Need opinions on EBay tsavorite.

[LoversKites]

A friend of mine (apparently liking gems is contagious) bought a tsavorite from a thai vendor after I showed it to him for $40 because he really liked it from the images. It seemed like a good price for a slightly included (with a somewhat scary-looking surface reaching crack) 1.84ct medium green tsav with below average, but not awful, cut. I bought a pink spinel from this vendor before and it looked just like it did in the vendor pics. I get the feeling that this vendor is relatively honest, from the messages I've exchanged.

And in person, the tsav's colour is way better Like, that highlighter, slightly yellowish green. It's quite saturated. It's eye-clean and the surface reaching inclusion is not as bad as it seemed. It actually has a second surface reaching inclusion which is iridescent and looks really pretty. With the pink spinel I bought, the inclusions also seemed much more glaring in the photo, which makes sense because the photos are magnified.

But I'm a bit concerned. Could it be a synthetic? Green YAG garnet? I know the pics and info are not much to go by, but any opinions are still welcome. I will try take better photos of the iridescent inclusion in particular this week. I just love that inclusion.

 

[LoversKites]

You just have to trust me when I say it looks 500% better IRL. I took a quick handshot. The bowtie area, which is much less defined IRL, is the closest of all the pics to the real colour of the gem, but in the handshot there is a bit more yellow, and it simply doesn't look as good.

Colour me green.

(edited in both posts due to uploading wrong pics. Sorry)

Oh and by the way the vendor is anglegem on ebay.

 

[chrono]

Are you absolutely sure you are seeing an iridescent inclusion? If so, then I highly suspect that it has been (lead glass) fracture filled to improve both the clarity and stability of the garnet.

 

[LoversKites]

Are you absolutely sure you are seeing an iridescent inclusion? If so, then I highly suspect that it has been (lead glass) fracture filled to improve both the clarity and stability of the garnet.

Yes, it was definitely iridescent. Oh well, I suspected as much. It's still really pretty. The inclusion breached the surface.

 

[LoversKites]

Are you absolutely sure you are seeing an iridescent inclusion? If so, then I highly suspect that it has been (lead glass) fracture filled to improve both the clarity and stability of the garnet.

I just found a thread on a different forum about iridescent garnet inclusions. Apparently, it can occur in untreated garnets and in treated garnets. I tried to reword a post from there about iridescent inclusions in untreated garnets, but he put it so well, I'm gonna copy and paste what he wrote here:

"My guess, from many thousands of miles away, is that those fractures have naturally occurring iron oxide stains in the fractures. Many minerals evolve in environments which have high iron contents, and that iron will oxidize and flow, in combination with groundwater, into fractures in the surrounding minerals, leaving small deposits."

Considering the inclusion is surface breaching, does it make it more likely it's fracture filled? As in, is that is where they fracture filled it from?

 

[chrono]

Oxide stains will be brown, not iridescent.

 

[LoversKites]

Oxide stains will be brown, not iridescent.

Ok, I see. I will have another look at it but there was definitely iridescence. Thanks!

I'd love more opinions.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi, my favorite young person,

It certainly looks like a tsavorite. Here is an experience of mine,(several) and then I hope you don't feel at all badly.

In times past, I too, bought from some Thai vendors from Ebay. I was into rubies. I bought many at ridiculous prices, with seller assurances that they were only heat treated. Some were so pretty I took them to a jeweler for his comments. He wanted to buy some from me. And he suggested that I set a hot pink stone, even though it has a surface reaching inclusion, which I didn't see and he did.
I set that stone later, and finally sent two of those rubies to AGL. The smallest came back heat treated, and the larger was glass filled, composite.

I reported on pricescope saying I would throw the rest out as they must be glass filled. Our very pwn LD told me not to do that, so I kept them. Kitelovers, the prices for glass filled rubies have also increased, and mine are very good looking.

Before I took these to a jeweler, I gave one as a gift in a ring. It appraised out for over one thousand dollars. Funny, the recipient ran to the appraiser the day after I gave it to her.

Your Tsav looks real to me. Take it to a jeweler, don't tell him what you paid or where you bought it. Say it was a gift. Ask him your questions. My question would be: if it is glass filled why didn't it fill the surface crack? ?
The stone looks nice. Enjoy it.

Annette

 

[Marlow]

Oxide stains will be brown, not iridescent.

YES!

Maybe just air???

 

[chrono]

Fracture filling is only done on stones with surface breaching inclusions. Some are well done and some are only partially filled.

