My reponse

[Cookie_tyme]

I read all your replies to my topic, You are worth it! and I am sorry it did get so ugly. I''m not offended, as I have lived through 4 teenagers (2 still are) and a very pushy MIL, so I know all about unwelcome advice.

Deco, surfgirl, and Mara were right about my intentions. Also, I did get an almost desperate feel from many of the posts I perused. It made me feel frustrated to think of all the guys who weren''t committing because their girlfriends were "playing house." I''m on your side. A bit old-fashioned yes, but mainly wanting to see you living happy lives, feeling good about yourselves. Anyone who knows me, knows that I am an affirmer. I don''t give a lot of unsolicited advice, but there are times when the solution seems so obvious, I can''t help but say something.

We all come from different backgrounds. Here''s mine: At 17, I slept with my boyfriend. I did so for more security in our relationship. He did so for the sex. He''s a great guy, but he''s a guy, with testosterone coursing through his veins. I didn''t feel more secure, rather more clingy. He felt like he had let me down, because he knew that for the 1st 18 mo of our relationship I had a standard to wait until marriage. But I was from a broken family and looking to feel closer to him. We both still regret not waiting. Nonetheless, we got married. It was a shotgun wedding. It was a thrown-together wedding, in March 1985. I was almost 18, a senior. He was almost 20, a college sophomore. I didn''t get to graduate with my class, but did earn my diploma by homeschooling myself, and reporting to my teachers. I got it one week before my baby daughter arrived. We had to live with his folks for almost 3 years while he earned his degree. Not always easy, but I am grateful that they opened their home up to us.

We now have a five kids, ages 5 - 22, a nice home, and all that jazz. But I never went to college. I plan to next fall. But it''s not the same as the whole 18-22 yr experience that I''ve watched my daughters enjoy. I''ve been looked down on by "educated" women once they found out I was "only" a homemaker with no college degree. That''s sad, as it''s one tough but rewarding job.

The point is, had I stayed true to my standards, I would''ve enjoyed a better young adult life. I''ve endured a lot of emotional pain because of the was I was married. Maybe that''s just me, personally, the way I was raised, etc. But I know in part, it was an inner conviction all my own. I believe that women are made with a sensitivity that should be protected and fostered. But because of friends, or the media, we allow it to be opened up and trod upon, and then we become hardened. I''m just crying out to you all to treasure your sexuality enough to open it up only to one who respects you enough to show his commitment by giving you his very life. Because that, my dear ones, is what you are worth. I write you in tears, not as one pointing a finger, but as one with her arm around you.

Please forgive me for offending you. I only meant good.

 

[mimzy]

i never responded to the first post because i really didn't have anything to say about it. but i think that there is a lot of truth to what you said here. given "times have changed" and the VAST majority of women on this board are college educated career women who are waiting to get married despite having sex before marriage, i think there are some universal truths that haven't changed no matter how much society has.

i might get reemed out for this, but i really believe that women are wired differently and that we do respond to sex differently, and no matter how "independent" we are, it is impossible to be unaffected by it. and that's GOOD, we're SUPPOSED to be affected by it....but when it is done in the wrong context, the effect is unavoidably negative. no matter how much a person denies it, it complicates lives and emotions to such an extent that it can really change the course of our lives. and perhaps the saddest thing about it is that we DO harden ourselves and become calloused toward something that is supposed to be the exact opposite in efforts to protect ourselves from the unavoidable hurt that usually accompanies it (when done outside the context of a relationships that is or will eventually be marriage).

nobody asked for it, but here's where i'm coming from -

i had sex with my boyfriend when i was fifteen, and we dated from about three years after that. the relationship didn't work out, and it probably went on a lot longer than it should have. i tried to use sex as a way to feel close to him, when emotionally i was pulling away (despite my efforts not to). even though it began as a good thing (sort of), in the end it hurt our relationship because it was used as a filler of sorts to compensate for the lack of connectedness. towards the end i was so disillusioned with the relationship that i mentally and emotionally separated sex from love, simply because i wasn't in love with him anymore, but couldn't face that.

my next boyfriend i had sex with because i was angry and wanted to be in control of something. in retrospect, i absolutely cheapened the whole act and i felt completely ashamed - not because anyone was judging me for it, but because i had let myself, even for just a moment, fall into the trap of "i'm too strong i can do whatever i want to and it won't affect me". it only happened once, but the damage was done, even though i was in denial about it for a looonnngggg time.

