Old European Cut depth question

[AJK1004]

Hello everyone~ I've scoured the forum and other sites to educate myself, but I'm finding it a challenge to get a clear understanding of how the depth and the combination of facets can affect light performance in an OEC/Circular Brilliant. Currently I am holding a 1.75 M VS1 with a table of 56% and depth of 56.9% (GIA report - https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6194993784). I've gone to several local jewelers (Los Angeles area) and have seen other OECs in person for research and comparison. This stone I have looks like it has sharp facets and more sparkle (white) than flashes of brilliance (color), however I am noticing a darkness when I look at it straight on. I've read conflicting info regarding direct sunlight and how it makes a diamond appear more grey but I wasn't sure if the shallow cut could also play a role in this? I also happened to come across an old mine cushion and boy were the flashes of rainbow mesmerizing! I would love to find something similar in an old european cut, but how?

I know there are a few of you that actually prefer shallower stones, and I've been leaning that way because I would like to evenutally place it in a low profile setting. Hopefully someone can help provide some insight on what to look for when it comes to depth in an OEC. I've attached the best photos and videos I could capture with a phone in various lighting.

Thank you for your expertise and advice! I've learned so much from you all, meanwhile my fiance thinks he's lost me to this forum *waves from rabbit hole*

 

[kgizo]

Welcome to PS! There are many OEC and OMC lovers in this rabbit hole so hopefully they will chime in.

It isn’t just depth that matters, table size and crown angles matter too. I found this thread helpful in my search:

OEC trade offs vs MRBs in different light settings

So, my first diamond was an OEC. I just really fell in love with the faceting and the patterns and never even thought to compare it side to side with a MRB. In these threads I tend to see that MRBs have superior light performance and I never really understood what that translates to in terms of...

www.pricescope.com

Your GIA report doesn’t give angles (which is not uncommon so don’t take it as a negative).

How long is the return policy? I would suggest a minimum of 7d to see it in all different lighting. Use a ring holder, not just tweezers to view. If you frequently notice it getting dark that is likely something that will continue to bug you so I would pass. On the flip side, you can’t stick your head or camera super close to a diamond, block most of the light, and expect the facets to reflect the light your head/camera is blocking. Everything is negotiable so if you think this is the one and the only thing holding you back is not knowing the angles you could talk with the vendor about getting a more detailed GIA report.

You mention loving OMC rainbow flashes, but want an OEC. Is the reason the shape? Something else?

 

[evergreen]

Many of the shallower old cuts, mine included (56.7% depth, 57% table, more appropriately called a transitional cut, I'd say!), display somewhat more obstruction than is considered, I don't know, "perfect"? I FREAKING LOVE old cuts of this type. I have seen some get too crazy -- I'm thinking of a ~2ct stone I once saw with a 65% table and something like 55% depth, and it was sadly kinda personality-less, with barely any fire -- but tbh your stone reminds me so much of mine that I also love yours.

I home-made an Idealscope which basically showed there is "too much obstruction" -- and indeed, when you look closely at it, it will look a little dark under the table. But I don't think that represents a particularly real-life viewing scenario, and in real life I love my stone. I hope that's helpful.

The shallower, lower-crowned transitional stones do miss out on some of the fire OECs are known for, but may be better at white light return. It depends on what you love.

 

[maryjane04]

I am an old mine cut lover here... one of the downsides is that a deep stone with a high crown produces the fire that you see but that comes with a smaller face up size. It just depends on your preference

 

[AJK1004]

Welcome to PS! There are many OEC and OMC lovers in this rabbit hole so hopefully they will chime in.

It isn’t just depth that matters, table size and crown angles matter too. I found this thread helpful in my search:

OEC trade offs vs MRBs in different light settings

So, my first diamond was an OEC. I just really fell in love with the faceting and the patterns and never even thought to compare it side to side with a MRB. In these threads I tend to see that MRBs have superior light performance and I never really understood what that translates to in terms of...

www.pricescope.com

Your GIA report doesn’t give angles (which is not uncommon so don’t take it as a negative).

How long is the return policy? I would suggest a minimum of 7d to see it in all different lighting. Use a ring holder, not just tweezers to view. If you frequently notice it getting dark that is likely something that will continue to bug you so I would pass. On the flip side, you can’t stick your head or camera super close to a diamond, block most of the light, and expect the facets to reflect the light your head/camera is blocking. Everything is negotiable so if you think this is the one and the only thing holding you back is not knowing the angles you could talk with the vendor about getting a more detailed GIA report.

You mention loving OMC rainbow flashes, but want an OEC. Is the reason the shape? Something else?