 

[LoversKites]

Hi, my favorite young person,

It certainly looks like a tsavorite. Here is an experience of mine,(several) and then I hope you don't feel at all badly.

In times past, I too, bought from some Thai vendors from Ebay. I was into rubies. I bought many at ridiculous prices, with seller assurances that they were only heat treated. Some were so pretty I took them to a jeweler for his comments. He wanted to buy some from me. And he suggested that I set a hot pink stone, even though it has a surface reaching inclusion, which I didn't see and he did.
I set that stone later, and finally sent two of those rubies to AGL. The smallest came back heat treated, and the larger was glass filled, composite.

I reported on pricescope saying I would throw the rest out as they must be glass filled. Our very pwn LD told me not to do that, so I kept them. Kitelovers, the prices for glass filled rubies have also increased, and mine are very good looking.

Before I took these to a jeweler, I gave one as a gift in a ring. It appraised out for over one thousand dollars. Funny, the recipient ran to the appraiser the day after I gave it to her.

Your Tsav looks real to me. Take it to a jeweler, don't tell him what you paid or where you bought it. Say it was a gift. Ask him your questions. My question would be: if it is glass filled why didn't it fill the surface crack? ?
The stone looks nice. Enjoy it.

Annette

Hi Annette! Thanks for your thoughts. Well, I'll show this post to my friend who bought it (yes, it really was a friend, not me. He has an account here but only posted a few times). If, as Chrono said, only it's clarity and stability were affected and the colour is natural (need to clarify this), I don't think he will care much. If he does, I'll offer him to trade one of my gems for it, because I still really love the colour and cool looking iridescent inclusion.

I mean, of course anyone would prefer untreated, but who really cares when it comes to inexpensive learner stones, am I right? Better than messing up a big purchase.

The idea of going to a jeweler and asking questions is, um, really intimidating Maybe he and I will go together, if we have the guts. Thanks again for commenting, and just so you know, I don't feel badly at all. If anything it's a great lesson that even gems that are not so commonly treated can still absolutely be treated.

 

[Marlow]

I bought a tsavo from a Thai Ebay vendor - was a chrome diopside!! 10 Dollar - didn't return it...

A ....glass filled Tsavorite???? Which temperature??? Never heart of!!

The worst case if you "cook" rubies are garnets - they melt and stick together with the rubies...

I can imagine that they use Excel or something like this - then it could happen that you see flash effects.

 

[chrono]

Marlow,
Fracture filling of garnet started several years ago. Checkout you know where (the other forum). If you know Jamie Swisher, that's another source to find out more about this treatment. I need to double check the temperature of glass filling versus garnet.

 

[LoversKites]

Oxide stains will be brown, not iridescent.

YES!

Maybe just air???

Is what just air?

Are you absolutely sure you are seeing an iridescent inclusion? If so, then I highly suspect that it has been (lead glass) fracture filled to improve both the clarity and stability of the garnet.

To clarify, at any possibility that it's fracture filled, it only affects clarity and stability, meaning the colour is natural? I honestly thought fracture filling affects colour, at least in corundum.

 

[LoversKites]

I will get a clear photo of the iridescence, hopefully tomorrow.

 

[chrono]

The effect you see could also just be the way light bends when passing through slits/fractures.
http://www.bwsmigel.info/lesson6/de.optical.phenomena.html

Depending on what is used as the filler, sometimes it improves colour and sometimes it does not.

 

[Marlow]

Marlow,
Fracture filling of garnet started several years ago. Checkout you know where (the other forum). If you know Jamie Swisher, that's another source to find out more about this treatment. I need to double check the temperature of glass filling versus garnet.

Thank you for these informations...

Ah you edit - yes - glass filling - you need a flux and a higher temperature... will try to find out what is possible.

 

[LoversKites]

Marlow,
Fracture filling of garnet started several years ago. Checkout you know where (the other forum). If you know Jamie Swisher, that's another source to find out more about this treatment. I need to double check the temperature of glass filling versus garnet.

Thank you for these informations...

Ah you edit - yes - glass filling - you need a flux and a higher temperature... will try to find out what is possible.

Please post what you find out here, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[LoversKites]

The effect you see could also just be the way light bends when passing through slits/fractures.
http://www.bwsmigel.info/lesson6/de.optical.phenomena.html

Depending on what is used as the filler, sometimes it improves colour and sometimes it does not.

