''Native'' cut stones

[purrfectpear]

No problem. Next time I''ll just say cut by someone with an eye toward carat weight, and a blind eye towards symmetry. Or, I could use the term Guppy Cut, since many of those stones look like a very pregnant guppy

 

[Linda W]

Date: 10/8/2008 11:53:10 AM
Author: purrfectpear
No problem. Next time I''ll just say cut by someone with an eye toward carat weight, and a blind eye towards symmetry. Or, I could use the term Guppy Cut, since many of those stones look like a very pregnant guppy

HA!!!, some of them do look like a pregnant guppy, ha ha ha.

 

[LD]

Date: 10/8/2008 11:29:44 AM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 10/8/2008 9:32:00 AM
Author: strmrdr
The very simple fact of the matter is that native cut is an accepted trade term all over the world and is the proper term and there is nothing racist about it.
No amount of grumping about it is going to change that.

I agree that the term is an accepted trade term and I have no problem with people using it at all - as long as it is used correctly ie to indicate a stone that is cut in it''s country of origin.

It is not the term itself that I consider racist, or at the very least offensive, but the disparaging tones in which its use is intended rather frequently round here. I am certainly not the only person here who feels this way.

As you can see from other posts, people allocate the term a range of meanings to the term rather than just the one it actually implies.

All I am asking is that if people want to comment on a stone being poorly cut, that they say ''this stone is poorly cut'' rather than ''this stone is native cut'' to imply the former.

That was all you had to say instead of using the word "racist" and making me, for one, feel like I was being attacked.

We all use words without thinking, you used the word "racist" and implied that I was being so - whether you meant it to be read like that or not. It''s very easy to misinterpret the written word if you don''t know someone. If you look at my reply in the other thread you''ll see that when I was asked what I meant by "native cut" I responded by talking about cut. At no point did I ever mention the country of origin because it''s not something that had even crossed my mind. As Karl has said earlier, the term has been used by people I associate with to mean cut not origin and I believed it to be an acceptable descriptor.

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 10/8/2008 11:47:22 AM
Author: FinewaterGems
As a fairly new cutter, I had bought into the idea that ''precision'' cutting was always superior to ''native'' cuts. That is, until I bought some nice blue zircons last year in Chanthaburi, Thailand. They were actually well cut, but I thought that I could improve them by recutting. I was shocked to find out that recutting did not really help. The brilliance was improved, but the color was less saturated. It was a humbling realization that maybe these cutters know what they are doing (they''ve only been doing this for hundreds of years!) A well cut stone is a well cut stone - no matter where it comes from. In fact, I''m planning a buying trip to Sri Lanka in January and will make it a point to visit some lapidaries to learn more about their cutting and orientation techniques.

I''m going out to SL next Friday for 15 days including 5 in Ratnapura.

There''s a guy in Ratnapura who runs lapidary courses - I had a look, but they are very basic. Probably better to do some one-to-one with a decent company. I''m meeting a couple of the biggest dealers in Colombo through a mutual friend, so I can make some enquires for you if you like.

 

[Harriet]

Fine. Let us agree that "native cut" does not have racist connotations, even if what it denotes is unclear. That said, the term has been bandied around these parts as a perjorative and a synonym for "badly cut." For the record, I am open to different types of cuts, native or precision (I own a H&A diamond). But, and this is a big but, the colour must be right.

 

[PrecisionGem]

There are a lot of overseas cutters who are using modern US made faceting machines, so native cut doesn''t always imply jam peg cutting. I agree the term "native cut" is misleading, but if you are in this business it''s a word that is used, and maybe distorted a bit.

Saturation is another word that I see being miss used here. I think people are confusing saturation with tone. A deeper stone will increase tone, but it won''t change the saturation. Saturation as used in the gemstone business refers to the purity of color. A stone could be very very light, but have high saturation.

About weight retention, my feeling is that often the "precision" cutters get better weight retention than, lets call them the assembly line cutters. We spend more time planning the cut out, and will often use a cut that maximized the stone more, than a few standard shapes would (round, oval, cushion). From what I have seen, people have sent parcels to China to be cut and have gotten around 10-15% yield back. I have never had a stone yield this low. Of course I''m very selective of the rough I buy, and look for shapes that will yield well.

