. However, it seems only natural that you would want to know whether religion is keeping him from proposing.
My personal take would go smth like this. Talk to him. Be open, frank about what you want and/or expect from this relationship. Tell him feelings don't mind the Higher Power and listen to what he has to say. If he doesn't seem open to a conversation about this, well that should be a red flag.
If you think you should wait a little bit more before talking to him, by all means do, but if I were you, I'd make clear where I stand as soon as possible. You shouldn't be afraid regarding your future together if you two are to get engaged and married.
Let us know how it goes!

 

[berry731]

I am a conservative Jew and I agree with what you are saying. However, I do know from personal experience many Jewish guys that end up marrying out of the religion. In most cases the man was reformed or grew up in a household where there was not much jewish tradition or the family just didn't care to continue the religion to influence their children.

It sounds like this is not the case for you. I understand the high pressure situation you are in which is why I never let myself be in that position in the first place. It is not your fault if your bf led you to believe in the very beginning that religion was not of utmost importance to him.

In my case, I knew it would bother my family (especially my father) to fall in love with someone who was not jewish and I stopped it from the very beginning because I didn't want to allow myself to fall in love with someone if it could lead to my family disowning me...especially when I knew there were plenty of other men I could fall in love with. It's sort of like I was just trying to prevent a situation that could potentially lead to a problem from occurring later on down the road.

Anyway, in my opinion and in the jewish religion converting is not easy. In fact, a full conversion generally will attempt to dissuade you from converting to prove that you want to convert for the correct reasons. It is possible that overtime his family will learn to love you more if you encourage your children to incorporate a jewish lifestyle into the home. However you are not at that point yet. You need to have an open and honest conversation with him and his family. The least you deserve is the truth.

 

[snow12]

I am a conservative Jew and I agree with what you are saying. However, I do know from personal experience many Jewish guys that end up marrying out of the religion. In most cases the man was reformed or grew up in a household where there was not much jewish tradition or the family just didn't care to continue the religion to influence their children.

It sounds like this is not the case for you. I understand the high pressure situation you are in which is why I never let myself be in that position in the first place. It is not your fault if your bf led you to believe in the very beginning that religion was not of utmost importance to him.

In my case, I knew it would bother my family (especially my father) to fall in love with someone who was not jewish and I stopped it from the very beginning because I didn't want to allow myself to fall in love with someone if it could lead to my family disowning me...especially when I knew there were plenty of other men I could fall in love with. It's sort of like I was just trying to prevent a situation that could potentially lead to a problem from occurring later on down the road.

Anyway, in my opinion and in the jewish religion converting is not easy. In fact, a full conversion generally will attempt to dissuade you from converting to prove that you want to convert for the correct reasons. It is possible that overtime his family will learn to love you more if you encourage your children to incorporate a jewish lifestyle into the home. However you are not at that point yet. You need to have an open and honest conversation with him and his family. The least you deserve is the truth.

I think this a very honest opinion.

I was engaged to a jew, who's family was religious and his family pushed to study with a Rabbi. I know now to never convert or do something I don't have all of my heart into for someone else... I felt even if it felt right to convert, I would never be accepted by the jewish community... After that it fell apart, not because of religious differences. This was about 5 years ago.

I am now with a Muslim man whose family accepts me for who I am. They are very religious and have no problem with him marrying outside of the religion. I know I would not feel so comfortable marrying him if his family did not accept me. His families opinion was a make it or break it kind of thing; love doesn't always conquer all.

I hope you can have an honest conversation with your SO and get to the bottom of it... I'd love to know any updates!

 

[inflorescence]

Hi everyone! Thank you so so so much for all your words of wisdom, advice and opinions. I did come and read periodically and took a long time to think about everything. I wrote out several very important questions to ask him and gave him the questions. He took a few days and wrote out very detailed answers. The answers have given me a lot to think about. Some of the answers were more, "we can choose together, and some were set in stone: this is the way it has to be for me..." So I have a big decisions to make. I essentially will have to throw out some of my traditions or moral beliefs to be with him, and as much as I love him, I don't know if I can change certain things, as he can't change his mind on certain things... I will give more details later. *hugs*

 

[omc111]

Good luck to you and your BF. While I know this must not be easy, you're smart to look at these issues now so they don't haunt you after you're married.

