New Here--so frustrated

[Larissa]

Alwayswaiting, I''m sorry that you''re so torn up about this. It sounds as though you both put each other in a hard situation. You by not saying what you felt earlier on and him by not realising how important it was to you despite mulitpule conversations.

I have to say, and keep in mind that I fall into the "marriage is a piece of paper category", does the actual engagement/marriage really matter all that much? There''s no reason why you can''t be partners, married or not, and move on with life if you love one another and agree on a similar style of living including money, children, etc. Are you really truly willing to give up the love of your life simply because you want that piece of paper?

I realise that the answer to this is different for everyone and this is your decision alone. I''m not attempting to pick on you, just attempting to understand how marriage is more important especially since it seems as though you''re so emotional over this right now.

 

[always.waiting]

Wow, a lot of feedback to digest! I really appreciate it though, it makes me feel not so alone.
As for the "living together" before engagement/marriage debate, I hear all the naysayers. I even agree with some of them. Particularly on how feminism has ended up hurting women in this area b/c what we''ve ended up with is guys getting to live with "liberated" women, but society still looking down on women who behave like men when it comes to relationships. I am very vocal about my wants, goals. But I stop at the proposal stage--I still believe this is something my bf should be able to take the initiative on.
Also, in my case, I truly believe that I am more likely to get a proposal having lived with my bf than having not. This is just from knowing how my bf is. He lived with a gf in the past (who he proposed to, another touchy spot for me), and it ended mutually b.c. they were just not at all compatible, something that came to the surface more than ever after living together. It wasn''t a question of seeing her with no makeup or being sick, it was seeing some worrying personality traits up close that were easier to "hide" when you aren''t with someone 24/7. Yes, I compromised and lived with him b/c I saw that this was important to him. He very quickly realized he had nothing to worry about and that the traits that came out in both of us after living together brought us much closer.
This leads to why I am so adamant about marriage. Because this is what is important to ME (not so important to him) and I feel it is HIS time to compromise now. It''s true that guys practically have it all by having a live in gf, but it''s not true that he has it all. He does not have 100% of my heart because I''m not able to give myself completely until he makes a complete commitment to me. I am also (increasingly) unhappy in this stagnant stage, and these are things he notice. I think this is actually his #1 incentive to propose, because it is important to me and because it''ll make me feel happy and complete, and legitimized. Which touches on why marriage is important to me and so much more than a piece of paper. To me it is the ultimate form of commitment in society today and precisely b/c it is so difficult for men, makes it an even more valuable sign of his feelings. Society also views a wife much differently than a gf. It adds legal legitimacy as well as personal fulfillment. These are my main reasons. It will liberate me and allow me to think of the future as an "ever after" instead of in incremements of deadlines and weeks and years. Maybe it''s just psychological, but regardless, it means a lot to me for reasons that are deeper than a dress and a ring. For that alone, if he loves me, he should understand. We''ve had this conversation many times and he says he totally understands and if it''s important to me, it''s important to him. Which is what makes this tortuous wait with little signs so hard to understand. I also should point out that before moving in with him, I said I was worried and was taking a huge risk. I told him I was trusting him on this. He looked me in the eye and said I have nothing to worry about and can trust him.
I don''t believe I could do much more. I can only hope he cares enough to do the right thing, but time is really not on my side.
Thanks so much for everyone''s support in the meantime..

 

[Allisonfaye]

AW: I wanted to comment on your response to my earlier post about having children. I was 38 at the time. 34 is a WHOLE different ballgame. You could easily break up with your BF and meet someone else.

Sometimes when you are in a situation and feeling the emotions of it all, it is hard to see the bigger picture.

You could break up with your now bf, meet someone the next day and be married in a year. (I think you should know someone at least a year before getting engaged.)

Hang on to the hope. It can happen.

 

[Larissa]

Date: 8/18/2006 10:05:06 AM
Author: always.waiting
Society also views a wife much differently than a gf.

Yes, society treats the two very differently, which is why I''m very much having trouble in my relationship.

I hope that you are able to make the best decision for you. I also hope that if he decides to marry you that you don''t carry around the resent of this with you for the rest of your relationship.

 

[Christa]

Date: 8/18/2006 10:52:58 AM
Author: Larissa

Yes, society treats the two very differently, which is why I''m very much having trouble in my relationship.

