Obama''s Speech....

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/4/2008 9:41:46 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Moon, I just wanted you to know that you''re my hero.

I think that you''ve been able to spell out your beliefs for everyone else here, and after spending an hour catching up on this thread, I understand your frustration. All the points you''ve made, you''ve backed up with article after article. While you''ve been giving out all these articles, almost every question you have asked of the contradicting opinions here has resulting in a lot of opinions, but hardly a source for these opinions. And I''m talking about opinions that we can share, articles, youtube videos, whatever. After reading all of this I too was searching for answers to the questions you were asking, and I too, do not feel that they were answered in kind to how you answered the questions they asked of you. That saddens me.


I want to say though that I don''t find your suggestions of taking a African American history class was offensive, on the contrary I thought, I should do that some day. And when diamondfan mentioned class on Jewish history and the Holocaust, I nodded to myself again and thought, well I''ll be in school for another 2 years after I''m done with my degree, thanks guys.

But my point in saying this is that ANYONE that rejects the idea of opening themselves up to absorbing more information is promoting ignorance. Any education is better than no education. I''m not trying to attack anyone here, trust me on this, but it''s become a subject that I feel strongly about. The other day in my Social Control class (totally fascinating and taught by a guy who is half Moroccan and half Spanish-from Spain- who looks Middle Eastern- and the things he''s gone through because of how he looks...

Not to even get into his religion-Islamic) my teacher had us watch ''Jesus Camp''. I don''t mean to insult anyone but it was horrifying for me to watch. It''s about a Evangelical/Fundamentalist camp for children and it reminded me of my own religious upbringing (Catholic sunday school) but on steroids. Now as an agnostic, it was incredibly hard for me to watch, but completely necessary to know more about these people-what they believe, how they live and how they are educated. ANY education is good education in my eyes.


For the record:

I''m a white 25 year old female college student (BA in Psychology) who has always been a liberal. I registered to vote on my 18th birthday so I could vote against George W. Bush the first time. I find Ron Paul to be a fascinating individual and wish everyone would give him more respect. McCain is someone who won''t make it into the Oval Office, not just because of his Republican backing but because of his age. He''s very out of touch with reality and the young vote. He is also too close to the Bush presidency, and I really think he has no idea that the Republicans have put him up there to fail. An interesting note: from a friend who has been a nurse for the past 40 years, she says that he''ll be lucky to make it into his second year as president because he''s showing early signs of having a major stroke. I think I should just copy Widget''s post for the rest of mine:

Freke, thanks so much for your post! It means a lot to know I not the only one. Also, I agree with you about education. It''s always best to learn as much as you can about the opposing side in order to either understand and if necessary, to properly criticize.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/5/2008 6:22:14 PM
Author: ladypirate


All I can say to this post (as well as to pretty much everything Moon has said this entire thread) is: DITTO!!!

Also, they''re trying to get McCain to release his medical records...should be interesting.

Thanks ladypirate. BTW your avatar pic is hilarious! I have one almost exactly like it from a few St. Pattys ago except I was wearing a clover sticker on my cheek.

Oh yeah and McCain. I''ve been saying for a while, the man is too old. We''ll be stuck with his VP!!!

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 4/4/2008 8:44:53 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 11:42:50 PM

Author: SarahLovesJS

This probably won''t sound very articulate, so I am sorry ahead of time. I''ve tried to make myself avoid this thread, but I can''t stop reading it anyway. I guess I just end up feeling confused because I can''t ever understand what it feels like to be a non-white person in America. When I look around, I see class issues and not race issues. I guess that''s a product of people I came in contact with growing up and living in a middle class area. The people I knew without money were both white and black. I knew equal numbers of both. There are more minorities in poverty as far as I know (I believe statistics show that so no need to link me to articles or statistics), but I just look at all of poverty and not color.

I think African-American kids in inner city schools with poor educations are just as abandoned by the system as rural white kids with poor educations. I guess I look at things as we need to help people in the lower financial classes of society, not just we need to help a certain race. But, that''s just me.



ETA: I am sorry if I offend anyone, starting to regret posting haha, but I won''t remove it that''d probably be rude.

It is a class issue. I believe it was movie zombie who said we need to get the race part out of the way so we can focus on the real problem which is class. The part that people don''t understand is that statistically, more non-white people are in poverty with access to poor educations. In the case with black people, it has to do with past discrimination which gave white people ahead start in the game. But of course, people of the day, that feel as if they have nothing to do with the past, do not understand why programs were created to help black people catch up. The criminal justice system is another problem that no one really talks about. The way the laws are on the books now, a black person has a much higher chance of going to jail than a white person. Example: higher penalties for crack possession (a poor drug more likely to be found in black neighborhoods) than for cocaine possession (more likely to be found among white, even wealthy white neighborhoods).

Just wanted to say thanks for your reply, sorry it took me so long to get back here to thank you.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/5/2008 8:17:34 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/5/2008 6:22:14 PM

Author: ladypirate



All I can say to this post (as well as to pretty much everything Moon has said this entire thread) is: DITTO!!!

Also, they''re trying to get McCain to release his medical records...should be interesting.

Thanks ladypirate. BTW your avatar pic is hilarious! I have one almost exactly like it from a few St. Pattys ago except I was wearing a clover sticker on my cheek.


Oh yeah and McCain. I''ve been saying for a while, the man is too old. We''ll be stuck with his VP!!!

LOL--thanks for the compliment on my avatar. Sorry I changed it before I saw it! Gotta love St. Paddy''s day--my heritage is very Irish, so I''ve got to represent.

