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New spessartite
- Thread starter Cind11
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With all due respect, one of the reasons PS exists is for education of the consumer. If Cind didn't want an opinion, she would have not posted her stone here and ask for honest opinions. I for one, am very grateful for the expert opinions on this board that give honest and solid advice when it comes to the purchasing of colored gems. If this forum didn't exist, many people would not have received the best value for their money. Regardless of what we think of a vendor, or their reputation, it's always good to get the viewpoint from others, afterall, we're not the ones trying to make the sale. It's one thing if someone posts a picture of a gem that they've already decided to keep, it's not my business to be going around telling people what decisions to make in that case. However if, like Cind, you're in the evaluation period, and unsure, I think these opinions really matter and help. She did ask for honest opinions afterall.
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Sorry, but I don''t see ANYWHERE that she asked for opinions or feedback in her original posts. She was simply sharing a new stone that she had bought. In fact, when she was asked about her opinion, she said she was "quite pleased." It was only then that you offered your opinion (which she didn''t ask for) and colored her perception of the stone. That''s not "education," that''s trying to persuade someone that their likes/dislikes are somehow incorrect.
mochi
Ideal_Rock
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This is just me and my own small opinion of myself. But when I post pictures, I welcome all feed backs. I find it very educational and love the conversations that accompany my posts/pictures. If I couldn''t handle the feedbacks, than I would probably refrain from posting. But like I said, this is just me.
I enjoy reading the conversation, the twists ad turns that the thread takes makes it very interesting and entertaining, and I learn so much from it.
I enjoy reading the conversation, the twists ad turns that the thread takes makes it very interesting and entertaining, and I learn so much from it.
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Here is the verbiage from her request. I think it's the 17th post down on the first page
Date: 5/11/2009 5:32:29 PM
Author: Cind11
Date: 5/11/2009 5:31:21 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Cindy,
Do you want opinions on the pictures?
Sure. I willl post more...
I also do not think that these are just my likes/dislikes, but trying to give a person an idea on how to judge vividness, saturation and hue, and if those meet her expectations for the price she paid. I also saw brown in that stone when the vendor told her there was none. I felt a responsibility as a member of this forum to give my opinion on that.
I don't know about other people, but I find this to be a very enlightening and informative thread.
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Yes, but you began giving your opinions in post #9, before even asking if she wanted to hear them. I too think this can be an informative thread, but not everyone on here posts their gems to have them critiqued. I would like to share some of the things I''ve been able to accumulate, but I won''t do it for fear of being ripped to shreads because my preferences don''t match the "ideal" or the perceptions of some. You''ll find that others are the same way. If opinions are requested, fine, this is the perfect forum for that and is a big part of the mission of this site.
I must ask: what are your credentials that you feel qualified to "educate" others in their purchases? Are you a GG? Are you in the trade? Just curious. It is one thing to say that you''d like to give a personal opinion of a stone, but it is an entirely different matter to say you''re "educating" someone.
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No one is ripping anyone to shreds, I apologize if you felt that way. I am a collector of colored gemstones, and have collected them for around 20 years, and I also have a library of gemological books that is huge. I don't think you need to have GG credentials to be able to accurately judge color. That would be an insult to many of the great people that love and collect gems as much as I do.
This thread actually stemmed from another thread where Cind bought a spessartite that she was disappointed with. It is a continuation of her search for a spessartite that she can be happy with, so she asked for honest opinions. I hope in the end we can save her some $$ and she can find something she can love since she still is in the evaluation period and does not have to keep the stone. I've seen success stories like that time and time again on PS. No it doesn't have to be top color, not many can afford that. However, you should get the best color for the price you're paying. If this really irritates you so much, I would like if you started a new thread to address this. I don't think it's very productive to Cind's efforts by discussing this here. Thank you.
princessplease
Ideal_Rock
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klewis
Brilliant_Rock
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In my opinion this spessartite has been described accurately by the vendor and the question is does the buyer like it enough to pay the price asked by the vendor. If you post a pic of a stone in this forum you should expect that others will express their opinions about that stone and I suspect Cind11 is interested in the comments posted.
But on this forum there are some posters who comment in seemingly authoratitive tones and you have to be careful not to be too easily influenced by an opinion that might not actually be correct. I have learned so much from this forum and for me it is required daily reading but you must do your own research and listen to and read the recognized experts and then decide what you like yourself. The true connoisseurs, like Richard Wise and of course others too, are able to see the beauty that lies beyond the standards that we all so study and quote.
