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Moving in together (long)

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Hello Alice & welcome,

I agree with most of what has been posted, you have been given great advice.

I have a bug-bear I would like to air, if I may. You may disagree but here is my point of view: Marriage is Marriage. Until the decree absolute (or equivalent) has been issued he/she is still married. So I view the start of your relationship as being the other woman. You did not give yourself a great start to your relationship here. Again this is my view.

My second bug-bear this this, Men are Men. If a man wants to propose, ask you to move in, have a baby, buy a house, get a new job etc he will. While I am all for female liberation I wonder if in a small number of instances women try to force a relationship too quickly. Women''s lib is great but let your Man do the asking, that way you are sure of what he wants. Time lines do not always have to be vocalised. If he does not do what you expected by your expiration date move on. He will come running if he wants you.

You sound like a sweetheart and I wish you a big bag of New Years luck. Take care.
 
Date: 1/4/2009 12:25:14 PM
Author: aliceinwonderland

Kimberly: Thank you for your kind comments, I have thought VERY hard throughout this whole process and I love his children dearly and I am glad that is comming through so I don''t sound like a terrible person who is yelling ''me, me, me'' b/c the reality is this is about all of us.
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Alice, I have dated three men with children, two when I was not old and wise enough to make the best decisions for all involved and one when I was. Had life worked out a bit differently I may very well have ended up married to the last man, we parted ways for reasons that had nothing to do with his child and while he was sorting some things out I met my husband. Dating him was complicated, but wonderful and while I never met his daughter (we agreed that shouldn''t happen unless we were quite serious about one another) I''m sure I would have struggled to make decisions such as the one you''re making now. You certainly don''t come across as selfish, you sound like a woman who has a vision of how things will work out, and sometimes that doesn''t quite mesh with reality. Sometimes the unknown works about better though. I hope that you two have a wonderful, productive conversation about your future that leads you both to happiness and contentment together.
 
PP: Trust me I would love to stop with the packing/ unpacking situation but he would be sleeping on the sofa as my room in my apt is TINY so only a single bed lol. And I don''t think my housemate would appreciate him crashing out on our sofa! (attempting to save for house etc so living on the cheap for downpayment)

Irish: Thanks for your comments I was a bit taken aback by the post you refrenced but I assumed that that poster didn''t understand my situation so I clarified. And thanks for the hope that it doesn''t have to be marriage or nothing at this point (although I am thinking about the importance of that now given the children.)

Movie Zombie: I am WELL aware of the rebound phenomenon! I have been there done that on both sides and can usually spot that. With the obstacles thatwe have had to overcome to be together over the last 1.5 years I think that this is really not the case. The one thing I am sure of in this is that he really and truely loves me as much as I love him. I have thought about removing myself more often and not being so available but when I think about it makes me feel like I''m not facing my problems as I would be unhappy b/c we weren''t spending time together and I would be the reason we weren''t together...sort of a cutting your nose off to spite your face situation .... but I do understand the spirit behind it. We spend enough time missing each other as it is lol!

Steel: thank you for your reply, I can see that you and I have different opinions and I respect your feels and applaud you for voicing them in a respectful and caring manner! The second part of your post is EXACTLY what I''m thinking in my head. Sort of if I have to bring up the issue and make it clear that this is what I want is it valid b/c I''m pushing for it? I just don''t want him to take for granted that I don''t have expectations about when I want things to happen.

Kimberly: thank you

Alice!
 
I agree with the other girls-talk to him. In terms of the 6 months time thing, personally I think for a relationship with two single, no kids, ex wife etc, 1.5 years might be enough to know for definite that it''s it''s time to move in. With kids, I think that it might take a bit longer.
 
In fear of coming across as a meanie pants, I am not. I have FAR TOO MUCH EXPERIENCCE WITH THIS than I have time to air... and I am not talking about hours watching oprah or dr. phil.

Divorce product children are their own breed. Honestly they are like a bankruptcy on a credit report. Seriously. You''ll be waiting 7-10 years for them to clear out. You''ll always be second behind them. Based on your thread- this bothers you. An ultimatum wont help. If you are okay always coming in second- cool. I have many friends that aren''t.

Oh and those adorable- adaptable children get worse. In some cases.. MUCH MUCH WORSE. They aren''t a puppy- or a cute pet... they are exhausting... and not YOURS.

Take the time instead of giving the 6 mos talk to him... and give it instead to yourself... what is going on with the two of you that YOU need this. And why has HE not asked already... etc etc etc.

This is a sticky situation... and one that needs a lot of careful thought. Good luck!
 