I''m curious about what you mean by that . . . are you married and regretting it, or not married and having a problem because of it?

 

[Larissa]

Date: 8/18/2006 12:42:41 PM
Author: Christa

Date: 8/18/2006 10:52:58 AM

Author: Larissa


Yes, society treats the two very differently, which is why I''m very much having trouble in my relationship.

I''m curious about what you mean by that . . . are you married and regretting it, or not married and having a problem because of it?

Attempting not to hi-jack so I''ll keep it short and sweet. I don''t see the point in marriage, I never have. I''m married and while I can''t really regret it, I don''t like how stupid people seem to become when it comes to marriage and societal expectations.

 

[Christa]

Date: 8/18/2006 12:51:44 PM
Author: Larissa
Attempting not to hi-jack so I''ll keep it short and sweet. I don''t see the point in marriage, I never have. I''m married and while I can''t really regret it, I don''t like how stupid people seem to become when it comes to marriage and societal expectations.

I don''t think it''s a hijack, but then I''m new around here (well, new to posting--I''ve been lurking for close to a year!) . . . I think the whole topic of societal expectations surrounding marriage is totally relevant to AW''s issue.

 

[always.waiting]

Date: 8/18/2006 12:51:44 PM
Author: Larissa

Date: 8/18/2006 12:42:41 PM
Author: Christa

Date: 8/18/2006 10:52:58 AM

Author: Larissa


Yes, society treats the two very differently, which is why I''m very much having trouble in my relationship.

I''m curious about what you mean by that . . . are you married and regretting it, or not married and having a problem because of it?

Attempting not to hi-jack so I''ll keep it short and sweet. I don''t see the point in marriage, I never have. I''m married and while I can''t really regret it, I don''t like how stupid people seem to become when it comes to marriage and societal expectations.

It''s okay to not agree with societal expectations and not live by them (within reason of course). People should never feel pressured to do something they don''t believe in, no matter what the trends say, but in a relationship, there are 2 people, so both points of view have to be looked at with equal validity. I suppose my point is that I care very much about how society views marriage because I happen to be in agreement with those views and not just because they are popular (i went into my reasons in a prior posting--all of which I feel are very vaild and thought out and not shallow).
You are married so it seems that you compromised in order to fulfill something important to your husband. And if it''s just a piece of paper, well then it''s not a big deal to go through with it in order to make your partner happy. I suppose this is the same thing I''m asking for from my bf. Especially since we''ve discussed it ad nauseum, and the longer he stalls, the longer I feel like what''s important to me doesn''t "count" as much. Now if I was saying I want a huge wedding that costs as much $$ as possible in order to keep up with other''s expectiations, then I would agree that that would be stupid.

 

[Allisonfaye]

Date: 8/18/2006 12:51:44 PM
Author: Larissa

Date: 8/18/2006 12:42:41 PM
Author: Christa

Date: 8/18/2006 10:52:58 AM

Author: Larissa


Yes, society treats the two very differently, which is why I''m very much having trouble in my relationship.

I''m curious about what you mean by that . . . are you married and regretting it, or not married and having a problem because of it?

Attempting not to hi-jack so I''ll keep it short and sweet. I don''t see the point in marriage, I never have. I''m married and while I can''t really regret it, I don''t like how stupid people seem to become when it comes to marriage and societal expectations.

I can''t help but wonder how long you have been married, why you married in the first place and how you would feel if your DH didn''t ever want to get married.

I don''t think it is entirely fair to impose your negative view of marriage on AW. It is important to HER and that''s really the point.

(Not that you need defending, AW. )

 

[Christa]

I certainly didn't mean to pick on Larissa with my questions, so I hope it didn't come across that way!

The important thing in picking a life partner is that you're generally on the same wavelength, and if you value marriage you need to look for a partner who values marriage. Dragging him (or her) down the aisle is not going to change his (or her) basic attitude toward marriage, and that attitude is likely to cause problems in the long run. Women especially (I know this because I am one!) often seem to forget that dating is supposed to be about finding out whether this person is the right partner for you, not about trying to make him into the right partner . . . it just doesn't work that way!

And yes, marriage is a piece of paper, and so is a diploma, a birth certificate, a love letter, a driver's license, the Constitution, the deed to your house . . . all are pieces of paper that represent or attest to something important.