But on this forum there are some posters who comment in seemingly authoratitive tones and you have to be careful not to be too easily influenced by an opinion that might not actually be correct. I have learned so much from this forum and for me it is required daily reading but you must do your own research and listen to and read the recognized experts and then decide what you like yourself. The true connoisseurs, like Richard Wise and of course others too, are able to see the beauty that lies beyond the standards that we all so study and quote.
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I guess I was confused, because if the stone was accurately described by the vendor, than why would the vendor picture and the pictures that Cind showed look so muted in orange color. Since Cind claims that her pictures are accurate, I still stand by my words. To me that muted orange color is there because it has a brown secondary. Klewis, you have purchased a spess from RW and your pictures showed a more vibrant orange stone.
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All,
An interesting group of opinions. I think in the emotionalism of the moment one important point has been forgotten. We are not discussing the color or beauty of a gemstone, we are discussing images on a monitor and as we all know, each monitor is different, in fact, may or may not be calibrated and therefore each image is different, I won't even get into the question of individual color perception.
Only two people involved have seen the gemstone yet there have been numerous opinions as to the vaguest nuances of color, the existence of lack thereof of "undertones" of brown and purity of orange and what the term "pumpkin" means.
I coined the term at least for the purposes of this discussion yet no one has asked me what I meant by it. Well the stone is question is a pure orange hue. Spessartite, orange spessartite is usually either a brownish or a yellowish orange. Brown is quite simply, dark toned orange or looked at another way, orange is light tone brown. Yellow is a spectral hue.
This particular stone is about a 45% tone---as I explained to Cindy, just about as dark as orange can get before it begins to show a bit of brownish secondary. At lighter tones, spessartite usually shows a bit of a yellow secondary hue.
Yellow can best be understood as the biggest color. It is adjacent to orange on the color wheel. It is big, bright (saturated) and bold and only exists at very light tones. So a yellowish orange spessartite is a bold, bright and light toned spessartite. Orange is a bit richer, though it is also a bold hue...that is why the Coast Guard mandates its use on buoys and life jackets. So add orange and you get richer, add yellow and you get brighter but also lighter. (most of this is explained in my book, Secrets)
By "undertone" I guess the poster is referring to a secondary hue as in brownish orange. Once orange become brown in is no longer a spectral hue. In the evaluation of gemstones, brown is a saturation modifier or mask. Adding brown "muddies" and reduces the saturation of the hue. A brownish orange would be a less saturated orange. This is a generalization, but it does work in most cases though not in the case of brown gemstones.
I am often asked to comment on the quality of gems from images sent to me. I am sometimes asked to make a buying decision from an image. I always try to respond in the same way. "If you want me to evaluate the stone, I must see the stone." For the reasons stated above I think that the wisest course.
An interesting group of opinions. I think in the emotionalism of the moment one important point has been forgotten. We are not discussing the color or beauty of a gemstone, we are discussing images on a monitor and as we all know, each monitor is different, in fact, may or may not be calibrated and therefore each image is different, I won't even get into the question of individual color perception.
Only two people involved have seen the gemstone yet there have been numerous opinions as to the vaguest nuances of color, the existence of lack thereof of "undertones" of brown and purity of orange and what the term "pumpkin" means.
I coined the term at least for the purposes of this discussion yet no one has asked me what I meant by it. Well the stone is question is a pure orange hue. Spessartite, orange spessartite is usually either a brownish or a yellowish orange. Brown is quite simply, dark toned orange or looked at another way, orange is light tone brown. Yellow is a spectral hue.
This particular stone is about a 45% tone---as I explained to Cindy, just about as dark as orange can get before it begins to show a bit of brownish secondary. At lighter tones, spessartite usually shows a bit of a yellow secondary hue.
Yellow can best be understood as the biggest color. It is adjacent to orange on the color wheel. It is big, bright (saturated) and bold and only exists at very light tones. So a yellowish orange spessartite is a bold, bright and light toned spessartite. Orange is a bit richer, though it is also a bold hue...that is why the Coast Guard mandates its use on buoys and life jackets. So add orange and you get richer, add yellow and you get brighter but also lighter. (most of this is explained in my book, Secrets)
By "undertone" I guess the poster is referring to a secondary hue as in brownish orange. Once orange become brown in is no longer a spectral hue. In the evaluation of gemstones, brown is a saturation modifier or mask. Adding brown "muddies" and reduces the saturation of the hue. A brownish orange would be a less saturated orange. This is a generalization, but it does work in most cases though not in the case of brown gemstones.
