Newbie needing advice for diamond prices

[Gypsy]

Thanks again Gypsy, this forum has been invaluable in helping me realize the value I can buy within my budget...these shops on Jeweler's row in Chicago keep telling me they can't get me anything good for a 10k budget and you all have found me amazing diamonds for UNDER budget! I am so thankful for your help!

It's our pleasure!

 

[phi208]

Here are some additional options. All the vendor will offer idealscopes and can check the diamonds for you to see if they are eyeclean.


http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/1.50-carat-i-si1-hearts-and-arrows-round-cut-diamond-gid-167547.html Ask if this one is in house or not. There are pictures and idealscopes posted, but they say "sample image" on them. Which seems like a mistake. Anyway, it's underbudget and if those are the correct pics, then it's just gorgeous. And if those aren't, they can get the correct pics for you! Plus it has strong blue which will help the color whiten a bit (just ask them to confirm there are no negative effects from it, which is unlikely).

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4583475-1.40-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-Clarity.aspx?sku=4583475&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

I'm really liking the first "hearts and arrows" stone, but am a little weary of them giving that label to the diamond because it is GIA. I thought AGS was the only lab that can designate a true "hearts and arrows" right?

Also, for one of the stones above you mentioned it had a pavilion angle of 41. Is that good or bad? Thanks again!

 

[Gypsy]

Here are some additional options. All the vendor will offer idealscopes and can check the diamonds for you to see if they are eyeclean.


http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/1.50-carat-i-si1-hearts-and-arrows-round-cut-diamond-gid-167547.html Ask if this one is in house or not. There are pictures and idealscopes posted, but they say "sample image" on them. Which seems like a mistake. Anyway, it's underbudget and if those are the correct pics, then it's just gorgeous. And if those aren't, they can get the correct pics for you! Plus it has strong blue which will help the color whiten a bit (just ask them to confirm there are no negative effects from it, which is unlikely).

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4583475-1.40-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-Clarity.aspx?sku=4583475&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

I'm really liking the first "hearts and arrows" stone, but am a little weary of them giving that label to the diamond because it is GIA. I thought AGS was the only lab that can designate a true "hearts and arrows" right?

Also, for one of the stones above you mentioned it had a pavilion angle of 41. Is that good or bad? Thanks again!

I thought they were both 40.8 pavillion angle?

No, AGS is not the only lab to designate a hearts and arrows. Hearts and arrows is just patterning.

AGS is the only lab to test light return. They designate AGS0's.

That doesn't mean GIA stones can't have ideal light return. They can. That's what the HCA and idealscope is for.

 

[phi208]

I thought they were both 40.8 pavillion angle?

No, AGS is not the only lab to designate a hearts and arrows. Hearts and arrows is just patterning.

AGS is the only lab to test light return. They designate AGS0's.

That doesn't mean GIA stones can't have ideal light return. They can. That's what the HCA and idealscope is for.

Ok thanks Gypsy! There was one in a much earlier post where you had put that the pavilion angle was 41, so I was just curious.

So I have to ask, how does one go about verifying that the diamond purchased online is the actual diamond that is put into the setting? I have a friend that is going to school to become a GIA grader, and she insists that I work with a local jeweler because she says that I shouldn't trust online diamond dealers since it's possible that I can be viewing fraudulent or duplicate GIA reports and that there's no way for me to know what stone is going into my setting. Have there been horror stories of online retailers doing this, or is she providing me with incorrect information? The deals I've seen online are very hard to pass up, but I have to be honest and admit that I'm very hesitant to purchase something so expensive without having a chance to see the actual stone in person. And even if they send me the stone to verify and have me send it back to be placed into a ring setting...how do I even check to make sure the same diamond was put back in there?

Sorry for all the questions....I've been saving for a long time and just don't want to make any mistakes or end up getting ripped off. Thanks for your help as always!

 

[Gypsy]

Asking questions is good.