I don''t know if you watch Real Time with Bill Maher, but he had a gag going for a while that every time McCain''s name was mentioned, he''d go "He''s OLD!" There was also one of the "New Rules" referencing him: "Putting older, sicker people on the podium with you doesn’t make you look young and vibrant. It makes you look like the leader of a zombie army. John McCain took the stage Tuesday night with what I’m pretty sure was the 1926 Chicago Cubs. I’m not saying these guys are old, but at the after party, they made the Crypt Keeper sit at the children’s table." I love that show so much.

 

[diamondfan]

Bill Maher made a joke that who do you want to get that phone call about an issue at 3 am? Well, he said McCain would be up anyway so it might be good! Not being a man I guess it is a prostate up at night to pee joke, but I thought it was hysterical.

I think McCain''s choice of VP will be critical for him to have a shot, because I think he will not likely get the young vote in big numbers at all.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/5/2008 11:16:49 PM
Author: diamondfan
Bill Maher made a joke that who do you want to get that phone call about an issue at 3 am? Well, he said McCain would be up anyway so it might be good! Not being a man I guess it is a prostate up at night to pee joke, but I thought it was hysterical.


I think McCain's choice of VP will be critical for him to have a shot, because I think he will not likely get the young vote in big numbers at all.

Hee! After Clinton's whole "sniper fire in bosnia" snafu, which she claims was because she was sleep deprived, someone on Maher's show said that since everyone is sleep deprived at 3AM, she really shouldn't be the one answering the phone! She'd be misspeaking all over the place.

 

[FrekeChild]

Hee hee hee...You guys are cracking me up!!!

 

[diamondfan]

LP, but remember her add with the little girl and the phone ringing?! I am an insomniac! I will be up too! But admit my decision making skills can be stretched thin at that hour.

I am still undecided to a certain degree, but I hate seeing HC and BO keep fighting in the less proper way. This IS a fight to the nomination on a certain level, but there are ways to do it. Most political campaigns do degerate when things are close. I have seen this so much as we all have, it can be pretty nasty. I could never imagine running and having them comb through your life looking for every misdeed and boo boo you made. Uggh. Not sure many of us would come through with flying colors. And some things, who cares? Give me real stuff that matters if this person becomes President. Not that you stole a pack of gum from the dime store in second grade.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/5/2008 10:54:23 PM
Author: ladypirate

LOL--thanks for the compliment on my avatar. Sorry I changed it before I saw it! Gotta love St. Paddy's day--my heritage is very Irish, so I've got to represent.

It's a good thing I think your new one is cute, otherwise I'd be really upset!

I don't know if you watch Real Time with Bill Maher, but he had a gag going for a while that every time McCain's name was mentioned, he'd go 'He's OLD!' There was also one of the 'New Rules' referencing him: 'Putting older, sicker people on the podium with you doesn’t make you look young and vibrant. It makes you look like the leader of a zombie army. John McCain took the stage Tuesday night with what I’m pretty sure was the 1926 Chicago Cubs. I’m not saying these guys are old, but at the after party, they made the Crypt Keeper sit at the children’s table.' I love that show so much.

LMAO!!!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/5/2008 11:36:48 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 4/5/2008 11:16:49 PM

Author: diamondfan

Bill Maher made a joke that who do you want to get that phone call about an issue at 3 am? Well, he said McCain would be up anyway so it might be good! Not being a man I guess it is a prostate up at night to pee joke, but I thought it was hysterical.



I think McCain's choice of VP will be critical for him to have a shot, because I think he will not likely get the young vote in big numbers at all.

Hee! After Clinton's whole 'sniper fire in bosnia' snafu, which she claims was because she was sleep deprived, someone on Maher's show said that since everyone is sleep deprived at 3AM, she really shouldn't be the one answering the phone! She'd be misspeaking all over the place.

Apparently, she just got caught in another lie. That woman and her husband are so despicable to me. They will use whomever and whatever to give them credibility and power.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/Story?id=4597361&page=2

 

[movie zombie]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/01/jesse-ventura-unloads-th_n_94565.html

see the 2nd one down in which jesse ventura gives his opinion on the three leading contenders.

movie zombie

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 4/6/2008 3:44:09 PM
Author: movie zombie
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/01/jesse-ventura-unloads-th_n_94565.html


see the 2nd one down in which jesse ventura gives his opinion on the three leading contenders.


movie zombie

Thanks for posting that MZ.
Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Widget,

Thank you for the post regarding why you support Obama.

Thank you, too, Moonwater, for the link regarding the same. I have not yet looked it over entirely, but will.

I too agree that it will be very interesting to see who people end up choosing as running mates.

Anyone think it''ll be Obama and Clinton rolling together, when the time comes? Who knows what McCain will do. I''m not sure who he could pick to make himself look any better, actually.

Someone (I can''t remember who now, since I had so much catching up to do) had asked about patriotism and relation to the flag. I don''t think a person has to wear red, white and blue to be patriotic, or that a person needs to exhibit patriotism at all to be a good leader. That''s silly. However, I do think that a leader of our country should have the respect to participate in the ways our country salutes. Does it mean someone who doesn''t do this (or doesn''t always do this, whatever the case may be) is a not capable of being a leader, or even a good leader? No, of course not. Still, I think that with our country is right now (and let''s admit it, there has been a lot of strife here lately), our country would benefit in the morale department by having someone step up who is proud of the place where he or she lives and one way to show and demonstrate that is by getting involved in the "patriotism" of this country. Even with all the issues going on in this country, we still have reasons to be glad and proud to live here. Or at least I do. I''d like to think all of us think that way, but I''m not speaking for everyone by any means.