Date: 1/5/2009 9:29:18 AM
Author: tlh

Divorce product children are their own breed. Honestly they are like a bankruptcy on a credit report. Seriously. You''ll be waiting 7-10 years for them to clear out. You''ll always be second behind them.
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This is so harsh and yet so true! That''s probably the scariest part for me is here I am putting myself out there for this guy and I don''t even know what I''m getting into!
 
Starset... aww, babe... HUG!


Date: 1/5/2009 1:25:56 PM
Author: Starset Princess

Date: 1/5/2009 9:29:18 AM
Author: tlh

Divorce product children are their own breed. Honestly they are like a bankruptcy on a credit report. Seriously. You''ll be waiting 7-10 years for them to clear out. You''ll always be second behind them.
Click to expand...
This is so harsh and yet so true! That''s probably the scariest part for me is here I am putting myself out there for this guy and I don''t even know what I''m getting into!
Click to expand...
My view is said with love, because I have been intimately involved in this scenario, myself and through family and friends. All situations the children were put first. Which is the best place for the children-- but an incredibly difficult role for the "new " I believe women as mothers are far better at expressing this role to potential suitors- or boyfriends etc than the fathers. Which unfortunately has left many women frustrated and after an average of 2 years - they leave.

I just feel if men were better communicators- this scenario might work. But they aren''t. It is a strange place to be in... and it may just be who I associate with.. so forgive me if I seem mean or insulting.. I just find too many times women want to fix the broken man... and show tenderness and mercy- and in a WEIRD sense of competition prove they are better than the now ex-wife... or mother of the kids. But in the end... THEY lose.

But I am a little more like a guy in this situation. I just figure- why put yourself through that emotional turmoil? Whenver in a situation like this... I always ask-- am I happy? if the answer is yes... then rock on... often times when you find yourself wanting something from someone else... what is it that you lack in yourself?

As far as what you are getting yourself into... that is a LOADED question! and again.... HUUUUUUG!
 
...on how to deliver my message which is essentially that ''if in six months you are not ready to move in together then I''m not sure I will be willing to continue investing in our relationship."

Even if this tactic works why would you want to move in with someone whom the only reason he has agreed is because you put an ultimatum on the table? Don''t you want him to want the same thing and be pursuing YOU?

If you''re ok with getting what you want as a result of pushing the issue then go for it. If however you would like for him to take the lead then just be cool. Your eagerness is probably a turn off.

Just relax and accept him the way he is for now. If you have this timeline that in 6 months you want to move in together, then let 6 months progress. At the end if he still hasn''t broached the subject...make your decision at that time. I''d just calm down in the mean time and you take care of you for now.
 
TLH: I am fully aware that children are not like pets. One of my signature lines is ''kids are not pets you don''t take them back to the store and say sorry it''s not working for me I''d like a refund.'' I have a lot of experience with children and am aware that they are 95% work and 5% ooohhh they are so cute. I don''t want children of my own but love being around children and don''t have to be realted by blood to love them or view that as ''mine'' in terms of emotional attachment. He and his ex have a 50/50 custody agreement so in reality for me it''s perfect b/c I get the best of both worlds. And I do not expect to come before his children that would be crazy only to have my needs/ feelings addressed. The reason I came here to hash this out was so that I had the right words to discuss this rationally with him and not let my emotions get the better of me. And as for fixing him he''s not broken .... I do understand. I understand your point but I don''t want them to clear out I love the little guys I just want to be part of their lives!

Starset: I totally understand your fears lol!

Update: I think that I have decided to shelve what I''m feeling for a few months and let some stuff in our lives settle down. I''m going to renew my lease for six months (my landlord has agreed to a shortened term) and save like a crazy lady while I have a cheap place to live and put the money away towards my downpayment for a house. I''m going to let my bf know that in six months I''m looking to buy and let him ponder that for a while. He knows that I have been browsing but not seriously looking. I think in six months time when we have been dating for 2 years he will likely have a better idea of a timeline and if at that point I decide I''m at the make or break I haven''t really lost anything financially outside of a little bit of rent which isn''t that big of a deal. I really appreciated all of your comments and perspectives and they really helped me sort out a lot of what I was feeling.

Alice
 
I think that you''re going about it the best way. It seems a very smart decision to make-best of luck with everything!
 
Alice, I am sorry if I sounded mean or harsh. I am speaking both from the point of view as "the baggage" and the point of view as the supportive bistander to friends and family that went through what you are going through. (5 friends dated or are still dating a divorcee w/ children and one actually married the man w/ one child... and I got to watch that nightmare unfold.) So I do understand all perspectives. Being the baggage myself- and knowing how EVIL and MANIPULATIVE children can be- I chose to never put myself in that situation... YOUR situation. You have the roughest and by far the most lonely role of all the players. To that I tip my hat. I have twelve years of therapy to thank my folks for! wink, wink!