I don't know what your friend has been told but I've met the head of the GIA several times at Pricescope GTG's and heard him speak very highly of this forum and of the vendors we recommend. I've met the head of AGS too, same thing.

It sounds to me like your friend wants the best for you. I think that's great. But as you said yourself this person is just starting out in the trade.

Do you want me to try to find a local jeweler so that you can shop there? There are many we recommend for situations exactly like this. There may be one near you (not always but most of the time without a couple hours drive).

Also you should know that several of the jewelers on here are 'real' jewelers with "brick and mortar" stores. Engagement Rings Direct has a store in NY. Good Old Gold has a store in Long Island. Pearlmans has a store in Battle Creek Michigan. James Allen has offices in Washington, DC where they see clients. Whiteflash and Brian Gavin have offices where they see clients in TX.

I myself have bought from several of the vendors here and everything I have bought has always appraised well. I've recommended them to may friends and they have had the same experience.

I always use independent appraisers. No one linked to any jewelry store. They will usually lie to you to encourage you to return whatever it is, and then buy from them.

Here's a list of appraisers: https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers..

I suggest that if you (or anyone) buy something (no matter where from-- local or online) you make an appointment with one of them. You can hold the lab report back (many will not ask for it at all, wanting not to be influenced) and see what they say about the stone on it's own merits.

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks so much Gypsy, this is great information!! I appreciate you taking the time to explain everything to me so thoroughly as well! I'm going to keep searching and will check out the links that you posted as well. Much appreciated! This is one of the friendliest forum communities I've been on to date, thank you!

Since your fathers friend seems to be treating you fairly on prices, even though "we" do not really like the choices, take the GIA number of any stone that you find to him and ask him if he can find the diamond on Rap and meet or beat the price on the site where you found it. (Same thing with AGS numbers, but do not look at or bother with third tier labs like EGL.)

Even on Blue Nile and James Allen this is often possible as they do not own many, if not most, of the diamonds that they are showing on their sites. (This will not be true of their select diamonds but most of their inventory that they show is virtual.)

In this way you can still do business with your father's friend, which to me would be important if you have a good relationship with your father, AND get the best possible deal on a one time purchase. Heck, if it is important enough to you to have that friendly personal local service, you might even give him a few dollars more for helping you with the right diamond.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Your friends father isn't doing so good a job. Tell us you budget and we get you a much better deal.

Thanks AprilBaby, yeah I'm starting to think the same thing. I would definitely appreciate any help you all can provide! Here is my budget and what I'm looking for, thanks in advance!

Budget: No more than $10,000 for the stone
Specs:
Round Brilliant
No less than 1.3ct
I would like to put all my money in CUT. So Ideal/EX for sure
Triple EX would be great, but I'm willing to go down to Very Good Symmetry and Polish
Color is where I can sacrifice the most, because I'm putting it on a yellow gold band. So for color, nothing worse than I color I would say.

I think my biggest difficulty is that now I realize even though GIA is rating their cut as EX, the table and depth % and crown and pavilion angles can still greatly affect the quality of the stone. I used to think that a GIA triple EX stone was the best brilliance/fire, etc...but I'm glad I learned sooner than later!

Thanks so much!!

Yes, a huge percentage of the diamonds being cut today qualify for the GIA X rating. Many of them are complete DOGS!!!

Someone here said a few weeks ago that a "GIA X is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get!"

I wish I had thought of it, it's brilliant. Some of them are incredible, but some of them are chaff and should have been thrown out.

GIA's cut grade system is seriously flawed and needs to be redone, but it is not in the interests of the manufacturers who pay their overhead for them to do so. I would not hold your breath too long waiting for it to happen.

AGS has the best system for cut grading in this country, if not the world, but they are increasingly marginalized by manufactures who make more money cutting to GIA specs than they can cutting the diamonds for maximum beauty. We, the people who care about beauty, keep shouting that the "Emperor has no clothes," but the majority of the public believes as you did that GIA X is the best. Please help us spread the word once you have gotten a worthy diamond!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Asking questions is good.

