Micro? Or just small...what size is too small and still gain decent light performance?

[CasaBlanca]

If you want to cut to my question...skip to the bottom line...

I got lost and stopped for directions at J*reds. While there...I lost my footing, and slipped pulled myself up on the case that held the wedding bands. Just for a split second, I took a peek in the case...found a wedding band...and for some odd reason I can''t let loose of my desire to have it. (the quality was poor so I can''t bring my self to buying theirs.)

It was a band, pipe cut, or straight stock, what ever they call it...about 5 mm in width. Then there was an air gap or air space and a teeny row of diamonds (probably less than a 1/2 mm wide).

The 10 or 14kt white gold ring was all one piece and the teeny flanking row of diamonds only went across the top half of the ring.

The result was a sleek modern shiny band appearing to be paired with a traditional micro pave band. But again there is a gap of space between them. (which is funny we psers don''t want the gap and here I am trying to force it).

The stones in the "inspiration piece" were micro pave frosty white baby bird spital...you know frozen white chunks of googly ka ka. Yes, I even said that to the clerk...you should of seen her reaction!

GOOGLY KA KA STONES have no appeal to me-thanks to PS. But the price was appealing...$399. I am sure the stones didn''t even measure on a scale in size perhaps they were swept up from the cutting floor?

OK to my question...just how teeny of a stone can one expect to go still obtaining a great cut performance? Would it really matter here? Do most micro pave stones just exist? And what advice on stone size do you have for me to incorporate into my custom inquiries?

Clift note version Question:

Can one expect to see great cut in teeny size stones? If so what size is the least you would advise above the "ka ka cut" mark?

 

[onvacation]

So far Tiffany''s metro collection is my personal benchmark. Those bands are THIN thin thin, and yet the stones have hearts and arrows. So to answer your question, stones can be teensy tiny and still be limpid and well-cut. They still give a good amount of sparkle, instead of appearing to be a band of Wite-out. I''ve yet to see ACA melee at those sizes, so unfortunately I can''t compare. The price though, is hard to swallow!

 

[oldminer]

Below a certain diameter threshold which varies from person to person, a full cut round diamond can have too many facets for its size creating super tiny sparkles. Some folks might prefer the sparkles to be a bit larger. If you used well cut, single cut diamonds which have 9 crown facets, the sparkles, though fewer become larger as if the diamond was larger in some way. This may work for you or may not. Your personal taste is the deciding factor.

I like diamonds under 1.5mm in single cut as much or more than most full cuts under 1.5mm. THat''s my own preference and you may see it a bit differently. 1.5mm is about 0.015ct weight each.

 

[Gleam]

Date: 2/15/2010 3:15:32 PM
Author: onvacation
So far Tiffany''s metro collection is my personal benchmark. Those bands are THIN thin thin, and yet the stones have hearts and arrows. So to answer your question, stones can be teensy tiny and still be limpid and well-cut. They still give a good amount of sparkle, instead of appearing to be a band of Wite-out. I''ve yet to see ACA melee at those sizes, so unfortunately I can''t compare. The price though, is hard to swallow!

Before the metro collection came out, I bought a "micro band" from a local jeweler. It''s very small, I think it must be 1 or 1.5 mm. The tiny diamonds definitely sparkle, however.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Single cuts can be very beautiful- however they are quite difficult to find nowadays.

There are very beautiful full cut diamonds in extremely small sizes readily available. When you loupe them, they look just like a 2 carat stone!
It''s quite remarkable how much detail they can get on such a teeny weenie rock!
I''ve actually never heard a complaint that they are "too sparkley"

 

[Dreamer_D]

I own ideal cut 5pointers and good cut 9 pointers. In my opinion, the difference in performance is pretty minor between the two. Diamonds that small don`t really sparkle and scintillate in most lighting environments. Rather, they look like little white circles. My ideal cut melee look like completely white circles and are very bright, and my good cut melee look like mostly white circles and are slightly less bright. Hardly noticable unless you look for arrows. So with melee I am not picky like I used to be as long as the quality is decent. Sounds like the ones you saw were not decent though.

 

[yssie]

Date: 2/16/2010 1:14:41 AM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
I own ideal cut 5pointers and good cut 9 pointers. In my opinion, the difference in performance is pretty minor between the two. Diamonds that small don`t really sparkle and scintillate in most lighting environments. Rather, they look like little white circles. My ideal cut melee look like completely white circles and are very bright, and my good cut melee look like mostly white circles and are slightly less bright. Hardly noticable unless you look for arrows. So with melee I am not picky like I used to be as long as the quality is decent. Sounds like the ones you saw were not decent though.

+1


My ideal 1pointers just shimmer - no real sparkle like bigger stones. My ideal 5pointers do show some flash, but still mostly shimmer... the 10pointer definitely sparkles!

'course, I might be defining "shimmer" and "sparkle" very differently from someone else..

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi All- I think this is a classic mis-use of the word "ideal" when referring to a diamond''s cut.

Melee ( smaller diamonds) is simply not graded in that manner. There are companies that focus on well cut diamonds in the smaller sizes- but these stones are not measured and classified the same way as larger stones which generally have far more precise measurements taken.
In general, to use the term "Ideal Cut" with accuracy, we''d be talking about diamonds that have been graded "0" cut grade by AGS.

That is not to say that some small diamonds are not better than others- there are superior makes in small stones- but not truly "ideal" cut.