 

[madelise]

I'm glad you updated, every so often I'd be checking for your response and thinking of you!! (incredible, right? I only know your SN!) I almost feel like he's totally in the wrong for telling you he's not religious in the beginning, then after all these years, pulls this crap AFTER he's already got you invested. And worse, bought the ring already. Sort of like a "I already bought the ring, so you HAVE to conform to my now changed needs"- feel, while dangling an engagement bling for you to bite on.

I really hate to be pessimistic during what's supposed to be an exciting time for you, but some girls here said it right that these are huge red flags. What if he continues this trend and makes a bunch of significant purchases, or lifestyle choices for you, and basically, does the same thing, tells you he already paid for it or commuted to it, and too bad, you're just going to have to conform? What of one day, he comes home and says "Were moving to Alaska, already put a down payment on a house and signed a contract with an employer", while you thought you'd always live in your home town? Too bad? The house was purchased already? I know this isn't comparing apples to apples, but it's all in the same principle..

Can you share what his "musts" are for you? And do you trust his word on his reply of "x isn't set in stone, I have no strong preferences, we'll decide together"? I mean, at this track record, what if he all of a sudden, years later, decides he changed his min about how serious he was?

Your whole position is heartbreaking for me.. I'd never wish anyone, even enemies, to go through an ordeal such as this. It just feels so.. Betraying. I really do hope the best for you, and that you get granted a stronger hand in this relationship.. Thinking of you!

 

[chemgirl]

Hugs, whatever you decide, it sounds like you're going to have some tough times ahead.

I really think marriage and being with someone shouldn't be a hard decision. If it is, then its probably not the right relationship for you. You shouldn't have to give up something you find important for your partner. Compromise is important, but giving up things that you truly value shouldn't be a requirement. Imagine the resentment that would build over time. Its not healthy for either partner.

 

[atp223]

I agree with everything Chemgirl said!

I will also add this, for whatever it's worth:

I'm Greek Orthodox, which is a religion that is very similar to Catholicism (the churches branched away from each other in the 1200 or 1300's. The religion aspect isn't that important to me as long as my partner has similar religious beliefs generally (e.g., that God exists). However, the cultural aspect is VERY important to me. I want my kids to go to a Greek church, go to Greek school, Greek dance, go to Greece every/most summer etc. I dated a few guys who were catholic (and obvs not Greek), and never discussed that, but did worry about it. Then I finally met a Greek American guy, who seemed like my soulmate on paper, and decided we needed to get married. He agreed with that sentiment, but basically wanted to put me on layaway while he had "fun" in his 20s (we were 24 when we met), and then eventually settle down with me. This led to tension, obviously, and at some point the honeymoon phase wore off (after about a year of kind of dating but him struggling to maintain the status of "single" just in case something better came along. Im really glad the honeymoon phase wore off, though, because I realized that apart from both being Greek, we had nothing else in common. It was definitely still VERY hard to walk away from that security. But I did and am sooooo much happier now.

I'm now engaged (as of last week) to a straight up American (catholic), but we have so much more in common than the Greek kid and I ever did. We have the same views on religion and politics, and both love triathlons and running, and are both in the same field (patent attorneys). But about 2 weeks into our official relationship, I sat him down and told him everything about our kids being Greek and that being important to me. And I said our relationship wasn't worth pursuing if that was going to be an issue. He at first thought I was being unnecessarily stubborn, but then realized I was being very fair and mature by telling him my deal breakers up front, and thought about it for awhile, and then decided that he could live with it.