 

[Larissa]

Allisonfaye,

I CLEARLY stated in both of my posts that she should do what works for her. I was simply agreeing with her about society treating marrieds and unmarried differently.

"Yes, society treats the two very differently, which is why I''m very much having trouble in my relationship.

I hope that you are able to make the best decision for you. "

"I realise that the answer to this is different for everyone and this is your decision alone. I''m not attempting to pick on you, just attempting to understand how marriage is more important especially since it seems as though you''re so emotional over this right now."

I wasn''t attempting to impose a negative viewpoint, simply asking her if marriage was important enough to leave the love of her life (she said it was) and agreeing that society has different views of people based on martial status. I also stated that it wasn''t my intention to hi-jack her thread. I was very clear that I understood it was important to her. I think that you took of my post and the questions that I asked AW the wrong way.

So as to not further hi-jack AW''s thread (because, as stated before, that was NOT my intention) I don''t intend to answer any questions about my marriage. If you''d like to know, start another thread.


AW,
I''m very sorry that this thread got off course and hope that you understand that I was not attempting to put down your position on marriage (see above quotes from my posts). I agree (as I''ve now stated at least twice) that you should do what works best *for you*. Best of luck.

 

[Larissa]

Date: 8/18/2006 2:31:19 PM
Author: Christa
I certainly didn''t mean to pick on Larissa with my questions, so I hope it didn''t come across that way!


The important thing in picking a life partner is that you''re generally on the same wavelength, and if you value marriage you need to look for a partner who values marriage. Dragging him (or her) down the aisle is not going to change his (or her) basic attitude toward marriage, and that attitude is likely to cause problems in the long run. Women especially (I know this because I am one!) often forget that dating is supposed to be about finding out whether this person is the right partner for you, not about trying to make him into the right partner . . . it just doesn''t work that way!


And yes, marriage is a piece of paper, and so is a diploma, a birth certificate, a love letter, a driver''s license, the Constitution, the deed to your house . . . all are pieces of paper that represent or attest to something important.

Christa, I knew that someone would get all bent out of shape with my agreement of AW''s statement, which is why I specifically wrote that I didn''t wish to hi-jack this thread. I''m sorry to have cut you short and accused both you and I of hi-jacking in my previous-previous post

 

[Christa]

No problems here, Larissa. Just wanted to make sure you didn''t misunderstand my questions. It''s an easy thing to do when you can''t see facial expressions and body language. I''ll be watching to see if you start a thread about your views on marriage . . . it sounds like we may not agree completely, but I''m still curious (nosy?), and I promise not to beat you up!

OK AW, you can have your thread back now.

 

[always.waiting]

I don''t mind anyone hijacking this thread, it''s all sort of along the same theme anyway. And I could use the distraction Overall, I just really appreciate anyone taking the time to post anything!

As for latest with me (which isn''t much of anything I''m afraid), my bf went to visit family for a week (he has a lot more time off than me), so that''ll be 8 days out of the now 2 wks which will out for any proposing. Sigh..
It was our 3 yr anniv this past wkend, and we went to dinner. I mentioned the "deadline" again, not confrontationally, but just b/c it really seemed as if he''d forgotten and meanwhile I was going through hell. He really didn''t want to talk about it and said, you already gave a deadline, it is what it is. He didn''t say it meanly, but seemed to not think much was up for discussion. So I''m still in my same boat, seeing no signs (ie low credit card balances for past few months) and really don''t know why he is choosing to wait till the last possible minute to either a) tell me he can''t do this, or b) propose.
Ughhhhh!
Glad to hear some other ladies were proposed to this weekend though...I''m so happy and also a lil'' envious at the same time!!

 

[Mandarine]

Hi Always!

You''ve gotten lots of good advice...so I don''t really have much to add!..

Just wanted to say that you mentioned you weren''t sure if you were in the "right" forum...you are! a bunch of us are waiting, just like you are!....so feel free to come and vent, we can relate!

As far as your BF...I don''t know him, but it seems like he''s to calm and not acting like the resolution would be a sad one!.....could he proprose without a ring???? lots of guys do this...maybe he will meet your deadline, propose without a ring and then you two will go shopping together?. Just a thought.

Don''t get discouraged. Guys and girls are just different. My BF is going through some problems... so for him, proposing needs to happen a a later time...once he can take care of this other issues. In my mind, this should be his priority!....but guys are different...it is a priority to him, but he also thinks "what''s the difference between now and 6 months form now?".

