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Opinions on these sapphires please?

syd

syd

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
122
I'm still learning about coloured stones, and have scoured this forum which is so full of helpful information. I've decided that I'd like my first coloured stone purchase to be a sapphire. I would like the budget to be about $10k, size to be about 4.5 - 5.5 carats, medium blue colour, unheated/untreated with very good clarity. I've found a few stones online on various vendors. Can you please provide some insight into how you knowledgeable folks would assess and compare the stones?

I do understand that there's no substitute to actually seeing the gems in real life, but I'm trying to learn how you would even short list a few to request a viewing?

Thanks in advance!

http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/12860

gemfix_sapphire.jpg

astrological_gems_sapphire.jpg
 
The 5.12 one has a less than ideal cut, with quite a large window, which means that in spite of the 5+ carats weight, you'd get the blue light return of a smaller stone. You'd be able to read text - and see finger - through the centre of the stone. Some windows can be closed, but this one is, as I said, quite large.

The 5.18 is better cut, but I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is a window or just a tilt window. The colour seems more violetish and greyish than the 5.12 stone, though.
 
The 5.18 looks to have some significant zoning issues which may (probably) cause the color to look significantly different in different areas of the stone.

The 5.12 does have a very significant window. Kim described the effects very well. It also is to shallow to consider a recut to close the window. You'd be loosing lots of spread.

Why have you decided against slight heat treatment? It is completely stable and a generally accepted treatment by the industry? Not at all like treating a diamond.
 
Thank you! Note there is one other stone for comparison… its in a link above the two photos.
 
Yes there is another stone up for comparison. But even Edward's first line in the description is , "this stone is not for beginners" .
You began your thread with the revelation that you are a beginner. It is expensive for what it is and it will perform well only under lighting guided by eurythmy
 
Just came back to say to say that i did not mean that to sound nasty; if it came off that way I apologize. My point is that edward's photography is very creative, but gives me no insight into what the stone will actually look like. One thing that seems consistent in
that stone is lots of extinction. I would pass on all three of the stones you posted. You have a healthy budget. Colored stones can take a bit of a hunt to find one that is right for you, but it is fun and worth it. Do you have a time-frame? Would you be willing to come down a carat? Have you considered contacting some lapidaries to see if they have rough they could cut that would meet your wants?
 
syd,
welcome to the wonderful world of colored gemstones, particularly sapphires! i assume you have already read the very helpful pinned posts on colored gemstones and the write-up on sapphires. if not, start there.

sapphires are valued, first and foremost, based on color. is that how YOU are valuing your purchase? what are the trade-offs you are willing to make among color, size, clarity and treatment? this will help people on this forum provide recommendations that best meet your needs.

$10,000 is a very healthy budget for a sapphire, but sadly it is NOT enough for a fine colored, 5-ish carat, untreated blue sapphire with very good clarity and decent cut. if 5-ish carat is a must, then you must give up, fairly significantly, on some (though not all) of your other parameters.

look forward to seeing you find the gem of your dreams.

good luck! (fyi, i have no idea how to evaluate sapphires based on photos, so i cannot be helpful in that regard.)

eta: there are fairly significant price jumps at 3 and 5 carats ... if you are under there, the pricing is quite a bit better, especially for untreated gems.
 
I love the second one!
 
VapidLapid|1385258849|3561899 said:
"this stone is not for beginners"
Click to expand...

This phrase, along with the even more off-putting "takes time to be appreciated", sounds like a polite rephrasing of "this stone will not strike you as beautiful at all on the first glance". While I can appreciate how factors such as multicolour effect, colour shift, "closing up" etc. all add to the complexity of the stone's visual description, the first impression must be one of loveliness.
 
Thank you all for your replies.

@Kim Bruun - I agree, the description provided by Whitefishgems indicates the gem wouldn't be love at first sight

@Upgradable - The reason I want a completely untreated stone is because I want the ring to serve two purposes, one is to look pretty :) Second is I want to wear it as a vedic/astrological gem and for that purpose clarity, medium blue colour, and untreated are essential. The large size is just me wanting it to look significant as a right hand ring. The gem you posted is so yummy... if only I could double my budget :)

@Vapidlapid - don't worry I am not offended. I appreciate your input. I am not in any great hurry and don't have a deadline to find the stone... so I can be patient. I haven't really considered buying a rough stone and having it cut. Do you have any experience with this? What if you don't like the finished product, and the size or look doesn't end up being as you wanted? Any suggestions on lapidaries to contact? The stone you recommended is more violet than blue... it makes it look like a tanzanite I think.

@slksapphire - I absolutely adore your ring!! What are the specs? If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for the stone? Do you have any recommendations for vendors - sounds like you viewed it in person, so was it a local vendor? Thanks for the advice about the price jumps at 3 and 5 carat. I'm ok with getting a stone that's around 4 to 4.5 carat if I can get one that's not too deep and has a larger face. Is there a particular cut that would maximize the table size?
 
I think you got are getting good help already on the stones you posted: bowtie/zoning on first, huge window on second.

Before you spend thousands on your first colored stone, I would encourage you both see any many sapphires in person as you can, and to start by buying less expensive CSs. Unlike diamonds, CSs cannot be sold very easily as the demand is much lower, they are not a commodity like diamonds (so the prices are inconsistent, compared to diamonds, from vendor to vendor), and what you like is not what someone else will like.

I like the stone that VL posted, but it will be silky. I personally _love_ that look in blue sapphires, but it's not for everyone.
 
Pregcurious what do you mean by "silky"? You're right. I do need to see some sapphires in person. I need to find someone in Toronto that specializes in gemstones, particularly sapphires.

