Clark McEwen
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2008
- Messages
- 64
Memorial Diamonds out of Cremains - anyone do this? Need Info.
- Thread starter lisa1.01fvs1
- Start date
- Status
Alexei Zarakhani
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 68
My name is Alexei Zarakhani and I''m the managing director of Advanced Optical Technologies Corporation (AOTC), one of several major producers of gem quality laboratory created diamonds. As well as Clark McEwen I was invited to this forum to provide relevant information on all aspects of man-made diamonds. However, I would like to abstain from commenting on ethical issues surrounding LifeGem product.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,158
Welcome Alexei,
Wow, this has become a high power thread.
I certainly understand that the whole ethics issue is a reasonable one to avoid and we would not wish to infringe on your intellectual property either. The LifeGems technical questions really do seem to be becoming clearer despite Rusty’s refusal to answer even the most basic of questions. I hope he is enjoying his new house.
If you have any comments, especially in response to Mr. James’ criticism and what can and can’t technically be done we would love to read your thoughts.
Also, please provide us with an introduction to D.NEA. What do you make (excuse me, grow), where do you sell it etc.? In particular, are you a competitor with LifeGems in the ‘memorial diamonds’ business and do you have any business relationship with LifeGems, especially as a contract manufacturer?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
Wow, this has become a high power thread.
I certainly understand that the whole ethics issue is a reasonable one to avoid and we would not wish to infringe on your intellectual property either. The LifeGems technical questions really do seem to be becoming clearer despite Rusty’s refusal to answer even the most basic of questions. I hope he is enjoying his new house.
If you have any comments, especially in response to Mr. James’ criticism and what can and can’t technically be done we would love to read your thoughts.
Also, please provide us with an introduction to D.NEA. What do you make (excuse me, grow), where do you sell it etc.? In particular, are you a competitor with LifeGems in the ‘memorial diamonds’ business and do you have any business relationship with LifeGems, especially as a contract manufacturer?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
lisa1.01fvs1
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,101
- Joined
- May 3, 2001
- Messages
- 7,516
Alexei Zarakhani
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 68
Hello Neil,
I will try answer earlier questions that Clark has already responded to. I just have to catch up with all messages.
An introduction of D.Nea is something that do not belong to this thread. Briefly, it''s a web-based retail front-end of AOTC and simultaneously a JV between AOTC and Pearlman''s Jewelers. Please go to http://d.neadiamonds.com/ to find more info. We at D.Nea are not competitors to and have no relationship with LifeGem. However, we have an experience with "personalized" carbon. About a couple years ago we did several diamonds out of human hair. One that was yellow came out fine - nice intense yellow VS slightly above 1 ct, but other we intended to make blue were unsuccessful - too many inclusions. By the way, those unsuccessful ones were from Bill Pearlman''s hair.
So, if the question is if it''s possible to grow diamonds from "personalized" carbon - the answer is, definitely, yes. However, to extract carbon from biological, or rather carbon-containing material and convert it into pure graphite (a source of carbon for HPHT-grown diamond)is not an easy task. Success in synthesis is very dependent on purity and morphology of "the source".
As for growing diamonds of ordered color, Clark have already answered, it is also doable. We grow yellow, blue and colorless diamonds. We can also control our process to grow stones to be lighter or darker, pure yellow or orange yellow. We can''t grow pinks, though. Those are produced by irradiation of grown yellows. So, again, the answer is yes, it is possible.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,158
Thank you.
How much hair was required to make your 1 carat stone?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
How much hair was required to make your 1 carat stone?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Alexei Zarakhani
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 68
Roughly, 1g of graphite is enough to grow 3-4 ct diamond. Depending on a rough, to be exact - quantity of inclusions and their situation, a 3 ct rough stone easily cuts into 1ct round. Now, to get 1g of graphite you will need 10g of hair. However, those are numbers that we were given by a third party which did graphitization for us, e.i. converting hair into graphite. I have my own reservations concerning a technology that third party used - I think that it could be improved, at least in terms of purity and morphology of resulting graphite. More R&D was obviously needed to fine tune the technology but we abandoned the project, at least for the time being. Having said that, one can''t automatically apply our numbers to LifeGem. First, it''s a different starting material and, secondly, their technology can can be more advanced.