Hang in there!

M~

 

[Larissa]

That really does suck. He isn''t letting you in on much. And finding an appartment in a short period of time can be really rough. Maybe he doesn''t realise that by not letting you on what his intentions are that he''s being unfair to you?

Did you do anything special for your 3 years together?

 

[Mandarine]

I just can''t think that he woul be acting so normal, celebrating anniversaries if he''s about to break your heart in a week!!!. I mean, a guy that would do that really just doesn''t deserve you.

Like I said before, I don''t know him, but from what I have read, it doesn''t sound to me like he''s getting ready to break it off. I think he might be getting sick of hearing reminders of the deadline though.

You know him...do you think he would do that to you?....I mean...act so normal, celebrate anniversaries, etc...and then tell you "yeah...sorry...it''s just not gonna happen...you better start looking for an apartment". If the answer if yes...then maybe you need to re-think why you''re still waiting and haven''t just walked out. Sorry if that''s harsh, but that''s just what I think I would do..

Now, like I said...I think he''s not about to do that. You guys most love each other and that''s why you are together and took the step to live together. If you took that step it means you trust him...so who knows...maybe he has something up his sleeve but just needs you to back off with the deadline comments?...Nobody likes being pressured.

Just my .02!

M~

 

[always.waiting]

Yea, I know there isn''t much more advice to give me..really it''s all down to my bf and what he decides to do after he finally gets off his butto. I think I''d be disappointed if it''s a proposal w/out a ring though, only b/c we''ve been talking about this for SO long and it would seem cruel to wait till the last possible minute to just propose informally (which wouldn''t need any kind of preparation). Meaning, in that case he should have done that it this week, or last week if it''s just a question of asking. Sigh..well, I suppose all will be clear soon, it just seems like a slowwwww wait. And to Madeline, thank you for the kind words and I hear ya on guys and girls being different. I agree of course with you that your bf''s priority should be to firm up a committment with you, but sounds like you''re being patient and it''ll probably work out soon!

Thanks Larissa. For our 3 yr, I made no efforts. He did take me out to a nice restaurant and he toasted to 3 good years and many more, blah, blah, but you know, it''s hard for me to feel too great about it. For me I look at it as a personal failure to be 3 yrs with someone and in such flux! I know, I know, I sound like a broken record!

Hope others had a good wkend.

 

[Allisonfaye]

So then, is he otherwise behaving ''normally''?

I am sorry you are suffering so much. I was hoping something happened.

Reading your post and hearing about him putting you off and not be willing to discuss it reminds me of one of my ''where are we headed'' discussions with DH. I sat on him. lol. We were sitting on his couch and I didn''t want him to avoid me or the topic so I sat on him and forced him to talk. Ahhh the good ole days....NOT!

Keep us posted.

 

[ljmorgan]

Out of curiousity, why are you dying to marry someone who would put you through this, whether he''s proposing or not? This three week deadline ensures that 1) he doesn''t propose and the relationship is over or 2) he proposes on the deadline, has dragged his feet the entire way, and put you through a painful experience. It sounds like an awful situation!

 

[always.waiting]

Lindsey: that''s a fair question. I guess my hope is that he''s been planning this proposal for some time now and the 3 wks is something he let me say since I pushed for an immediate timeframe and he knew he could meet it. My hope is that he''s been planning this all along and is holding saying anything b/c he can''t say much since it''s supposed to be a surprise. I am hoping that he doesn''t realize what it is doing to me or that he does but figures it is just a couple of weeks and then I''ll be elated and forget some of the painful wait.
BUT, I''m aware that''s alot of "hoping" and probably a long shot and he could just putting me through all this pain while he waffles and is clueless. He is someone who is very cautious and slow to take action. I suppose I''m giving him the few weeks and putting myself through this since I''ve come this far already. But yes, it''s a horrible situation--having to live like this and be MORE patient (which is feels akin to being held over a fire) or prepare to walk away from someone who I could have potentially been happy with forever and took so long to find. sighh..

Alison, Thanks for sharing...makes me think maybe there is some hope for my bf and I!

 

[allycat0303]

Always.waiting,

I am so sorry you are going through this situation!

