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Now Gay Marriages and Contraceptives are being reviewed by scotus

@kenny I shared a NYT article above about gay marriage and contraception. According to the NYT these five people are next going after affirmative action and other issues. Not gay marriage. Hope that helps provide some relief for you. And I stand by what I wrote before. They will continue to leave it to the states IMO. Calfiornia will protect you. So will NY and NJ among many other states. This whole thing is BS and I am pissed that others are worrying about things they shouldn't worry about. These are our RIGHTS as human beings and the *&%*$ government can go &^%*$ itself.
 
mrs-b said:
My nature is to fight, but the battles seem to be piling up. In the end I'll probably join @missy, give all my money to animal welfare, and hope mankind is ultimately scrubbed from the planet, leaving the flora and fauna to take over.
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We can do both. My nature is not to give up so I won't. But yes animals are more worthy than human beings many times over. However I won't abandon humans just yet. Though in the long run this earth would be better off without humans continuing to destroy it. :(

You and I and everyone here who believes in the right to control our own bodies will continue to fight against this archaic thinking and destruction of our basic rights. The people we are working against are self righteous hypocritical *&%$ and we will not let them win. Not while we are here on this earth.
 
missy said:
A large part of the bible is a work of fiction written by men.
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Yes, exactly! I ignore most of the Bible, except the parts about kindness and loving everyone.
 
Everyone is for human rights and bodily autonomy but only when it suits them.
" A bit" hypocrytical, innit?
 
Jambalaya said:
Yes, exactly! I ignore most of the Bible, except the parts about kindness and loving everyone.
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A good lesson for everyone but we don’t need the Bible for that IMO. Since it is work of fiction mostly anyway. :)
 
Hi,
Basically, all history is written by persons. The Bible is an historical record of places and times. It's fairly accurate. If you do not believe in the belief system discussed in its pages that is one thing, but it is an historical record and should not be thought of as fiction. I realize that some of it is figurative and should not be taken literally but much is historically correct. No Jonah wasn't in the stomach of the whale. I concede that.

Human nature appears to have given some of us a need to impose our will over others. If we didn't have religion, they find other justifications for doing so. Remember these people on the right believe what they say. They think it is murder. They have used our political system, which has also been written by men, to get their way. Its how democracy works.
So the only way forward is to keep fighting for what you think is right. To give up is not an option if you want to succeed.

Mrs B , I like you alot. Don't give up on us yet. We have had this fight before. We need to stay focused on the goal. Its work, its hard, its sad, but necessary.

Affirmative action seems to be next for the Justices. I just read this morning that suburbanites are switching party alliance from D to R. They are tired of giving so much emphasis to Race. So am I. I'm a member of the group that thinks class is more a determinative factor on discrimination than race.

Missy's last post was informative.

Annette
 
missy said:
Since it is work of fiction mostly anyway. :)
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You can't possibly know that for sure. And did you know, some of the world's greatest scientists have faith? Also, you should read the book Quantum Enigma. There is something fundamental about this world that we do not understand, and science knows it. The book is published by Oxford University Press (so is reputable) and is written by scientists, Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner. The hut-couple experiment will blow your mind. I recommended the book to Matata ages ago, and it gave her a headache! Lol!

Point is, there is too much about this world that we do not understand to state so flatly that the Bible is mainly a work of fiction, IMHO. It's surprisingly close-minded of you, Missy! (I say that with affection, because I do not think of you as a close-minded person AT ALL!)
 
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smitcompton said:
The Bible is an historical record of places and times.
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That's my point - there was a real human preacher named Jesus Christ, and forget about him being the son of god or anything - Jesus-the-real-human-being taught unconditional love for EVERYONE, which means that this human man was thousands of years ahead of his time, and I don't think he would have had any problem at all with gay people, trans people, bi people, different genders, etc.

Missy is right that we don't need a book for that, and I don't follow the Bible - I barely know it, really - I just like the parts about Mr. Jesus's story because I think he sounded really, really nice. :) And I'm open to the fact that his story might be real, because.....we don't know, and because quantum physics gives us a REAL conundrum to ponder....

ETA re. quantum physics: The double-slit experiment shows how odd this world is. It's an experiment that has been tested thousands and thousands of times in universities worldwide and had been shows to be airtight. But it's frigging weird. Basically, little particles of matter sometimes behave like waves, not matter....depending on who's watching. The very act of observation makes the "item" act different.

My point is that, for me anyway, we know so little for sure about what really makes this world tick - just consider how little we know about the brain! - that I can come to no firm conclusions about much of it.