Thank you for the welcome and link That post came up in my search, there's such good info in there!
You're right, it's difficult to really examine the loose diamond without the proper tools due to obstructions. So obviously, I ordered all the gizmos - ring holder, tweezers, etc like any normal obsessed person would do lol
As you mentioned, not having the detailed stats such as angles, I'm kind of flying blind here and can only go by what I see. What I find confusing is that in sunlight it goes quite dark/grey but has decent fire and in inside/indirect light it's really white and flashy. I wasn't sure if what I was witnessing due to the depth, or the shallower crown, or larger than typical table? It's just one of those "I can't put my finger on it" type feeling.
In regards to OEC vs OMC, in my search I've found better quality OECs easier to find. I happened to go to a jeweler to look at settings (wondering if that would help clarify what I was seeing) and they showed me a custom setting for a client's OMC. I never saw one in person and I was so surprised at how it responded compared to my OEC. I had a bit of old stone envy hehe

 

[AJK1004]

Many of the shallower old cuts, mine included (56.7% depth, 57% table, more appropriately called a transitional cut, I'd say!), display somewhat more obstruction than is considered, I don't know, "perfect"? I FREAKING LOVE old cuts of this type. I have seen some get too crazy -- I'm thinking of a ~2ct stone I once saw with a 65% table and something like 55% depth, and it was sadly kinda personality-less, with barely any fire -- but tbh your stone reminds me so much of mine that I also love yours.

I home-made an Idealscope which basically showed there is "too much obstruction" -- and indeed, when you look closely at it, it will look a little dark under the table. But I don't think that represents a particularly real-life viewing scenario, and in real life I love my stone. I hope that's helpful.

The shallower, lower-crowned transitional stones do miss out on some of the fire OECs are known for, but may be better at white light return. It depends on what you love.

Wow thank you! Ok, so I'm not overthinking and what I'm seeing is true - that there is more obstruction than normal (in comparison to the other OEC's I saw in person) due to the dimension of the stone. Your stone sounds very similar (in specs) to mine, do you find yours to go dark as well?
As I mentioned, while there is a good amount of scintillation the shadowing is what got me concerned in the first place. Your last line hit the the nail on the head for me and totally makes sense now.
Btw~ can you share how you made a homemade idealscope? That sounds amazing

 

[AJK1004]

I am an old mine cut lover here... one of the downsides is that a deep stone with a high crown produces the fire that you see but that comes with a smaller face up size. It just depends on your preference

Yes I've seen that first hand and I've still have that stone on the back of my mind. Initially I was looking at a 2.04 K VS1 with a 48% table and 73.3% depth and thought that was too deep It definitely faced up smaller than expected but now that I think about it, it did have more of those warm rainbow flashes

 

[maryjane04]

Yes I've seen that first hand and I've still have that stone on the back of my mind. Initially I was looking at a 2.04 K VS1 with a 48% table and 73.3% depth and thought that was too deep It definitely faced up smaller than expected but now that I think about it, it did have more of those warm rainbow flashes

Hahaha those numbers look sexy to me! That itty bitty table and probably a really high crown!! I guess it depends on what look you prefer. For me I could not give up the chunky facets, the high crown and everything that goes with it. And they are incredibly hard to photograph too!

 

[Tourmaline]

I’ve studied this a lot. I had a diamond with a lot crown, and, though I loved the brilliance, the architecture of the low crown bothered me, and I sold it. I started looking for my holy grail OEC some time ago, and I recently found it. It has a 51% table and a depth of 64.7%. I love it from every angle!

 

[AJK1004]

Hahaha those numbers look sexy to me! That itty bitty table and probably a really high crown!! I guess it depends on what look you prefer. For me I could not give up the chunky facets, the high crown and everything that goes with it. And they are incredibly hard to photograph too!

I went through my old photos of trying the diamond in different settings, and I forgot how vibrant it looked in comparison to the circular brilliant (aka transitional) I have right now. Not better or worse, just different. Pics for reference and just for fun

 

[AJK1004]

I’ve studied this a lot. I had a diamond with a lot crown, and, though I loved the brilliance, the architecture of the low crown bothered me, and I sold it. I started looking for my holy grail OEC some time ago, and I recently found it. It has a 51% table and a depth of 64.7%. I love it from every angle!

Oh my, those measurements look excellent! The quest/struggle is real~ hehe
May I ask where you found your stone?

 

[lulu_ma]

Do a lot of the petals in stone dark at once?

I have been told that a range of 62 to 65% depth produces best 'fire.'

Of course, I ended up with a spready M color, but I'm happy with the way she performs.