I know this is a rambling story, but the morals (in my opinion) are (1) sometimes the person with the same religious background is NOT the right person for you, because you need more than that in a relationship (again, just my opinion); (2) you will be happy some day even if you walk away from this; and (3) it is really good to get the deal breakers out of the way before marriage. If this relationship doesn't end up working out for you, I'm sure you'll remember that for next time, and then YOU can be the crazy girl who brings up marriage deal breakers 2 weeks into the official relationship. But at the end of the day, as long as you know what the deal breakers are and can live with them, I think you will be fine. I think writing that letter and getting his answers and thinking about things was an excellent idea and very mature step.

But I do agree with Chemgirl that relationships should definitely involve compromise (even for bigger things - eg we can do the Greek thing, but my fiancé really wants me to change my name - it's not my first choice, but he is giving me a lot of leeway, so I am seriously considering it), but they shouldn't be THAT hard.

Good luck and hugs!!!! It may not be easy, but you will figure it out and be super happy one day!

 

[snow12]

When I first met my boyfriend (yikes I hate that word) I sat him down and told him exactly what my deal breakers were and he also did for me. Ends up - the deal breakers were not deal breakers for us. Definitely compromise works small miracles. I've never wanted to wake up and realize how miserable I am, with a house, kids, car payments... Before I broke off my last engagement, I wasn't so sure I'd ever find that perfect someone. I'm glad I took the risk and ended up finding someone who is amazing!

Now not to say that you two aren't meant to be together, just need to know if it's worth fighting for, and you can only be the one that knows the answer to that! (thats what my mom says at least!) I really gave up and stopped fighting in my last relationship.. too many tears cried with him not caring. I'd give it a lot of thought, which sounds like you have been anyways. What works for some, might not work for all.

 

[inflorescence]

I'm glad you updated, every so often I'd be checking for your response and thinking of you!! (incredible, right? I only know your SN!) I almost feel like he's totally in the wrong for telling you he's not religious in the beginning, then after all these years, pulls this crap AFTER he's already got you invested. And worse, bought the ring already. Sort of like a "I already bought the ring, so you HAVE to conform to my now changed needs"- feel, while dangling an engagement bling for you to bite on.
Thank you sweetheart for thinking about me. I feel the same way he was wrong, and unfortunately now it doesn't change the situation even though I am right... he never mentioned how important any of this was, in fact he made a point of it NOT mattering!! If I ever asked any questions about Judaism he said, "I have no idea, I don't practice." He continued to tell me that religion did not matter, that he was Jewish but didn't practice...etc... But once living back in your home city with parents and tradition I guess changes your position and now he does some.?!

I really hate to be pessimistic during what's supposed to be an exciting time for you, but some girls here said it right that these are huge red flags. What if he continues this trend and makes a bunch of significant purchases, or lifestyle choices for you, and basically, does the same thing, tells you he already paid for it or commuted to it, and too bad, you're just going to have to conform? What of one day, he comes home and says "Were moving to Alaska, already put a down payment on a house and signed a contract with an employer", while you thought you'd always live in your home town? Too bad? The house was purchased already? I know this isn't comparing apples to apples, but it's all in the same principle..

The excitement has been killed... ...

Interesting you mention this because in the past he has made decisions without my input, example: his work term here (therefore I had to change schools) He could have stayed in the city we were in, but didn't ask my opinion.

In fact this entire paragraph really made me stand back and look at everything. To be honest up to this point most if not all the major decisions has been what he wanted, and things were set in stone when he asked my opinion... But, he does say now where I will be going to dentistry is my choice. (But yet I always make sure I get his input) *shakes head* I'm an idiot. ...

Can you share what his "musts" are for you? And do you trust his word on his reply of "x isn't set in stone, I have no strong preferences, we'll decide together"? I mean, at this track record, what if he all of a sudden, years later, decides he changed his min about how serious he was?

I don't have the stuff here. So I will get back to you on the musts....but from what I remember is, raise children as Jewish (Therefore me being Jewish)... In sum, I must convert.