Hmm, nice link. I'm reading it now. It's probably less likely that that's the reason. I'll ask the vendor as well -- may as well.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

If you call the jeweler beforehand and ask him/or her if you could bring in a stone to ask him about you won't feel so intimidated. He may not mind or he may say it will cost you xx amount. It has been my experience that older people like younger , more serious minded younger people. Give them your best smile and tell them you have been studying gemology. Thats how I began. The first fellow was so helpful, that I lost my feelings of insecurity around the jewelry shops.

I think the stone is natural.

Annette

 

[Marlow]

Chrono, I found it

They use fracture filling ( Opticon) for hessonite ( why?)

I would understand filling mandarin and Tsavos.

Unfortunately the Ted Themelis link is death.

LoversKites - put it in some acetone.....

 

[chrono]

http://www.gia.edu/gem-treatment
Other materials – Resins and glasses can potentially be used on any durable gem with surface-reaching fractures, including quartz, aquamarine, topaz, tourmaline and other transparent gems. This kind of treatment is, however, less prevalent than the other treatment processes mentioned above.

Still seeing what I can find out about the melt temperature of glass vs garnet.

ETA
GIA Gemstone-Enhancement-and-its-Detection-in-the-2000S paper states that lead glass fillers are durable up to 600 C.

 

[chrono]

Chrono, I found it
They use fracture filling ( Opticon) for hessonite ( why?)
I would understand filling mandarin and Tsavos.
Unfortunately the Ted Themelis link is death.
LoversKites - put it in some acetone.....

I don't know why either. Hessonite does not sell for $$$ in the first place. Maybe they are testing it on hessonite first then moving on to the more expensive garnet varieties?

 

[LoversKites]

put it in some acetone.....

Wouldn't that ruin the treatment resulting in a messed up looking gem? I'll tell him he can do that though to be sure.

Yeah, it seems odd to treat inexpensive garnets.

 

[LoversKites]

Hi,

If you call the jeweler beforehand and ask him/or her if you could bring in a stone to ask him about you won't feel so intimidated. He may not mind or he may say it will cost you xx amount. It has been my experience that older people like younger , more serious minded younger people. Give them your best smile and tell them you have been studying gemology. Thats how I began. The first fellow was so helpful, that I lost my feelings of insecurity around the jewelry shops.

I think the stone is natural.

Annette

I'll ask him if he wants to, and then if he doesn't I'll MAYBE try alone

 

[smitcompton]

hi,


One more comment. Jamie swisher is banned on PS. Chrono is one of my favorite people, but here I must disagree. Please stay away from Jamie. He sees treatment everywhere. He was proclaiming treatment on Tsav almost 10 yrs ago. It was non existant then.
He is a zealot on treatment, even when there is none. He has also been banned on Ebay. And is a destructive person, rather than constructive. He rants all the time.


Annette

 

[lilmosun]

Hi,

If you call the jeweler beforehand and ask him/or her if you could bring in a stone to ask him about you won't feel so intimidated. He may not mind or he may say it will cost you xx amount. It has been my experience that older people like younger , more serious minded younger people. Give them your best smile and tell them you have been studying gemology. Thats how I began. The first fellow was so helpful, that I lost my feelings of insecurity around the jewelry shops.

I think the stone is natural.

Annette

Probably doesn't need to be stated but make sure the jeweler is a certified gemologist familiar with CS. I trust my jeweler for his bench and low markups but he is old school and not up to date on latest treatments, etc..

 

[LoversKites]

Hi,

If you call the jeweler beforehand and ask him/or her if you could bring in a stone to ask him about you won't feel so intimidated. He may not mind or he may say it will cost you xx amount. It has been my experience that older people like younger , more serious minded younger people. Give them your best smile and tell them you have been studying gemology. Thats how I began. The first fellow was so helpful, that I lost my feelings of insecurity around the jewelry shops.

I think the stone is natural.

Annette

Probably doesn't need to be stated but make sure the jeweler is a certified gemologist familiar with CS. I trust my jeweler for his bench and low markups but he is old school and not up to date on latest treatments, etc..

Yeah, thanks for the good advice.

 

[LoversKites]

Ok I have some photos. It was hard to photograph and only showed up from a few angles on camera. Interestingly, it showed iridescence more easily with some obstruction, like fingers, rather than on a surface, where it was weak a and hard to spot.

 

[LoversKites]

Obstruction vs no obstruction. It looks very faint in the obstruction photo, but was more apparent IRL. Still, the point is that without obstruction iridescence was much weaker, if there at all.