I do mean that seriously, YOU HAVE THE ROUGHEST ROLE, the children are put first, and they have 2 guilty parents wanting to do what is best for them. Under the age of 7... they sure are adorable. I meant that from experience. I watched a dear friend and family member- (not my mom) marry a man w/ a child from a previous marriage. The child was adorable... and then SNAP... NIGHTMARE. She became the EVIL stepmother... not in reality... but to the child.

Your plan sounds good, besides... you cannot put a timeline on love. I wish you the best... and HUUUUUG!
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Bee: Thanks

TLH: Thanks for the perspective. My sister was ''that'' child (our parents are divorced). I think that the kids in this situation are not going to morph like that (I know you never know...) but honestly the older child asked his parents to get divorced (not in those terms exactly) so he is VERY happy with mom and dad not living together and in his social group he has a number of step parent families etc and the younger one is so young he has no concept whatsoever and always asks me to sleep over and stay and play lol so I don''t think he would understand for now.
 
well....let me chime in here....I am essentially where you want to be.

FFI and I live together after dating long distance. He was seperated (in MD, all propery had been divided, she had been bought out of the house, child support etc... had all been addressed.)

He was techincally married when we started dating although they equally hated eachother and there was no way in hell that they were getting back together. His words.

After we dated I broached the subject of a more firm commitment. I moved into the house he shared with his exwife. Let me tell you that those emotions alone are enough to send someone over the edge, if you let it. Their memories, their stuff, their space. I came to grips with that fact that I could change the furniture, the color scheme and the look of the house ( I did a MUCH better job btw).

Add in some kids.....i have 2 step sons who are 9 and 7........one is Autistic and the other is a wild child who jumps all over and wants to wrestle, but has a good heart underneath it all..... I can guarntee you that at times you will feel like you are losing your head and think to yourself...WTF?

However, I love my FFI so much and if I had gotten engaged before moving in and understanding what it was, I probably would have lost my mind.

The kids are resilient. They understand that they are not together, however, they will say things from time to time that will hurt yoru feelings. (ie...Mom used to sleep in that bed and she slept on that side...or... Mom said your only staying here temporarily.) You get the idea.

For me....I stayed a few nights at a time when the kids WERE there....I spent weekend time with them. I got the feel for it before I moved to make sure it was something I wanted to deal with.... FWIW...dealing with the Ex Wife is worse than dealing with the kids. There is always Drama. But if you think you can handle it , then more power to ya!

I agree that it is in the best interest of the kids if they understand that you are not taking the moms place or you are taking over the house and all that. However, a frank discussion with your BF will tell you all you need to know about how things will go in the future. If he is not looking to get married within the next 2 or 3 years. Walk away. That is the hardest part.

There will always be "something" that is not going to go right. There will always be a comment that will be said or a face thats made.

Being a step parent is not easy. Especially when you are childless stepmom....its not always easy either. check out (thechildlessstepmother on the web)

If you and your Bf are ready.........go for it....they are his kids and only he knows them well enough to handle them and understand if they will be ready for it.

Good Luck!!
 
Date: 1/5/2009 2:03:57 PM
Author: tlh
Starset... aww, babe... HUG!



Date: 1/5/2009 1:25:56 PM
Author: Starset Princess


Date: 1/5/2009 9:29:18 AM
Author: tlh

Divorce product children are their own breed. Honestly they are like a bankruptcy on a credit report. Seriously. You''ll be waiting 7-10 years for them to clear out. You''ll always be second behind them.
Click to expand...
This is so harsh and yet so true! That''s probably the scariest part for me is here I am putting myself out there for this guy and I don''t even know what I''m getting into!
Click to expand...
My view is said with love, because I have been intimately involved in this scenario, myself and through family and friends. All situations the children were put first. Which is the best place for the children-- but an incredibly difficult role for the ''new <fill in the blank>'' I believe women as mothers are far better at expressing this role to potential suitors- or boyfriends etc than the fathers. Which unfortunately has left many women frustrated and after an average of 2 years - they leave.

I just feel if men were better communicators- this scenario might work. But they aren''t. It is a strange place to be in... and it may just be who I associate with.. so forgive me if I seem mean or insulting.. I just find too many times women want to fix the broken man... and show tenderness and mercy- and in a WEIRD sense of competition prove they are better than the now ex-wife... or mother of the kids. But in the end... THEY lose.