"Unparalleled strangeness"

Physics in a minute: The double slit experiment

One of the most famous experiments in physics demonstrates the strange nature of the quantum world.
plus.maths.org plus.maths.org
 
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Hi,

I don't mean to speak for Missy, but I think her emotions have clouded her usual balance. I already have stated, I don't want anyone to get a stroke or heart attack over this. For some it is very emotional.
Missy-- I really was thinking of you this morning. There are people out there who do think abortion is murder. What came to mind is , how would you feel if people put kittens in a sack and drowned them. I don't want to think about what you would do.

I hope you all know I support abortion rights for all. But I do understand where some people are coming from.

Annete
 
Jambalaya said:
You can't possibly know that for sure. And did you know, some of the world's greatest scientists have faith? Also, you should read the book Quantum Enigma. There is something fundamental about this world that we do not understand, and science knows it. The book is published by Oxford University Press (so is reputable) and is written by scientists, Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner. The hut-couple experiment will blow your mind. I recommended the book to Matata ages ago, and it gave her a headache! Lol!

Point is, there is too much about this world that we do not understand to state so flatly that the Bible is mainly a work of fiction, IMHO. It's surprisingly close-minded of you, Missy! (I say that with affection, because I do not think of you as a close-minded person AT ALL!)
Click to expand...

I said mostly. Not entirely. An important distinction. :)
 
smitcompton said:
Hi,

I don't mean to speak for Missy, but I think her emotions have clouded her usual balance. I already have stated, I don't want anyone to get a stroke or heart attack over this. For some it is very emotional.
Missy-- I really was thinking of you this morning. There are people out there who do think abortion is murder. What came to mind is , how would you feel if people put kittens in a sack and drowned them. I don't want to think about what you would do.

I hope you all know I support abortion rights for all. But I do understand where some people are coming from.

Annete
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Dear Annette I am very fond of you. Unfortunately that analogy is fallacious.
These kittens you are speaking of are already living. Already born. Vs an unborn fetus. A mass of cells not yet differentiated.


I am pro CHOICE when it comes to this issue. Up to the individual.


I am against murdering kittens. But my husband and I do TNR (trap, neuter, release) which prevents unwanted kittens from being born. And yes I support abortions on Ferals if it’s not too late. Perhaps that is a better analogy. One I do support.
 
smitcompton said:
There are people out there who do think abortion is murder.
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Murder is the illegal taking of a life. Abortion legal = no murder = problem solved.

Both pro choice and pro birth groups spent too much time arguing over when life begins, when a zygote becomes human, when a fetus feels pain, when it develops sentience. Cells are alive in whatever conformation they exist. Killing cells ends their life. We needed to, and still need to, come to terms that abortion means killing cells = killing life.

The focus should have been and still should remain on the point that abortion is a medical procedure and a pregnant woman is the only one who can and should make the decision to have the procedure.

There are pro birthers who accept that killing a fetus is ok when it's the result of rape or incest and also that the fetus should be killed to save the life of the mother. It's difficult to justify pro birth ideology when they, themselves, agree it's ok to kill under some circumstances but not under others. Even those who don't support abortion in the case of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother are making value judgments about who should live and who should die, i.e. when murder is palatable to them, thereby poking holes in their sanctity of all life argument and exposing their damaging hypocrisy.
 
Hi,

Matata-- You are being an absolutist. I can't help laughing now. We are so nicely contradicting each other, while I hope we know we are on the same page, give or take ( a little or a lot). I really do like you people.

Annette
 
Putting kittens in a bag to be drowned, would be killing the kittens AFTER birth; when they are separate from their mother. Your analogy would parallel taking a newborn, human child and then killing it AFTER birth; once a baby is physically separate from its host human mother. Obviously, the scenario of drowning living kittens would be horrific!!! As an animal lover, I shudder at the mere thought.

Anyhow, your analogy about kittens in a bag is totally different than forcing a human mother - against her will - to risk her own life and mental health by being forced to carry an unwanted fetus to term... A woman having control over what happens to her own body, during pregnancy, is totally different than a woman killing her baby AFTER it has been born & is outside of the mother’s womb. A fetus (during the early months of a pregnancy) is only a baby when the human mother wants it. Otherwise, it is just cells growing inside a host.

For the record, domesticated animals do not have to have sex that could get them pregnant. Sterilization, or keeping a female animal totally away from all males during her fertile period, assures that a domesticated animal never gets pregnant. However, these FORCED options are not humane for human women. Humans (men & women) have free will. Women are also physically and psychologically different than an animal...

Yes, taking away a human woman’s rights is a very emotional issue. A woman should have the right to control her own body. A woman should be able to choose (without any government influence) chastity, sterilization, temporary birth control, abortion, or to give birth. None of these options should ever be forced on a woman against her will. Nor should they be taken away. Her body; her choice. Not the church’s. Not the state’s. Women are human beings.