my next boyfriend was more serious, but pretty much the same thing happened as the first time. the relationship fell apart, so we depended on sex to maintain it because it was too hard to let go of. this was probably the worst, because it so often happened in a context with no formal commitment to each other (we were on and off a lot). it was because of this relationship that it took me a LONG time to get over the idea that the only way you can show someone you care about them is by having sex with them, and vice verse.

my FI and i decided to wait for so many reasons. for me, i didn't want to complicate the relationship and possibly fall into the same traps that i had in my previous relationships. Since i knew he was special, i wanted to make sure that when we had sex it would be as special as possible too.

now i'm sure that my own personal flaws have A LOT to do with why i've had some negative experiences with sex, but let me tell you that these were all really good guys that weren't necessarily trying to 'play' me or whatever. i'm just sharing this because i think that a lot of girls are in denial and refuse to recognize the impact sex can have on someone because they want to think they are "stronger" than that or something. obviously it's a personal choice and i certainly am in no place to preach, but i just wanted to add my perspective.


long story short, cookie i know your intentions were good and the sentiment has a lot of merit; but sex before marriage doesn't have the same social consequences that it did back then and i think that is the main difference between where you're coming from and where a lot of these ladies are at right now.

 

[Independent Gal]

Putting aside the initial issue, I just wanted to say: good for you for persevering! Getting your high school diploma against the odds! Raising your kids, and making the best of a less than ideal situation.

And SUPER good for you for thinking about going to college next year. I admire that so much. College isn't just about getting credentials for work, it's about learning and self-cultivation for its own sake. It makes the world more exciting and interesting the more you know about it. So go for it. Do it for yourself. It sounds like you've spent a lot of life doing things for everyone else around you.

Also, you have a lot to offer the other students from the various kinds of knowledge and wisdom that you have about the world that they don't yet. There were some 'grown-ups' in my classes when I went to college years ago, and they were always minor celebrities. Everyone found them sort of mysterious and cool, like they knew all kinds of things we didn't know (which of course they did!). It was our first experience of being 'on a level' with adults, our first chance to talk to them as equals, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, welcome to PS. And I happen to like contentious advice. It livens things up, and forces people to articulate the reasons they might instinctively disagree.

 

[Sha]

Hi Cookietyme,

I didn''t contribute to the original thread either but was intrigued reading it. I admire you for coming back with such a warm response, and for sharing your own personal experiences with us. I learned a lot from your post and I hope others do too, and
I really appreciate the good intent with which you wrote it.

 

[Patiently_Waiting]

Date: 2/22/2008 11:29:45 AM
Author: Sha
Hi Cookietyme,

I didn''t contribute to the original thread either but was intrigued reading it. I admire you for coming back with such a warm response, and for sharing your own personal experiences with us. I learned a lot from your post and I hope others do too, and
I really appreciate the good intent with which you wrote it.

Ditto.

 

[ImpatientOne]

Cookie_tyme,

First of all, I want to send you a big cyber HUG! I did not respond to your initial post, either, but I did read through all of the posts. I think for us older women, it is hard to sit by and watch young people make what we believe are mistakes. We tend to want to save them from all the heartaches that we have experienced and endured in our time. For me, I'd love to impart all the knowledge I have, but alas, I know experience is the best teacher. As much as I have tried over the years to try to save my children from making some of the same mistakes I did, they are truly their mother's children and are just as hard-headed as I was!!! All but the youngest seem to need to do things the hard way!!!

Below is my story. When I look back now, at 47 years old, I shudder at what I went through. I would be crushed if any of my children chose this same path, but you know what?! I have turned out to have a wonderful life including a successful career and three beautiful, amazing children that I raised all by myself, and now, a wonderful new husband!

I am a 47 year old woman who, at the age of 20 ran off to live with my bf when I found out I was pregnant. My family was mortified. I came from an upper middle class home where college followed by marriage and then children was the exected. I dropped out of college to take care of my baby and never did go back. My son's father ended up being an abuser, and I left him when our son was only a year old. Best move I ever made!

I went on to another relationship, again, not married and had two more children. We were together for several years, but apparently he got tired of playing house and we split up. Although I didn't see it at the time, that was probably the next best thing that ever happened to me. I went on to focus on my children and my career. I did not date at all for over 10 years. I knew that my focus had to be my children. I was blessed enough to have a great job that allowed me to be able to raise my kids in a healthy, happy home. We took lots of vacations and spent a lot of quality family time together.