I am often asked to comment on the quality of gems from images sent to me. I am sometimes asked to make a buying decision from an image. I always try to respond in the same way. "If you want me to evaluate the stone, I must see the stone." For the reasons stated above I think that the wisest course.
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Richard,
You are correct that I, nor anyone else, except you and Cindy have seen the stone in person. Given that it''s tone is so close to brown, perhaps that''s why I am seeing what I''m seeing in the pictures (yours and hers).
The term pumpkin is subjective, yes. However, I have never seen a vivid orange pumpkin.
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Richard,
I did ask what the description "pumpkin orange" meant because I have no idea. Pumpkins come in many different colours and shades, therefore it could mean anything. You are correct that we are discussing images on a monitor because on one is able to see the stone at this point. This is the reason why I gave my opinion with a clearly expressed disclaimer that it is based on a static picture that could well be inaccurate because no one knows the lighting setup, colour balance of the camera, different monitor calibration and so many other unknown variables.
I did ask what the description "pumpkin orange" meant because I have no idea. Pumpkins come in many different colours and shades, therefore it could mean anything. You are correct that we are discussing images on a monitor because on one is able to see the stone at this point. This is the reason why I gave my opinion with a clearly expressed disclaimer that it is based on a static picture that could well be inaccurate because no one knows the lighting setup, colour balance of the camera, different monitor calibration and so many other unknown variables.
movie zombie
Super_Ideal_Rock
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cindy, spess just does not perform in sunlight. anyone using that picture as a point of reference might want to reconsider.
the first picture you took with it in the case and your hand cupping it to keep the light out: is that closer to what you see, cindy?
none of the pictures of my spess do justice to the actual stone: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/finally-spess-pictures.30212/
actually, i like your picture in shaded light better than richard''s photo.....
mz
the first picture you took with it in the case and your hand cupping it to keep the light out: is that closer to what you see, cindy?
none of the pictures of my spess do justice to the actual stone: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/finally-spess-pictures.30212/
actually, i like your picture in shaded light better than richard''s photo.....
mz
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MZ, Cindy, et al.,
No gemstone "performs" well in direct sunlight. Suggest what I call skylight.
Turn your back to the sun and hold the stone out away from your body and perpendicular to the sun''s rays. This allows light to diffuse around your body and gives a more uniform source of light.
Consider time of day, Light begins almost red at sunrise becomes yellow through the morning, is fairly balanced by noon, becomes blue toward afternoon then turns reddish again at sunset. (Secrets p.38. So avoid blue stones after about 1:00pm. Clouds also tend to add blue.
Richard
No gemstone "performs" well in direct sunlight. Suggest what I call skylight.
Turn your back to the sun and hold the stone out away from your body and perpendicular to the sun''s rays. This allows light to diffuse around your body and gives a more uniform source of light.
Consider time of day, Light begins almost red at sunrise becomes yellow through the morning, is fairly balanced by noon, becomes blue toward afternoon then turns reddish again at sunset. (Secrets p.38. So avoid blue stones after about 1:00pm. Clouds also tend to add blue.
Richard
TravelingGal
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Interesting thread. I have been interested these stones lately and they are fun to see.
I guess we all do what we can to help, and that often means going by all we have - pictures. Sometimes those pics are less than optimal. Sometimes the viewing conditions are less than optimal. I was really frustrated when photographing the different pads I had. They just didn''t photograph well. So I made the decision not to post and ask for help, as people would be basing their critiques on untrue color. It was tough though, I could have used the help.
Of course, in the end, I''m pleased with my decision...because it was MY decision.
I guess we all do what we can to help, and that often means going by all we have - pictures. Sometimes those pics are less than optimal. Sometimes the viewing conditions are less than optimal. I was really frustrated when photographing the different pads I had. They just didn''t photograph well. So I made the decision not to post and ask for help, as people would be basing their critiques on untrue color. It was tough though, I could have used the help.
Of course, in the end, I''m pleased with my decision...because it was MY decision.
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TG, it is an interesting thread.