I am a little confused though about the situation. You mentioned that marriage to your boyfriend wasn''t that important, yet he did propose to his ex-girlfriend. So I''m wondering if it is the bad experience with the ex-girlfriend that turned him off marriage? Or was it a long difficult road to engagement with her too?

My second question is, have you asked him point blank "Are you planning on proposing to me?" Because to me anyways, saying that " you''re on the same page" or that "he sees you together" Isn''t exactly the same as "Yes I see us together MARRIED" Is it possible that to him, it just means he would like to continue in the current arrangement.

In any case, for me anyways, I would ask the question point blank, because there''s nothing that I hate more then uncertinty. I think having an honest answer to that question would take the agnoy of waiting, and instead make it something more like "anticipation" which is so much more fun!

In any case, good luck with your situation. To me it sounds as though it''s a tough place to be.

 

[ljmorgan]

always.waiting -- I sincerely hope that everything works out for the best! Although I would seriously punch him in the face if he knew he was proposing this whole time...

 

[anchor31]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:06:32 PM
Author: allycat0303
Always.waiting,

I am so sorry you are going through this situation!

I am a little confused though about the situation. You mentioned that marriage to your boyfriend wasn''t that important, yet he did propose to his ex-girlfriend. So I''m wondering if it is the bad experience with the ex-girlfriend that turned him off marriage? Or was it a long difficult road to engagement with her too?

My second question is, have you asked him point blank ''Are you planning on proposing to me?'' Because to me anyways, saying that '' you''re on the same page'' or that ''he sees you together'' Isn''t exactly the same as ''Yes I see us together MARRIED'' Is it possible that to him, it just means he would like to continue in the current arrangement.

In any case, for me anyways, I would ask the question point blank, because there''s nothing that I hate more then uncertinty. I think having an honest answer to that question would take the agnoy of waiting, and instead make it something more like ''anticipation'' which is so much more fun!

In any case, good luck with your situation. To me it sounds as though it''s a tough place to be.

I agree with this 100%. I''ve heard quite a few times on this forum that asking for the guy''s intention spoils the surprise and ruins the magic, but I believe this couldn''t be farther from the truth. My FI started talking about proposing back in September, sometimes as though he was going to propose the day after, others like he was going to propose in ten years... And it was driving me CRAZY! So at one point in November, I asked him what his intentions were. Point blank. And he answered that he was going to propose in 2006. Did that spoil the surprise? Definitely not. Heck, we picked the ring together, he took me with him to pick it up when it was done and proposed an hour later and it was still a surprise!

I guess it''s all a question of personal choice, but... It''s clear that you don''t enjoy being in your situation (nobody would!) and it is possible for you to take action and ease your worries. Your happiness not just up to him, but to you as well.

 

[Christa]

Date: 8/21/2006 6:24:59 PM
Author: anchor31

I agree with this 100%. I''ve heard quite a few times on this forum that asking for the guy''s intention spoils the surprise and ruins the magic, but I believe this couldn''t be farther from the truth. My FI started talking about proposing back in September, sometimes as though he was going to propose the day after, others like he was going to propose in ten years... And it was driving me CRAZY! So at one point in November, I asked him what his intentions were. Point blank. And he answered that he was going to propose in 2006. Did that spoil the surprise? Definitely not. Heck, we picked the ring together, he took me with him to pick it up when it was done and proposed an hour later and it was still a surprise!

I guess it''s all a question of personal choice, but... It''s clear that you don''t enjoy being in your situation (nobody would!) and it is possible for you to take action and ease your worries. Your happiness not just up to him, but to you as well.

I totally agree with you, Anchor! We are talking about two adults making a decision to get married, not a princess in a tower waiting to be rescued by a knight--it should be more about two-way communication than staged "surprises" (though they can be fun, of course).

Just to be clear, that''s just my opinion in general, not meant to imply that AW is trying to be a princess.

She is obviously trying to get the adult communication thing going! As the mother of two daughters, though, I do my best to get through to them that the gooey romantic stuff in chick flicks has almost nothing to do with building a successful marriage.

