My reponse

[vslover]

Bridget...you may feel like you wasted a year and maybe in a way you did. But he didn't move forward with you, didn't have you move in or have children with you or anything that indicated you were more than dating. IMO he didn't lead you on. Your expectations may have been out of sync with what he was showing you...but you haven't gone "too far" to get out and find someone who not only deserves you but is THRILLED to be with you and KNOWS that you're the one. I hope you find him soon.

edited to fix your name...sorry

 

[SarahLovesJS]

I feel like this thread might end up getting out of hand again, but maybe I am wrong. I just don't really see what's so wrong with giving all the privileges of marriage before marriage. To me marriage is a legal affirmation of what two people feel. I want to clean for him and wash his clothes, and I am not in the position to get married right this minute. He, on the other hand, enjoys washing my clothes as well and he loves cooking dinner for me (he cooks more often than I do). I do more cleaning, he does more cooking. It's a partnership. To me marriage is a partnership, it's not like a sale of goods and services. It's not a business transaction to me. I don't know, maybe it is hard for me to wrap my head around this since I'm not in a situation where the guy would drag me on forever; however, I was very upfront with him when we first started talking about what we wanted in life I told him I would not wait forever for some guy to ask me to marry him. On the other hand, I told him I didn't want him proposing within the first year at all, I'd prefer around two minimum. Maybe that was too bossy of me, but he luckily felt the same way.

Marriage is about seeing eye to eye and working through problems while celebrating blessings. It was a business transaction in the 1800s when women experienced death at law via marriage. Unfortunately for FI I don't come with a dowry or even a contract to promise I'll clean for him. I come with the promise to care for him and love him and be there for him. After that, we will agree together as we do now who does what. Sometimes I pick up the cooking, sometimes he picks up the cooking. If we have a problem that's what communication is for. Hopefully I've made some sense, I don't know something is just irking me a bit.

I guess I still just don't really see what sex has to do with it. I mean I understand it's a commitment between two people and obviously can lead to children (without effective birth control) that bind them together forever. I just find it interesting that having sex with someone is equated to doing the dishes or something. Okay, so maybe this is what I am trying to say. To me, marriage is a status yes, but it's a legal affirmation of an emotional status. While it does change a lot legally such as joint-ownership of property, hospital visitation rights, etc., I do not see why if people can't get married yet for whatever reason it's not okay for them to be in that place of commitment emotionally. Maybe I misconstrued it again because looking over what cookie said it looks like she tried to say this only applies to people in the guy won't commit situation. I guess it depends on whether or not you see cooking, cleaning, and sex as giving away a part of yourself.

ETA: Sorry if I offended anyone, I am trying not to offend.

 

[bee*]

Glad to see you back to explain your post! I personally wasn''t offended by it at all, and I think that your message is a lot clearer in this post, as the last one did seem to get too mixed up with sex. Best of luck with college!!

 

[brooklyngirl]

I''ve read both threads, and it seems (no offense) that some ladies here are getting hung up on a the specifics that the OP used to illustrate her point -- i.e. sex, cooking, cleaning, etc. I think she is referring to the whole package, the family that is created in marriage, and that''s hard to describe, it''s not just the sum of sex, cooking, cleaning, conversation, company, etc. We see lots of posts here where the LIW is in *pain*, not comfortable with her place in life, and is waiting for her SO to propose, so that she can get to the place in life where she wants to be. It''s clear to me that the OP is talking to *those specific LIWs*. Her advice really boils down to "think long and hard before you give a guy a family without his commitment/consent, and don''t give him anything you''re uncomfortable giving outside of marriage. If you have already given him those things, and he''s dragging his feet, go find someone who wont!" Yes, it''s the same advice many of our mother would have given us, and in all honesty, I think it''s sound advice.

Just my .02.

-K

 

[honey22]

Hi Cookie_tyme. I just wanted to say thankyou. It took a ''big'' person to come back and explain your intentions. I was obviously one of the ones who strongly disagreed with you, but I appreciate you trying to clarity your position. I guess we are never all going to agree on a topic and although many of us disagreed with your initiatial post and it''s message, it did give us all food for thought. So, I guess we can nicely agree to disagree on this one.