My children are now 26, 20 and 18. About 3 years ago I knew it was time for me to start looking for a life partner as it would not be long before my nest was empty. I met my husband two years ago. We chose not to live together prior to marriage and he did not move in until the day we returned from our honeymoon. We are both really happy we did it that way, but that was a very personal decision. We will be celebrating out first anniversary next month!!!

My oldest, a son, is now married and a US Marine. He and his lovely wife blessed me with my first grandchild last summer and he is the spitting image of his daddy! My girls are both in college and doing wonderfully! I am truly blessed! My dear husband is currently serving with the US Army in the Middle East for 15 months and will be there until December, but coming home on R&R next month for our anniversary!

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I do know where you were coming from with your original post. Unfortunately, while your post was well intentioned, I can understand why the majority of the ladies found it offensive. It takes all kinds of people ot make up this world, and thankfully we live in a country where we are free to chose how we want to live out lives. To each, his own.

Hugs!

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/22/2008 11:18:58 AM
Author: Independent Gal

Anyway, welcome to PS. And I happen to like contentious advice. It livens things up, and forces people to articulate the reasons they might instinctively disagree.

Ditto. I wasn''t insulted or upset by your original post, Cookie. A lot your thinking is extreme (so much so that I initially thought it was a troll-post) to my worldview - but that doesn''t make me right and you wrong.

And honestly, reading back on it and also re-reading your response (please don''t be offended by this), I heard my Mom. My Mom has been gone for 14 years, and a lot of what she taught me and said to me when I was growing up was tinged with regret and anger at her own situation. You might have read my previous posts, but if not, she married young because society at that time dictated it, had three kids one after the other and found herself a 29 year old widow with no money or job skills because she had no education past high school and my father died and left her nothing but bills. So, she drilled it into me that I MUST get an education, MUST be independent, MUST not allow a man to get the upper hand, ever, etc. etc. My Mom''s teachings to me were extreme in their own way (it was almost like she wanted to drive the "weak dependent woman" out of me) but she only meant good, too. She didn''t want to see me end up like she did.

I carry a lot of anger and regret over my having gotten married when I found myself pregnant. Those few years I was married did more to crash my self-esteem and confidence than practically anything I''ve ever experienced. There are many instances where I could look back and say "If I had not done X, I''d have Y today." But the crappy part about life is that we learn through pain. If life were easy and offered no challenges, we wouldn''t grow as people and as women. And, when I am not upset about it, I can look back on my life and see where specific pain points taught me something, either about myself or about other people. For example, when my mother died, I was 25 and it was the worst pain I''d ever felt. I have no idea how the hell I got through that, and I still feel "cheated" at her not being here anymore. But, I have been in the position since then where my best friend''s dad and my BF''s mother both died....and because I went through my own pain, I was able to help them through it.

Because times have changed, I don''t know that maintaining virginity is the appropriate answer. As I''d posted, I''m no saint and just can''t be "that good." I think what you''re wanting us to have is self-respect.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[goodfun7580]

Cookie_tyme thanks for having to courage to come back and elaborate on your post despite the negative response you received. I know for me personally, I was not offended. I do have pre-marital sex with my boyfriend and live with him. There are times when I think maybe I''m going about it the wrong way, but at the point I''m at its not like I can really go back and try to fix the situation with out sending my boyfriend some very odd signals.

I think part of the problem with you original post was the fact that you posted it in the ladies in waiting board. Most of us here probably have sex with our boyfriends and/or live with them and believe to be on the path to marriage. Its not easy to imagine the actions you are taking could be wrong when you feel like you are doing whats right for you. I definitely think that waiting for sex and living together before marriage has its merits, and had I been able to go back in time and live my life differently, maybe I''d choose that route. But I have to deal with the choices I''ve made, and hope that things work out for me. I have a happy life and enjoy the relationship I have with my boyfriend and doubt that waiting for sex and living together would ultimately change our relationship, but I will never know. Had you posted this advice on a singles or dating forum, you may have had a better response, but to come to a forum where we are all waiting for proposals and marriage and suggesting we had gone about it the wrong way just seems like a recipe for disaster. I have no doubt that your intentions were nothing but pure and meant to be helpful, but not exactly applicable to our current situations.

 

[chocolatefudge]

Cookie, I didn''t reply to your earlier thread either. I understand that you came on here with good intentions and if that is how you feel then that is fine, the problem is that you are telling others that they will regret having pre-marital sex because it is something YOU regret. Everyone is different and I don''t think you can generalise. I understand that many women wish to keep their virginity for marriage and that is fine for THEM. I also know many women who simply enjoy sex whether married or not and that is fine for THEM.
I don''t think it was fair to imply that a man only sleeps with you for the sex and not the commitment. This may sound very shocking but it was ME who initiated sex between me and my SO. Does this make me suddenly the ''bad'' person?