 

[elle_chris]

The melee in my wedding band is very, very bright. Almost like a glittering white light. It's much more brilliant than firey.
I don't know about ideal cut, but my appraiser said the melee was excellent. So it is rated on some kind kind of scale?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 2/16/2010 12:02:47 PM
Author: elle_chris
The melee in my wedding band is very, very bright. Almost light a glittering white light. It''s much more brilliant than firey.

I don''t know about ideal cut, but my appraiser said the melee was excellent. So it is rated on some kind kind of scale?

Great question elle_chris, as it''s central to this discussion.

No.

There are sellers that classify their own melee- and indeed, there is a difference between some of the commercial stuff on the market, and fine made melee. But there is no "official" grading system for the cut of melee

 

[Dreamer_D]

I would like some clarity on this issue of cut and mellee from a rep at WF or BGD if possible... both companies offer mellee that is purportedly cut to ideal proportions (I am using this in the PS colloquial sense, and probably will continue to use the term as such because we use it often

). I am curious to know where the "grading" on the melee from the companies comes from. I was also informed by JA that they use non-commercial grade melee as well, and have heard GOG mention scales of melee cuts too.

When I look at my BGD melee with an IS it looks like it should, with arrows and lots of pink. Thus my use of the term "ideal". The diamonds in my "good" band do not look good under the IS, but still look pretty nice in daily wear.

 

[Rockdiamond]

People can call diamonds whatever they like. This is all too often the case in advertising where companies misuse terminology to confuse consumers- with "Ideal" being one of the most misused words. Of course I'm not referring to any company mentioned in this thread- or any specific seller whatsoever..
I brought it up because we're in a setting where education about diamonds is the goal. As such, it seems to make the most sense to encourage the use accurate terminology.


As I've already noted- there are different qualities of melee- some is better cut than others.
The grading of stones without GIA or AGS reports is done in-house by sellers, or cutters.

 

[Karl_K]

Ideal-scope or ASET can be used to very quickly sort melee by cut quality.

The reason they appear to shimmer is the very tiny virtual facets cant produce a visible flash so you see many flashes joined together or you see nothing.
A single cut however has large enough virtual facets to produce some visible flash in some lighting.
They ideally should be selected by ASET.

melee is the only area I would use IS/ASET as the main selection tool.

 

[Karl_K]

Why doesn't everyone use well cut melee?
$$$$$$ and availability.
Often 2x-3x per ct difference in price.
4x isn't unheard of in larger melee.

h&a isn't a real big advantage at this size(big debate, my opinion is none over reasonable optical symmetry with the right angles) but proper angles are critical.

 

[Karl_K]

bad cut single cut.
These are common and is the result of applying RB rules to single cuts.

 

[Karl_K]

better yield, better performance.
Should be a no-brainier to cut them but they arent tradition.

 

[oldminer]

The rules about what makes a diamond an Ideal cut or an Excellent cut don't change as the stone gets smaller and even tiny, BUT the importance of the terminology lessens as the tiny sizes are examined. Why? Because they are so small that you just can't fully see the characterisitics as they appear on larger diamonds. Tiny diamonds have to look different than their larger counterparts. With an equal number of facets, the facet size on tiny diamonds becomes so small that your eyes just can't pick up all the details of what is going on in miniature. That's why I suggested single cuts, since in very small diamonds, fewer facets sometimes, to some people, is visually appealing. Truthfully, additional facets on large round brilliants and other large stones may well add to what some may see as their beauty, but cutters hesitate to stray far from the safe zone of the commonly accepted faceting patterns. They need turnover of inventory rather than carving out a slower selling niche market all alone. Once is a blue moon a unique faceting pattern becomes widely accepted, but it is not the frequent situation.

Tiny specks of sparkle and shimmer will appear different than the larger ones see on larger diamonds. However, there are several ranges of cut quality which experts can pretty much agree on. There are a couple top grades, a couple mid grades and several lesser grades for the junk that passes as commercial material. For most consumers, the top two or three grades will look very fine and similar. For the discerning eye, the top two grades look pretty much the same. For those in a hurry, the top four grades may do the job. For those who are into price first, there still are plenty of poorer cut stones available.

Some dealers may choose to grade their small diamonds in more or fewer cut grades and some may not grade them at all. What matters to me is that consumers receive what they have been told they are going to get. There are genreally accepted standards even if grading itself is somewhat in question..

 

[Rockdiamond]

Dave, I disagree that the importance of the terminology lessens due to the size of the stones.
IMO sellers need to be responsible what they call their diamonds, regardless of the size.
There''s a well known seller that uses a proprietary name for the melee- which is perfectly acceptable.
Call them "Super Cut Melee"- but not "Ideal Cut" melee is my point.
I think we agree in basis Dave, as we both think it''s very important consumers get what they believed they purchased.

Personally I''d love to buy and use single cuts- but they are very hard to find.

Karl- Your numbers are way off.
There are some really cheap melee out there- but they are generally brown, or Black naats and really imperfect.
How cheap are the 4 times less expensive melee if we''re talking goods of the same grade above J/I1?
There is not even a 2-3 times the difference in price.
If we''re talking about comparing goods of the same color and clarity groupings, the finest makes may cost 30% more- possibly even less.
In fact, it''s not all that easy to find really badly cut melee in better qualities today- as most of the places that small stones are cut have fairly high technology in cutting.
Even India, long known for "poor makes" has made HUGE strides in cut quality.
The melee coming out of China- yes, China, is very nice.