No, what is happening concerning SCOTUS overturning Roe v Wade shouldn't give anyone a heart attack or stroke. But it might... I'm not referring to just the emotional upset now being felt by many women who have been stripped of some their human rights. Pregnancy can actually endanger the life of some women. Therefore, women now need to do their best to help each other to somehow get through all this. Somehow, we will. Or most of us will anyhow. But the landscape for women's rights as full US citizens all across the country has been changed. The country has been changed.

I live in a Ruby Red state and know the rhetoric of the "other side" quite well. Too well. I also know the unspoken motive to control women and their roles in life. I also know the bigoted attitudes towards "others". It is highly unlikely that what happened on Friday will stop at just abortion rights.
 
Hi,

Just to say in defense of my post was that the comparison was meant to be about the feelings of the anti-abortion person, who may feel as deeply about their position as Missy and Starbrite feel about the killing of kittens. It was about intense feelings about the issue.

Annette
 
smitcompton said:
Hi,

Just to say in defense of my post was that the comparison was meant to be about the feelings of the anti-abortion person, who may feel as deeply about their position as Missy and Starbrite feel about the killing of kittens. It was about intense feelings about the issue.

Annette
Click to expand...

Annette, we all get what you are trying to say but the analogy is false and therefore not a good comparison. No one is killing newborn babies. Or rather, no one wants to kill newborn babies. We are talking about having autonomy over our own bodies and IMO it is playing dirty (IMO) to be using the image of sweet newborn kittens (nice try though but it's a fail) and comparing it to a pregnant woman who is not even near giving birth. I will share this to try driving this home to you. What I do with my body is NONE of your (or anyone else's) business. PERIOD. Thank you.

bodilyautonomy.jpg

I see both sides too (I bet all of us who are pro choice see both sides) and I have thought long and hard over the years about this very topic and after much consideration and evaluation I reject those who are anti choice and embrace those who are pro choice.

Simply put, no one, and I mean no one, is going to tell me what I can or cannot do with my own body. Go ahead and try. You will LOSE.
 
Also, I see you have no response to the fact that I am very willing (and have done it before) to abort pregnant momma cats if they have not yet given birth and are not close to giving birth. Not rarely do we trap a pregnant momma cat and bring her for TNR and abort her babies. So there you go. I am not a hypocrite unlike all those who are preaching pro life and don't give a shi* about those lives once they are born.


babies.jpg
 
And just a general FYI. I know we all know this but it bears repeating.

changing.jpg
 
missy said:
I see both sides too (I bet all of us who are pro choice see both sides)
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This is so true. I've also thought about the abortion issue from the point of view of the potential baby - believe me, I really have - but ultimately, if forced to pick a side, I will always pick a woman's right to choose. Forcing a woman to carry and deliver a baby is inhumane and cruel, and to me, her rights trump those of something which is most often - at the point of termination - an insentient tiny clump of cells. (Most abortions are carried out before 12 weeks.)

In an ideal world, there would be no abortion. Abortion is innately sad, and even for those who are sure in their decision, is often a great source of emotional stress, both at the time and thereafter. I cannot believe that a country in which so many people are against abortion does not provide free and readily available contraception. You can't be against abortion and then withhold contraception!!!

Ultimately, one of the sexes has to be the one who carries the next generation, and it's that sex who says what goes. It's the "carrying" gender that has the control. This is what biology dictates, and ultimately it's what the world can't stand - that one person has control of whether the next generation is born, or even conceived at all. Nature gives one sex control of our species, which gives us a TREMENDOUS amount of power and control - and responsibility. I appreciate that male partners might feel that it's incredibly unfair how one person gets to dictate whether their potential baby happens or not, but this is the way that biology made us. It's not our fault - we didn't choose for reproduction to happen this way.

The ideal practical solution to this conundrum is to try to avoid situations where you might need an abortion. If I were a young woman today, I would move heaven and earth to get an IUD and then I would also use condoms and spermicide, and I might also avoid my mid-cycle fertile days for good measure.

It's a mess. People CANNOT accept that biology confers control over reproduction on one gender. They just can't accept it.
 