BTW, to RW''s comment that gems do not perform well in direct sunlight. I do have some gems that perform well in direct sunlight, including my spessartite. It doesn''t shift it''s color on me, and I typically go for long walks in the sun with my gemstone rings on. I actually really enjoy looking at them with full sun on them. However, I do think some gemstones do not perform well in direct sunlight. Maybe it''s just semantics, but I think we''re placing too much emphasis on what the stone looks like in various forms of sunlight.
My basic premise with this whole thread is to point out that IN THE PICTURES, the stone does not look vivid enough to be attractive. Since it is one tonal value off from starting too look brown, that kind of proves the point. I would want a stone with a more vivid orange color, and I think it can be done for an affordable amount of $$$. No, it does not have to be top color, or super super neon, but I would rather see something with a bit more orange color and less brown. Spessartites are incredibly beautiful stones in more vivid shades, and that is true regarless of whether it''s yellowish orange or reddish orange, or pure orange.
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Interesting thread.
Photographing gems is a very difficult thing, and what makes it even worse is that most stones like different depending on the light source. I think digital cameras have even a harder time. I have found that green is about the worst color to try to capture, green always seems to go dead on the sensor. Orange spessartites are another tough stone. My experience is that they loose saturation in the photo. I have yet to see an unaltered photo of one that compares to the look of the stone in person. To compensate for this, some dealers will bring the photo into a program like photoshop and enhance the saturation and color. I guess this is fine, if you are only making the stone look the way it does in person, but when exaggerate the color, the this isn''t proper. I see a lot of pictures, especially on eBay that I know have been juiced way up. This presents 2 problems; 1) people get used to seeing these and accept them as how a stone should or could look, and 2) if you buy the stone, then see it in person, you are disappointed. If the dealer is 15,000 miles away it may be a pain in the neck to return the stone, so you end up keeping it.
The solution is really to just see the stone in person, and in a variety of lighting conditions.
Photographing gems is a very difficult thing, and what makes it even worse is that most stones like different depending on the light source. I think digital cameras have even a harder time. I have found that green is about the worst color to try to capture, green always seems to go dead on the sensor. Orange spessartites are another tough stone. My experience is that they loose saturation in the photo. I have yet to see an unaltered photo of one that compares to the look of the stone in person. To compensate for this, some dealers will bring the photo into a program like photoshop and enhance the saturation and color. I guess this is fine, if you are only making the stone look the way it does in person, but when exaggerate the color, the this isn''t proper. I see a lot of pictures, especially on eBay that I know have been juiced way up. This presents 2 problems; 1) people get used to seeing these and accept them as how a stone should or could look, and 2) if you buy the stone, then see it in person, you are disappointed. If the dealer is 15,000 miles away it may be a pain in the neck to return the stone, so you end up keeping it.
The solution is really to just see the stone in person, and in a variety of lighting conditions.
Pandora II
Ideal_Rock
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LOL, seems to be the age old question on photos...
A year or so ago I did a thread on use of photoshop etc with vendor photos.
My take is that I want to see a picture of the stone that is as close as possible to the real thing - so I would like the vendor to sit there with gemstone in one hand, mouse in the other and get the two as similar as possible. I''m also happy for dust specks etc to be cleaned up - but not inclusions in the stone.
Obviously there are always calibration problems so things may look different on different computers - same problem happens if you are using GemeWizard - but I would rather have a photo matched to the stone (even if it has taken an hour of photoshopping to get there) before I have it flown 3000 miles and the hassle of taxes, customs etc than settle for whatever the boffins at Nikon/Canon etc have managed to make their machines do!
IIRC, the vast majority of posters on that thread were of the opinion that photos should not be retouched...
A year or so ago I did a thread on use of photoshop etc with vendor photos.
My take is that I want to see a picture of the stone that is as close as possible to the real thing - so I would like the vendor to sit there with gemstone in one hand, mouse in the other and get the two as similar as possible. I''m also happy for dust specks etc to be cleaned up - but not inclusions in the stone.
Obviously there are always calibration problems so things may look different on different computers - same problem happens if you are using GemeWizard - but I would rather have a photo matched to the stone (even if it has taken an hour of photoshopping to get there) before I have it flown 3000 miles and the hassle of taxes, customs etc than settle for whatever the boffins at Nikon/Canon etc have managed to make their machines do!
IIRC, the vast majority of posters on that thread were of the opinion that photos should not be retouched...
