New Here--so frustrated

[always.waiting]

Hello I''m new here and here is my story. My bf and I have been together almost 3 yrs. I''m in early 30''s, he''s in late 30''s, both never married (although he was engaged 6 years ago, mutually ended).
I brought up marriage 6 mo''s ago (specifically asked if we were on same page, spelled out my hopes). From then on, I have brouhgt it up about every month, each time getting more specific and anxious. Each time my bf has said encouraging things. He is not good with talks, but always said we were on same page, he is not as marriage minded but understood where I was coming from and that I had "nothing to worry about", he saw us "together in the future".
We also have been living together almost a year. As our 3rd year anniversary approaches I am more anxious than ever. I have had ALL the talks, he has said all the right things, but yet I wait. It is killing my self esteem, I feel like this is an impossible task, but yet it''s so easy for others. I can read in my friends'' expressions that they don''t know how I can handle waiting and wonder why my bf is not taking the next step. Sometimes I email my friends to say "hi" and they say they are so surprised there is still no news.
Last wkend I broke down, and let it all out. I said this was tearing me apart, I can''t stand the stagnancy, I need to KNOW if this is going forward and the timeline. Here I am 3 yrs into it, we act like a married couple in every aspect and I''m not even engaged. It hurts me so much that he was previously engaged and it took only 2 years. I feel there is something wrong with me. He told me he feels pushed, that he KNOWS everything I''ve said, and I''ve said it many times. He said he''s aware but can''t say anything more. Remember this is after 3 yrs and me being very easy going up till a few months ago. This drives me insane. Finally he said "when is your timeline". I said after 3 yr mark (3wks away), Ican''t justfiy this anymore. He said ok, "that''s the make or break point then". Since then we go about our routine which is FULL of errands (I can''t imagine how he would have any time to plan/ring shop if he even planned on it).
He mentioned he made reservations for this Saturday, and my heart leapt. I imagined the scenario all day. Came home, asked if I should bring something nice for the wkend, he said "no, we''re just going somewhere casual. I made reservations b/c its a popular seafood shack." My heart sunk. Once again, I''ve let myself hope, and it''s just empty.
Now I''m in a horrible spot, why would he say "make or break" and let me live these 3 wks as if all is normal. I''ve looked at sublets,short term apts, b/c I gotta prepare for the worst.
So that''s my story, I know many of you are much closer to the ring than me, so maybe I''m in the wrong forum, but I feel like I''ll take support from wherever I can!! Thank u for listening.

 

[sumbride]

I think this is the right spot for you.

You''ve told him how you feel, he gets it, but he''s just not moving fast enough... but since you gave him an ultimatum, you have to be ready to act on it. Looking at housing is good. He may just surprise you this weekend even if you don''t think he could possibly have done it... many of us have that tale to tell. There''s also the other side where he thinks you''re not serious about it... I hope he doesn''t think that because it sounds like you are.

Your emotions are real and valid, and not that unusual around here! You need to get what you want out of this relationship! But you also need to give him a chance to catch up a bit, give him the benefit of the doubt on the weekend, and the timeline, and trust him. That''s what my FI told me over and over again when I was upset... "You just have to trust me." I did, and he was true to his word. His timeline was different than I wanted it to be, but in the end it was right.

hang in there!

 

[always.waiting]

Thank you for your response, it means so much to have people relate. I feel very alone in my anxiety sometimes. I am an intelligent, well educated career woman, but this is bringing the worst insecurities and anxieties out in me.
I read through several threads on this site today (first day I discovered it), and it''s amazing how similar the stories are. When you''re in it though, it''s hard to see if you''ll be one of the girls who says "we''re engaged!!" one day, ore one of the heartbroken ones. I''ve heard the theory that guys drag their feet b/c they want it to be something grandiose. Well I also asked my bf (in my breakdown phase) if he had at LEAST made some plans. He said, "what is there to plan? Isn''t it just a date you choose, a decision." I give up. So he is not planning something romantic, just is plain dragging it out and inconsiderate of what it is doing to me. Anyway, I look forward to contributing to this forum. Not sure if anyone has read this article, it describes what many of us are/were going through. Unfortunately, doesn''t end in engagement:

http://www.aish.com/dating/wisdom/In_Dating_Limbo.asp

 

[robbie3982]

Hi Always

! Welcome to Pricescope!

I'm sorry you're going through a rough time right now, but we're all here for you. Lots of PSers have been through similiar situations. You never know, maybe he's trying to throw you off and he really is planning something.

ETA: Maybe your bf is doubting himself because his last engagement didn't work out. That could be a hard thing to get over.

 

[RoseAngel04]

Welcome to PS Always!!

So when he said "make or break point" I''m assuming you said yes or that he assumed that''s what you meant?! Did the convo just end right then and there or did he give you hope that in 3 weeks it won''t be "the break" point?!

You never know, he could be being very sneaky and trying to throw you off! (HUGS)

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Awww, that article made me cry. I know the feeling of trying to read and analyze all the "hold ups" well. Good luck in the limbo of waiting for what you know you want. Oh, I feel for you, girl.