 

[colormyworld]

Gene next time you have a large aqua with not very good color cut it down to a small stone. tell me if the SATURATION stays the same. I will bet you a dollar to a dounut that the stone will look almost colorless. That loss of color is not just tone.

 

[FrekeChild]

You have two different definitions of the word "saturation". Get over it.

Sorry for my snippiness, but I''m getting sick of the saturation and "native cut" debates.

BTW, I know a precision cutter who''s wife''s engagement ring is native cut. And he''s ok with that.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 10/8/2008 4:31:57 PM
Author: FrekeChild
You have two different definitions of the word ''saturation''. Get over it.

Sorry for my snippiness, but I''m getting sick of the saturation and ''native cut'' debates.

BTW, I know a precision cutter who''s wife''s engagement ring is native cut. And he''s ok with that.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Just please don''t try to tell me what I need to get over as that is not your concern. If you don''t like what I have to say you are more than welcome to ignore my posts!!!

 

[Linda W]

Doug, This is the second time you have said negative things to Gene. Is there a reason why?



Linda

 

[FrekeChild]

FYI I was not just responding to you. I''m tired of the bickering. Period.

I''m wondering the same thing Linda.

 

[Harriet]

Bickering? To me, this thread is a lively debate between some people with experience and expertise and I''m learning from it.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 10/8/2008 4:45:26 PM
Author: Linda W
Doug, This is the second time you have said negative things to Gene. Is there a reason why?



Linda

How can my last comment be considered negetive? If youi take a large stone graded with moderate saturation and cut it down to a small stone. It will grade as less saturated. It will also lose tone BUT the saturation will also decrease. This is a fact. The reverse of this is if you have a small stone say 1ct with perfect tone and saturation and could some how up the size of it to say a five ct stone. It would be over saturated and be too dark. Ant hill chrome pyrope garnets are a perfect example of this effect. While I agree that the stone itself does not change the face up effect does . And to say optherwise is misleading. This is how colored stones are graded. By thier face up appearance.

 

[Linda W]

Date: 10/8/2008 5:12:36 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 10/8/2008 4:45:26 PM

Author: Linda W

Doug, This is the second time you have said negative things to Gene. Is there a reason why?




Linda

How can my last comment be considered negetive? If youi take a large stone graded with moderate saturation and cut it down to a small stone. It will grade as less saturated. It will also lose tone BUT the saturation will also decrease. This is a fact. The reverse of this is if you have a small stone say 1ct with perfect tone and saturation and could some how up the size of it to say a five ct stone. It would be over saturated and be too dark. Ant hill chrome pyrope garnets are a perfect example of this effect. While I agree that the stone itself does not change the face up effect does . And to say optherwise is misleading. This is how stone are graded. By thier face up appearance.

OK my friend, you just taught me something

and thank you.

 

[colormyworld]

You are quite welcome Linda. I am not here to sell my stones. Just trying to help others see what I see when looking at them.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 10/8/2008 5:10:51 PM
Author: Harriet
Bickering? To me, this thread is a lively debate between some people with experience and expertise and I''m learning from it.

I''d be inclined to agree with you lovely Harriet, if it were the first time the tone/saturation debate occurred. Since it''s not...I''m inclined to say that it''s bickering. IMO as always.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/8/2008 5:12:36 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 10/8/2008 4:45:26 PM


How can my last comment be considered negative? If you take a large stone graded with moderate saturation and cut it down to a small stone. It will grade as less saturated. It will also lose tone BUT the saturation will also decrease. This is a fact. The reverse of this is if you have a small stone say 1ct with perfect tone and saturation and could some how up the size of it to say a five ct stone. It would be over saturated and be too dark. Ant hill chrome pyrope garnets are a perfect example of this effect. While I agree that the stone itself does not change the face up effect does . And to say otherwise is misleading. This is how colored stones are graded. By their face up appearance.

This is also misleading even if it is sometimes true it is not always true.
It all depends on the light paths of the stone.
If the recut increases the light paths the apparent tone and saturation gets darker.
If the recut decreases the light path the apparent tone and saturation gets lighter.