I don't know what your friend has been told but I've met the head of the GIA several times at Pricescope GTG's and heard him speak very highly of this forum and of the vendors we recommend. I've met the head of AGS too, same thing.

It sounds to me like your friend wants the best for you. I think that's great. But as you said yourself this person is just starting out in the trade.

Do you want me to try to find a local jeweler so that you can shop there? There are many we recommend for situations exactly like this. There may be one near you (not always but most of the time without a couple hours drive).

Also you should know that several of the jewelers on here are 'real' jewelers with "brick and mortar" stores. Engagement Rings Direct has a store in NY. Good Old Gold has a store in Long Island. Pearlmans has a store in Battle Creek Michigan. James Allen has offices in Washington, DC where they see clients. Whiteflash and Brian Gavin have offices where they see clients in TX.

I myself have bought from several of the vendors here and everything I have bought has always appraised well. I've recommended them to may friends and they have had the same experience.

I always use independent appraisers. No one linked to any jewelry store. They will usually lie to you to encourage you to return whatever it is, and then buy from them.

Here's a list of appraisers: https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers...

I suggest that if you (or anyone) buy something (no matter where from-- local or online) you make an appointment with one of them. You can hold the lab report back (many will not ask for it at all, wanting not to be influenced) and see what they say about the stone on it's own merits.

Gypsy is not only a prolific helper of new people here at Pricescope, she is correct in what she is telling you. You can Google any of the PS vendors (I know you remember this term since you just learned it a few posts ago...[said with a twinkle in my eye]) and you will find VERY few negative posts about any of them. One bad thing such as indicated by your friend would result in massive bad publicity and very likely result in banning from Pricescope and loss of that person's business. Our reputations are the reason why you can safely deal with us.

Wink

 

[phi208]

Thanks very much for the additional insight Wink! I think after reading all of this, and after all of Gypsy's wonderful help I am going to start looking more towards online retailers. I actually called my friend's father yesterday and asked him if he could find me diamonds similar to those I found online at these great prices, and he kind of got mad at me and accused me of "playing games" with him. It got me a little upset, because it seems like he's really trying to push me to buy one of his diamonds that he already has. He pretty much said "why would I bring in a diamond from another online dealer and sell it to you for their asking price? I would be losing money." He basically told me to come in and look at the diamonds he brought in for me on Monday...and if I liked them, buy them. If not, then go online...so I'm just going to go to be respectful and nice to my buddy....but I don't think I want to do business with his father anymore.

He's been in the business for 47 years he claims, yet the diamonds he has been picking out for me aren't good...he keeps telling me not to be "so fussy" and worry about specs and instead purchase the diamond if I think it's beautiful....so basically pushing me to make an emotional buy instead of a smart educated one. I'm so thankful for you all on this forum, I would have been totally taken advantage of if I had not read all of the information here.

Gypsy, do you know of any reputable brick and mortar shops in the Chicago area that won't rip me off on prices for a diamond? I do have to admit that having a store nearby to have the ring cleaned, repaired, etc. when needed is convenient...one of the main reasons why I'd like to have a local place...but if the price online is too good to pass up, I may just bite the bullet hehe.

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks very much for the additional insight Wink! I think after reading all of this, and after all of Gypsy's wonderful help I am going to start looking more towards online retailers. I actually called my friend's father yesterday and asked him if he could find me diamonds similar to those I found online at these great prices, and he kind of got mad at me and accused me of "playing games" with him. It got me a little upset, because it seems like he's really trying to push me to buy one of his diamonds that he already has. He pretty much said "why would I bring in a diamond from another online dealer and sell it to you for their asking price? I would be losing money." He basically told me to come in and look at the diamonds he brought in for me on Monday...and if I liked them, buy them. If not, then go online...so I'm just going to go to be respectful and nice to my buddy....but I don't think I want to do business with his father anymore.