Thank you for coming back and explaining yourself but I also wanted to show you how we felt reading your ''advice.'' To be honest, we didn''t need it. Everyone''s relationship is different and what wasn''t right for you, doesn''t mean it''s not right for someone else.

 

[vslover]

Some people on this board may not need it, but some do I think. The desperation in some of the posts is sad...and I believe the women reading this board can be strong and intelligent women...but some are waiting around for men who are not worthy of them. I think those women could benefit from hearing that they deserve better.

 

[chocolatefudge]

But does that mean not to have sex? Is this really the issue? If my SO and I were to break up it wouldn''t be having sex with him that I would regret. I don''t think sleeping with my SO makes me desperate! I enjoy sex! Shock horror!

 

[vslover]

I don''t think it necessarily means not to have sex...though I''m not one who takes that very lightly. But I do think it means holding something back...not always being at their beck and call...and listening when a man tells you he doesn''t think you''re the one. KWIM?

 

[chocolatefudge]

I wouldn''t be happy if my SO told me that he didn''t think I was the one he wanted to be with and would probably not want to have sex with him! However, in a loving relationship I am happy living with my SO and sleeping together. Obviously, it is a different situation being with someone who doesn''t want you, however I don''t feel this is the case for most of the women on here.

 

[Independent Gal]

I''m kind of with VSLover on this one. It''s not necessarily sex. But implying that you totally belong to the guy, that you''d do anything for him, that you put his needs WAY above your own, that you''re totally committed to making his life wonderful with no claims of your own...

The idea is that, ideally (ideally!) you both commit to this when you get married, but if you think being completely submissive to his needs is going to make him think ''hey, I should marry this girl!'' then you might be mistaken. Why WOULD he take on extra responsibilities and commitments, not to mention financial risks and liabilities, when he has someone totally devoted to his every whim and need?

I don''t think all guys are like that, and i don''t think all girls are like this by a longshot. But they do pop up on this board sometimes. The ''why won''t he marry me?! I''m a slave to his every whim, shouldn''t that make him want me?'' ladies. Where you just shake your head. Even if those relationships did result in marriage, you can just see the misery down the road.

Self-respect. Self-worth. There is nothing more important than respecting yourself every single day, and to do that, you have to act in a way that is respectable. That doesn''t mean not having sex before marriage, necessarily, but it does mean being a full person, asserting yourself, giving and expecting equal treatment in a relationship, and not being a doormat or allowing yourself to be used while blindly insisting that things aren''t what they seem.

The girls like that on this board are a minority for sure. But we''ve all seen ''em.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

I respect everyone's opinions and I appreciate cookie's advice; however, I still hold that wanting to have sex is one of the worst reasons possible for getting married in my opinion. Sorry if I misconstrued what you were trying to say. If that is the case, then I am just making a general, yet relevant statement. Sex and marriage should be two separate decisions. If you want to wait to have sex after you get married, that's fine, but I think it's simply ludicrous for that to be the reason to get married! Sex and high sex-drives don't last forever, love and friendship does.

ETA: I hope you enjoy college! That is awesome, it's a great way to do something for yourself and better yourself! However, I contend that the women who look down on you (or as we commonly call it where I am from the "education snobs") are completely wrong. Who are they to judge you? You do what makes you happy, there's some advice for you.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/22/2008 1:23:32 PM
Author: vslover

Some people on this board may not need it, but some do I think. The desperation in some of the posts is sad...and I believe the women reading this board can be strong and intelligent women...but some are waiting around for men who are not worthy of them. I think those women could benefit from hearing that they deserve better.