 

[ivanadiamond]

Oh Always.Waiting, my heart goes out to you as this is a subject that is near and dear to me. You are not alone. In fact as you have already found, Pricescope has dedicated a whole forum just for ladies in waiting.

My now husband took 4 years to propose and there were some rough patches because of it. Before we moved in together I made it clear that I did not want to be a live in girlfriend and he promised me that he would propose within 6 months, 6 months turned into 1 1/2 years and it took it''s toll on me and our relationship. I would have talks, breakdowns, shouting fits and rage, you name it, I felt it- Each time he would be very encouraging, say all the right things, promise it was in the imminent future and sure enough he would (in my mind) disappoint.

Then their were the holidays, anniversaries, special occasions, or let''s be honest here, every Saturday night, where I would hope that this would be the time he would propose. But the occasions came, but the proposal did not and it would break my heart and also damage our relationship. I began to resent my then BF. Only creating an environment and becoming a person that I wouldn''t want to marry, but I also was tired of living with someone and giving them all the benefits of a wife without a commitment.

Sometimes I wonder how we survived it, we went through some dark times where I didn''t think I could love him with all my heart, it felt like it had hardened.

In my now husbands case, he was still in law school and wanted to finish his degree prior to proposing, the problem was in order to avoid conflict, he would give me these dates (by Christmas, by Valentine''s Day, by our Anniversary) and never stuck to them. So every time I would get so excited and filled with glee only for complete devastation, that is when the resentment set in.

I saw others around me get married and I felt like I was years behind where I wanted to be in life. When he finally did propose, I was so happy, but then came my doubt, I think because I had been so hurt, I wondered if life would always be like this, me wanting the next step before him and it causing problems in our relationship, but time does heal all wounds and if you are with the man you are meant to be with it will work itself out.

The only advise I would have for you would be to give yourself a timeline, not for him to know but for you and if that time comes and goes then move out, start dating, or move on. I know it is easier said than done, but if you make empty threats and don''t follow through, then you are disrespecting yourself.

You are not alone, this happens to so so many woman, be kind to yourself and don''t berate yourself. It will happen. I am glad that I stuck it out, I have the most incredible husband, that just needed to take care of thing for himself before being able to get married. I have to respect him that he didn''t propose because I pressured him or I wanted it, but rather when he was sure and ready in his heart. I know for sure that he proposed because he wanted to and not because of me pressuring him and those feelings of saddness are long gone.

Sorry for all my rambling, just know that so many women understand your plight and it this too shall pass!

 

[caligal]

AlwaysWaiting- Big hugs girlfriend, and welcome to our club.

Your story mirrors most of our experiences- but I will say you must find what works for you. I have one thought- since you brought this up 6 months ago, my guess is that you were letting this "stew" inside you for my longer until it bubbled out! You were probably VERY ready 6 months ago for this to happen, while for him... he''s just starting to think you are in the process of starting the engagement stuff. Remember, it may SEEM easy for others- but you don''t live in their shoes! Many, many, many brides have been through the pre-engagement, "I can''t believe I have to ask him about a timeline- why doesn''t he just get down on a knee and propose," experience. Most women I have talked to have managed, coaxed, sped up the "boy time" process of engagement. It most likely says nothing about the quality of your relationship or how much he loves you... he''s just a guy!

Have you chatted a lot of details about engagement? Does he know what you like in a ring? Does it matter to you? If it does, you''ll need to extend that deadline. Communicate with him. If 3 weeks is really your timeline, does he know this is a "come hell or high water you are done?" Maybe he''s a quick shopper? If you really want some input on the ring or wonder if his shopping style, may not match what you had envisioned for a ring.... extend the deadline. I totally agree a deadline is needed though! Talk,think the best that he''s going to do it, and hold him to the original or revised deadline.

I hear ya on the emotional piece- we''ve had some great threads on this topic- ALSO completely normal! Hugs girly- hope some of this helps. We are here for ya and with ya!

 

[always.waiting]

Thanks to all of you who for all yor posts, it''s reassuring to know I am far from alone. But it is a very difficult phase. Inside I''m going through so many emotions (thinking about what to do if it doesn''t come about in 3kws, ie how to leave, looking for signs he''s preparing, and all the while trying to maintain some normal composure in my relationship, but not TOO much so that he gets comfortable and forgets).

To answer some ques: when he said "make or break" by Labor Day, I just said "ok, it makes me sad that it came to setting a deadline, but yes, that makes sense." No we didn''t discuss it more and no he didnt'' say anything hopeful to make me feel where he was leaning. I did say at the end "if ANYThing comes up that you want to talk about, don''t feel you have to wait though, please let me know." He said he doesn''t have anything or else he already would have said something.