Btw, you are so lucky to be in a city with so many OEC vendors!

 

[Tourmaline]

Oh my, those measurements look excellent! The quest/struggle is real~ hehe
May I ask where you found your stone?

I found it in a bulky antique ring at Eragem! The stone sang to me! Eragem was kind enough to let me return the setting for a partial refund.

 

[Sprinkles&Stones]

I have a shallow OEC! It does not have any crown to speak of, and does flash more white brilliance than fire or rainbow flashes. However it's still a little fiery. I love it a lot. You can see a video of it in action in my previous thread.

I love the stone you posted above. I think it's just wonderful!

A GIA D, a GIA J, and a GIA W/X all walk into a bar... color comparison!

And the punchline is... I don't have enough diamonds! I see so many posts asking about color comparisons that I wanted to add my 3 babies! I thought this would be fun since I have a GIA D, GIA J, and GIA W/X. All 3 have different cuts (OEC, Princess/square brilliant and oval) and all 3 are in...

www.pricescope.com

 

[evergreen]

Btw~ can you share how you made a homemade idealscope? That sounds amazing

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diy-aset-and-ideal-scope.226126/ for homemade idealscope

I don't find my stone goes dark in normal viewing, but when I look at it closely I do see the obstruction as fat arrows. Doesn't bother me. (Fat arrows are cute. )

 

[AJK1004]

Do a lot of the petals in stone dark at once?

I have been told that a range of 62 to 65% depth produces best 'fire.'

Of course, I ended up with a spready M color, but I'm happy with the way she performs.

Btw, you are so lucky to be in a city with so many OEC vendors!

I've been trying to figure this one out. At some angles I see the petals flashing on and off, and other times they all stay "dark" but various shades of grey, if that makes sense.
I tried looking at it through different means and its so inconsistent that I can't say one way or another.

This stone I have is a spready M and I love the color and size. I just wish it didn't behave so hot/cold in specific lighting (hot when indoors / cold in sunlight)

Yes! I didnt realize there were so many vendors until I started my search a few months ago. With covid restrictions loosening up, I've been fortunate to visit stores and see the stones in person

 

[AJK1004]

I found it in a bulky antique ring at Eragem! The stone sang to me! Eragem was kind enough to let me return the setting for a partial refund.

Oh wow! I wouldn't have even thought that as an option. Good to know~

 

[AJK1004]

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diy-aset-and-ideal-scope.226126/ for homemade idealscope

I don't find my stone goes dark in normal viewing, but when I look at it closely I do see the obstruction as fat arrows. Doesn't bother me. (Fat arrows are cute. )

Thanks I'll check it out!
I see that as well~ There is something soothing and appealing to see the crisp lines and clear facets. At the same time, part of me hoped it wouldn't make the whole stone turn dark either. I attached extra photos of the stone next to a pair of smaller OECs (L/VS) for comparison in both outdoor and indoor lighting.

 

[AJK1004]

I have a shallow OEC! It does not have any crown to speak of, and does flash more white brilliance than fire or rainbow flashes. However it's still a little fiery. I love it a lot. You can see a video of it in action in my previous thread.

I love the stone you posted above. I think it's just wonderful!

A GIA D, a GIA J, and a GIA W/X all walk into a bar... color comparison!

And the punchline is... I don't have enough diamonds! I see so many posts asking about color comparisons that I wanted to add my 3 babies! I thought this would be fun since I have a GIA D, GIA J, and GIA W/X. All 3 have different cuts (OEC, Princess/square brilliant and oval) and all 3 are in...

www.pricescope.com

Oh my~ love all your rings, don't know why I didn't think of that - have one for different outfits and occasions lol
This is exactly what is happening and I'm trying to reconcile this internally...
Brilliance and scintillation - lots of white flashes with lively sparkles, almost blinding. I'd rate it around 8-9 out of 10. This is what drew me to the stone in the first place.
Fire - it's inconsistent (only occurs in specific lighting) and then looks kinda gloomy when faced with a direct light *womp womp*

 

[AJK1004]

BTW thank you ALL for your persepctives and personal experiences! It definitely helps having a point of reference to go by. It is also reassuring to know that what I'm seeing isn't a byproduct of overthinking, but rather tapping into my intuition of what "feels" right when it comes to a stone. This journey has been both very educational and fun

 

[evergreen]

BTW thank you ALL for your persepctives and personal experiences! It definitely helps having a point of reference to go by. It is also reassuring to know that what I'm seeing isn't a byproduct of overthinking, but rather tapping into my intuition of what "feels" right when it comes to a stone. This journey has been both very educational and fun

It sounds like you're not in love with the performance -- listen to your feelings, bc I strongly believe old cuts have to be judged emotionally. When I bought my diamond, it was sent to me with a couple of others from a vendor that's quite popular on here -- I could compare it to others in my budget and decide which I liked the best, and it totally stole my heart compared even to larger stones.