But you know...hearing something and believing it are two very separate and different things. And we women are emotional, heartful creatures. We want to believe things will work out. We want to believe that love is enough. We want to believe if we were just more (fill in blank here), that everything will turn out OK. And sometimes it doesn't and that is a bitter, sucky pill to swallow. Hey, I'm sitting there right now myself. On one hand, I look at the situation with my boyfriend and try to imagine what I would tell a good girlfriend if she told me some of the stuff I've posted here -- and I would tell her, "You deserve better; leave him." But that doesn't take into account personal feelings, past experience, etc. I've loved men who were not worthy of me. And on the flipside, I once dated a guy who loved me, treated me like a queen and who wanted to get married, have a family and build a future with me --- and I just didn't have the same feelings for him (and felt guilty about it for years after we broke up....because I wanted to have feelings for him -- he was a great catch and a really great person). And, while I've posted that love is a choice that we make -- and by that, I mean that relationships sometimes are not easy and you have to consciously choose sometimes to want to put time and energy into making them work when things are not pretty/easy/fun -- sometimes, we have feelings for people we shouldn't and vice versa. Heck, I remember when I was 16, 17. One of my best male friends came out to me and a few choice others that he was gay (which was courageous as hell in 1985!). Well, what did Bridget do? I went home and cried. Sobbingly and hard. Then I took out the stash of Jagermeister I had hidden in my closet and got plastered. I had crushed on this guy since I was 12, we got along majestically, and I could not emotionally understand why he couldn't "get over it" and love ME. I took it personally, which made no sense and I knew it. Because if he were a straight man, we would have made a great couple (which he acknowledged). But he was not a straight man and nothing I could do would make him straight. VERY hard to swallow. The heart is an illogical, messed-up thing. We don't want to come across as desperate, but sometimes can't help projecting what we feel inside. Even the most intellegent, strong women among us.

Also, what sometimes looks to others as desperation is a manifestation of "figuring it out" in an open and public way. I've spoken with Mars-Venus counselors before, and one thing I've been told is that men "go into the cave" (clam up and hide or claim that they "need space"), while we women need to vent verbally. This board is the typed version of venting verbally. With my own BF, I'm sure that some people see me as desperate (I mean, the guy's got issues and I have a lot to offer a man -- so why am I sticking with a broken one?). But I am trying to understand the situation and sit with it a while before I make a choice. And as in other facets of my life, once I've sat with something and chewed on it a while, I will make a decision that I am finally at peace with. And if I do that, I won't look back with regret or "shoulda-coulda." I'm sure a lot of us do that.

The cartoon below is meant to be humorous. I think a lot of us subconsciously choose relationships that either highlight our insecurities or make us examine them in detail that we don't like.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[surfgirl]

cookie, thank you for coming back here and explaining in more detail WHY you posted what you did yesterday. I have to agree with vslover that there are indeed some here that do need to hear the message of "Choose yourself", because there are indeed many posts that boil down to "I do everything a good wife would do but he wont propose..." and that IS sad because it intimates that those women have given up their individuality for a man that either doesn't value them 110% or who really isn't that into them. Mind you, I have no issues with pre-marital sex and I'd personally rather live with someone before marriage than not, but if I had it to do all over again, I probably wouldn't have "played house" for such a long time because I think it made it easy for the Mr. to just coast along without making that final commitment. That said, we're extremely happy now so long term dating/living together CAN work out, but my situation is the extreme and I wouldn't recommend it.

Again, thank you for coming back to continue the dialogue. I find it interesting that so many who were upset yesterday, haven't responded today, and I encourage them to do so. It's an important conversation and one that we could all learn from.

Oh, and KUDOS to you cookie, for going back to college soon. That is awesome!

EA: Bridget, I just read your above post (we posted at the same time) and you are 100% correct, IMO. Some people react vehemently perhaps because they see themselves in the scenarios stated and want to HOPE that their situation will turn out differently... I know because mine DID turn out differently...but most unfortunately, don't. But you're right I think, people are in a "hopeful" state, yet as vslover also said, sometimes it smells a bit desperate and if people challenge that, they're basically challenging those women to re-think their relationships, future, plans, etc. It's DAUNTING, isn't it?!? You come here to talk vent or talk about stuff and then BAM! Someone posts something that cuts to the very core of where you're at in your own life and it's hard to read sometimes, I'm sure. Anyway, just wanted to say that' was an excellent post Sandia (and no, I dont think you're desperate...you've gotta do what's right for YOU and nobody here, nor your friends/family can say what that is, only you can!).

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/22/2008 10:26:13 AM
Author: mimzy

i might get reemed out for this, but i really believe that women are wired differently and that we do respond to sex differently, and no matter how ''independent'' we are, it is impossible to be unaffected by it. and that''s GOOD, we''re SUPPOSED to be affected by it....but when it is done in the wrong context, the effect is unavoidably negative. no matter how much a person denies it, it complicates lives and emotions to such an extent that it can really change the course of our lives. and perhaps the saddest thing about it is that we DO harden ourselves and become calloused toward something that is supposed to be the exact opposite in efforts to protect ourselves from the unavoidable hurt that usually accompanies it (when done outside the context of a relationships that is or will eventually be marriage).