 

[diamondfan]

Fisher, Obama if he wins the nomination will be very unlikely to pick her. Hillary might be willing to pick him but doubt he would view that. Though I think he has it sown up. On the other hand, our governor Rendell had mentioned it as a thought of the two of them. I saw Obama in Mississippi or Missouri or an M state and he was railing against the frontrunner being told that he could be second on the ticket. I do get that as he is in the lead it is a bit much to be talking about him being VP...let''s see who wins the nomination first!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/6/2008 4:45:43 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Someone (I can't remember who now, since I had so much catching up to do) had asked about patriotism and relation to the flag. I don't think a person has to wear red, white and blue to be patriotic, or that a person needs to exhibit patriotism at all to be a good leader. That's silly. However, I do think that a leader of our country should have the respect to participate in the ways our country salutes. Does it mean someone who doesn't do this (or doesn't always do this, whatever the case may be) is a not capable of being a leader, or even a good leader? No, of course not. Still, I think that with our country is right now (and let's admit it, there has been a lot of strife here lately), our country would benefit in the morale department by having someone step up who is proud of the place where he or she lives and one way to show and demonstrate that is by getting involved in the 'patriotism' of this country. Even with all the issues going on in this country, we still have reasons to be glad and proud to live here. Or at least I do. I'd like to think all of us think that way, but I'm not speaking for everyone by any means.

Ok, here I am asking questions again. What is it that Obama does which makes you believe he has no respect for the ways our country salutes? He does the pledge of allegiance and sings the national anthem. Isn't that how we salute? Please read from beginning to end, and view the video as well: http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_is_a_patriot.php

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 4/4/2008 7:43:55 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/4/2008 7:23:17 PM

Also, I really love hearing about your experience as a bi-racial child. My FF thinks I'm ridiculous because he doesn't have any worry, but when we do decide to have children (assuming all goes well and we conceive) they will be bi-racial. I'm already pre-worrying about the little gal/guy. At the same time, I see the world changing on such a large scale that maybe by the time they are school age they won't face the same problems I did, or my parents generation did, or my grandparents etc etc. America appears more to me now like a melting pot than it did only a few decades ago.

Hey Moon,
Being bi-racial definitely has it's positives, as you are an "ethnic in disguise." MWAH Ha HA!

Some people think I look Latina, some think I look all Asian, some think I look part Black. Depending on what racial/ethnic group I'm around, I get to hear all sorts of racial remarks. For example, when I was in elementary school, a group of Caucasian girls were saying terrible things about Mexicans specifically. They got quiet when one nudged another and said "shhh, Coati's over there." Then, the ringleader said, "We don't mean you, Coati, we are talking about the other Mexicans." I said something to the effect of, "I'm not Mexican, I'm Asian, and you're very rude."

In the South and in the Midwest, wherever I went, people would analyze my features. They just couldn't get it. I finally decided to move to Los Angeles, because I wanted more diversity. When I first drove into the city, I saw my first interracial couple billboard--this was very exciting for me! My features don't get analyzed as much here, as this city is teeming with mixed race Asians. Now, I have been deemed the general term, "exotic."

I'm 5'10" and I still get the "you're tall for an Asian!" or the "wow, you have eyelashes! Most Asians don't!" sort of ridiculousness. Harmless, but really annoying!

I love to read books and see films where people "disguise" themselves as other races/ethnicities. Like the book "Black Like Me"--read that in junior high. Or, the film "The Gentleman's Agreement," where a Gentile journalist poses as a Jew to see how deplorably they are treated--released in 1948. Another good one is, "My Enemy, My Self," by Yoram Binur--non fiction--an Israeli journalist poses as a Palestinian Arab to experience the hostility and discrimination.

The topic is fascinating and never ending.

It's cool that you live in the gay area in your city. I've always felt accepted in gay communities. I think that your future tot will be lucky to be bi-racial, because he/she will get to view the world with two different lenses. And nowadays, so many kids are bi-racial. Hopefully your future child won't have to face the things you did. This country is definitely more of a melting pot. My street in Los Angeles can attest to that. A gay Black man lives in the house across the street. A gay couple lives two houses down from ours. Across the street from them is a Latina attorney and her husband. Two down from them is a Japanese family. I love California!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/6/2008 5:46:58 PM
Author: coatimundi

Hey Moon,

Being bi-racial definitely has it''s positives, as you are an ''ethnic in disguise.'' MWAH Ha HA!

Ok, this comment seriously had me laughing out loud!

Some people think I look Latina, some think I look all Asian, some think I look part Black. Depending on what racial/ethnic group I''m around, I get to hear all sorts of racial remarks. For example, when I was in elementary school, a group of Caucasian girls were saying terrible things about Mexicans specifically. They got quiet when one nudged another and said ''shhh, Coati''s over there.'' Then, the ringleader said, ''We don''t mean you, Coati, we are talking about the other Mexicans.'' I said something to the effect of, ''I''m not Mexican, I''m Asian, and you''re very rude.''

Isn''t that the worse?!?! It''s like, gee thanks for making me the exception to the rule, you [insert me calling someone a bad name]. Grrr

Speaking of people not being able to figure out what race you are. It reminds me of an old co-worker. It became a running joke with her job (an actual joke, these where her friends), because they knew she got this a lot. Whenever a new person would show up, they would tell them to ask if she was Puerto Rican. They knew it would piss her off because she''s actually black and Italian but it''s hard to pinpoint that specifically. That must annoy her to no end.