So I feel very much in a lurch. I''m scared at the prospect that things might unravel, and think it''s unfairr of him to let me feel so exposed and vulnerable without a lifeline except time. I can only guess that he just doesn''t get it. Although I''ve said it so many times (and let myself cry and tell him it was hurting me so he''d REALIZE), I gather from his body language that he just forgets about it and time continues to pass. Honestly, I feel that labor day will come and go and I''ll have tor bring it up and then I''m in a horrible position b/c I''ll lose credibilty if I don''t leave. And while I hope he is tricking me this whole time, he is not the type to be spontaneous, romantic, or enjoy suprising me.

This last wkend, he made reservations somewhere, but it turned out it was just to thank me for putting up with a couple of hard weeks (we''ve also just moved to a new apt he bought, a lot of contractor work, painting, been v. tough living conditions..honestly, I wanted to be engaged bfore this move which is why it came up 6 mo''s prior..made sense to me at least!). I tried to ask him what our plans were the next few wkends to see if there were hints of something coming and even said I might visit a friend one wkend. He was ok with that and really seemed his usual old self who doesn''t care to plan ahead. This all doesn''t bode well for me. I''m really having a hard time not raising it ALL over again and saying "WHY are you doing this to me, have you already forgotten the make or break convo, do you know what it''s doing to me to think it could be a break and HOW am I supposed to live like this??" BUt I hold it in...

So that''s where I stand this week ladies, thanks for all your support.

 

[always.waiting]

to answer cali girl''s ques, no we haven''t talked about specifics of engagment, i guess i always felt that was all up to the guy (i like tradition). Honestly (and I know this is the wrong site for me to say this!!), I don''t care much about what the ring looks like, I just want to be engaged, the ring will just be symbolic to me.

and to "ivanadiamond", wow I can''t believe how simliar our stories are (except who know if I''ll be married). I hear ya on the timeline thing, and labor day WAS it for me. It makes me upset that he''s pushed it this far, but here we are. I know I have to leave to save my dignity if he doesn''t propose by then, but it''s so daunting. We live together and I don''t know where to go. I''m 34 and been with him 3yrs. Plus in your case, if you''d left after 6 mo''s, maybe you guys would never have married. it''s so hard to know what to do. i just don''t get why guys do this to us if they really care about us.

 

[firebirdgold]

None of us understand why men do this to us, and men (yes all of them) absolutely fail to grasp why their actions cause us so much pain. Sometimes we just have to accept that it''s totally impossible to understand the other gender, and that sometimes it''s also impossible to properly communicate with them. I''ve learned that you can''t always guarantee that what you say is what the other person hears.

Most of the engaged women here have been through a period of agonizing pre-engagement. In my case it took 14 months for my fi and I to get engaged. I had more than a few meltdowns along the way, too. He never did understand because in his mind he was saving for the ring and waiting to finish his Ph.D. (5 years younger than me, I''m 34), so he was thinking about our engagement and doing something. But he never explained himself to me properly, and since I saw no movement whatsoever I would have panic attacks thinking he had doubts, was changing his mind, I wasn''t good enough, I had too many flaws for him to live with, or that it (read: I) just wasn''t that important to him.

My story had a happy ending. My ''can''t plan ahead to save my life'' guy actually had a plan and was waiting for my birthday. (some sort of male competition with his future bil: ''see I managed to wait and you broke days before!''

) We got engaged this july, and we''re excitedly planning the wedding. ... ok, I''m excited about planning the wedding, he''s excited about actually being married.

The reason I didn''t respond to your post earlier is that I''m reluctant to post negative replies to new PSers. When I had my meltdowns, my fi reassured me. He told me he loved me and that he was really looking forward to getting married, that he had no doubts, and that I should trust him.
It doesn''t sound like your bf is doing that. ''Seeing us together in the future'' is not the same thing as I''m looking forward to being married. Now it could just be a matter of gender miscommunication... but I really don''t like the make or break comment. A guy who really wants to marry you shouldn''t even be thinking like that.

Basically I''m just not getting a good vibe from your posts. Now there aren''t as many red flags in yours as there have been in some others that have ended up badly, so I won''t say ''run, run now'' but I will say that you should be prepared to move out when the three weeks are up, just in case.


There is still hope. Men get very weird and very closed-mouthed about this whole thing. He could surprise you yet with a beautiful ring and proposal. (or just shove the ring at you which has happened to some happily married PSers, can you say future upgrade?) My incredibly honest guy lied through his teeth to me on this subject. I don''t know why they feel genetically compelled to make it a surprise, but they do. Both genders get equally insane during the pre-engagement process, it''s just unfortunate that the two different responses are so at odds with each other.

In essence, my advice is to have a little faith ... and a list of possible apartments. If he comes through that''s wonderful, if he doesn''t just don''t say anything and simply be gone one day when he gets home from work.

I''m sorry I couldn''t be more positive. Good luck!

btw, that article is fabulous and should be mandatory reading for the bf''s of all of our LIW''s!!

 

[always.waiting]

thank u for your feedback, but i just want to go home and cry now. obviously he doesn''t care about me enough to want to put me out of my misery and his wording when i am literally begging for a sign of hope is not helping. (3 wks will be "make or break."). i don''t know how to take this anymore!