Take the rough that has not had the shape dictated by prior cutting and you could cut a darker smaller stone or a lighter larger stone by playing with the light paths.
For example a well cut radiant will appear darker than a well cut larger RB cut when both have proper angles to get good light return from the same material.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 10/8/2008 5:43:32 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/8/2008 5:12:36 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 10/8/2008 4:45:26 PM


How can my last comment be considered negative? If you take a large stone graded with moderate saturation and cut it down to a small stone. It will grade as less saturated. It will also lose tone BUT the saturation will also decrease. This is a fact. The reverse of this is if you have a small stone say 1ct with perfect tone and saturation and could some how up the size of it to say a five ct stone. It would be over saturated and be too dark. Ant hill chrome pyrope garnets are a perfect example of this effect. While I agree that the stone itself does not change the face up effect does . And to say otherwise is misleading. This is how colored stones are graded. By their face up appearance.

This is also misleading even if it is sometimes true it is not always true.
It all depends on the light paths of the stone.
If the recut increases the light paths the apparent tone and saturation gets darker.
If the recut decreases the light path the apparent tone and saturation gets lighter.

Take the rough that has not had the shape dictated by prior cutting and you could cut a darker smaller stone or a lighter larger stone by playing with the light paths.
For example a well cut radiant will appear darker than a well cut larger RB cut when both have proper angles to get good light return from the same material.

stmrdr while I basicly agree with the theroy. With diffused lighting what I see in real life is some what differnt.

While we're pointing out flaws in theroies, I might as well point out what I said about pyrope garnets is not technicaly correct. In that situation according to GIA teachings. As the tone increases saturation may decrease. Not a good example. I stand by my point about the more stone the light goes through the better the saturation.Unless of course we are talking about stones that have a very grayish or brownish component in which case you get a lot more tone.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/8/2008 6:29:51 PM
Author: colormyworld

While we're pointing out flaws in theroies, I might as well point out what I said about pyrope garnets is not technicaly correct. In that situation according to GIA teachings. As the tone increases saturation may decrease. Not a good example. I stand by my point about the more stone the light goes through the better the saturation.Unless of course we are talking about stones that have a very grayish or brownish component in which case you get a lot more tone.

What I bolded above is a longer light path.
But light path is not entirely dependent on stone size.

There is also another variable and that is light return.
Higher or lower light return can change apparent tone and saturation.
Tone and saturation are related when it comes to gemstones they are defined as:
Saturation: A measure of the intensity of color inherent in a gemstone. Stones that are well saturated with color are more valuable.
Tone: How light or dark a color appears.

Now if you take a pink stone and a red stone of the same material which is different saturation or tone or light return or all 3 or 2 of them?

 

[simplysplendid]

I had always thought the term "native cut" meant that the gemstone was cut where it was mined. There are good native cuts and poor native cuts and I agree that the good native cuts do seem to bring out the best colour possible in a gemstone. My pricier pieces are all good native cuts stone and I have just sent my jeweler a hunting for a 2-3ct untreated ruby and I expect and want a native cut as well.

That said, I didn''t feel that the term is racist even if it was used by those who thought "native cut" meant "poorly cut", but that''s just me.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 10/8/2008 11:29:44 AM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 10/8/2008 9:32:00 AM
Author: strmrdr
The very simple fact of the matter is that native cut is an accepted trade term all over the world and is the proper term and there is nothing racist about it.
No amount of grumping about it is going to change that.

I agree that the term is an accepted trade term and I have no problem with people using it at all - as long as it is used correctly ie to indicate a stone that is cut in it''s country of origin.

It is not the term itself that I consider racist, or at the very least offensive, but the disparaging tones in which its use is intended rather frequently round here. I am certainly not the only person here who feels this way.

As you can see from other posts, people allocate the term a range of meanings to the term rather than just the one it actually implies.

All I am asking is that if people want to comment on a stone being poorly cut, that they say ''this stone is poorly cut'' rather than ''this stone is native cut'' to imply the former.

Ah.. I see your point now..

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 10/8/2008 3:10:01 PM
Author: Harriet
Fine. Let us agree that ''native cut'' does not have racist connotations, even if what it denotes is unclear. That said, the term has been bandied around these parts as a perjorative and a synonym for ''badly cut.'' For the record, I am open to different types of cuts, native or precision (I own a H&A diamond). But, and this is a big but, the colour must be right.

Could not have said it better than myself.