In the South and in the Midwest, wherever I went, people would analyze my features. They just couldn''t get it. I finally decided to move to Los Angeles, because I wanted more diversity. When I first drove into the city, I saw my first interracial couple billboard--this was very exciting for me! My features don''t get analyzed as much here, as this city is teeming with mixed race Asians. Now, I have been deemed the general term, ''exotic.''

I''m 5''10'' and I still get the ''you''re tall for an Asian!'' or the ''wow, you have eyelashes! Most Asians don''t!'' sort of ridiculousness. Harmless, but really annoying!

People tend to be intrigued by people that look differently or are doing something differently than they would. It''s too bad they don''t realize how rude they''re being in the process. I''m telling you, you''re making me want to move to LA just so my relationship doesn''t seem as unusual. It''s funny because you do see lots of interracial couple yet people still react as if it''s uncommon. I mean, I see little bi-racial babies all the time!! Someone has to be having them!

I love to read books and see films where people ''disguise'' themselves as other races/ethnicities. Like the book ''Black Like Me''--read that in junior high. Or, the film ''The Gentleman''s Agreement,'' where a Gentile journalist poses as a Jew to see how deplorably they are treated--released in 1948. Another good one is, ''My Enemy, My Self,'' by Yoram Binur--non fiction--an Israeli journalist poses as a Palestinian Arab to experience the hostility and discrimination.

You just gave me a list of stuff to do!! My FF will be really into this as well. He has exposed me to a lot of things I never would have sought out on my own, at least not this soon. He pretty much only watches independent films or documentaries. I swear, everything has subtitles!! You should see the books on his shelf as well. All extremely dense topics. Hell, yesterday he bought "The Origins of Totalitarianism" by Hannah Arendt. He probably knows more about Hitler/Nazi Germany and Stalin/Soviet Communism than anyone would care to know (hence the recent purchase).

There is a film we saw a few years back which is utterly heartbreaking and it includes disguising yourself as something you are not, in addition to getting an inside view of the Taliban. It''s called Osama. It''s not about bin Laden, but about a young Afghan girl. I linked to the plot in the name. I cried with this one.

It''s cool that you live in the gay area in your city. I''ve always felt accepted in gay communities. I think that your future tot will be lucky to be bi-racial, because he/she will get to view the world with two different lenses. And nowadays, so many kids are bi-racial. Hopefully your future child won''t have to face the things you did. This country is definitely more of a melting pot. My street in Los Angeles can attest to that. A gay Black man lives in the house across the street. A gay couple lives two houses down from ours. Across the street from them is a Latina attorney and her husband. Two down from them is a Japanese family. I love California!

Yeah, you''re right. I shouldn''t worry. The world is definitely changing. And if I have any problems, I''ll move to LA! lol! But seriously, thanks for your comments. I really am hoping my kid gets the best of both of us from me and his/her dad. We''re not only different races but we grew up in completely different ways. We joke sometimes, wondering how we ended up together, but I think we''re proof that people don''t have to be the same color or live the same experience to understand another person''s point of view.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/22/2008 8:33:37 AM
Author: AGBF


I am not going to discuss religion here, but will state for the record that my husband''s family is in Israel and Italy. My great-nephew, who now lives in Boston and is like a son to me, grew up in Israel and served in the Israeli army before coming here. His parents and sister still live in Israel, in fact in Sderot, where rocket attacks from Gaza had become the norm (prior to the recent Israeli counter-attack) since Hamas took power there.

I also want to say that I support Obama and that I think that if he is president we have just as much chance for peace between Israel and its neighbors as if any of the other candidates is elected. As an American, Israel is only one of my many foreign policy concerns, however. I am also very concerned about Iraq and the huge loss of life there. It is clear to me that Obama has had the correct position on Iraq and al Qaeda: do not confuse the attackers of 9/11 who are religious extremists of Saudi Arabian origin trained in Afghanistan with the secular regime of Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

Obama has said it: by invading Iraq (which had no ties to the religious extremists who attacked the United States on 9/11), we took the focus off Afghanistan, the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden (who were tied to those attacks). Why? Why have so many innocent Iraqis had to die for five long years? Why have so many American soldiers been killed or maimed for life in Iraq? Why Is the United States so cozy with Saudi Arabia?

I am angry with President Bush, who is cozy with Saudi Arabia-our attacker on 9/11 and who let Osama bin Laden go free-not with Senator Obama.

Deborah

I''ve been reading this thread with great interest. I have so many things I''d like to say, but I only have a few minutes before I must rush to work.

Deborah, please read this for one answer to your question.

http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html

The reasons trotted out to the public are always God, America, apple pie, and shadowy threats to "FREEDOM"!! The reality is, as usual, much more complex. The public support BUsh, et al needed to go to war was NOT going to be obtained by telling the American people that the real reasons are economic power. And ego. So we must be dragged along with fear and patriotism.

"Naturally the common people don''t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany for that matter. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country." (and it worked on the American people - again.)
Hermann Goering

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/6/2008 5:02:19 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/6/2008 4:45:43 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Someone (I can''t remember who now, since I had so much catching up to do) had asked about patriotism and relation to the flag. I don''t think a person has to wear red, white and blue to be patriotic, or that a person needs to exhibit patriotism at all to be a good leader. That''s silly. However, I do think that a leader of our country should have the respect to participate in the ways our country salutes. Does it mean someone who doesn''t do this (or doesn''t always do this, whatever the case may be) is a not capable of being a leader, or even a good leader? No, of course not. Still, I think that with our country is right now (and let''s admit it, there has been a lot of strife here lately), our country would benefit in the morale department by having someone step up who is proud of the place where he or she lives and one way to show and demonstrate that is by getting involved in the ''patriotism'' of this country. Even with all the issues going on in this country, we still have reasons to be glad and proud to live here. Or at least I do. I''d like to think all of us think that way, but I''m not speaking for everyone by any means.