 

[always.waiting]

Anchor, hopefully i can try make this make more sense without going on too long. He proposed to his previous gf (ended 6 yrs ago) after 2 years. So not as drawn out as me. He says he knew it wouldn''t work since there were fundamental problems with their relationship which an engagement didn''t fix.
I have thought the same things as you many many times. But he has told me over and over that he has no baggage as a result of his broken engagement and does not have negative views on marriage as a result. He says he considers it a blessing that he didn''t marry her. He says he has some different views now then he did then, because he has learned alot with age. He now says he is not influenced by society''s pressures, and would only marry if it was the right person and if it was very important to her, but not because his parents pressure him or because he is an older guy. I questioned all of this, but he was adamant that his prior experience had no effect on how he handles us. In my gut, I still have a hard time believing it, and in my darkest moments I wonder what it is she had that I don''t.
Anyway, no I''ve never point blank asked if he intends to marry me, but I''ve mentioned marriage and kids and our future together. And he has discussed with me where we should move to next (suburbs vs. staying in the city) and where would be best for kids. So he knows what we''re talking about here. Yea, he could be a real jerk and claim he was on some different wavelength, but it would be such a low move, I don''t believe he could say it with a straight face.
Anyway, I have ok days and bad days. Tonight he called to say hi (he''s at his parents for the week at the beach) and I broke down again. I keep telling myself to NOT mention it for 2 weeks for god''s sake, but I''m an emotional wreck and I can''t control myself too much these days. He is exacerbated with me I think--he just said we''ve already talked about this and then I feel terribly guilty for having brought down his mood during his vacation. Anyway, enough venting from me. I know you all sympathise, I really am so happy I discovered this forum!

 

[zdrastvootya]

Well, here''s a guy''s perspective. I read your post where you brought it up and he said we''ve discussed this already (implying no need to discuss further). Although you''re looking for something more reassuring, I think this is guy-speak for "I''ve got it covered". I think you should interpret this in a positive light.

I don''t know your boyfriend but for me when I say I''ll do something, I do it. I take pride in this. My reputation at work in built on this. I don''t like to be questioned repeatedly on something I''ve already said I''ll do. I think it''s a guy thing. My track record is very good. I don''t see why I should be doubted.

Here''s an example. My wife reminds me that our 1st anniv. is coming up and that although she likes to wear the 1st pendant necklace I gave her (has 3 very tiny diamonds), she''d like something bigger. I say, "right, 1st anniv., pendant necklace, bigger." I make a note to myself, but don''t really speak of it further. (I know, Mr. Romantic. Mr. Non-communication - but I do want it to be a surprise.) It''s the 1st anniv. ie., important. I want to get something nice. I call up the diamond dealer that I used for the e-ring. Arrange to see stones (.3 to .4 ct).

My wife says to me a few days ago. I bought myself a pendant (non diamond). It was on sale. You just have to give me the money. (Much less than I was planning to spend.) I say I was planning to get you something. She says if you haven''t bought it yet, what''s the problem? I say (reluctantly), I''ve arranged to see diamonds. She responds with silence, followed by "forget what I said, keep doing what you''re doing". Ah, communication.

Z.

 

[FetusStyle]

Date: 8/17/2006 6:10:34 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly
Someone commented that living together is a sign of the times, and I so agree. That in itself is a MAJOR contributor to the increase of divorce rates. It''s been statistically proven, and since I work in social services, I am well aware how statistics can be swayed, so let me add that this is ACROSS the board in statistics, not just in religious based studies. If you don''t believe me, check. Stats are widely available online.

I would venture to say that divorce is now seen as more of an option because it''s not *such a big deal* anymore. It''s commonplace for a couple to live together before marriage, so once you get married, it''s not a HUGE life change. It''s something people see as *just a paper* or something that makes it all *legal.* Marriage was created before there ever was any legality involved; it was a union between souls, and it was something that didn''t break. Come hell or high water, it lasted.

Over time, that''s changed. Now people are often worried that they won''t be *compatible* in marriage, that they''ll argue over this or that, and things won''t be peachy keen. Anyone who''s ever lived in a family situation knows people annoy you. That''s a given. Living together first in NO WAY makes dealing with the conflicts that come up easier. Rather, it just makes the commitment easier to leave, so that a marriage isn''t broken.

The thing is, though, that marriage IS more than the paper, it''s the heart and soul, the work, the time, the effort, the emotion, the struggles, the laughter, the joy, all of it. So, even if you live together first, and things go downhill and you opt out instead of working through the daily issues of finding a way to get along in a living situation, it''s *still* a broken, deep, emotionally laden relationship. It''s like a marriage, without the paperwork. The pain is just as deep, in my opinion, because people who live together choose to live as if they''re married.