Mimzy, I agree with you on this one...I think it is VERY difficult for most women to be casual about sex. Some do, but not as many as you''d think and the ones who say they are casual about it...well, there''s a good percentage of them that it''s a lie. I tried to have a one night stand with TGuy. Look where that got me.

Chocolatefudge, re: your comment "I also wanted to show you how we felt reading your ''advice.'' To be honest, we didn''t need it." You presume to speak for everyone on the LIW board? How do you know someone didn''t need it?

People give tips and advice everyday on these boards. Some of it unsolicited. Most of the time it flies under radar because it doesn''t raise ire. Just because you don''t agree with it doesn''t make it bad advice. As Deco previously said, it''s possible not to agree with it, but not spew fiery vomit everywhere. (btw, I am speaking generally here, not to you specifically chocolatefudge...upon rereadin this last paragraph, it seems like I am so I wanted to clarify.)

And in my personal experience, I find that the women who are the most adamant about "I am woman, hear me roar" are the ones that mew and meow the most in their relationships.

 

[sunnyd]

Maybe the reason some people got so fired up was because the ''Choose yourself'' message became equal to sex. I''m all for being independant and strong, and to me, in this context, that means if I don''t wanna have sex with you, I won''t! I agree with Sarah in that sex and marriage are two completely different things. Not every sexual relationship a woman has needs to end in marriage. No marriage should occur because you want to have sex.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:07:41 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Mimzy, I agree with you on this one...I think it is VERY difficult for most women to be casual about sex. Some do, but not as many as you'd think and the ones who say they are casual about it...well, there's a good percentage of them that it's a lie. I tried to have a one night stand with TGuy. Look where that got me.

It's how we're biologically wired, and it's not our faults. Believe it or not, when I was in my 20s, I felt so sappy for getting attached to men too soon, when those same men were not proportionally attached to me. And then I saw a program on public TV about the biological differences between men and women. At that point in time, what I heard/saw on that program was new info for me and it opened my eyes. We may be human and upright, but to be blunt, we're just clothes-wearing animals. Men are wired to be polygamous and to "spread their seed" as far and wide as possible. For any animal to stick with one mate is to severely limit that animal's gene pool and genetic continuity. And, if you mate with the "wrong" mate (inferior genetics, infertility), then you'd be dead in the water from a reproductive standpoint to stay with them. But women are wired to be monogamous. Many female animals, once they mate, stay mated with their mate for life (wolves, swans, some species of bear, Canada geese, and there are others, I'm sure). However, the male animal can and does mate with other females, who also bond to him. Essentially, this builds him a harem. This has the biological advantage of the superior gentics getting passed on and for the inferior gene holders to be shut out of the privelege of mating. Any animal that has children needs to be in a situation where she is protected and is allowed to raise her young to the point where they are independent of her. If female animals had the urge to mate and stray, then there would be the probability that young would be neglected/abandoned. It would not be in a male animal's genetic interests to mate with a female who does not have the instinct to be faithful and stay close to him.

Even though we are civilized animals, we have a nasty chemical in our systems called oxytocin. Women have it in a much greater concentration than men do. When a woman has sex, oxytocin is released in her system, which then creates feelings of love and bonding towards the man. The same does not happen in men, to the degree that it happens with us. This is why men can have stringless sex -- they honestly see it as "just sex" because of how they are wired. Ditto with breastfeeding. When you breastfeed a child, the physical component of it releases oxytocin into your system as well...which creates the bonding/love you feel towards your child. Again, from a biological standpoint, this makes sense - you are more apt to care for something much better if you love it. This is also why, in previous times and even nowadays, if a woman planned to give her child up for adoption, she often was not allowed to see/touch/feed the child, because she would bond with the child and not be able to give it up.

It's the oxytocin that makes sex more emotionally risky for us. So yes, to the original poster's opinion, in some instances, it makes sense not to go there.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[Mara]

good for you cookie on coming back and elaborating even after some of the other posts previously were not so friendly.

in the other thread i said basically what some gals are saying here. it''s not about the SEX persay but more like ''beck and call'' or rather ''giving them everything they want without the marriage''. so many men think well life is great right now, why change anything. if there''s nothing to look fwd to then the men don''t always see a reason or need for change. and women are like WHAT? why not?? men and women are wired differently. most men don''t grow up daydreaming about being married with kids like a lot of gals do..or planning their wedding with friends or whatever.

so for me there are a lot of people who get into a relationship, start having sex, move in together and then are surprised when a year later the guy is like ''well i don''t know if i want to get married''. unless stuff is laid out beforehand or WHILE all of these life togetherness things are happening, no one should assume that 2 people are on the same page. if people laid out more things ahead of time, i think there''d be a lot less confusion between couples and women who feel desperate around year 2 or whatever when they realize they think he''s the one but he''s not sure.