Ok, here I am asking questions again. What is it that Obama does which makes you believe he has no respect for the ways our country salutes? He does the pledge of allegiance and sings the national anthem. Isn''t that how we salute? Please read from beginning to end, and view the video as well: http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_is_a_patriot.php

Like I''ve said before, I''m not saying he doesn''t salute, or never salutes, but for me (and if not for anyone else, that''s fine), seeing a leader of the country sort of flounder between showing pride in the country and not is a turn off.

Of course there are many other, perhaps more serious, matters involved in what should be considered in determining who you plan to support in the election process.

For me, seeing a candidate who has strong beliefs that are solidly held to, who shows patriotism in the "traditional" ways (or in non-traditional ways, but commonly understood ways, would work, too), who makes his or her views and platform clearly defined, and who aligns with the majority of how I stand on issues is what matters.

"Saluting" or what have you is merely a piece of the whole.

 

[MoonWater]

Not sure about this guy''s opinion of Farrakhan but I must say, FINALLY someone properly understanding Martin Luther King, Jr. I''m not sure how the heck America has painted him as Mr. Lovey Dovey Peace guy. And one other thing, how many Christians think the Christian Bible was all about love? Er...no!

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?videoId=1fd1c0cf-5c80-4d75-996f-bd53b2461ae0&sMPlaylistID

Oh, and in case I haven''t said this...I HATE FOX NEWS.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/9/2008 8:02:18 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/6/2008 5:02:19 PM

Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/6/2008 4:45:43 PM

Author: fisherofmengirly


Someone (I can''t remember who now, since I had so much catching up to do) had asked about patriotism and relation to the flag. I don''t think a person has to wear red, white and blue to be patriotic, or that a person needs to exhibit patriotism at all to be a good leader. That''s silly. However, I do think that a leader of our country should have the respect to participate in the ways our country salutes. Does it mean someone who doesn''t do this (or doesn''t always do this, whatever the case may be) is a not capable of being a leader, or even a good leader? No, of course not. Still, I think that with our country is right now (and let''s admit it, there has been a lot of strife here lately), our country would benefit in the morale department by having someone step up who is proud of the place where he or she lives and one way to show and demonstrate that is by getting involved in the ''patriotism'' of this country. Even with all the issues going on in this country, we still have reasons to be glad and proud to live here. Or at least I do. I''d like to think all of us think that way, but I''m not speaking for everyone by any means.

Ok, here I am asking questions again. What is it that Obama does which makes you believe he has no respect for the ways our country salutes? He does the pledge of allegiance and sings the national anthem. Isn''t that how we salute? Please read from beginning to end, and view the video as well: http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_is_a_patriot.php

Like I''ve said before, I''m not saying he doesn''t salute, or never salutes, but for me (and if not for anyone else, that''s fine), seeing a leader of the country sort of flounder between showing pride in the country and not is a turn off.


Of course there are many other, perhaps more serious, matters involved in what should be considered in determining who you plan to support in the election process.


For me, seeing a candidate who has strong beliefs that are solidly held to, who shows patriotism in the ''traditional'' ways (or in non-traditional ways, but commonly understood ways, would work, too), who makes his or her views and platform clearly defined, and who aligns with the majority of how I stand on issues is what matters.


''Saluting'' or what have you is merely a piece of the whole.

In other words, he couldn''t possibly do anything to please you.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/8/2008 8:36:34 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 3/22/2008 8:33:37 AM

Author: AGBF



I am not going to discuss religion here, but will state for the record that my husband''s family is in Israel and Italy. My great-nephew, who now lives in Boston and is like a son to me, grew up in Israel and served in the Israeli army before coming here. His parents and sister still live in Israel, in fact in Sderot, where rocket attacks from Gaza had become the norm (prior to the recent Israeli counter-attack) since Hamas took power there.


I also want to say that I support Obama and that I think that if he is president we have just as much chance for peace between Israel and its neighbors as if any of the other candidates is elected. As an American, Israel is only one of my many foreign policy concerns, however. I am also very concerned about Iraq and the huge loss of life there. It is clear to me that Obama has had the correct position on Iraq and al Qaeda: do not confuse the attackers of 9/11 who are religious extremists of Saudi Arabian origin trained in Afghanistan with the secular regime of Saddam Hussein of Iraq.


Obama has said it: by invading Iraq (which had no ties to the religious extremists who attacked the United States on 9/11), we took the focus off Afghanistan, the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden (who were tied to those attacks). Why? Why have so many innocent Iraqis had to die for five long years? Why have so many American soldiers been killed or maimed for life in Iraq? Why Is the United States so cozy with Saudi Arabia?



I am angry with President Bush, who is cozy with Saudi Arabia-our attacker on 9/11 and who let Osama bin Laden go free-not with Senator Obama.


Deborah

I''ve been reading this thread with great interest. I have so many things I''d like to say, but I only have a few minutes before I must rush to work.