When you have a marriage, there is more investment in the relationship. Anyway, I''m not downing people who choose to live together prior to marriage. To each his own, but saying it prepares you for marriage is a falsehood. Rather, it helps a couple to decide if they want to rule out marriage, as many, more than half even, of those who live together prior to marriage never make it to ''I do,'' while they contend when they move in together that it''s in preparation for ''I do.'' That alone sort of nullifies the idea that it''s prep. for marriage. It''s a free *test run.*

Sorry, I tried to keep my mouth shut but I can''t. The first thing you learn in statistics courses is that correlation does not equal causation. There is no evidence that living together causes people to get divorced. There are numerous other factors involved that studies tend to ignore because they want a certain result. It''s ridiculously easy to manipulate studies, and you really need to look closely at them before buying what they are selling. And as you mentioned, religious types tend to pay for these kind of studies and hide behind other organisations. It is almost impossible to truthfully say something is statistically proven for these reasons, among others.

I lived with my husband before we got married. I suppose that means we are destined for divorce because marriage means less to us than to those who didn''t move in together? I don''t think so. It means everything to me, and divorce is not an option for us. And I think it really did prepare us for marriage. You certainly aren''t in a position to tell me it didn''t! Different things are appropriate for different people. You really shouldn''t make generalisations about people in that fashion when you can''t possibly know their personal feelings or motivations.

I don''t say people should move in together. I say people should do what they think is right for themselves. It does bother me when people use the "why would he buy the cow when he get the milk for free" thing though. I think it is offensive to women and men both to suggest that, because it makes it sound like some sort of transaction- you give him your goods and he marries you. You want to get married to someone who wants to be married to you, not someone who wants something in exchange for it. You don''t want to entice someone into marriage by withholding something of yourself to bait him. A man should go into marriage with a totally willing spirit. (I''ll repeat I''m not saying people should live together first at all, different things are right for different people)

Alwayswaiting- People break out the statistics as a rhetorical tool- it''s just like commercials that have an actor wear a white coat to tell you about cough drops because they figure you''ll listen to someone who is dressed like a doctor. Don''t fall for it. If this doesn''t work out it certainly isn''t going to be because you lived together first. Things that don''t work out weren''t going to work out regardless. My advice is to get some straight answers. Try to talk to him calmly and logically so he doesn''t feel ambushed. See what his plans for the future are. I think 3 weeks is probably not enough for a ring but it is enough for him to decide if he wants to marry. I think it is smart for you to start making plans for things if things don''t work out, but I certainly hope he does decide to make the commitment and start the engagement process soon. Good luck!

 

[Larissa]

Thank you, FetusStyle!! I really wanted to post this, but I make it a point to get picked on no more than once per thread and I was already at my limit in this thread

 

[~*Alexis*~]

Ok I''ve read this post and I was not going to put in my opinion but I thought I should. Most of the LIW''s have heard me rant and rave about my relationship too. Don''t feel bad, we are all their. I thought I would give you a little of my own advice (although sometimes I don''t even take my own) about the living together idea.

My boyfriend and I currently live together, I think it was a good idea and a bad idea all at the same time. The good part is I got to see what he was really like 24/7. The bad idea is that is got to see what he was like 24/7.

So there are somethings that could be changed.

Why buy the cow comment- I do kinda feel as though he doesn''t need to move as fast for the ring or the wedding because we already do live together. I kinda see the comment on the other side. I am his wife in everything but name. I can totally relate to others when it comes to this. I moved out from my parents straight into his house and I think I should have at least lived on my own first before taking that step. However, I got to see what it woud really be like if we did get marriedI have given him until our next anniversary to get the ring or I get out. I have not told him my plan simply because I want him to do it on his own, not because he needs to do it because he wants to keep me in the house or otherwise.

You need to do what is best for you. I am getting the feeling from the post that he is a little irritated over the whole issue because of what you said about the beach thing. For all you know he has a ring and is just waiting for you to kinda ''forget'' for a while. Try not talking about it even though its hard talk about it here then he doesn''t have to hear it all the time.

The more you bring it up the more he might take a step backwards. Keep that in mind. Just let things happen naturally, even though I am in the same boat at you. (see what I mean about not taking my own advice??? lol )

Keep us posted.