I like hearing differing opinions. Helps me learn more.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Doug, the problem is you are not using the terms correctly. To help explain it to you, here are some images from Gem-e-wizard. This is a nice tool to define and convey the color, tone, and saturation of gem. The problem is, people are getting confused with the term saturation.

This first image shows the same tone, but different saturation. The size of the stone or depth of the pavilion has no bearing on the saturation.

 

[PrecisionGem]

this next image shows TONE, all with the same Saturation. The color is the same for each stone, and the saturation is the same, just the tone will vary. So if you took a large Aqua, and cut it smaller, yes the tone would be less, but the saturation would be the same, as would the color.

There is not trick that a "native cutter" knows that can turn a saturation of 1 into 3. A windowed stone, will make the the tone look lighter however.

 

[colormyworld]

Gene I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I know a cutter can not influence saturation so drasticly. But I still believe that the more stone light goes through the more intense the color will be. As with the aqua example I used. A stone with perhaps a 3 saturation in a five caret stone if cut down to a one caret size will lose saturation. Not just tone. IMO I know my glass example is not a gemstone but the princple is the same. If what you are saying is correct the glass would just be gray. Not a green color.

 

[PrecisionGem]

The glass is most likely tinted green ever so slightly. So when you look out the window you don''t really notice it, however once you view through the edge, you are now looking through 30 inches of glass the TONE is darker. The Saturation is still the same.

I didn''t make this stuff up, it''s just the way gemstones are graded. Look at the GIA gem sets, or the Gem-e-wizzard site. There are other grading systems, and they all basically work the same way, and define saturation and tone the same.

 

[colormyworld]

While the saturation is the same. after light travels through the thirty inches it becomes visable which in essence is an increase. When viewed straight through the pane no saturation is seen ie no saturation to grade. Edge on green is seen which can be graded. Of course the less distance light travels through the glass the less saturated the color will be. It is not just tone (gray, brown) but actual color.

 

[chrono]

Please keep up this discussion. It is very interesting and an enlightening; I do not consider it bickering at all. It is good to hear everyone's opinions and intepretation of facts as these can change over time.

I, myself, see native cutting as cut in the country of origin. There are great native cutting and really bad ones. I know that many people have come to incorrectly label all poorly cut stones as native cut so I don't get all excited over it.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/8/2008 11:47:22 AM
Author: FinewaterGems
As a fairly new cutter, I had bought into the idea that ''precision'' cutting was always superior to ''native'' cuts. That is, until I bought some nice blue zircons last year in Chanthaburi, Thailand. They were actually well cut, but I thought that I could improve them by recutting. I was shocked to find out that recutting did not really help. The brilliance was improved, but the color was less saturated. It was a humbling realization that maybe these cutters know what they are doing (they''ve only been doing this for hundreds of years!) A well cut stone is a well cut stone - no matter where it comes from. In fact, I''m planning a buying trip to Sri Lanka in January and will make it a point to visit some lapidaries to learn more about their cutting and orientation techniques.

Hey, is that you Gary?
Nice to see you on the forum, and welcome!

Just fyi, you are required as someone "in the trade" to put said info in your signature.
I hope you enjoy reading and posting here, more gem-heads are always welcome!

 

[Ali]

Date: 10/9/2008 8:34:52 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 10/8/2008 11:47:22 AM
Author: FinewaterGems
As a fairly new cutter, I had bought into the idea that ''precision'' cutting was always superior to ''native'' cuts. That is, until I bought some nice blue zircons last year in Chanthaburi, Thailand. They were actually well cut, but I thought that I could improve them by recutting. I was shocked to find out that recutting did not really help. The brilliance was improved, but the color was less saturated. It was a humbling realization that maybe these cutters know what they are doing (they''ve only been doing this for hundreds of years!) A well cut stone is a well cut stone - no matter where it comes from. In fact, I''m planning a buying trip to Sri Lanka in January and will make it a point to visit some lapidaries to learn more about their cutting and orientation techniques.

Hey, is that you Gary?
Nice to see you on the forum, and welcome!

Just fyi, you are required as someone ''in the trade'' to put said info in your signature.
I hope you enjoy reading and posting here, more gem-heads are always welcome!

Actually, it isn''t required to be in the signature, but we allow it as a benefit. Trade members are only required to state their professional association in their profile, which is kept private.