He's been in the business for 47 years he claims, yet the diamonds he has been picking out for me aren't good...he keeps telling me not to be "so fussy" and worry about specs and instead purchase the diamond if I think it's beautiful....so basically pushing me to make an emotional buy instead of a smart educated one. I'm so thankful for you all on this forum, I would have been totally taken advantage of if I had not read all of the information here.

Gypsy, do you know of any reputable brick and mortar shops in the Chicago area that won't rip me off on prices for a diamond? I do have to admit that having a store nearby to have the ring cleaned, repaired, etc. when needed is convenient...one of the main reasons why I'd like to have a local place...but if the price online is too good to pass up, I may just bite the bullet hehe.

Oops, stupid response on his part.

I used to consult with retail jewelers but found it took too much of my time for too little return.

If he looked at what he lost he would realize how much he could have gained.

1. He sells you a diamond at a very small profit margin. (Seven to eight percent on a 10k sale is still $700 to $800 more than he had in the morning when he woke up.)

2. He most likely gets to sell you a nice mounting on which he will make a larger percentage profit which will he will be happy with, even if it is only $300 or $400 dollars, which is one of the huge fallacies of thinking in terms of percentages. (Just ask me how happy I would be to make 3% on a four million dollar deal, I came within one day of doing just that once, but the Hong Kong market dropped the day before the stocks for the sale were to be sold.)

3. He would have earned your respect and since he is friend to the family the business of your close friends and increased the solidity of his relationship with your family.

4. He would have had the pleasure of knowing that personal service has great value and is the best way to combat Internet vendors. In spite of almost every one studying on the net, the vast majority of sales are actually made in Bricks and mortar stores that are smart enough to play in the game.

Wink

 

[phi208]

Oops, stupid response on his part.

I used to consult with retail jewelers but found it took too much of my time for too little return.

If he looked at what he lost he would realize how much he could have gained.

1. He sells you a diamond at a very small profit margin. (Seven to eight percent on a 10k sale is still $700 to $800 more than he had in the morning when he woke up.)

2. He most likely gets to sell you a nice mounting on which he will make a larger percentage profit which will he will be happy with, even if it is only $300 or $400 dollars, which is one of the huge fallacies of thinking in terms of percentages. (Just ask me how happy I would be to make 3% on a four million dollar deal, I came within one day of doing just that once, but the Hong Kong market dropped the day before the stocks for the sale were to be sold.)

3. He would have earned your respect and since he is friend to the family the business of your close friends and increased the solidity of his relationship with your family.

4. He would have had the pleasure of knowing that personal service has great value and is the best way to combat Internet vendors. In spite of almost every one studying on the net, the vast majority of sales are actually made in Bricks and mortar stores that are smart enough to play in the game.

Wink

I couldn't agree with you more Wink!

 

[Gypsy]

Try Dimend Scaasi if you want local.

They have a great website. And they have good reviews here. They used to be an Infinity vendor, though I'm not sure why they are not anymore.


I didn't mention him (my bad) but also, I HIGHLY recommend Wink (highperformancediamonds.com).

I've bought from him and he's REALLY a TOTALLY amazing vendor that goes above and beyond. He can find ANYTHING you want.

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=diamond-search And he's having a sale RIGHT NOW.

 

[WinkHPD]

Try Dimend Scaasi if you want local.

They have a great website. And they have good reviews here. They used to be an Infinity vendor, though I'm not sure why they are not anymore.


I didn't mention him (my bad) but also, I HIGHLY recommend Wink (highperformancediamonds.com).

I've bought from him and he's REALLY a TOTALLY amazing vendor that goes above and beyond. He can find ANYTHING you want.

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=diamond-search And he's having a sale RIGHT NOW.

Thank you for the shout out Gypsy. You are very kind.