Your whole position is heartbreaking for me.. I'd never wish anyone, even enemies, to go through an ordeal such as this. It just feels so.. Betraying. I really do hope the best for you, and that you get granted a stronger hand in this relationship.. Thinking of you! Thank you, your words mean more to me then you could imagine.

Ladies your words and advice have really helped me get through the last little while. The BF and I have a work weekend away, it will be nice to get out of the city at least for a few days even if its work.

He keeps talking about engagement now, and I am not excited like I was before... I now avoid anything to do with it.

 

[madelise]

The excitement has been killed... ...

Interesting you mention this because in the past he has made decisions without my input, example: his work term here (therefore I had to change schools) He could have stayed in the city we were in, but didn't ask my opinion.

In fact this entire paragraph really made me stand back and look at everything. To be honest up to this point most if not all the major decisions has been what he wanted, and things were set in stone when he asked my opinion... But, he does say now where I will be going to dentistry is my choice. (But yet I always make sure I get his input) *shakes head* I'm an idiot. ...

I'm in the same boat re: grad school placement. but the thing is, he KNOWS i'm going to choose a school as close as possible. there's no risk to him there. and it sounds similar in your situation, that he knows you're going to get his input anyway, so it's really just a false acknowledgement of you having a say in something that holds magnitude. Please don't call or think yourself an idiot. We all get in over our heads with men, especially through all the romance and honeymoon stage and wedding talk. We're all here for you.. to try to offer our different angles of opinion and approach.

Ladies your words and advice have really helped me get through the last little while. The BF and I have a work weekend away, it will be nice to get out of the city at least for a few days even if its work.

He keeps talking about engagement now, and I am not excited like I was before... I now avoid anything to do with it.

I am so so so sorry you should be at a very happy moment right now.. every girl deserves her dream proposal with her dream man.. and it's supposed to be blissful.

 

[RebeccaMUA]

inflorescence,
No matter what ends up happening, know that we are all here for you, pulling for you and that we will be your sounding board anytime you need us. *hugs*

 

[nkarma]

The excitement has been killed... ...

I am so so so sorry you should be at a very happy moment right now.. every girl deserves her dream proposal with her dream man.. and it's supposed to be blissful.

I don't know if you are trying to imply that a woman should dumb someone if she does not get a "dream" proposal. That seems a little unrealistic and Hollywood to me.

inflorescence, I have been following this thread. We are all here for you in this very difficult time of discussing your future life goals, plans, values, etc...This sounds extremely difficult in your case.

As far as your bf not telling you about how important religion was when you first started dating, can I ask how old you were when you started? I could see him maturing over the years you have been dating and then not starting to think about planning a family until recently. Men are not like women in that they make a list of all their wants and needs from a partner and think about marriage from a young age. They live in the present more, in general.

Also, I do not know if I am off base here, but it sounds like he makes a lot of the major decisions for the both of you. There are a lot of relationships I know where that works. There are also a lot of people I know who would absolutely hate that. Which are you? It sounds like you maybe did not even notice it or mind in the past.

 

[TooPatient]

I'm sorry you're having to go through this.

I was a Lutheran and met a great Jewish man. He NEVER pushed me to convert but we did talk pretty early on about what we both saw in our futures and what each of us would expect prior to engagement, marriage, etc.
I knew that he would never marry someone who wasn't Jewish (conservative or orthodox) and he knew that I wouldn't just live with someone unmarried. I watched what he was doing and asked questions. As he explained things to me and I got to know the community and traditions, I became interested in converting. I read books and became familiar with the history and traditions. When *I* felt ready, I signed BOTH of us up for conversion classes at two different synagogues. I wanted him in the classes with me so that we could talk about what I was learning in the classes and discuss which customs we would/wouldn't follow. One of the classes was 6-months long, but I did not feel ready yet. I continued in the other classes meeting with that Rabbi until *I* felt ready and the Rabbi agreed.

The community we are in (conservative) has been wonderful and welcoming through the whole process (this was less true at the place with the 6-month class).

I would NEVER NEVER suggest anyone convert unless they feel it is right for them. Period.