I think some of us just get our ''panties in a bunch'' as someone pointed out. This can be such an emotional topic for many, strong emotions are going to get stirred up inevitably.

Welcome to PS! Make sure you stick around.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 2/22/2008 5:07:05 PM
Author: honey22
Hi Cookie_tyme. I just wanted to say thankyou. It took a ''big'' person to come back and explain your intentions. I was obviously one of the ones who strongly disagreed with you, but I appreciate you trying to clarity your position. I guess we are never all going to agree on a topic and although many of us disagreed with your initiatial post and it''s message, it did give us all food for thought. So, I guess we can nicely agree to disagree on this one.


I think some of us just get our ''panties in a bunch'' as someone pointed out. This can be such an emotional topic for many, strong emotions are going to get stirred up inevitably.


Welcome to PS! Make sure you stick around.

Haha yeah, I think I might still be getting my "panties in a bunch" because I analyze everything. And brooklyngirl no offense taken.

I agree I got stuck on her examples and wasn''t able to see her message because of them. Her message does make sense if you put that way.

 

[misscuppycake]

I, too, was very intrigued by your original post! I agreed with some parts and disagreed with others, but I could see that you did honestly have very good intentions with your post. MAJOR kudos going out to for going back to college! Truly admirable.

 

[princesss]

Hi!

Thanks for coming back to clarify. I was definitely one of the girls who got her feathers ruffled, and I''m glad you came back to explain. My feelings towards what you wrote before were definitely complicated (and I think that came through in my post). I did feel insulted, mostly because I felt that the I was being made to seem like a victim for a choice I willingly and happily made. A choice I still make. I felt like my BF was being attacked for something I agreed to.

But a part of me knew that you were really here to give support the best way you think. And that''s great. I really appreciate you giving another viewpoint. I wish all of this information had been in the last post. It would have given a lot more insight into why you felt the need to post it.

I''m sorry if my post hurt your feelings, when I went to re-respond the topic was closed.

I think some of your advice is great, and do think that it''s sad seeing so many girls put themselves completely out there for guys who won''t marry them. I think that women need to hold on to themselves, and often that doesn''t happen, but I think you and I disagree on what they need to hold onto.

I''m impressed that you still got yourself through HS, and I applaud you for being willing to start college now. Not everybody realizes that a degree is something you can get at any point in your life. I bet your family is really proud of you.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Not to throw a stone at this proverbal love fest...but, seriously...are you kidding me?

I can appreciate waiting till you''re married, and perhaps sleeping with a man does make him think twice about marrying you...

But, I also think that making love to someone is a true and beautiful way of "showing" love in a private, intimate manner.

I think your mistakes or regrets have flavored your opinions...as is true for many woman...however, I don''t believe the world is black and white--and likewise--neither is this topic...

I slept with my husband early on, before it was super serious...I got the ring without begging or with holding, or manipulating him...so, I guess you''re advice isn''t the end all-be all/one size fits all answer....

 

[Deelight]

Date: 2/22/2008 11:38:49 AM
Author: Patiently_Waiting

Date: 2/22/2008 11:29:45 AM

Author: Sha

Hi Cookietyme,


I didn''t contribute to the original thread either but was intrigued reading it. I admire you for coming back with such a warm response, and for sharing your own personal experiences with us. I learned a lot from your post and I hope others do too, and

I really appreciate the good intent with which you wrote it.

Ditto.

I just wanted to add my congrats that you are going to college and say that even though your experience may be different it does not mean that it will be any worse being older. I have attended university with many mature aged students and it really made no difference on how I felt towards them due to their age. No reason you still can''t have fun , Good luck with your scholarly endeavors.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 2/23/2008 12:26:06 AM
Author: Deelight

Date: 2/22/2008 11:38:49 AM

Author: Patiently_Waiting

Date: 2/22/2008 11:29:45 AM


Author: Sha


Hi Cookietyme,



I didn''t contribute to the original thread either but was intrigued reading it. I admire you for coming back with such a warm response, and for sharing your own personal experiences with us. I learned a lot from your post and I hope others do too, and


I really appreciate the good intent with which you wrote it.

Ditto.