But I am a little more like a guy in this situation. I just figure- why put yourself through that emotional turmoil? Whenver in a situation like this... I always ask-- am I happy? if the answer is yes... then rock on... often times when you find yourself wanting something from someone else... what is it that you lack in yourself?

As far as what you are getting yourself into... that is a LOADED question! and again.... HUUUUUUG!
Click to expand...
This is MAJORLY disagree with......

first hand experience is this........... Ex Wives usually start with something and then it escalates into an inhibital situation. For everyone not just the girlfriend, the step mom or even the in laws.

It would not matter who the person is, the ex wives always try to be Mother of the Year, when in fact they only do it for show and not for the good of their kids.

This is my personal experience. FFI''s ex wife is a Looney Toon and she is off her rocker. To the point she has threatened bodily harm to me.

With us CSM''s there is only genuine love and affection for the people involved and only want to make the best out of a crappy situation.

Step Moms get a bad wrap. We are not evil as we are made out to be. There are plenty of people on here who are stepmothers and I do not nor would not classify them as "evil":

SDL...far from it...nicest woman on this board!!
Diamondseeker....not on her life. Best interstes at heart.
Me: Only want to make the best out of it!!!

Yes it is a crappy situation but you live and you learn. Thats what life is all about.
 
Thanks Alexis for the insight. I think that I like you would much prefer to live together before getting engaged and do a few overnights to see how it goes and I think that is what my bf wants too. My bf thankfully bought a new house so there is none of that ''their'' stuff vibe...and his ex wife....well lets say she is a piece of work. So far she hasn''t said anything to the kids about me that puts me in a negative light that we know about which is good/ surprising. And yes they do say things occasionally that hurt but I realize they are kids and often don''t realize so I let it roll off my back.

And I think that after my six months is up that we are going to have a very frank discussion and if he is not serious about discussing a timeline for commitments then I will have to decide if that''s when I need to walk away which will be a very difficult decision. And I know some people have said you shouldn''t force people to want to be with you.. but there is a limit to how long I am willing to wait to build a life together. As I said there is an age difference between us (me being younger) so I don''t want to wake up one day and realize that my prospects have dwindled for a relationship that leads to marriage and I spent those years chasing my tail Because as much as we don''t like to admit it the older we get the more difficult it becomes to find somebody as people in your age demographic pair off leaving the pool of singles smaller. That was a bit of a ramble but I''m basically tryign to say that I think that I''m at a point in my life where I want to make a commitment and move towards that and I want the same from my partner so if after 2 years he can''t discuss that with some seriousness then I''m not sure we''re right together. But I''ll worry about that in six months lol!

:)
Alice
 
I meant- to themselves...

My friends wanted to prove to themselves that they were better than the ex and mother of the children. The men they were with did not want any more children- and they had to take an a weird bistander yet participant role to these children''s upbringings. So in some ways they wanted to prove to themselves that they were better than the ex. Not by being confrontational and starting trouble... but through their own lacking self confidence by taking a back seat role in a front seat position. In the end, they could not handle it... and so the relationship ended.

It is a rough role, and you know first hand. It sounds as though you are making best of this situation. Yes, sometimes exes are crazy. Which makes your role that much more difficult.

That is why I said you have the roughest role. You are coming into a relationship with an ex that never goes away (and sometimes wish they were back together) with a revolving door of children coming and going. They exes are stuck in the position they created for themselves. While in the beginning -you have a choice... what sort of life do you want for yourself... you cannot help who you fall in love with... sometimes people are bitter about this "choice" and you make of it what you can.

I know this is a very sensitive subject and I am not trying to offend. I am not trying to make light of a very difficult situation either.... It is just a situation that I find to be a thankless and unappreciated job... and I am far too selfish.
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I think you made the right choice. Just keep growing that attraction for each other and maybe sprinkle in a few nights where you''re not available. He needs to remember every once in a while that life is better with you than without you
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I think you should do a search for sandia_rose. You and she have a lot of similarities, although she has a child of her own. (She no longer posts on PS...)
 
Alice,

It sounds like you have sorted a gameplan out, I think this is great. You came across (to me) as feeling very unsettled so I am glad you now know how you will approach this issue.

I wish you the very best of luck. Take care.
 