 

[bee*]

I dont have any real advice for you but just mailing to let you know that Im thinking of you. I hope that he does have something planned and that he surprises you but if not I really feel that you have to be strong and move on with your life. It just seems really strange that you will be make or break in 3 wks and he can go about his normal daily things without mentioning it. I hope that it works out for you

 

[MissCongeniality]

Oh I feel for you. Many of us have been where you are...and we all can sympathize.

I will be thinking about you...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am truly so sorry you are going through this. It is heartbreaking. But I want to tell you and others what I tell my college age daughter. The pattern I see is that once the girl moves in with the BF, then HE has everything he wants. He has zero incentive to think about engagement. It is more often the woman who really desires the formal commitment of engagement and marriage to signify a life long commitment. If the GF is not physically there all the time meeting his every need, I feel like he has a little more incentive to want her to be with him. And if she says she won''t move in without a formal commitment (either engaagement with a wedding date set or the wedding itself), then I feel it is more likely to see him develop a plan to make that happen, or if he''s not really committed to the relationship, then better to find out sooner than later.

I think if you do follow through and move out, then you''ll find out whether he can live without you or not. He''ll have a ring soon after if he wants to be with you. And I really hope it works out for YOUR good!

 

[jsc44]

I can totally understand, although I have only been dating my b/f a bit over a year. I am 28, he is 29, but we are both months away from 29, 30 respectively. In June his 25 year old brother proposed to his 23 year old girlfriend! I freaked! We had to fly from Chicago to DC to be there and I had to pretend I was happy. It was absolute torture. One night I lost it. I told him it was embarassing that his baby brother had the balls to propose before he did (albeit to a 23 year old!!) -- no offense to anyone who is 23-- It was just that I was 5+ years older. We have fought, but he always says he is ready to do marry me. He is looking at rings, etc.

I am going to be honest with you and not sugar coat the situation. However, I am not going to be a pessimist either. SO read the following with an open-mind:

1. I think that a 3 week ultimatum is too short and unfair to him. Finding a quality ring takes more than 3 weeks.
2. However, I think you had so much pent up anger and frustration that you let it out. I think you need to have one LAST serious talk with him. Lengthen the 3 week ultimatum period. Don''t tell him how long though. Keep that to yourself. Tell him you would prefer to be engaged by Labor day. I say give it 3 months and then you pack and you leave. If he really can''t live without you he will get his act together and propose. Also, you taking that 3 week ultimatum off of him (although he does not deserve it

) will most likely make him feel more at ease and not pressured. Men do not like to be pressured. They like to do things on their time frame and we are left waiting around. However, you will not sit and wait around. Plan on moving out in 3 months (secretly plan this). Give him an idea in your talk that were rash w/ the 3 weeks, but in a few months you are done. Tell him you are smart, beautiful and there are a million other men who would jump at the opportunity to be with you...and he should feel lucky you have stood by him for so long. With the same breath, tell him you feel lucky to have him or he will get defensive...

and you never know, he might just come through in 3 weeks!! This process is awful. It is supposed to be the most wonderful event and the men ruin it by playing games and thinking they have all the time in the world.
I am moving in w/ my b/f this weekend. He knows that I had a rule that I would never move in with someone until I was engaged...and he can''t just propose knowing how happy it would make me. I have set out a time frame that he does not know about.. if by December he has not proposed, I am done. Hopefully it won''t come to that point b/c we have ring shopped and he has promised me otherwise...but if he does not do it, I am too old to waste my time w/ someone who is not dying to marry me. I always envisioned being with someone who was so madly in love with me, that he could not wait to propose. Men can be pigs regarding engagements b/c it is 100% on their time frame.. not fair, but it is life. All we can do is wait for a reasonable period and if they are not serious, we have to leave no matter how much we love them...
Sorry for the unsolicited advice. you can totally disregard it if you don''t agree. I just thought all the advice you get from as many people as possible will help you come to YOUR own final decision. Keep everyone updated and stay strong!

 

[Allisonfaye]

My story is also very similar to yours....only I was much older and so that made it worse because I knew I wanted children. I knew if I broke up with my then BF, that was pretty much it and I would never get any children because I was 38.

My now DH and I had been dating just over a year when HE first brought it up. But it was after three weeks where he was very distant. He finally told me that his ex GF had moved back to town and she wanted to see him. He had been thinking of proposing to me but he wasn''t sure if he should see her first to be sure. I said go ahead. I think that threw him off. I said do you expect ME to date you at the same time? He said he understood if I didn''t want to. Then he changed his mind and didn''t see her. He said he wanted to talk about getting engaged. Then he changed his mind again. He wanted to wait. Arrrrrgghhhh!

So every so often, I would ask him what his thoughts were. He would says things like "by the end of the year''...so I would keep waiting. But I too got upset at every gift giving occasion when presented with a non-Ering piece of jewelry. It got to a point where if we didn''t get engaged soon, we would have to wait a almost a year more to get married since the warm weather in Chicago is pretty short. So I told him that and he said, we can go ring shopping. But it was never the way I dreamed and to tell you the truth, in spite of the fact that we ended up happily married, it is still a painful chapter in one respect.