I just wanted to add my congrats that you are going to college and say that even though your experience may be different it does not mean that it will be any worse being older. I have attended university with many mature aged students and it really made no difference on how I felt towards them due to their age. No reason you still can''t have fun , Good luck with your scholarly endeavors.

I agree, one of my best friends is older than me (and older than my Mom actually), but she is awesome. I really respect her advice and I love taking classes with someone who is actually happy to be there and loves learning. She is really inspiring!

 

[risingsun]

Date: 2/22/2008 4:33:16 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS
I feel like this thread might end up getting out of hand again, but maybe I am wrong. I just don't really see what's so wrong with giving all the privileges of marriage before marriage. To me marriage is a legal affirmation of what two people feel. I want to clean for him and wash his clothes, and I am not in the position to get married right this minute. He, on the other hand, enjoys washing my clothes as well and he loves cooking dinner for me (he cooks more often than I do). I do more cleaning, he does more cooking. It's a partnership. To me marriage is a partnership, it's not like a sale of goods and services. It's not a business transaction to me. I don't know, maybe it is hard for me to wrap my head around this since I'm not in a situation where the guy would drag me on forever; however, I was very upfront with him when we first started talking about what we wanted in life I told him I would not wait forever for some guy to ask me to marry him. On the other hand, I told him I didn't want him proposing within the first year at all, I'd prefer around two minimum. Maybe that was too bossy of me, but he luckily felt the same way.

Marriage is about seeing eye to eye and working through problems while celebrating blessings. It was a business transaction in the 1800s when women experienced death at law via marriage. Unfortunately for FI I don't come with a dowry or even a contract to promise I'll clean for him. I come with the promise to care for him and love him and be there for him. After that, we will agree together as we do now who does what. Sometimes I pick up the cooking, sometimes he picks up the cooking. If we have a problem that's what communication is for. Hopefully I've made some sense, I don't know something is just irking me a bit.

I guess I still just don't really see what sex has to do with it. I mean I understand it's a commitment between two people and obviously can lead to children (without effective birth control) that bind them together forever. I just find it interesting that having sex with someone is equated to doing the dishes or something. Okay, so maybe this is what I am trying to say. To me, marriage is a status yes, but it's a legal affirmation of an emotional status. While it does change a lot legally such as joint-ownership of property, hospital visitation rights, etc., I do not see why if people can't get married yet for whatever reason it's not okay for them to be in that place of commitment emotionally. Maybe I misconstrued it again because looking over what cookie said it looks like she tried to say this only applies to people in the guy won't commit situation. I guess it depends on whether or not you see cooking, cleaning, and sex as giving away a part of yourself.

ETA: Sorry if I offended anyone, I am trying not to offend.

When my husband and I married, he became my family. That is a profound experience. I lived with him prior to our marriage and we loved each other dearly, but taking the next step into marriage felt like deepest level of commitment--in every sense of the word--that we could make. And that is just my opinion. I also read the OP's opinion and didn't think it was necessary for her to be

for having it.

 

[diamondfan]

I think you are a very strong woman. I applaud you going back to school, and I hear the regret in your posts about having missed out on certain experiences. I somewhat missed out on the college life too, I went, but I lived at home, and even though I joined a sorority so I would feel connected, I dropped out as a pledge. I took a year off of school to travel and did come back to get my degree, but I felt like a commuter student. My niece is in college and when I hear all the fun stuff she is doing I have some pangs. BUT, and it is a big but, good things evolve out of other things so we cannot always be too regretful. I also used sex as a form of showing love and affection, having lost my dad at 15 and having my mom basically hide her grief with globe trotting, I was fending for myself without much support. To me at that time of my life, sex=affection=caring=love. I thought it made me a grown up and that it meant I was special. If someone will do that with you, they must love you. Totally naive and silly. Sex is a great part of a loving relationship and is wonderful, but does not define anything.