I want to say a huge thanks you to EVERYONE who posted in my thread. I really appreciated it. I feel a lot calmer about the issue. I think that my plan is a good one of giving it six months and saving for my condo which made me happy b/c then I had a ''smart'' plan to protect myself and continue being happy with my bf. I could continue to be part of his/ his children''s lives. I realized that if we are not headed in the same direction of hoping to make a life together in a similar timeframe that I will EVENTUALLY have to walk away. And while I don''t have any problems with how that impacts his feelings or mine (we are adults and taking that risk ourselves) what about the kids. I realized it''s not fair to them to continue getting to know them and letting them get attached to me even more over the next six months while he and I figure things out they shouldn''t be hurt if I dissapear one day b/c I couldn''t wait around anymore...not fair to them at all! And to be honest it''s hard enough to lose one person you love, i can''t imagine losing three people you love all at once...would hurt WAY too much.

So I''m going to talk to him tonight and I''m going to frame it in that context that he and I need to figure out what our respective timelines are in regards to moving in/ engagement (and which comes first) etc before I continue to spend much time with his kids. If we are not on the same page then he and I need to scale back how much time I spend with the kids until we figure things out and I make a decision about whether I can live with differing timelines. And if the answer is that we''re on the same page ...well that''s just fantastic. That sounds pretty jumbled up but bottom line I''m gong to talk to him and hopefully we''ll come to an understanding of each other''s perspectives!

So thank you ladies for talking me off the proverbial ultimatum ledge! As usual you are all a fountain of wisdom!

Alice!

PS: does anybody else find it incredibly ironic that we all collect here on a mostly female forum seeking advice about how to deal with the men in our lives lol!!! The extra funny part is that I find the advice given on here way better than the advice I got from my guy friends who should understand the male perspective.
 
UPDATE:

Ok so I honestly don''t think this chat could have gone any better. I asked him to meet me to discuss some things. As a joke I drafted up an ''agenda'' for the meeting and handed him a copy it listed

A. and J. meeting Jan. 8/ 2008\
1. J. freaks out worried about ''meeting''
2. R. calms him down
3. The discussion

He thought it was funny so it diffused the situation (I have a quirky sense of humour.) I went in with notes....I know I am a type A personality. I talked about how I am in this relationship for real and that I see this being an ''us'' and that I am a team player and I discussed that in a normal relationship of this lenght I would expect to be discussing moving in and engagement as a followup to that. He said at that point that he definately sees those things with me (which I already knew). Then I told him that random timeframes of when it''s right were not an acceptable timeframe and I told him that in six months I felt we (and the kids) could be ready for that if we started preparing them I felt that would be a reasonable timeframe. After some discussion he agreed that six months could be conceivable and that I am being reasonable. I told him about my buy a condo wait 6 months for this discussion plan but that in light of the fact that I didn''t want to become too entrenched with the children beyond where we are now that we needed to make sure we are on the same page.

He expressed concern about the craziness of raising kids etc and I told him that I though VERY hard about all of that before I entered into this relationship with any seriousness and that I have a really good understanding of how active children can be (I''m a primary teacher). I emphasized the team aspect of this and that I''m not moving in with him but with the children and that at that point it''s not he and I but the four of us and that we would be a family/ team. I think he realized that I''m really prepared for this on an emotional level for the challenges of this which is good.

We even went so far as to discuss the fact of what me moving in would entail eg. my stuff since his place is fully done etc and I said that I could deal with moving into ''his house'' as long as we viewed it as our in the he''s not going to tell me not to put my feet on the coffee table, I want to hang my artwork sense of things!!!!!!!!!!

While we didn''t agree on a six month timeline he does understand that I am not going to wait forever and we established that within a year we definately envision living together. He knows that I find that much longer than I would like so I feel that there is a compromise in there somewhere that can make us happy.

In regards to me buying a condo I think I''m just going to continue to rent/ save like scrooge since we both agreed that buying something right now doesn''t make sense since we do plan to move in together (YAYAYYAA). So in six months we are going to see where we stand and in the meanwhile we are going to start to take steps to incorporate me more into the kids lives so that moving in together becomes a real possibility. I think that we both agreed that engagement will come furthur down the road but that it is important once we decide it''s the right time for us. In the meanwhile we are going to focus more on the team aspect of this instead of having seperate goals about our lives and include each other more so that things become ''us'' deicisions rather than "I'' decisions if that makes sense.

SO CRAZY happy right now!!!!!!! I just feel glad that we both want the same things since I love this man so much. Nobody has ever made me this happy and I''m glad that we both seem to have the same relationship goals b/c no matter how much you love somebody if you don''t want the same things it''s not going to work!

A million thank yous to everbody who read/ posted it was so wonderful to be able to ''talk'' to all of you!
:) Alice
 
Yea! Glad it went well. Sounds like you handled it perfectly.
 
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