Clark McEwen
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2008
- Messages
- 64
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,158
Actually, making diamonds from hair is one of the services they promote. They made a big media splash last year by announcing they had made 3 diamonds of about a half a carat each from 10 strands of Beethoven’s hair. Apparently Mr. Beethoven had some extremely thick hair or they are indeed using a far more advanced technique than you.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Alexei Zarakhani
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 68
Neil,
I looked through messages and questions of Robert James can only be answered by LifeGem.
I can answer your questions despite the fact that Clark has already done it.
#1. Sublimation, as a physical process, is not used neither in HPHT, nor in CVD synthesis of diamonds. What LifeGem meant by using this word I don''t know and won''t be speculating on that.
#2. Yes, it''s possible to specify a carbon source, although it has to be in a form of graphite in a HPHT process. For example, you give me a sample of graphite contaminated with some isotopes, say C-13. I can grow a diamond out of it and will be tested positive for those isotopes.
#3. Yes, purification and graphitization should be a vital part of the overall process. Synthesis of a diamond is a very delicate process. Stability of it largely depends on the quality of "the source" among many other parameters.
#4. No, "waste", as you put it, is not so significant. Most of a starting graphite in a HPHT process is converted (transferred) into a diamond. Off course, something remains in a solvent. But during cutting on average 2/3 of a rough goes into waste. That is true for both lab- and mineral diamonds. No surprise here.
#5. No. Carbon is a carbon, unless it is an isotope.
#6. Yes it''s can be done. In order to grow a yellow stone one have to leave nitrogen where it is, nitrogen is responsible for yellow color. In order to grow blue, one have to prevent nitrogen from entering a diamond and simultaneously have to add boron. Same as type IIb mineral diamonds. For colorless one have to prevent anything entering a diamond (type IIa stone). As for ordered sizes, it is not difficult at all. For smaller roughs one could grow for shorter time, for larger - longer. Besides, size of a diamond could be controlled during cutting if a size of rough is sufficient to do so.
Hope I answered your questions in full.
Alexei Zarakhani
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 68
Again, I won''t speculate on LifeGem''s techniques. Besides, I don''t know what''s a carbon content in 10 strands of human hair. Here''s backward arithmetics for you: 0.50 ct is 100 mg, rough should be about 300 mg, the source should be at least 500 mg or 1/2 of a gram.
I did not followed it but did they actually said that those Beethoven diamonds were made of 100% his hair? If they said that those diamonds contain carbon from Beethoven''s hair, it is quite alwright. I could believe it.
YourGemologist
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2006
- Messages
- 25
With all due respect to the excellent information being shared by industry leaders in diamond systhesis, (which I would like to learn more about) I would like to get back to the original question of this thread.
The real question of this thread is..........Does LifeGem actually own their own diamond making presses, and can they prove their claim to use dead peoples traditional cremation ashes to create those diamonds?
If I asked Gemesis to prove that they own their own diamond presses and make their own diamonds, Gemesis could cover me up in documentation, and would most likely invite me to visit their offices.....even for a restricted tour of their operations.
We have asked LifeGem the same question, and received nothing. No response to the question.
What does that say to a reasonable person looking at the situation?
Robert
The real question of this thread is..........Does LifeGem actually own their own diamond making presses, and can they prove their claim to use dead peoples traditional cremation ashes to create those diamonds?
If I asked Gemesis to prove that they own their own diamond presses and make their own diamonds, Gemesis could cover me up in documentation, and would most likely invite me to visit their offices.....even for a restricted tour of their operations.
We have asked LifeGem the same question, and received nothing. No response to the question.
What does that say to a reasonable person looking at the situation?
Robert
Alexei Zarakhani
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 68
Sorry for answering for Clark. Clark, forgive me!
Blue diamonds have to be grown much slower than yellows. We usually grow a 5-7 ct blue for 12 days.
Reds and greens are done by irradiation of yellows, so extra time is needed. For sure, LifeGem can''t own an irradiation facility.
Definitely, you have to allow enough time for purification and graphitizaton. Don''t forget about cutting as well. And what if something goes wrong either at synthesis or at cutting? It''s quite prudent to cover your back with such a lengthy times. I would be alarmed if it was otherwise.