There's a dogma on here, and several explanatory threads (so... Maybe not a dogma, then, if it's supported by evidence!) that "well cut stones go dark in direct sunlight." That's true of my transitional cut, too, which is why I sooooooo love that it also has SBF (so, diamond goes overall dark but glows blue, haha).

 

[elizat]

Thanks I'll check it out!
I see that as well~ There is something soothing and appealing to see the crisp lines and clear facets. At the same time, part of me hoped it wouldn't make the whole stone turn dark either. I attached extra photos of the stone next to a pair of smaller OECs (L/VS) for comparison in both outdoor and indoor lighting.

Please untape the stones! The way you have them taped the girdles of the sides are hitting the center you may possibly return!

Diamonds are hard, but can damage and scratch and chip one another, especially fragile old stones.

You need spacing between them so they don't damage one another!

Please take a look and make sure that nothing has been damaged already!

 

[AJK1004]

It sounds like you're not in love with the performance -- listen to your feelings, bc I strongly believe old cuts have to be judged emotionally. When I bought my diamond, it was sent to me with a couple of others from a vendor that's quite popular on here -- I could compare it to others in my budget and decide which I liked the best, and it totally stole my heart compared even to larger stones.

There's a dogma on here, and several explanatory threads (so... Maybe not a dogma, then, if it's supported by evidence!) that "well cut stones go dark in direct sunlight." That's true of my transitional cut, too, which is why I sooooooo love that it also has SBF (so, diamond goes overall dark but glows blue, haha).

You are fortunate to have been able to do a real time comparison, it makes all the difference. Along with the immediate feedback and identification of variances, it can only help make the decision easier!

I came across that phenomenon in my searched as well. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that because it feels so counterintuitive to what one "thinks" a diamond should act like. Interesting, I've never seen a diamond go blue before.

 

[AJK1004]

Please untape the stones! The way you have them taped the girdles of the sides are hitting the center you may possibly return!

Diamonds are hard, but can damage and scratch and chip one another, especially fragile old stones.

You need spacing between them so they don't damage one another!

Please take a look and make sure that nothing has been damaged already!

Thank you for the words of caution. Originally they were sent to me taped. Since then I have taken very careful precautions and have removed them from it and so to ensure they are not touching in its case

 

[evergreen]

You are fortunate to have been able to do a real time comparison, it makes all the difference. Along with the immediate feedback and identification of variances, it can only help make the decision easier!

I came across that phenomenon in my searched as well. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that because it feels so counterintuitive to what one "thinks" a diamond should act like. Interesting, I've never seen a diamond go blue before.

Depending on how much time you've spent on here vs with old cuts in real life, I'm here to tell you a lot of the stunning photos you can see on PS are highly selected and taken in contrived environments to best highlight them. Just in case this is also playing into your perceptions!! Real life diamond performance is not going to match up to the giant, liquid flashes of color an old cut will show when under a tree on a sunny day, for example. I do remember thinking, why doesn't my diamond look like THAT?? But, I learned what environments literally let it shine the best, and further, practiced taking photos so now I can catch diamonds looking like this and not this.
(And that's not even a good example of an un-glamour shot -- bright sunlight would've been worse )

 

[AJK1004]

Depending on how much time you've spent on here vs with old cuts in real life, I'm here to tell you a lot of the stunning photos you can see on PS are highly selected and taken in contrived environments to best highlight them. Just in case this is also playing into your perceptions!! Real life diamond performance is not going to match up to the giant, liquid flashes of color an old cut will show when under a tree on a sunny day, for example. I do remember thinking, why doesn't my diamond look like THAT?? But, I learned what environments literally let it shine the best, and further, practiced taking photos so now I can catch diamonds looking like this and not this.
(And that's not even a good example of an un-glamour shot -- bright sunlight would've been worse )

Very good reality check! A needed reminder that not everything you see is what you really get. Funny how creative lighting and photography tools arent only used to enhance selfies but for stones/rings too! lol

 

[LightBright]

Yeah, you’ve got a Transitional.
Mine is 57% table, 60% depth, 35.5% crown angle, 41.4% pavilion. 15% crown height, 42.5% pavilion height.
My Tranny goes dark under spotlights in the house. Under a tree outside it has rainbows. It looks more white light reflective than rainbow, but still has rainbow fire. If you don’t like what your stone looks like, there are other options.