I also refused to do the living together thing. I didn''t want it to drag on and on if it didn''t work out.

Here is what I would do if I were you. (This plan assumes that you absolutely WILL NOT stay if you are not married). Let the deadline pass. Let Christmas pass. Let New Year''s pass. If no ring, find a new place to live. Tell him that you gave him longer than your agreed upon deadline and he seems to have no incentive to get married. MOVE. See what happens BUT live your life as if you are NOT going to be together.

Between now and the first of the year, you should try your absolute BEST to focus on anything else that you enjoy. I TOTALLY understand how hard this is.

Also, think about how much fun you could have being single again. Try to psyche yourself up to look forward to it. Think about all the things you used to do when you were single that you can''t or don''t do that you can do again.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Maria D]

Date: 8/17/2006 10:09:20 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
The pattern I see is that once the girl moves in with the BF, then HE has everything he wants. He has zero incentive to think about engagement. It is more often the woman who really desires the formal commitment of engagement and marriage to signify a life long commitment.

Thank-you diamondseeker, that''s the pattern I see as well. My own daughter is only 12 but I''m going to remember your post when she becomes college-aged!

For those here that live together before getting engaged, I wonder what went on with the decision to live together. Did the guy ask the woman or was it a decision you came to mutually? I''m thinking that it was probably a mutual decision and not a proposal to live together. If you mutually decided to live together, you can mutually decide whether or not to get married. A woman who is already living as a wife doesn''t have to wait around for a guy to "propose." What''s wrong with coming right out and asking -- do you want this set-up we have here to be a permanent commitment or not? If the guy says he''s not sure yet then it''s up to the woman to decide if she wants to continue living as a wife without being one -- without even being a fiancee for that matter.

Always.waiting, if I were in your situation I would be putting a deposit on an apartment and packing up to move out. If your guy wants to get married you can break the lease. If he doesn''t want to get married (yet or ever) you''ll be one step closer to meeting a guy who deserves you. Good luck, I wish you all the best.

 

[always.waiting]

Thanks for the responses/feedback. In response to some of the ladies who pointed out that by moving in with my bf, maybe I contributed to this situation, let me explain my perspective. I am traditional by today''s standards, and would have MUCH preferred to be engaged / married before living with a man. But in today''s society, it is very common for people to live together first. Maybe it''s the times, maybe it''s a response to the skyrocketing divorce rates, but in any case it is the norm. I also live in a large city (NYC), where it''s even more the norm. My boyfriend made it clear to me that he thought it was vital that we live together before the next stage (engagement). It was very important to him b/c he had lived with someone prior and she turned out to be chemically imbalanced, and it was a painful breakup -- but one he is thankful for b/c if they had married and had kids, well you can imagine.
So I reluctantly agreed, but made it clear that I did not want this to be dragged out and to be strung along. I wanted it to be a short period so he could allieve whatever fears he had and I would be patient. A few months into it, he told me he had no concerns and that he saw us moving forward. My point being, it''s not always the case of the girl catering to the guy and not thinking things out. Sometimes you set the bounderies and the guy grays them so he can go at his own pace.
As to the other posters who recommended I give a timeline or extend my short timeline and in my own head stick to longer term one--that is what I did 6 mo''s ago. This is why I''m at my wits end. What do you do when your deadline arrives and you never thought it would? I feel like I have to move out or else I lose my dignity. I gave him that 3 wk mark b/c he tried to dig out my "internal final timeline". He didn''t seem phased by it, he just said OK. Honestly I don''t think he''s surprised b/c of the fact that we''ve discussed this for months now.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the feedback. I''m sorry to rain down on all the other posters who are joyful about recent engagements and rings (which is why sometimes I wonder if I''m in the wrong forum). It is a very painful stage to be going through, and mostly I''m just at a loss as to how I got to this point and why my bf is frozen in inaction. To me it''s clear: if you are not ready, TELL me and I''ll make my move. If you are, PROPOSE. Instead I get encouraging signs, promises, plans towards the future and hopeful signs, but NO action, and round we go. I set deadlines for him, deadlines for me, and it''s all so brutally difficult to get through. Especially since I know he wants what I want, which is to build a life together. And that''s where he just falls into a male stupor and illogical state of indesicion based on things I cannot understand and he is incapable of explaining. I am also 34, so like the previous poster, I am unlikely to have children if this relationship fails. I''ve never put extra pressure on him b/c of this, but it''s a fact. And finally, I looked at his most recent credit card statement (which was not hidden as they never are) and there is no major activity. So I''m quite sure it''s not coming. Sorry for the book, but this is becoming the best way for me to deal with my growing neurosis over this! Thanks and I''ll try to keep you posted.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 8/17/2006 5:10:22 PM
Author: Maria D

Date: 8/17/2006 10:09:20 AM

Author: diamondseeker2006

The pattern I see is that once the girl moves in with the BF, then HE has everything he wants. He has zero incentive to think about engagement. It is more often the woman who really desires the formal commitment of engagement and marriage to signify a life long commitment.