It is totally different if you are on the same page. And I think what you were really saying was to view the totality of a relationship, being in it and giving totally of yourself, being there in every way for your man, on every level, being available, when maybe HE is not giving you the same. And, marriage is not for all people, some people are really content and make it work without the paper, but it is the depth and breadth of the commitment that is at the core. Just cohabiting is not a relationship. I had friends in college who did it ALL for their man. Laundry, errands, shopping, cleaning, cooking. They would stay in to do the laundry while he was out with buddies drinking. They were intimate sexually, but truly, it would turn out yeah, he appreciated all she did, but hey, he was not too committed and if she was not happy with the arrangement she could leave, not a big deal, and he could find another girl who would be fine with it. Bottom line, it was not the actions of being involved and the doing of things and the sex, because all of that existed but there was no intimacy in the true sense. Of course all that occurs in daily life. It does not get more real than that, and life can throw some real crap at us. It is not all moonlight and roses. But to me, it is, is this person the one I want to be with if something bad happens? Do I feel, forgetting any petty stuff, feel that this person has my back? To me, having been married almost 18 years, I have seen a lot and we have experienced a lot too. When you love someone, you ride out stuff that might have caused you to bail out with someone else. And I am not opposed to living with someone and doing things for them, so long as you both have the same goals toward the future, whatever they might be. This way, hopefully no one feels misled or that they went in with one set of expectations and their partner had another set.

So I think I get your point of saying, just be real, and know for some guys, they are happy to roll along with the status quo when you are meeting all their needs, knowing you want more and sort of stalling about it...but what about your needs in the situation? I think it is about knowing what will make you happy, what will work for you, and telling yourself you deserve to have it! We have to be our own best cheerleaders in life. And it may not work out the way we want it either, but if you love someone, you have the motivation to try to stick it out...sometimes to a good conclusion but sometimes not.

 

[surfgirl]

marian, diamondfan, well said ladies. Well said.

 

[hisdiamondgirl]

AAAAAAAAggghhhhhhhh, so I just lost a really long post I had written!

I won''t try to rewrite the whole thing but I will summarize!

I didn''t contribute to the original thread because by the time I got to it, it had already gotten a little out of hand and I didn''t think it was worth responding, but I will do so here!

Although I wasn''t really offended by the original post, I can understand why some of the ladies here would have been. First, although this is almost a non-issue since Cookie now came back and clarified her intentions, the tone of the original post was a little "holier-than-thou" which is not always, if ever, conducive to the advice, no matter how sound it may be, being heard and well received. Second, and I think most importantly, the advice was not given in response to a particular post or a particular situation, but it was simply a general post, which we took as being addressed generally to all of us. So those of us who do have pre-marital sex with our SOs felt a little attacked, and felt that our SOs were also being attacked.

I did take the post a little personally because I currently practically live with my BF in that he spends 5/7 nights at my house. I think it is a very harsh generalization to assume that those of us in my situation or who actually live with their SOs are giving our men the benefits of a "wife" or "family" without getting anything back in return. While we may not be getting what we really want RIGHT NOW (the sparkly on the ring finger

), from what I have read, most of the ladies on this board seem to be in relationships that are also fulfilling to them. For one, I know that being in my current situation, I get the same benefits as having a husband around, including a warm body to cuddle with ME as I''m the cuddler in this relationship. Both of us make sacrifices and compromise for the sake of each other and the relationship. It is hardly a one-sided thing, and I doubt that many of the ladies who post here are in that kind of one-sided relationship, where all they do is give and give and give and get nothing in return. (If you noticed, I said “most” and “many of the ladies” which means that I do believe that the advice given would be appropriate to some of the ladies who have posted here but I think it is best reserved for those particular situations.)

As someone already said, most of the women here seem to be educated career women who can take care of themselves, and who sometimes come here for support when they are not feeling their best. Maybe this is why our posts may seem desperate to others not in our situations. I do not believe that this means that the ladies who come to vent are “in pain” or generally unhappy in their relationships.

Also, I think that the advice given by the OP is very sound and applicable to certain situations. However, (and no offense to you, Cookie, I admire you for having made it and being the ambitious woman that you seem to be), most of us are not 17 years old and in high school, and with age and maturity we have been able to make more deliberate decisions about our lives and our sexuality.

I actually think that this ended up being longer than the original post I lost but anyway, I just wanted to contribute to the discourse!!!

 

[~*Alexis*~]

I applaud you for giving your piece of information to this topic as it has been discussed before.

I have lived with ex boyfriends and I currently live with my FFI. I also have 2 step kids and pay for 1/2 the bills. Although we have an understanding that I want to get married withing the next couple of years. I told him that was not an option. I also told him I wanted a baby of ''our'' own and not just ''his'' kids as that topic was important to me.