Deborah, please read this for one answer to your question.



http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html


The reasons trotted out to the public are always God, America, apple pie, and shadowy threats to ''FREEDOM''!! The reality is, as usual, much more complex. The public support BUsh, et al needed to go to war was NOT going to be obtained by telling the American people that the real reasons are economic power. And ego. So we must be dragged along with fear and patriotism.


''Naturally the common people don''t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany for that matter. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.'' (and it worked on the American people - again.)

Hermann Goering

Ain''t that the truth! The best way to manipulate people is to pander to their pride and arrogance.

 

[MoonWater]

And in case anyone actually wants to read the God Damn America sermon, Anderson Cooper did a piece:
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-wright%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cgod-damn-america%E2%80%9D-sermon/

and Cooper also did a piece on the 9/11 sermon:
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

 

[ksinger]

"The best way to manipulate people is to pander to their pride and arrogance."

Only a small disagreement there - not pride or arrogance, but FEAR. Stoke the fear. That''s what''s been going on. Every time Bush gets in front of a camera, it''s about fear: THEY are going to hurt us, bomb us, infect us....so...hand over your civil liberties and privacy...oh heck...we''ll just TAKE them, all for your own good, mind. It''s fascism. Just wearing a different face.

The reason I support Obama is I see him as the ONLY candidate likely to restore the constitutional balances and actually hand BACK some of the powers that this administration has collected in its mission to create a unitary executive that is above the law. First and foremost to me is the health of the underpinnings of our form of government. The rest will follow as it will. Not that the economy or the war are to be ignored, but without the rule of law being upheld at the highest levels, what we do at the lower ones will be pretty irrelevant.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/10/2008 8:26:39 AM
Author: ksinger
'The best way to manipulate people is to pander to their pride and arrogance.'


Only a small disagreement there - not pride or arrogance, but FEAR. Stoke the fear. That's what's been going on. Every time Bush gets in front of a camera, it's about fear: THEY are going to hurt us, bomb us, infect us....so...hand over your civil liberties and privacy...oh heck...we'll just TAKE them, all for your own good, mind. It's fascism. Just wearing a different face.


The reason I support Obama is I see him as the ONLY candidate likely to restore the constitutional balances and actually hand BACK some of the powers that this administration has collected in its mission to create a unitary executive that is above the law. First and foremost to me is the health of the underpinnings of our form of government. The rest will follow as it will. Not that the economy or the war are to be ignored, but without the rule of law being upheld at the highest levels, what we do at the lower ones will be pretty irrelevant.

Yeah, later I thought of editing that post because I wanted to add fear and vanity. I think those are the four essential components. It works in most situations, not just when it comes to controlling a country. It's a successful way to do business!!

I completely agree with you on your second point.

ps. you reminded me of that one quote, there are different variations and it's usually attributed to Benjamin Franklin, though I'm not sure it's correct: "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."

 

[smitcompton]

Hi All,
I read thru all the posts and the thought that lingered was that you are all coming from different sides of these issues. What a microcosim of polarization. I want to make a few comments for your consideration.
The famous inscription of "Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free........is on the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of hope for all who came to these shores. People need no concrete plan from anyone to recognize that when they see that Statue welcoming them to America they have a chance their dreams may come true.
Hope for change, when 86% of the country says it is going in the wrong direction, is a powerful antidote. A war that seems to be devoid of reason, money spent without getting value, and an honest human being who did not ask to be catapulted to lead this country out of this mess into the 21st century captures the imagination.
Miss Fisherofmengirl- If your name is an indication of your belief system, then you certainly understand hope. It is the foundation of Christianity. Powerful, isn''t it? If you are what I think you are then your understanding of what a church is would allow you to know that a church is much more than the paster. It is a community of believers that a persons is part of and cherishes You would also know that . If my assumption i wrong, please disregard.
Miss Moonwater- In your zeal to enlighten everybody on current events, I think you have missed a few important points on the Constitution. Remember those pilgrims came to America for religious freedom. They wanted to make sure the state did not have any power over them. Everyone in this country has the right of religious freedom. The people that constitute religious bodies have every right to lobby their grievance against the government as well as do corporations, individuals, &unions. What they cannot do is become a politcal arm or organization within the church or religious group. But the Gov.insures that by offering them a tax exempt status. None of them want to lose that.

Our laws have been based on Judeo-Christian teachings, beliefs, morals ect. Thats a fact.

I don''t want a reply. I would respectfully suggest that you tone down your agressiveness. I truly think you will lose Obama supporters.

Thanks
Annette

 

[MoonWater]

LMAO!! Based on your comments, there is no way you read this entire thread. Oh and if an Obama supporter changes their mind over one poster on a message board, they weren't planning to support him anyway. It's pretty darn silly.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/10/2008 12:38:58 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/9/2008 8:02:18 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/6/2008 5:02:19 PM

Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/6/2008 4:45:43 PM

Author: fisherofmengirly


Someone (I can''t remember who now, since I had so much catching up to do) had asked about patriotism and relation to the flag. I don''t think a person has to wear red, white and blue to be patriotic, or that a person needs to exhibit patriotism at all to be a good leader. That''s silly. However, I do think that a leader of our country should have the respect to participate in the ways our country salutes. Does it mean someone who doesn''t do this (or doesn''t always do this, whatever the case may be) is a not capable of being a leader, or even a good leader? No, of course not. Still, I think that with our country is right now (and let''s admit it, there has been a lot of strife here lately), our country would benefit in the morale department by having someone step up who is proud of the place where he or she lives and one way to show and demonstrate that is by getting involved in the ''patriotism'' of this country. Even with all the issues going on in this country, we still have reasons to be glad and proud to live here. Or at least I do. I''d like to think all of us think that way, but I''m not speaking for everyone by any means.