Clark McEwen
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2008
- Messages
- 64
Hi Robert,
Seeings you brought it up...if you are ever in the neighborhood you are more than welcome to come by for a visit...I will personally take you on a tour of our facility. Our growth chambers currently number in the hundreds...we filled our first building and have added on another 30,000 sq ft that we are adding to at a rate of one new chamber every two-three days. I am attaching a picture of some of our chambers.
Cheers,
Clark
Clark,
That''s very interesting. Those are much different than the Diamond presses I am used to with Nova Diamond and Sundance Diamonds.
One other question for both of you.
How long does it take to grow a colorless synthetic diamond? And what would the cost of one run in a 1ct size right now?
MEgus
That''s very interesting. Those are much different than the Diamond presses I am used to with Nova Diamond and Sundance Diamonds.
One other question for both of you.
How long does it take to grow a colorless synthetic diamond? And what would the cost of one run in a 1ct size right now?
MEgus
JSM
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
- Messages
- 802
This.Thread.Is.Fascinating!
Thank you Andrey and all at Pricescope - I''m learning so much!
I have a question regarding pink diamonds - Mr. Zarakhani mentioned that pink diamonds are created using irradiation. Is this the case with all pink diamonds? There is a website that sells lab grown pink diamonds, and they state that they are treated after HPHT. Does this mean they are irradiated as well?
Thank you Andrey and all at Pricescope - I''m learning so much!
I have a question regarding pink diamonds - Mr. Zarakhani mentioned that pink diamonds are created using irradiation. Is this the case with all pink diamonds? There is a website that sells lab grown pink diamonds, and they state that they are treated after HPHT. Does this mean they are irradiated as well?
YourGemologist
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2006
- Messages
- 25
Hi Clark,
I am honored, and will take you up on the offer. As you know the ISG is the only school in North America that offers a course on the Identification of Synthetic Gemstones. And the opportunity to visit with you all and learn from you will be a priceless learning opportunity for our students around the world.
Thank you. I will contact you offline and we can talk about future cooperation that I believe will be mutually beneficial.
This is a very gracious offer for which I thank you.
Robert
I am honored, and will take you up on the offer. As you know the ISG is the only school in North America that offers a course on the Identification of Synthetic Gemstones. And the opportunity to visit with you all and learn from you will be a priceless learning opportunity for our students around the world.
Thank you. I will contact you offline and we can talk about future cooperation that I believe will be mutually beneficial.
This is a very gracious offer for which I thank you.
Robert
lisa1.01fvs1
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,101
Talk about some transparency Clark! Nice pic of u too!
Yowza what an operation youv'e got going there!
Still, basic questions remain: how do carbon atoms become extracted from cremains where there are apparently NO carbon left as cremains are burned at temperatures precluding carbon leftovers unless the "body" is positioned a particular way over the primary burner as articulated in Robert Jame's enlightening article based on LifeGem's patent? If there is no carbon in the 8 oz. scoop you send them then how can they claim to create a stone from that sample? So obviously another carbon source is used in lieu of dad.
Also, do they take carbon from bone fragments readily available from cremains or just the "partly cooked bits?" in a non-tradional cremation (whatever that is)?
Hair may be a diff. story but it appears they need a lot more than a few strands - they suggest "amount of hair collected during routine haircut." I know my dad had a few wisps at the end and I don't even want to speculate if that would be enough. I have my doubts about the Beethoven quantities as well.
And they cover their butts w/ Terms & Cond. #3 to address this (see previous page.)
So we are back to square one, needing to hear really form the Co. don't get me wrong this has been a very helpful and informative process but is slightly off the mark and has me guessing and doing reverse math.
How do they "purify carbon form my source and then create diamonds?" Is it sublimation, CVD, HPTH or hokus pokas?
And "How do I know that it is dad?" And when the rough gets cut where does the rest of dad go? Should'nt the family take possesion of these bits as well?
I'm getting kinda steamed thinking about all the people who have paid thousands to these seemingly charlatans.
You should see the heartwrenching DVD with story after story of the grandma's and cancer kids winding up on loved one's fingers - you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
Where was your response from Sunday Rusty??????
No I'm not in the trade, just a little guy (well girl) asking seemingly innocuous questions.