Not all relationships are about sex just like all marriages are about love. Some of them are more about business transactions. Its what works for people.

My background...my mom got pregnant at 17 with my older brother, my grandmom told her to have an abortion even though she was a lady of fellowship at the church and my grandfather was a deacon. My mother told them no because it was against her religion. She left home and did not talk to her parents for over 15 years. My mom was 17 at the time, then at 19 she met my father and had me. At 21 she had my younger brother.

Was it a great choice to make to have 3 kids by 21? Probably not. but it was in fact HER choice. She also struggled to raise us kids by how SHE wanted us raised. My older brother has a different father than my younger brother and I. She was abused by him and he would smack her around when she was pregnant with my OB. My father met her while she was with him and took her out of that situation. Talk about a knight in shining armor. That was followed by 2 more kids.

My parents did not get married until 1992. I was in the second grade. It was a hard life for her but it was on her terms. She does not judge people for their decisions as neither do i.

However, I also got pregnant at 21 with my ex bf. He cheated on me and lead me to believe that if I had an abortion that we would be able to work it out and be together and we would get married. I was STUPID, I believed him and it was hard decision to make. However i made that decision based on who he was and what type of person he was and in the long run he is a worthless waste of space and he should not be a father period. I got out of that realtionship. I used sex to try and keep it together when deep down I knew it would never work out.

However, I do agree that there is a HUGE different between having sex and marriage. Dont get married just because you want sex and dont have sex just because you want marriage. You will lose both battles and in the long run your life will never amount to the potential that it could have reached had women followed their hearts and did what was best rather than holding onto a relationship just because they are scared to be alone, want to get married, or want to live a life due to expectations to do so.

I am not preaching and everyone has their own ways of doing things, there are members on this board who are "seasoned" members who have a lot of advice to offer and sometimes they mean well, but at the end of the day they are your decisions to make.

Unless you are willing to hear the harsh reality of things or hear harsh opinions than dont answer the question.

Ok off my soapbox.......

So I neither agree nor disagree with sex vs marriage. Do what your heart tells you to do.

 

[moderatelypoorstudent]

Hey,
I didnt respond to either post but I just thought I''d add my interpretation of cookie tyme''s posts:

Maybe she''s just trying to say: if you always said to yourself, I would never (fill in the blank) before marriage and ended up giving it to him/doing it for him with the idea in mind that after I did that, we''d get engaged/married then perhaps you are being taken advantage of because in your head you were saying, but I never wanted to do x/y/z before marriage!!!

I mean... we could be talking about giving away plastic beads here for all it really matters, sure the stereotypical lists include cooking/cleaning/sex/laundry etc but I mean truth be told, the whole point is:
If you are giving your man something that you yourself wanted not to wait till you were engaged/married to do and you are NOT COMFORTABLE with it, then perhaps your relationship is unequal or not optimal in some way because you are not where you want to be.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving all the "privilegs of marriage" before marriage so long as both of you are enjoying it. However, a few threads on this forum start with: but I DO EVERYTHING! Why doesn''t he want to marry me already?
The best question to really be asking in that situation is: why in holy heck am I doing everything??? But sometimes we fail to see that.

But again, if you are comfortable with everything you are doing... then there''s no advantage being taken. It''s only when a girl comes to the forum and whines about not having progress and doing things she didn''t want to do, that it seems like there''s an issue.

Personal example inserted: skip over if bored please! I initially didnt want to move in with my SO before marriage, I thought it would mean all that cow milk stuff. So when I moved to the same city as him with a new and great job, I opted to get my own apartment. I ended up staying at his place 7 days a week, and pretty much went to my apt to drop off rent. So in essence, I did live with him and I was never happier. It really gave me the opportunity to see how the two of us were when living together, not to mention in a small small apartment! So if I look back, because I was so happy, I don''t feel like I was "taken advantage" of. However, if I had been unhappy about that for any reason, I could see myself bailing on him pretty quick!!

I think it''s all about personal comfort. Hey... keep your hands off my beads! Those are for after marriage!!!!