Thank-you diamondseeker, that's the pattern I see as well. My own daughter is only 12 but I'm going to remember your post when she becomes college-aged!


For those here that live together before getting engaged, I wonder what went on with the decision to live together. Did the guy ask the woman or was it a decision you came to mutually? I'm thinking that it was probably a mutual decision and not a proposal to live together. If you mutually decided to live together, you can mutually decide whether or not to get married. A woman who is already living as a wife doesn't have to wait around for a guy to 'propose.' What's wrong with coming right out and asking -- do you want this set-up we have here to be a permanent commitment or not? If the guy says he's not sure yet then it's up to the woman to decide if she wants to continue living as a wife without being one -- without even being a fiancee for that matter.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this. I personally do not feel comfortable with the idea of marrying a man who hasn't been with me through the realities of living together. This might be TMI, but if I don't feel comfortable with him knowing I'm in the bathroom suffering through the results of the buffalo wings the night before, I don't think I should be marrying him. My housemate herself has said that she doesn't believe in marrying someone she wouldn't feel comfortable with, um, 'passing wind' in front of. These kind of issues come up fast when you live together, but possibly never if you don't.

I really feel like the 'happily ever after' fairytale is still alive and well (thanks in part to movies?), leading young women to believe that everything will be all happy and peachy after the honeymoon is over, and then the fights over dishes and laundry and the toilet seat being up start. It appears to be a shock. When the 'dating face' comes off, guards are let down, and they stop 'being on their best behaviour', reality comes crashing down and things can get ugly. I've seen it happen, and I feel badly for those who aren't prepared for the realities of cohabitation.

I am sure that it can work for people, but it just hasn't been my experience. Partly it is also that I personally don't feel that weddings make a marriage, I feel that weddings announce a commitment that is already a reality.

I wonder if it is more that the men in question aren't eager to marry their live-in girlfriends not because they are already 'getting the milk for free' but instead just aren't excited to marry the girl? I've got the book 'He's Just Not That Into You' in mind here.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Someone commented that living together is a sign of the times, and I so agree. That in itself is a MAJOR contributor to the increase of divorce rates. It's been statistically proven, and since I work in social services, I am well aware how statistics can be swayed, so let me add that this is ACROSS the board in statistics, not just in religious based studies. If you don't believe me, check. Stats are widely available online.

I would venture to say that divorce is now seen as more of an option because it's not *such a big deal* anymore. It's commonplace for a couple to live together before marriage, so once you get married, it's not a HUGE life change. It's something people see as *just a paper* or something that makes it all *legal.* Marriage was created before there ever was any legality involved; it was a union between souls, and it was something that didn't break. Come hell or high water, it lasted.

Over time, that's changed. Now people are often worried that they won't be *compatible* in marriage, that they'll argue over this or that, and things won't be peachy keen. Anyone who's ever lived in a family situation knows people annoy you. That's a given. Living together first in NO WAY makes dealing with the conflicts that come up easier. Rather, it just makes the commitment easier to leave, so that a marriage isn't broken.

The thing is, though, that marriage IS more than the paper, it's the heart and soul, the work, the time, the effort, the emotion, the struggles, the laughter, the joy, all of it. So, even if you live together first, and things go downhill and you opt out instead of working through the daily issues of finding a way to get along in a living situation, it's *still* a broken, deep, emotionally laden relationship. It's like a marriage, without the paperwork. The pain is just as deep, in my opinion, because people who live together choose to live as if they're married.

Will Paul and I struggle in marriage? YES!!! He is a chronic piler of stuff; I'm a chronic straightener of stuff. He likes beef; I won't eat it. He likes to eat out; I like to cook at home. He likes scary movies; they give me nightmares. He sleeps late; I'm an early riser. He forgets to use air freshener after he uses the bathroom; that makes me almost sick to my stomach. We have differing style ideas for the interior of our home. He likes to kick his shoes off in the middle of the floor as soon as he comes inside. I like them lined up in the closet. He hates to do the dishes; so do I. The thing is, in marriage, you learn to deal with these things, because they're just little things that don't add up to the joy and enjoyment of sharing life with the love you receive from this person who also has annoying habits. You compromise because you love the other, you learn to do things that don't matter to you, because they matter to the other. I have learned to keep the shaving cream out on the counter for Paul, because he likes it there, even though I'd rather it be under the sink. He's learned to hang the towels until they dry before he puts them in the hamper. We do these things not because they make sense to us, but because the *other* person matters to us. Will we learn more things that annoy us as we live together in marriage? No doubt. Will we learn more reasons why we love one another? No doubt.