Thank God the good guy posse is here to attempt to straighten things out.
spike13
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 217
FrekeChild
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2007
- Messages
- 19,456
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2002
- Messages
- 2,859
Hi DG,
I think that you are asking for too much here in too simple a way.
Consider this: one of the aims of a producer (grower) of MMD (man-made-diamonds) is for them to resemble the natural product as closely as possible. I think that there are few consumers waiting for aquamarine-coloured diamonds, no?
The differences between grown and natural is mostly detectible at the lab-level, and very difficult to impossible in a simple image. There are probably several factors, which a lab can check, to find an indication of either lab-grown or natural origin. Most of the times, not all those factors will show. I fear that Clark could very well show you such images, but with a lot of caveats attached of how not to interpret them.
Live long,
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2004
- Messages
- 5,096
I learned that simplicity is usually the best course of action...
Lets start with the images..., then we''ll break our heads with interpretations...
I think it would be interesting to be able to visually compare between ''regular and consistent'' crystal growth of man-made Diamonds and ''irregular and inconsistent'' growth of the natural ones...
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,158
Very cool picture Clark. Thanks.
It does raise a few more questions for ma and I appreciate your transparency and I don’t want to tread on what you consider to be secret. I notice there are no workers present in the room. On a typical day would this room be buzzing with activity or do these tools more or less do their magic unattended? If I came on a tour, would I see 5 people working in that room or 100?
Are you the manufacturer of the growth chambers? Assuming not, is there a competitive industry of people who make this sort of equipment or is it reasonable to expect most HPHT companies are using equipment from the same general supplier?
Both you and Andrei have mentioned that sometimes the result are of unacceptable quality. Does this happen a lot, like with semi-conductor manufactures, where it’s a large fraction of what’s produced or is it a relatively rare occurrence?
Somewhere I read that one of the difficulties in making diamonds with this sort of chamber is that they are extremely power consumptive. Is this correct? I was under the impression that you couldn’t make a facility with hundreds of presses simply because the demands would exceed the output capacity of the local electric company. Obviously this is not the case but is the power consumption sufficient that this sort of thing is even a realistic limit that needs to be considered in designing a facility like this?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
It does raise a few more questions for ma and I appreciate your transparency and I don’t want to tread on what you consider to be secret. I notice there are no workers present in the room. On a typical day would this room be buzzing with activity or do these tools more or less do their magic unattended? If I came on a tour, would I see 5 people working in that room or 100?
Are you the manufacturer of the growth chambers? Assuming not, is there a competitive industry of people who make this sort of equipment or is it reasonable to expect most HPHT companies are using equipment from the same general supplier?
Both you and Andrei have mentioned that sometimes the result are of unacceptable quality. Does this happen a lot, like with semi-conductor manufactures, where it’s a large fraction of what’s produced or is it a relatively rare occurrence?
Somewhere I read that one of the difficulties in making diamonds with this sort of chamber is that they are extremely power consumptive. Is this correct? I was under the impression that you couldn’t make a facility with hundreds of presses simply because the demands would exceed the output capacity of the local electric company. Obviously this is not the case but is the power consumption sufficient that this sort of thing is even a realistic limit that needs to be considered in designing a facility like this?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,158
Yes. Thanks.
Indeed Clark also answered but it is often instructive to get answers to the same question from different people. Even when the answer is the same there is a slightly different approach that can be very helpful. Thank you for humoring me.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Clark McEwen
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2008
- Messages
- 64
Hi Neil,
Again, I''m here as an informational resource to try and give some background and insight into the process.
Gemesis currently has about 60 employees with the vast majority of these being in support roles (R&D and Admin). The operation of the chambers is very efficient so much so that the chambers are touched by human hands no more than 1/2 an hour per run (basically loading and unloading).
The chamber is of of our own design but is based on old Russian technology, in fact we still have one of the original Russian design engineers on staff. Our chambers can not be bought off the shelf! However one can probably still purchase one of the old Russian machines as we did 14 years ago when we first started down this path. We do not physically manufacture the actual chambers in-house, it is done by a contractor (a machine shop here in the US) to our proprietary specs. Once machined the 4 main pieces (upper and lower hemisphere and 2 lock rings) are sent to us where our techs start the assembly process. The components for the sub-systems (hydraulics, cooling, electrical etc) are ordered from approximately 70 different suppliers, this is done to help protect the IP. Once all the pieces are here on-sight we do the final assembly.