Wink

 

[phi208]

Thanks Gypsy and Wink for all of your help! Wink, you are a very modest guy for not even mentioning your business which to me speaks volumes of your character. I would love to see what you have in your inventory based on my budget and criteria from previously.

My main goal is to get a stone with the best brilliance/fire or whatever the technical term is for the most sparkly diamond out there for the best price hahaha. Wink, I notice that your site advertises only diamonds that are cut extremely well...would a 1.5ct at 10k stone be unrealistic when it comes to that kind of quality diamond?

Thank you!

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks Gypsy and Wink for all of your help! Wink, you are a very modest guy for not even mentioning your business which to me speaks volumes of your character. I would love to see what you have in your inventory based on my budget and criteria from previously.

My main goal is to get a stone with the best brilliance/fire or whatever the technical term is for the most sparkly diamond out there for the best price hahaha. Wink, I notice that your site advertises only diamonds that are cut extremely well...would a 1.5ct at 10k stone be unrealistic when it comes to that kind of quality diamond?

Thank you!

Wink can't post diamonds for you.

You can get to 1.45-1.5 if you drop to I-J SI1. And if he doesn't have anything in stock for you he can easily find you something wonderful. He specializes in that as a matter of fact.

You have to call him up or email him if you want more information from him. Forum rules are strict here for vendors.

 

[WinkHPD]

<SNIP>

Wink can't post diamonds for you.

<SNIP>

You have to call him up or email him if you want more information from him. Forum rules are strict here for vendors.

And rightfully so. This way we can give assistance in the form of education and you can go to which ever vendor you choose without feeling obligated.

There are so many people here looking for so many different things that no one of us could ever be everything for everyone any way.

The way the Leonid set it up and that Andrey has carried forward with his own improvements has made this one of the most educational and enjoyable forums of any kind that exists today. I think that is also one of the most comfortable for both vendors and buyers as we share so much incredible information and knowledge here.

Wink

 

[Gypsy]

<SNIP>

Wink can't post diamonds for you.

<SNIP>

You have to call him up or email him if you want more information from him. Forum rules are strict here for vendors.

And rightfully so. This way we can give assistance in the form of education and you can go to which ever vendor you choose without feeling obligated.

There are so many people here looking for so many different things that no one of us could ever be everything for everyone any way.

The way the Leonid set it up and that Andrey has carried forward with his own improvements has made this one of the most educational and enjoyable forums of any kind that exists today. I think that is also one of the most comfortable for both vendors and buyers as we share so much incredible information and knowledge here.

Wink

Totally agree!

 

[phi208]

Oh wow, that makes a lot of sense and I couldn't agree more! You all have been so helpful and I am extremely grateful for all of the help!

So I stopped by my friend's father's shop today because he had found 2 more stones for me to view. He actually apologized for accusing me of playing games and said that he just wants to make sure that I get something that I don't regret later. I don't know why there's such a stigma around buying online, but he's pretty old school.

Anyway, he showed me one diamond that really blew my mind and I wanted to run it by all of you to see what you thought.

GIA
1.51ct
Color: I
Clarity: SI1 (Eye clean, there's a small cloud on the table that I can see with a 10x loupe but nothing bad) (listed as Cloud, feather, crystal, pinpoint)
Cut: EX
Symmetry: EX
Polish: EX
Depth: 59.3%
Table: 60%
Crown Angle: 32.5 degrees
Pavilion: 41 degrees
Cutlet: None
Girdle: Medium (faceted 3%)
Fluorescence: None
HCA: 1.4 - Excellent
Light Return: EX
Fire: EX
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread: EX
Measurement of diameter I believe is 7.51mm X 7.47mm
Price: $10,600

They showed me the diamond in a hearts and arrows viewer (it said H&A in the notes) and it looks simply beautiful. I have been reading a lot on how to see the hearts and arrows and make sure they are cut well, etc. and it looks really good!