When you have a marriage, there is more investment in the relationship. Anyway, I'm not downing people who choose to live together prior to marriage. To each his own, but saying it prepares you for marriage is a falsehood. Rather, it helps a couple to decide if they want to rule out marriage, as many, more than half even, of those who live together prior to marriage never make it to "I do," while they contend when they move in together that it's in preparation for "I do." That alone sort of nullifies the idea that it's prep. for marriage. It's a free *test run.*

 

[anchor31]

I agree with you, fisher. For me there was no question of living together before the engagement for the same reasons as yours. We''ve spent a lot of week-ends at each other''s place and a few weeks; we spent the whole last month together. There was an adjustment at first and we had two fights in the first week, but we talked things through and we''re okay. So yes, even if we don''t live together, he''s seen me "pass gas", get sick, etc. and so have I, and we do believe that we will be happy together in marriage, even if it won''t always be easy. In any case, we decided to move in together next year, one year before the wedding, because we can''t wait to really live together!

 

[fisherofmengirly]

We''re at each other''s house every weekend, too, and we''re *WAY* past the putting forward the best side thing. Anyone still in that phase shouldn''t consider marriage yet. I''m very real with Paul, and he''s the same with me. Some days I like him less than others, but I love him the same, even when I think he''s being a messy jerk.

 

[mia15]

Always.waiting, I''m sorry for your frustrations. It sounds like you''ve made it more than clear that in moving in together, you were looking for a permanent commitment.

Perhaps it''s true that living together, he has less of an incentive to propose. Personally, I''d like to marry someone who longs for greater commitment all on his own.

What bothers me most isn''t the moving in together thing, it''s his asking you for your FINAL deadline, i.e. the point at which you just can''t take it anymore. It''s seems a little too suggestive of asking someone to place themselves in an uncomfortable position, then taking advantage of it, inadvertently or not.

I wish you luck, and hope you''ll think of yourself and try to protect your feelings. Allisonfaye has excellent advice. Sometimes you have to withdraw a little to see someone''s true motives.

 

[Maria D]

For the record, I wasn't trying to make a case for or against living together to test the relationship for marriageability. It's true that it isn't something I would have been comfortable with; I see marriage as a decision to commit. When I made that decision I committed to helping my spouse through "buffalo wing nights" and many worse nights! If some couples can't make that commitment without testing the waters first, fine -- I guess I was just lucky that both my husband and I could.

What I was asking is how the decision to live together is made in the first place and why that process has to be so different than the decision to marry. If two people mutually agree to live together, why is the woman, presumably a modern woman in a modern world, then sitting around waiting for this magic proposal? Why not mutually decide what to do next in the relationship? The pattern I see here (in this forum) is for the couple to live together first because "that's how it's done now" but then the *woman* is all stressed out because the marriage proposal isn't forthcoming.

My point is, why not continue to be a modern woman and just come right and ask the guy what his intentions are? If he's not sure then decide if this is the kind of guy you want to be with. I guess I just find all this consternation about what the guy is thinking to be ridiculous. It's a throwback to an archaic time when women didn't take charge of their own lives. On the one hand the couple is all "this is how things are done now" but on the other the woman is still waiting around for the guy to make this momentous decision about *her* life? Something's wrong with that picture!

I don't think you "messed up" by living together first, always.waiting. You let him know what you wanted and you tried things the way you were both comfortable. But I also do *not* think you messed up now by giving him a deadline. You are both old enough, it's been long enough, it's time for you to have what *you* want. A deadline is exactly what was needed here. If it's going to scare him off it was never meant to be in the first place so you might as well know that sooner than later. You are still young -- if this guy doesn't want what you want I hope you'll cut loose and never look back!

edited to add:
>>1. I think that a 3 week ultimatum is too short and unfair to him. Finding a quality ring takes more than 3 weeks. <<

totally disagree here, you absolutely don't need a ring to propose.

 

[IrishAngel7982]

Always.Waiting~
I am so sorry for your pain! I agree with bits and pieces of what''s already been posted. I am a firm believer that some guys (not all, but some) really have no desire to get married once his girl moves in. I''ve seen it happen numerous times, and it''s very true that once a couple lives together, the guy indeed has *everything* he wants and therefore, why get married? I don''t think you made a mistake by moving in with your boyfriend, especially since you made your desires clearly known, but reading your description of what''s been going on I''m a little worried! I can''t imagine how hurtful it must be to set deadline after deadline only to be blown off and disappointed. My feeling is this: If you do what you''ve always done, you''ll get what you''ve always gotten. IOW, sometimes if one cannot make a change, she can''t assume the big picture will change for the better. I agree that you really need to start looking for a place to stay and if you decide to extend this deadline one more time stick to it and if it passes, leave. It will be so hard for you to do but it may be the only way to know where he really stands. If he loves you and wants to marry you, he''ll get the message. If he doesn''t want to walk down the aisle, you''ll know. It doesn''t sound like you''re consumed with having a ring, just a fiance. He doesn''t need a full 3 weeks to propose. "Will you marry me?" takes about 3 seconds to say. You can always shop for a ring after!

As for the discussion about living together before marriage, I agree with Fisher. I try not to listen to stats all the time but divorce rates are skyrocketing in part to the fact that many couples cohabitate before marriage. As far as wanting to know if you''re compatible 24/7, if you''re not sure about this you shouldn''t take that next step. You do not need to live with someone to understand eating habits, *bathroom* habits, when he/she''s sick, etc. Spending a few weekends together will most likely give you a pretty good idea of these things.