Ok, here I am asking questions again. What is it that Obama does which makes you believe he has no respect for the ways our country salutes? He does the pledge of allegiance and sings the national anthem. Isn''t that how we salute? Please read from beginning to end, and view the video as well: http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_is_a_patriot.php

Like I''ve said before, I''m not saying he doesn''t salute, or never salutes, but for me (and if not for anyone else, that''s fine), seeing a leader of the country sort of flounder between showing pride in the country and not is a turn off.


Of course there are many other, perhaps more serious, matters involved in what should be considered in determining who you plan to support in the election process.


For me, seeing a candidate who has strong beliefs that are solidly held to, who shows patriotism in the ''traditional'' ways (or in non-traditional ways, but commonly understood ways, would work, too), who makes his or her views and platform clearly defined, and who aligns with the majority of how I stand on issues is what matters.


''Saluting'' or what have you is merely a piece of the whole.

In other words, he couldn''t possibly do anything to please you.

I didn''t say that, but if that''s what you take from my comments, okay. I think there are many matters which come into play in choosing a president, and no, Obama doesn''t meet most of them. The "patriotism" thing is not a key factor, but is a factor, none the less.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/10/2008 2:06:53 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All,
I read thru all the posts and the thought that lingered was that you are all coming from different sides of these issues. What a microcosim of polarization. I want to make a few comments for your consideration.
The famous inscription of ''Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free........is on the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of hope for all who came to these shores. People need no concrete plan from anyone to recognize that when they see that Statue welcoming them to America they have a chance their dreams may come true.
Hope for change, when 86% of the country says it is going in the wrong direction, is a powerful antidote. A war that seems to be devoid of reason, money spent without getting value, and an honest human being who did not ask to be catapulted to lead this country out of this mess into the 21st century captures the imagination.
Miss Fisherofmengirl- If your name is an indication of your belief system, then you certainly understand hope. It is the foundation of Christianity. Powerful, isn''t it? If you are what I think you are then your understanding of what a church is would allow you to know that a church is much more than the paster. It is a community of believers that a persons is part of and cherishes You would also know that . If my assumption i wrong, please disregard.
Miss Moonwater- In your zeal to enlighten everybody on current events, I think you have missed a few important points on the Constitution. Remember those pilgrims came to America for religious freedom. They wanted to make sure the state did not have any power over them. Everyone in this country has the right of religious freedom. The people that constitute religious bodies have every right to lobby their grievance against the government as well as do corporations, individuals, &unions. What they cannot do is become a politcal arm or organization within the church or religious group. But the Gov.insures that by offering them a tax exempt status. None of them want to lose that.

Our laws have been based on Judeo-Christian teachings, beliefs, morals ect. Thats a fact.

I don''t want a reply. I would respectfully suggest that you tone down your agressiveness. I truly think you will lose Obama supporters.

Thanks
Annette

Yes, a church is made of a community with a core of belief that is the same, if not very similar, of course. However, it is the pastor who leads and directs that community. And while I don''t always agree with my pastor on every single issue, when there is a serious concern amoung the "community," actions are taken to fix those issues, or the "community" has an option to move to a new community that supports and upholds that which is supposed to be taught, exhalted, and lived by the "community," including the pastor/priest/preacher/minister leading that community. A church is something that its members are passionate about, no doubt.

Hope is indeed powerful. But hope must come from something. And hope that has no backing is no hope at all. It''s merely a desire, with no foundation. I think our country is in desperate need of "hope" and calling on change is powerful, too. I would like some changes to occur, no doubt. I just would like to have a candidate out there who not only has a hope for change, for a better future, but who can also state what that hope is based on, where it goes from here...

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/10/2008 2:06:53 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All,
I read thru all the posts and the thought that lingered was that you are all coming from different sides of these issues. What a microcosim of polarization. I want to make a few comments for your consideration.
The famous inscription of ''Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free........is on the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of hope for all who came to these shores. People need no concrete plan from anyone to recognize that when they see that Statue welcoming them to America they have a chance their dreams may come true.
Hope for change, when 86% of the country says it is going in the wrong direction, is a powerful antidote. A war that seems to be devoid of reason, money spent without getting value, and an honest human being who did not ask to be catapulted to lead this country out of this mess into the 21st century captures the imagination.
Miss Fisherofmengirl- If your name is an indication of your belief system, then you certainly understand hope. It is the foundation of Christianity. Powerful, isn''t it? If you are what I think you are then your understanding of what a church is would allow you to know that a church is much more than the paster. It is a community of believers that a persons is part of and cherishes You would also know that . If my assumption i wrong, please disregard.
Miss Moonwater- In your zeal to enlighten everybody on current events, I think you have missed a few important points on the Constitution. Remember those pilgrims came to America for religious freedom. They wanted to make sure the state did not have any power over them. Everyone in this country has the right of religious freedom. The people that constitute religious bodies have every right to lobby their grievance against the government as well as do corporations, individuals, &unions. What they cannot do is become a politcal arm or organization within the church or religious group. But the Gov.insures that by offering them a tax exempt status. None of them want to lose that.

Our laws have been based on Judeo-Christian teachings, beliefs, morals ect. Thats a fact.

I don''t want a reply. I would respectfully suggest that you tone down your agressiveness. I truly think you will lose Obama supporters.

Thanks
Annette

Remember those pilgrims came to America for religious freedom.