Jambalaya said:
The ideal practical solution to this conundrum is to try to avoid situations where you might need an abortion. If I were a young woman today, I would move heaven and earth to get an IUD and then I would also use condoms and spermicide, and I might also avoid my mid-cycle fertile days for good measure.
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Jambalaya you had me til this statement. IUDs are not innocuous. I’ll spare you the horror stories but personally I would never consider an IUD. I refuse to put my health at risk. Just what those pro lifers want us to do. Put our lives at risk. And to make it even more ironic they don’t care about those babies once born. Not a whit. The irony is rich wherever you look regarding pro lifers and their self righteous stance.
 
missy said:
Jambalaya you had me til this statement. IUDs are not innocuous. I’ll spare you the horror stories but personally I would never consider an IUD. I refuse to put my health at risk. Just what those pro lifers want us to do. Put our lives at risk. And to make it even more ironic they don’t care about those babies once born. Not a whit. The irony is rich wherever you look regarding pro lifers and their self righteous stance.
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Oh, Ok. It's just that I've heard good things about them and most of my friends' daughters seem to have them these days. Supposedly they're the most reliable form of contraception available by far, and after it's in, you don't have to think about it again for years and years. There's also a nonhormonal one, made of copper, which is ideal if you want to avoid hormones. Sounds like you've had bad experiences with IUDs, though. But for many, especially in these times when the availability of an abortion is far from certain, they're a really good solution. In fact, if I was in one of the states that's banned or severely limited contraception, I'd consider an IUD to be a godsend. If you used one, and condoms/spermicide, and avoided your most fertile days, you'd probably be safe. I may be wrong - I've never needed an IUD so haven't looked into it - but I don't think most people using them are putting their health at risk...same as the Pill. For some, it doesn't work out, but the Pill has saved millions and millions of unwanted pregnancies being inflicted on women and most don't have ill effects from it, although some do of course. Not everything is going to suit everyone. I wouldn't want anyone to read your post and be put off getting an IUD, which seem to me a sorely-needed option in these times. Most women use them with no problems.

I'm just imagining aloud what I would do if I was a younger woman living in one of those places, and if it was absolutely imperative that I not get pregnant - like if I was single, or at college, or whatever.
 
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Jambalaya said:
Oh, Ok. It's just that I've heard good things about them and most of my friends' daughters seem to have them these days. Supposedly they're the most reliable form of contraception available by far, and after it's in, you don't have to think about it again for years and years. There's also a nonhormonal one, made of copper, which is ideal if you want to avoid hormones. Sounds like you've had bad experiences with IUDs, though. But for many, especially in these times when the availability of an abortion is far from certain, they're a really good solution. In fact, if I was in one of the states that's banned or severely limited contraception, I'd consider an IUD to be a godsend. If you used one, and condoms/spermicide, and avoided your most fertile days, you'd probably be safe. I may be wrong - I've never needed an IUD so haven't looked into it - but I don't think most people using them are putting their health at risk...same as the Pill. For some, it doesn't work out, but the Pill has saved millions and millions of unwanted pregnancies being inflicted on women and most don't have ill effects from it, although some do of course. Not everything is going to suit everyone. I wouldn't want anyone to read your post and be put off getting an IUD, which seem to me a sorely-needed option in these times. Most women use them with no problems.

I'm just imagining aloud what I would do if I was a younger woman living in one of those places, and if it was absolutely imperative that I not get pregnant - like if I was single, or at college, or whatever.
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I’ve never used an IUD. The copper ones are not good either. Can mess up your copper balance. Cause issues with copper dysregulation among other things. If you’re interested do some research but my recommendation is no to IUDs in general. We shouldn’t have to resort to risky birth control methods to appease some authoritarian government.
 
My mother strongly discouraged me from IUD. It was just endless problems and pain.
 
@chrono and @missy My point is that IUDs work very well for many thousands of women, so I wouldn't want to scare away anyone reading this who needs contraception, especially as the IUD is famously reliable. And in these times, we REALLY need reliable contraception, so I don't think it's helpful to scare people away from IUDS. My doctor is amazing - Harvard-trained and top in her field of gynecology - and I don't think she would offer IUDs if they were so terrible. Everyone I know who has one has got on with them just fine. It's a common method of contraception that works for the vast majority, so I wouldn't classify it as risky. Same with the Pill - works like a charm for the vast majority of women, but some say that it was terrible for them. I'm not invalidating your experiences, I'm making the point that they're not typical. They would be a great answer to the problem for many people now living in states where you can't get an abortion.
 
Just to throw this out there, I have more than a few friends who have had problems with IUDs. Had them come out, bleeding and implantation into the uterus with emergency removal, etc. I couldn't get past that there's no pain relief for getting it put in or taken out. I took the route of nexplanon for birth control. I was fully numbed for insertion (into my arm) and removal, I could touch my arm and know it was in the right place, etc. I used it successfully for over a decade with two children being conceived and born only when I chose to take it out. It's a great option to consider if the idea of an IUD does not work for you.
 
All anecdotal, but I absolutely love my IUD, and have actually never even had a pregnancy scare. I don't think they should be ruled out entirely as they are life savers for millions of women.
 
Interesting how a life-preventer is a life-saver. :think:
 
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