 

[FrekeChild]

Hmmm...This thread has long since been abandoned, but since I was one of the main offenders in the original thread I figured, better late than never. And I resisted looking at this thread at all until tonight when I seemed to have looked at every green high heel thats on the internet, and decided to come back and take a look.

First of all, I''d like to apologize to CT for pretty much everything I said. I was in a snitty mood from school-related stress and unfortunately I took her words very seriously and obviously personally. I also would like to applaud her for going back to school, I''m doing that myself right now-only at the ripe ol'' age of 25

, but I still feel ancient around these little 18 year olds. So I also wish Cookie the best of luck.

I am glad to come back and read the OPs story and realize FULLY that she is speaking from her own experience, and knowing that while good-intentioned, was met with the wrong regard from myself, and so many others. I give her many kudos for coming back and responding to my abuse with such class.

I had spent a good long time writing a post in response to the original thread and tried to post it just after Ali had locked it. I did however save said post. My reasoning for taking such offense to the OP''s opinion is that I felt that she was (unintentionally) attacking my BF, who obviously doesn''t have a voice to defend himself on here. I think that comes out in what I wrote. I have decided to post my original reply in its entirety, even though it probably won''t make much sense now.

"Yeah...I hear you Sandia, the "my house" comment was taken totally the wrong way by more than one person, which happens with me on the internet a lot because I''m awfully sarcastic in real life and that just doesn''t come across over the internet.

Ever since opening this thread I''ve wondered...troll...And I wonder why it hadn''t been brought up until only the past couple of hours or so.

I''ll have to admit that I''ve been a little bit of a loose canon today because of outside influences, and this thread really irked me. In case no one else could tell.

I''ve been told more times than I can count about how living together is awful and no man wants a "used" woman, and how the divorce rates are higher for people who live together, etc. Guess what? I don''t care and you''re not in my shoes.

Another thing is this gross generalization of a man not being decent if he lives with his GF. Who says? I took offense to this for D, because he''s beyond decent, he''s pretty amazing. Also, the comment of the OP mentioning that all mothers of our BFs are whispering in his ear about what hussies we are and to take the *pure* one-guess what? My BFs mother passed away two years ago, and reading that line would have probably hurt him because she didn''t get to meet me, and get the chance to whisper in his ear, "thats the one".

And this other BS about dishonoring me because he''s not committing his life to me for good? He has committed to me, but this for life nonsense... Haven''t you heard of divorce? What about all those men? Was 40+% of the population only getting married to get some nookie? Is that the reason for so much divorce?

Making gross generalizations about any group of people is most often hurtful. And obviously today was not the day for me to read something so judgmental. Every time I''ve read through the OP''s post I have a vision in my head of Maid Marian in her ginormous chastity belt in "Robin Hood: Men in Tights"- and to me, it''s outdated, unrealistic and ridiculous. Yes, that was a judgmental statement.

If I told D that I wanted to wait until I got married for any sex, he''d think that''s totally weird, and it wouldn''t prompt him to go out and buy a ring instantly. Why? Not because he''s uncommitted to me, or because he''s not a nice guy but because WE AREN''T READY YET. Neither one of us is finished with our desired degrees, neither one is financially stable to make it feasible, and we both have more important priorities, such as putting food on the table. Sex is not the reason.

Besides, I have my own methods for getting rid of the not nice guys. It''s called, having a divorce lawyer for a father. Nothing scares off a guy who is in it just for sex like having that around. He smells a bad one from miles away. It''s been referred to by exes as worse than a shotgun toting father.

Having said all of that, I think that if the OP had thought about what she was going to say and who she was saying it to, like any politician, it could have been a very interesting thread indeed. And educational to boot. However, when a person starts out with judgment in their words, it''s hard to overlook that initial irritation.

With all this talk of Korean food, ice cream, milk and sausage, I think it''s only appropriate to make some pasta with hot Italian Sausage in a cream sauce with veggies for dinner."

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 3/11/2008 1:10:15 AM
Author: FrekeChild

Another thing is this gross generalization of a man not being decent if he lives with his GF. Who says? I took offense to this for D, because he''s beyond decent, he''s pretty amazing.

I also felt this way. FI is such an amazing guy, and he is not living with me to "get the milk for free."