No, the pilgrims were separatists. They came to have the freedom to be as intolerant as THEY wanted, in their own unique way. The Puritans were even worse, and immediately set up an oppressive theocracy. Apparently religious freedom does not necessarily breed tolerance.

Everyone in this country has the right of religious freedom. To a point yes, but as anyone here who is not a Christian can tell you, there''s freedom and then there''s freedom. In any case, relgious freedom for OTHERS not part of your "group" is certainly not a legacy of our Pilgrim/Puritan forebears you seem to mythologize. Ironically, that religious freedom and tolerance was built in by men who were deists, not Christians in the sense that most think. The most cursory examination of history will show that tolerance is NOT the hallmark of Christianity, no matter how much Christians might like to claim it.

The people that constitute religious bodies have every right to lobby their grievance against the government as well as do corporations, individuals, &unions. Unless of course, "the government" - which is made up of powerful and increasingly lawless individuals, has you declared an enemy combatant, and the writ of habeas corpus is denied to you.

What they cannot do is become a politcal arm or organization within the church or religious group. How about religion becoming the strong arm of the STATE?? Ever consider THAT one?

But the Gov.insures that by offering them a tax exempt status. Pray tell exactly, how tax exempt status "insures" that no part of a church becomes a political arm or organization? You mean the way the government insures that religion is above being buffeted by the political winds when it gives taxpayer $$ to religious organizations for Bush''s "Faith Based Initiative"? And in a recent attempt that sought to challenge the existence of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, our lock-stepping, stacked supreme court, who like this congress marches to the executive drums, ruled that taxpayers do not have the right to challenge the constitutionality of expenditures by the executive branch of the government. !!!! Doing an end run around the constitution and the separation of powers again. What was it I was saying about a unitary executive?
.
In a dissenting opinion, Justice Souter noted:

"Souter went over the qualifications for standing set by previous precedents, and concluded that they were all met in this case, "there is no dispute that taxpayer money in identifiable amounts is funding conferences, and these are alleged to have the purpose of promoting religion. Cf. Doremus v. Board of Ed. of Hawthorne, 342 U. S. 429, 434 (1952) . The taxpayers therefore seek not to ''extend'' Flast ...but merely to apply it. When executive agencies spend identifiable sums of tax money for religious purposes, no less than when Congress authorizes the same thing, taxpayers suffer injury. And once we recognize the injury as sufficient for Article III, there can be no serious question about the other elements of the standing enquiry: the injury is indisputably ''traceable'' to the spending, and ''likely to be redressed by'' an injunction prohibiting it. Allen v. Wright, 468 U. S. 737, 751 (1984)".[10] He also noted that "There will not always be competitors for the funds who would make better plaintiffs (and indeed there appears to be no such competitor here), so after accepting the importance of the injury there is no reason to refuse standing as a prudential matter."[10]

Souter held that removing Executive branch actions concerning Establishment Clause questions from Judicial review was dangerous. He said the majority opinion "points to the separation of powers to explain its distinction between legislative and executive spending decisions...but there is no difference on that point of view between a Judicial Branch review of an executive decision and a judicial evaluation of a congressional one. We owe respect to each of the other branches, no more to the former than to the latter, and no one has suggested that the Establishment Clause lacks applicability to executive uses of money. It would surely violate the Establishment Clause for the Department of Health and Human Services to draw on a general appropriation to build a chapel for weekly church services (no less than if a statute required it), and for good reason: if the Executive could accomplish through the exercise of discretion exactly what Congress cannot do through legislation, Establishment Clause protection would melt away."[10]

Souter disagreed with the majority''s reading of Bowen, saying in that case "we already had found the statute valid on its face before we turned to the taxpayers'' as-applied challenge...so the case cannot be read to hold that taxpayers have standing only to claim that congressional action, but not its implementation, violates the Establishment Clause." Therefore after Bowen, the majority opinion''s "distinction between a ''congressional mandate'' on the one hand and ''executive discretion'' on the other...is at once arbitrary and hard to manage: if the statute itself is constitutional, all complaints must be about the exercise of ''executive discretion,'' so there is no line to be drawn between Bowen and the case before us today."[10]

So basically if congress does it it''s unconstitutional, but when King George does it, it is just peachy.

None of them want to lose that. And is there some sort of religious justification for not wanting to lose tax exempt status, or is it simply the mundane and worldly motivation of greed? To judge by how many ministers nationally and in my neck of the woods, are living quite fat off the tithes of the faithful while passing around voting "guides", and having the church buy up millions of $$ in real estate holdings, I''d say it''s the latter. Bottom line, if you''re getting public funds, you should be paying taxes. Period.

Our laws have been based on Judeo-Christian teachings, beliefs, morals ect. Thats a fact. Please support your assertion with examples. Be sure when ascribing a certain law to a specific Judeo-Christian teaching, belief, moral, etc., that you adequately prove that the teaching, belief, moral, etc. is uniquely Judeo-Christian, i.e - cannot be traced to any culture , any formalized system of thought, or belief system removed from the influence of Judeo-Christian thought, prior to its first clear expression in Judaism or Christianity. Also, please be sure to state the proportion of US laws based on Judeo-Christian teachings, beliefs, morals etc. Extra credit will be given for the number of occurrences of scriptural references in The Constitution.

And yes, you may assume I''m deadly tired of people spewing forth statements of "fact" (read: MYTH) they clearly got in a 3rd grade "history" class, or things they accepted uncritically when trotted forth as Truth by a church leader. People are always trotting out "Judeo-Christian values" like EVERYONE knows what they are...I mean "WE" all agree on this, so no need to define anything, right?