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:51:45 PM
Author: Mara

so for me there are a lot of people who get into a relationship, start having sex, move in together and then are surprised when a year later the guy is like ''well i don''t know if i want to get married''. unless stuff is laid out beforehand or WHILE all of these life togetherness things are happening, no one should assume that 2 people are on the same page. if people laid out more things ahead of time, i think there''d be a lot less confusion between couples and women who feel desperate around year 2 or whatever when they realize they think he''s the one but he''s not sure.

WORD.

 

[TravelingGal]

Mara, take off your shoes please. I don''t care if they go with your OUTFIT. You''re always so cute, I feel I must de-cuteify you from time to time.

 

[Mara]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:54:14 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Mara, take off your shoes please. I don''t care if they go with your OUTFIT. You''re always so cute, I feel I must de-cuteify you from time to time.

Awww for you. Anything. Then you can see my new pedi and pretty toe rings. Still cute.

 

[TravelingGal]

I can''t even see my toes.

 

[Cookie_tyme]

Just to clarify, it is more than just sex, it is the whole of what a woman gives to a man w/o the privelege of marriage status. Cooking, cleaning, good conversation, walking his dog, someone to cuddle with on the sofa, someone helping to pay the bills. It''s like living in a home, with all the comforts - heat, electricity, cable, nice furniture, good meals, w/o paying for any of it! It''s almost like robbery to me. It''s dishonest in a sense. Again, my own opinion, and this applies to women who want to marry a guy who''s dragging his feet. I just feel disgusted when I see this going on, disgusted with the man for (IMO) taking advantage of the woman, and frustrated with the woman for not realizing what is happening. I realize that many women are totally fine with this, but it seems to me many are not. They''re uncomfortable, and have been for a long time. I want my words to exhort them to stand up, pack up, and find another man who will treat them as they deserve. That''s all.

" wanting to have sex is one of the worst reasons possible for getting married in my opinion " ~SarahLoves JS

Sarah, I agree with you here. Of course, I am talking about two people who are already "in love," friends, compatible, and all that jazz, not two random warm bodies who are waiting til the wedding night to have sex, and have no other reason to wed. I think you misunderstood me.

Thanks for all your kind words towards me. I am in a very different boat than most of you are. But I did have sex before marriage, and I have many haunting regrets. I hope going to college will be therapeutic for me. I think it will.

I think this has been a good dialogue for all of us. I have certainly learned some things.

Have a great weekend everyone.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:51:45 PM
Author: Mara

so for me there are a lot of people who get into a relationship, start having sex, move in together and then are surprised when a year later the guy is like 'well i don't know if i want to get married'. unless stuff is laid out beforehand or WHILE all of these life togetherness things are happening, no one should assume that 2 people are on the same page. if people laid out more things ahead of time, i think there'd be a lot less confusion between couples and women who feel desperate around year 2 or whatever when they realize they think he's the one but he's not sure.

YUP! (or as Sunnyd said: WORD)

But the thing is: What happens when you try to do this in good faith and with intellegence and STILL don't get a straight answer? This is where I am sitting. I mean, one would think that if you ask a straight question, it's not too much to ask to get a straight answer.

I met my BF on Match.com. Prior to that, I was married for a couple years, got divorced and took over a year to be intentionally relationshipless and instead get into counseling (which I still do), get my head oriented again and decide what I want. I had a lot of my girlfriends try to push me into "getting back out there," but I wanted time to figure myself and my wants/needs out. And when I was done doing that, I was almost 37, and I realized that I was not interested in dating a whole bunch of guys or being a serial girlfriend (being exclusive for 5-10 or more years and having it go nowhere). I have a girlfriend that is the same age I was when I got divorced - she's never been married, never wants to be married, never wants kids...she is content to date for fun and not be tied down to any one guy. She was hurt badly in her 20s and has decided that traditional relationships are not worth it to her. She tells guys, straight up, that if they are looking for a potential wife, she is not it and they should not waste their time. She also admitted that she bought her dog to be her companion, sleeping/couch-potato buddy, protector, work-out partner, etc....and that she dates solely to alleviate her sexual needs and need for conversation (in other words, to fill the emotional void that the dog cannot fill). Which is fine for her but not for me.