Due to the previously mentioned fact (we are a private company) I can''t give you our yield numbers but suffice to say that our success rate is very high and one of the main reasons why we are the first company that has been able to grow gem quality diamonds at the scale that we do and profitably.
The chambers run on about 1500w....in fact the biggest part of our electrical bill is due to the amount of AC that is necessary to cool 60,000 sq ft. We currently have hundreds of chambers operating with 16 more being added every month.....and Sarasota still is able to turn it''s lights on!
BTW I am posting another picture with people in it this time......
- Joined
- May 3, 2001
- Messages
- 7,516
Date: 6/12/2008 9:38:24 AM
Author: Clark McEwen
Hi Neil,
Again, I''m here as an informational resource to try and give some background and insight into the process.
Gemesis currently has about 60 employees with the vast majority of these being in support roles (R&D and Admin). The operation of the chambers is very efficient so much so that the chambers are touched by human hands no more than 1/2 an hour per run (basically loading and unloading).
The chamber is of of our own design but is based on old Russian technology, in fact we still have one of the original Russian design engineers on staff. Our chambers can not be bought off the shelf! However one can probably still purchase one of the old Russian machines as we did 14 years ago when we first started down this path. We do not physically manufacture the actual chambers in-house, it is done by a contractor (a machine shop here in the US) to our proprietary specs. Once machined the 4 main pieces (upper and lower hemisphere and 2 lock rings) are sent to us where our techs start the assembly process. The components for the sub-systems (hydraulics, cooling, electrical etc) are ordered from approximately 70 different suppliers, this is done to help protect the IP. Once all the pieces are here on-sight we do the final assembly.
Due to the previously mentioned fact (we are a private company) I can''t give you our yield numbers but suffice to say that our success rate is very high and one of the main reasons why we are the first company that has been able to grow gem quality diamonds at the scale that we do and profitably.
The chambers run on about 1500w....in fact the biggest part of our electrical bill is due to the amount of AC that is necessary to cool 60,000 sq ft. We currently have hundreds of chambers operating with 16 more being added every month.....and Sarasota still is able to turn it''s lights on!
BTW I am posting another picture with people in it this time......
I bet a body language expert would have a ball with this picture. They all look severly put upon.
Takikng a good group photo can be so difficult.
Thank you for the volume of information!
Wink
purrfectpear
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2008
- Messages
- 4,079
lisa1.01fvs1
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,101
Thanks for the credit Freke! I hope prior consumers report them to BBB (not that that matters much) or to whatever oversight body exists to monitor them.
Clark - Hilarious!!!!! Are u paying them enough? They do look rather despondent.
Robert James - where are u now in regards to exploring LifeGem's claims?
Clark McEwen
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2008
- Messages
- 64
I bet a body language expert would have a ball with this picture. They all look severly put upon.
Takikng a good group photo can be so difficult.
Thank you for the volume of information!
Wink[/quote]
Hi Wink,
As usual there is a story behind every picture...
In 2003 Wired magazine did an article on Gemesis and it included a picture (which I am attaching) of the founder, the employees, a few dozen machines and a very large open warehouse. The facility basically look that way until 2005 at which time we felt that we had a commercially viable process and we started to expand. In 2007 we tried to replicate the original shot with the founder, a few more employees and a bunch more machines. The stance and the facial expressions in the new pic are simply emulating those of the old pic. As you can see we have come a very long way in a matter of 3 years!!
Cheers,
Clark
Takikng a good group photo can be so difficult.
Thank you for the volume of information!
Wink[/quote]
Hi Wink,
As usual there is a story behind every picture...
In 2003 Wired magazine did an article on Gemesis and it included a picture (which I am attaching) of the founder, the employees, a few dozen machines and a very large open warehouse. The facility basically look that way until 2005 at which time we felt that we had a commercially viable process and we started to expand. In 2007 we tried to replicate the original shot with the founder, a few more employees and a bunch more machines. The stance and the facial expressions in the new pic are simply emulating those of the old pic. As you can see we have come a very long way in a matter of 3 years!!
Cheers,
Clark
- Status
Featured Topics
300x240.png)