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Gene,
True, but a novice gemstone buyer who has never seen a vivid spessartite in person might not be able to accurately judge the quality of the color. That''s why I''m assuming Cindy posted pictures here, and that''s why many people post pictures here. It''s good to get these independent opinions if they are wanted.
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All,
Oddly enough though this particular stone is quite vivid, it does not photograph that well. I find this happens all the time. Some particular gems are just not as photogenic as others of the same variety.
The gem in question has absolutely no brown secondary in it. Nor do I see brown in the image. It is a medium toned orange. However, if one were attuned to a yellowish orange, I can see how a purer hue could be interpreted as brownish. I have about a dozen spessartites so a pretty good basis for comparison.
The question arises which is better or more valuable since orange spessartite can have a yellowish, brownish, or theoretically reddish (secondary hue).
Normally, the market prefers a pure hue to a mixed hue though this is a rule that admits a number of exceptions. Padparadscha sapphire springs to mind though with that stone the question is about relative percentages of pink and orange. I prefer 50/50 and would tend to downgrade an overly pink pad for example. There are a lot of barely-pads. in the market.
With a gem like spessartite, a visually pure orange is most preferred followed by a slightly yellowish-orange. The tone would have to be no more than medium because medium dark would be brown. Too much yellow, however, visually dilutes the orange. As with other primary hued gems, seems like 15% or less of yellow is ok, any more and you do not have top color.
Oddly enough though this particular stone is quite vivid, it does not photograph that well. I find this happens all the time. Some particular gems are just not as photogenic as others of the same variety.
The gem in question has absolutely no brown secondary in it. Nor do I see brown in the image. It is a medium toned orange. However, if one were attuned to a yellowish orange, I can see how a purer hue could be interpreted as brownish. I have about a dozen spessartites so a pretty good basis for comparison.
The question arises which is better or more valuable since orange spessartite can have a yellowish, brownish, or theoretically reddish (secondary hue).
Normally, the market prefers a pure hue to a mixed hue though this is a rule that admits a number of exceptions. Padparadscha sapphire springs to mind though with that stone the question is about relative percentages of pink and orange. I prefer 50/50 and would tend to downgrade an overly pink pad for example. There are a lot of barely-pads. in the market.
With a gem like spessartite, a visually pure orange is most preferred followed by a slightly yellowish-orange. The tone would have to be no more than medium because medium dark would be brown. Too much yellow, however, visually dilutes the orange. As with other primary hued gems, seems like 15% or less of yellow is ok, any more and you do not have top color.
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People view colours in different ways and some are more sensitive to secondary masks than others. I DO see brown in the original image. Others don''t. I''ve seen grey in sapphires when others haven''t! This doesn''t make me right and others wrong - it''s perception of colour.
If you don''t like something you''re more prone to seeing it. Photographs are truly dreadful at representing colour.
Cind - if you like it, keep it. Does the Spess yell "keep me"? If you sent it back, would you be on the phone the next day trying to get it back? For me, this is the test. I''ve learned to live with a gemstone for a few days, looking at it in different lights before I make a definite decision.
If you don''t like something you''re more prone to seeing it. Photographs are truly dreadful at representing colour.
Cind - if you like it, keep it. Does the Spess yell "keep me"? If you sent it back, would you be on the phone the next day trying to get it back? For me, this is the test. I''ve learned to live with a gemstone for a few days, looking at it in different lights before I make a definite decision.
TravelingGal
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Price woudl also be a consideration as well when deciding to keep a colored gem, diamond, etc. . . I would want the best color for my money. I know they say you get what you pay for in the world of colored gems, but I wouldn't keep a satisfactory stone, or even an amazing stone, if I knew I could get that same quality or better for less money. I'm not just directing that at the OP, but anyone shopping for colored gems. I have seen people get exceptionately colored gems for a very good price, and some get awful gems for an expensive price. Shop around, and take time to make a decision.
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Cind11
Brilliant_Rock
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Cind11
Brilliant_Rock
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I''m glad that my thread has elicited such a lively discussion. I have found all of this extremely interesting and feel like I have learned some things. I think I did mention back early in this thread, that the stone is an intense orange, but that seems to have been lost somehow. In truth, I was not expecting some of the responses I received because I really didn''t see brown in the stone. I will admit that I do not always see undertones (or secondaries I guess would be the proper term) though. I do trust Richard''s eye. And I said from the beginning that I liked it.
I am keeping the stone.
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