So, I set my profile up on Match as looking for a long-term relationship and I also wrote that I was marriage-minded. I went on a couple of dates with different guys, talked to several more that I decided I did not want to meet and then met my current BF. He said that he was attracted to my profile, in part because I was so honest and upfront about what I wanted and was looking for. During our first month or two of dating, I was adamant that I was looking for an LTR and that I expected to know where the relationship was going after the first year. He said at that time that he was looking for the same thing and was not the kind of guy who would "string a woman along."

OK. Now in the past two years, there have been all kinds of crisises in his personal life, a few in mine. I asked him recently where he saw the relationship going. At first, he said that he loves me but that he saw no future in it and also didn't have the "Omigod! She's the one!" sparks with me. So, just when I get myself steeled up to walk, he apologized, said that he didn't know where those things came from and finally confessed to being afraid of getting too permanently deep into a relationship because he never got over the feeling of failure when his 20 year marriage tanked. He wants to stick it out a bit more and see if we can salvage this and move forward. I said to him, "Don't do me any favors. If you want to break up and aren't because you're afraid to lose me, then save it." Which he said was not the case - he is confused and overwhelmed. And then he's been sending mixed messages - talking about putting an addition on his house to make room for me, being overly affectionate. Which makes me feel insecure and needy (feelings I hate) because I HEARD him basically tell me that I Was Not It, and part of me feels he is back-peddling. Whatever. And what I want to know is:

1) You KNEW what I was looking for, becasue I told you upfront. Why is it a shock now?

2) Being that you have the knowledge of what I am looking for,
why wait to now to admit that you may not be able to
deliver? Why not have done it, say, a year ago? And don't
tell me you "did not know until now."

This is my problem! I DID try to lay this down ahead of time. I could not have been more clear!

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[vslover]

Date: 2/22/2008 3:26:54 PM
Author: sandia_rose
And what I want to know is:


1) You KNEW what I was looking for, becasue I told you upfront. Why is it a shock now?


2) Being that you have the knowledge of what I am looking for,

why wait to now to admit that you may not be able to

deliver? Why not have done it, say, a year ago? And don''t

tell me you ''did not know until now.''


This is my problem! I DID try to lay this down ahead of time. I could not have been more clear!


Bridget in Connecticut.

I think there''s a difference between knowing someone is looking for marriage and making a commitment to marry someone...which kinda seems like it''s getting mixed up in your post. If a relationship is tried and doesn''t work out (because one person isn''t "feeling it") then I don''t feel you were misled...you just weren''t the one for him. KWIM?

 

[musey]

RE: Providing him with everything a wife does, without the marriage status...

I guess I just wouldn't want to feel like any of that was what he married me for, yanno? Before we were engaged, we lived together as though we were married. Nothing was withheld. When he proposed, I knew it was with no other motivation that that he loved me and wanted to spend our lives together. He didn't want someone to cook for him, or clean, or provide him comfort... because he knew he could get that without marrying me. No extra perks to gain from marriage than the marriage itself.

But he proposed anyway, simply because he wanted to marry me.


So I think it's less about withholding in order to give him motivation to marry you, and more about not giving of yourself without being able to receive what you need from him. For me, it was more rewarding to receive what I needed from him without having to motivate him with previously withheld "perks." For me, it would have been cheapened if I felt he had other motivation(s).

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/22/2008 3:53:24 PM
Author: vslover

I think there''s a difference between knowing someone is looking for marriage and making a commitment to marry someone...which kinda seems like it''s getting mixed up in your post. If a relationship is tried and doesn''t work out (because one person isn''t ''feeling it'') then I don''t feel you were misled...you just weren''t the one for him. KWIM?

My point is that, if he wasn''t "feeling it," then he should have said something a year ago. Now is a bit late getting out of the gate. I deliberately took it slow with introducing my son to him and letting our kids get to know each other, socializing with friends, etc. In other words, he had plenty of time to discern whether or not he was feeling it or not --- and it could have been brought out into the open sooner, BEFORE we went too far down the road. I would not be half as upset and conflicted if this came out sooner as opposed to later. Kind of like a friend of mine who got divorced after 25 years. Her husband admitted to her that he wasn''t feeling it as way back as 2-3 years into their marriage....but he felt obligated to stay because of the kids. And she was understandably p*ssed! She said, "I could have rebuilt my life had you told me THEN. Now it''s a bit more complex."

Bridget in Connecticut.