Do you all think this price is good for what I'm getting? Thanks again for all of your help and input!

 

[Gypsy]

It's a nice stone. Much nicer than the others. It's also a 60/60 so I wish you could see it through an idealscope. But... you can always take it to an appraiser that has one.

Some people (Wink included) don't care for 41% pavillion angles. But others (just as picky) do.

And I'm okay with them. And I like 60/60 stones, though I normally don't recommend buying one without an idealscope image.

So .... I think that if you liked the stone, and your friends father is willing to give you at least a 7 day no questions asked policy, you can go for it. I would not get it set yet though.

I would take it unset to this gentleman: https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers/illinois and have him give you his opinion. If he verifies it, then have it set, then take back to him set for him to do a full appraisal on the set ring for your insurance.

And if your friends father has an issue, just tell him that you trust him, but you think that whenever spending thousands of dollars it is smart to verify and get second opinions.

 

[phi208]

Thanks so much Gypsy! So I must ask, what are the pros/cons of a 60/60 stone and the 41 degree pavilion angles? I have no idea what the differences are and why some people prefer them etc, and it would be great to know. Thanks again!

 

[Gypsy]

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond This should help you understand it.

60/60 is what we call a "traditional' style of modern round brilliant. It is different than the other style which is the Tolkowsky ideal cut (see here https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/tolkowsky-ideal-cut-diamond).

60/60s do have nice spread ( face up dimensions) and they do have large tables. Those aren't bad things. But it does mean that MOST of them will have performance issues that compromise the light return due to the pavillion angles that result from the shallower depth and the larger table. So you have to weed through them carefully (HCA is helpful for that, but the idealscope is really the thing that confirms the light performance).

I would buy a 60/60 diamond with an idealscope image (or buy one with a good HCA, and a return policy and take it to an appraiser).

From Rhino at Good Old Gold: " So 60/60 diamonds *can* indeed have ideal brilliance but not on that virtue alone. They must be cut to the proper angles in order to reflect back light properly. The primary feature to learn about this particular diamond is how little table size actually contributes to the (internal) reflective properties of the diamond. I have a particular fondness of this particular combination of major and minor facet proportions with the exception of the table size (I like em around the mid 50's) as this particular combination gives off a nice balance of brightness, fire and scintillation."

(Quoted from this article: http://www.goodoldgold.com/Articles/GIACutGrading/Grade1/ )

 

[Gypsy]

41 degree pavillion angle information here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/41-degree-pavillion-angle.65301/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/41-degree-pavillion-angle.65301/[/URL] (long thread to be prepared to hunker down and read it through).

 

[phi208]

Oh wow, thanks so much! Ok time to do some more reading....the diamond is from an outside dealer that my friend's dad got for me so not sure how that's going to work with the 7 day return...I'm headed there now to ask him. Thanks again!

 

[phi208]

Here's the GIA Report number in case anyone was curious...I think I'm going to go with this stone, I hope I'm making a good choice! Thanks again for all of your help!

GIA: 1159671858

 

[Gypsy]

Same diamond offered here: http://www.since1910.com/diamond/1-51ct/i-si1/round/brilliant/cut/diamond/-r-50167-49796022

And at the same price. So you are getting a good price on it too!

 

[phi208]

Wow that's great!!! Thanks for posting Gypsy, makes me feel much more confident in going with this stone. You all have been a tremendous help, and for that I am eternally grateful! Just finished reading through the thread regarding the 41 pavilion angle and I am very happy with the way the stone performs, can't wait to see the finished product. I'll be sure to post here when all is said and done. THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART!

 

[Gypsy]

You are welcome phi208! I'm glad we were able to help you make an educated decision on a beautiful diamond for your lady in budget.

I do hope you will post pictures for us. It's the best thanks you can give us.

Congratulations!

 

[phi208]

Oh I will definitely post pictures as soon as I get the finished product, it's the least I could do!