If you don't feel it is right for you, I'd STRONGLY suggest you think about your life and your relationship. Being a Jew isn't just about religion (as you stated -- which is REALLY good to see, so many people don't get this) it is a culture. It is an entire way of life.

It was (and still is) right for me. It took me a long time of thinking, studying, and reflecting before I even began the official process. I took longer than anyone else in my class because I wanted to be sure I did it for *ME*. It was only when I could honestly say that I would continue my life as a Jew even if FI wasn't in my life anymore that I decided I was ready.

The things I have given up: Christmas (not even going to Christmas dinner with my family), Valentine's Day, Easter, all other Christian holidays, all of my Christian paintings or framed verses, meat/dairy mixing, ham (all pork products, but I REALY loved ham), and more

What I gained: More than I can ever list. I have a caring community who make me feel welcome, traditions at home that feel *right* to me, great food, wonderfully festive holidays that I truly enjoy, a history that I am proud to be a part of carrying on....


There was a joke I heard repeatedly as I was studying -- 5 Jews. 6 opinions.
Really true.


As for the issue with him making big decissions that affect you both and then telling you.... Yeah.
I think that is a whole separate issue and is normal when you've got two people used to making their own decisions. I think that women are a lot more sensitive to getting input on stuff like this (I mean, if it affects you both why wouldn't you talk to the other???)... but men seem to be less aware of this stuff ("Well, it was the best choice. I didn't think you'd care.").
Oh the stories I could tell
Just explain to him (every time he does it) that it really DOES matter to you and since you are now sharing your life, you feel that BOTH of you should get a chance to hear all of the options and talk BEFORE a decision is made.

 

[madelise]

The excitement has been killed... ...

I am so so so sorry you should be at a very happy moment right now.. every girl deserves her dream proposal with her dream man.. and it's supposed to be blissful.

I don't know if you are trying to imply that a woman should dumb someone if she does not get a "dream" proposal. That seems a little unrealistic and Hollywood to me.

I never implied that she should dump her bf over a proposal (or dumb, if that wasn't a typo). But yes, I feel people deserve to be HAPPY during an engagement. Many men have simpler proposals. Many women prefer simpler. I'm not saying anything about HOW he's supposed to propose. And it doesn't even make sense to assume that from this context, since he hasn't even done so yet, so how am I supposed to judge an event that has yet to occur? -___-. I'm just saying I'm sorry she's going through a hard time. But, I guess, being that I'm from LA, that I am a bit "Hollywood". No one deserves any less than happiness. And I'm sorry you feel that's too Hollywood for you.

Inflorescence, I genuinely apologize to you if you feel I've stepped out of line. As I've mentioned before, your story has really touched me, and I've been thinking of you often.

 

[inflorescence]

I am a conservative Jew and I agree with what you are saying. However, I do know from personal experience many Jewish guys that end up marrying out of the religion. In most cases the man was reformed or grew up in a household where there was not much jewish tradition or the family just didn't care to continue the religion to influence their children.

It sounds like this is not the case for you. I understand the high pressure situation you are in which is why I never let myself be in that position in the first place. It is not your fault if your bf led you to believe in the very beginning that religion was not of utmost importance to him.

In my case, I knew it would bother my family (especially my father) to fall in love with someone who was not jewish and I stopped it from the very beginning because I didn't want to allow myself to fall in love with someone if it could lead to my family disowning me...especially when I knew there were plenty of other men I could fall in love with. It's sort of like I was just trying to prevent a situation that could potentially lead to a problem from occurring later on down the road.

Anyway, in my opinion and in the jewish religion converting is not easy. In fact, a full conversion generally will attempt to dissuade you from converting to prove that you want to convert for the correct reasons. It is possible that overtime his family will learn to love you more if you encourage your children to incorporate a jewish lifestyle into the home. However you are not at that point yet. You need to have an open and honest conversation with him and his family. The least you deserve is the truth.

Thank you for your wonderful honest opinion. I really appreciate the input.