VapidLapid, that deep blue colour is lovely. However it is darker than the others... would it look almost black when set? I want the blue to be seen from a distance. For example in one of the most famous sapphire rings.... princess Diana's I find that in most photos the ring doesn't even look blue its almost black. Although who knows what it looks like in real life?
 
syd, thanks so much for your kind thoughts. here is a link to the story behind my sapphire.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-dream-sapphire-found.172133/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-dream-sapphire-found.172133/[/URL]

to summarize, it is a 5.42 ct emerald cut sapphire, unheated/untreated, from ceylon, Li2 transitional (there is a clear feather that is visible if you tilt the stone). from agl's perspective, it has a color rating of 3 (very good), tone of 75 (medium dark) and cut rating of 3-4 (very good). if you are unfamiliar with agl's rating system, it is very rare to get an excellent rating (1-2) for color.

as i mentioned above, generally, color drives the price of blue sapphires. very subtle differences in color can result in $1,000s difference in price PER CARAT. my sapphire was more than your budget, per carat. and i don't think i overpaid. true gem-quality, 5+ carat unheated sapphire starts at around $10,000 per carat.

i would strongly recommend that you look at as many sapphires as you can in person. you will probably figure out what you like pretty quickly. a great place to do this is at a gem fair. i tried working with a few jewelers, but the sapphires i could see were few and far between, and it was impossible to compare them side-by-side, which is incredibly helpful.
 
For what you are looking for; 4 to 5 ct eye clean untreated medium blue sapphire for $10K will be an impossibility. Something has to give. Colour sets the price so if you cannot budge on a rich medium blue, then the size has to be flexible. You should be able to get a 3 carat sapphire that fits all your other specification. In order for a stone to look large, table size has little bearing. Look at the measurements. If the measurement is large, then it looks large. If the measurement is small, then it looks small. Looking for a large table brings its own set of problems. These type of stones are typically poorly cut, more likely to be windowed or show a tilt window easily (dead area in the centre and you can see your finger underneath instead of seeing the stone).
 
Wow, that's a big jump in price for a small increase in weight!! I could probably increase the budget a little bit but not enough to get something like slksapphire's stone :(( I agree, I do need to see some sapphires in person. I did a search on the internet and it looks like I just missed a gem show this past weekend :( :( and there's another one next April. People keep suggesting going to museums, but not sure how much jewellery the Royal Ontario Museum has lol. Another option is going to Tiffanys or Birks, but I find the sales people there make me really nervous/guilty since I know I'm never going to buy anything from them.
 
If you want to get a good stone for a good price, its critical to train your eye. Gem shows are one of the the best ways to do it. It is such a good idea to see stones in hand in various lighting conditions, etc. From what you've posted so far, I would say that your range is quite wide and it would behoove you to read more about the elements that make up color (tone, hue and saturation), and cut. Eventually, when you've seen a few and are confident about what you like, then it might make sense to buy several from online vendors to compare with the goal of returning the ones you don't choose. Your budget is healthy and you certainly don't want to waste it - if I could do it again, I would've learned more first before I purchased my first $5K-$10K stone.
 
I found a gemstone vendor in the Toronto area that specializes in emeralds, rubies and sapphires. I'm going to see him this weekend to look at his stock, get educated and look at the pricing/range of colours cuts etc. He said he has a supplier that has two 4+ carat untreated sapphires and he's trying to get pictures of those stones. He has one "native" cut 4+ in stock, but he said the cut isn't great. Looking forward to this weekend!! Hopefully he'll let me take pictures :)
 
Here are some pictures the vendor has sent to me. What are your thoughts on these gems? A couple of these are smaller sapphires he has in stock, but is sending me pictures to get my input on the kind of colour I'm looking for. The 4.02 carat looks more violet in this picture than I'd like.

7x5_oval___1_ct.jpg

img_2939.jpg

natural_sapphire__4.jpg
 
What is the type of lighting used? Most sapphires look their best outdoors (shaded sunlight) and tend to look their worst indoors (fluorescent). Some will look more violetish indoors.
 
I think it is very hard to tell much either about the color or the cutting from those photos. I cannot tell the lighting type used and the angles at which the stones sit in relation to the camera make it hard to tell much. That said, I would not describe these as vivid but each of medium saturation so that there appears to be a grey component.
 
knowing the light source and brightness is critical for evaluating color. but based on what i can see on my screen, the sapphires don't look very saturated, and color appears to be uneven, grey and tone of light/medium. again, this is based solely on the photos, which may be misleading.

as for cut, you really need to see the stone straight on to evaluate windows, etc. a video may be most helpful.
 
Thanks... I will see them in person this weekend so I'll get a better idea. The main purpose of meeting is to clarify my requirements. I don't expect to find my dream gem at the first meeting but at least he can look for a stone for me if he knows what I'm after.

One of the other threads listed an eBay/etsy vendor I hadn't looked at before. There is a sapphire listed that I would expect to be more expensive than what it's listed for given the cut, colour and size. The saturation is not high, but what am I missing here?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRS-Certified-Unheated-Cornflower-Blue-Sapphire-Clean-Cushion-7-5ct-Srilanka-/121056455290?pt=Loose_Gemstones_1&hash=item1c2f86ea7a
 
It isn't eye clean.
 
Studio lighting imo overstates saturation. That stone is not highly saturated. Given that the photo undoubtedly shows it at its best, its likely quite grey in hand. The lack of saturation, coupled with its not being eye clean, accounts for its price.
 
Just got some quotes from Pala gems for a few sapphires that meet my criteria.... all I can say is gulp!!
 
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