 

[Christa]

Wow Fisher, you and Paul sound just like me and my husband! We are opposite personality types in so many ways, but we were just talking the other day about how much the differences have lessened over the past 16 years . . . and that is what marriage is really about: growing and changing together, not finding that one person who you are perfectly compatible with and who will never annoy you. I think that is one of the reasons why the statistics show that living together leads to less successful marriages: if you go into it with the idea that you're doing a test run to see how you like living together, what do you do when you've been married a couple of years and you don't like it any more?

Anyway, I guess this is a bit off the original topic of this thread, but this subject pushes my buttons a little. Always Waiting, you deserve better than you are getting. Stick to your deadline and you'll find out whether or not you have a guy you can count on for the long haul.

And by the way, at 34 you are a long way from giving up all hope of having kids. And hey, if getting a proposal is this difficult, I can only imagine what getting him to agree to babies will be like!

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 8/17/2006 10:22:28 PM
Author: Maria D
For the record, I wasn''t trying to make a case for or against living together to test the relationship for marriageability. It''s true that it isn''t something I would have been comfortable with; I see marriage as a decision to commit. When I made that decision I committed to helping my spouse through ''buffalo wing nights'' and many worse nights! If some couples can''t make that commitment without testing the waters first, fine -- I guess I was just lucky that both my husband and I could.

What I was asking is how the decision to live together is made in the first place and why that process has to be so different than the decision to marry. If two people mutually agree to live together, why is the woman, presumably a modern woman in a modern world, then sitting around waiting for this magic proposal? Why not mutually decide what to do next in the relationship? The pattern I see here (in this forum) is for the couple to live together first because ''that''s how it''s done now'' but then the *woman* is all stressed out because the marriage proposal isn''t forthcoming.

Maria, I LOVE your post... for one thing, I agree completely that for us, making the decision to get married was also making a decision to be together through thick and thin... the gross times and the good. Sounds sentimental but sometimes it really is that simple, if both people are in agreement and respectful of one another. But for those that DO decide living together before engagement/marriage is the right thing for them, I agree that marriage should then become a mutual decision in the same way the housing arrangement was. Otherwise it is simply not fair to the woman.

As for always.waiting, hindsight is definitely 20-20, and whether or not you would have made the decision to move in together if you could go back in time, is a moot point. I am so sorry for the pain you''re feeling right now... it is very real, and very justified... but I do believe that things work out the way they are supposed to in the end. I think you''re doing the right thing by looking at other housing options... and at the end of these 3 weeks, you may have to prepare yourself to follow through and move out. I would also suggest couples counseling if it comes to that point and your boyfriend is still floundering... it may help with addressing some of his commitment issues and also help him understand your perspective better.

Please keep posting... I know you''re joining us during a streak of engagements right now, but SO many of us have gone through that agony of feeling totally out of control of our own futures. You are not alone... so hang in there!!

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 8/18/2006 1:02:55 AM
Author: Christa
We are opposite personality types in so many ways, but we were just talking the other day about how much the differences have lessened over the past 16 years . . . and that is what marriage is really about: growing and changing together, not finding that one person who you are perfectly compatible with and who will never annoy you. I think that is one of the reasons why the statistics show that living together leads to less successful marriages: if you go into it with the idea that you''re doing a test run to see how you like living together, what do you do when you''ve been married a couple of years and you don''t like it any more?

I really like this point... maybe this all comes down to everyone''s individual definitions of marriage. To me, I am in complete agreement with the "growing and changing together" philosophy. I''ve changed SO much in my 27 years of living so far, that I know there''s no possible way I''m going to be exactly the same person 50 years from now as I am today! So rather than looking for somebody who is compatible with me in a logistical way, I was much more concerned with finding somebody compatible on a more metaphysical level. After that, the logistics just sort of fell into place... and when we realized we were both on the exact same wavelength as to what marriage meant to us, all those quirks that could make us incompatible in a "living together" kind of way (he likes watching Shark Week, I prefer Project Runway), suddenly aren''t quite as significant anymore!

OK I''m stopping my thread-hijack now... sorry always.waiting!!

 

[VRBeauty]

Always.waiting: I''m very sorry to hear about what you''re going through. From what you''ve described it does sound like you''re being strung along, though not necessarily in the sense of your BF being malicious or using you. It may that he''s "just" not ready to commit, and can''t or won''t own up to that. It also sounds like you have a really good head on your shoulders and have thought this through pretty thoroughly. You''ll make it through this OK no matter what happens.

I''m pretty old fashioned -- which in this case means that I have many of the values espoused by the feminists that were shaking things up way back when I was your age. It burns me up more than a little

that there is still such a strong taboo against women proposing. You seem to be the stronger person in this relationship and it might have been more effective for you to propose instead of setting a deadline for his proposal. If nothing else, you would have had an answer by now!

Best wishes in the coming weeks.