Opinions please! How to set new Spessartite

[anythingorange]

minousbijoux - Thanks. I owe all of the credit to the stone-selector, Richard Wise. All I did was say "Is it pretty? Is it brown?"

TL - Thanks for the dose of reality. I would have happily proceeded to ask the jeweler for single, 18K claw prongs, not realizing the danger. Great advice!

 

[VapidLapid]

That is quite a lovely stone. And it's HUGE!

 

[anythingorange]

Thanks, VapidLapid. Hubby says my budget is officially blown!

 

[Sagebrush]

Anything Orange,

I see you have joined up.

I like your photos better than mine, but I think video is truly the way to go. A gemstone is a dynamic object and static views by definition will not really show the true character of the stone. I'll be doing videos on important stones starting early summer.

TL is right about yellow gold and 22k is possible if the stone is bezel set, but the rest of the piece should be 18k.

I enjoyed working with you and thank you for having faith in my statement that the stone had no brown in it. Brown is a darker desaturated orange, so when you view a non-symmetrical stone, anything other than round and square, there are always portions of the gem that are non-refractive. Some photographers correct that by using multiple light sources. That gives the erroneous impression that an oval stone, for example shows its total brilliance perpendicular to the table, that is rarely true with a single light source, if only because you head is in the way.

The proper method used to evaluate brilliance in a oval, pear, rectangular cushion, is to place it with the long axis up at a 35 degree angle facing you with an light source above the stone. You will see the brilliance of the bottom half of the stone, turn it 180 degrees and you will see the brilliance of the other half. If 50% of the first half is refracts light and 25% of the second half, you have a gem that is 37.5% brilliant (Secrets, Ch.3, p.12.

What will you see in the top half of the stone, the desaturated, non-refractive, transmitted body color, in the case of an orange stone, you will see brown. In other hues, usually the body color plus the mask.

RWW

 

[movie zombie]

prongs should never be 22k gold...18k gold works great.
my ring is 22k gold EXCEPT for an 18k gold bridge beneath the stone which provides setting integrety.
it is completely safe because of the width of the band, how it is set, and the thickness of the 22k gold.
i do not agree that the entire setting has to be 18k gold. i've had my spess set as it is for years now w/o a problem.
however, i would NEVER use 22k gold prongs. the stone could so easily be popped out of the setting with not much of a hit in just the wrong place at the wrong time.

melee on the shank is one thing. halo another for this stone.
a stone of your size and quality does not need a halo and could end up being just another gorgeous cocktail ring.

 

[Sagebrush]

MZ,

I agree! Essentially what you have is a half bezel, we use them frequently and they are sufficient, in 22k, to hold the stone. They must be either hand fabricated or cast. If fabricated they can be a tad lighter because 22k will work harden to some degree. A prong setting in 22k would have to be so heavy as to be cumbersome and still would not be totally secure. Gold is the most plastic of metals.

Also, a bezel if properly built can be tapered and its angle adjusted to enhance a stone. It can correct some light leakage and there is always some. We were able to make a large fancy yellow diamond into a visually fancy intense simply by carefully building a yellow setting and putting it inside a platinum outer setting.

Best,

RWW

 

[bright ice]

Anything Orange,

I see you have joined up.

I like your photos better than mine, but I think video is truly the way to go. A gemstone is a dynamic object and static views by definition will not really show the true character of the stone. I'll be doing videos on important stones starting early summer.

TL is right about yellow gold and 22k is possible if the stone is bezel set, but the rest of the piece should be 18k.

I enjoyed working with you and thank you for having faith in my statement that the stone had no brown in it. Brown is a darker desaturated orange, so when you view a non-symmetrical stone, anything other than round and square, there are always portions of the gem that are non-refractive. Some photographers correct that by using multiple light sources. That gives the erroneous impression that an oval stone, for example shows its total brilliance perpendicular to the table, that is rarely true with a single light source, if only because you head is in the way.

The proper method used to evaluate brilliance in a oval, pear, rectangular cushion, is to place it with the long axis up at a 35 degree angle facing you with an light source above the stone. You will see the brilliance of the bottom half of the stone, turn it 180 degrees and you will see the brilliance of the other half. If 50% of the first half is refracts light and 25% of the second half, you have a gem that is 37.5% brilliant (Secrets, Ch.3, p.12.

What will you see in the top half of the stone, the desaturated, non-refractive, transmitted body color, in the case of an orange stone, you will see brown. In other hues, usually the body color plus the mask.

RWW

Richard,
Would you mind telling me about this stone, as in how is the color? Any brown?

http://www.rwwise.com/products/id%7C1476

 

[colorluvr]

Very pretty stone and I'm anxious to see how you decide to set it.

 

[Sagebrush]

Bright Ice,

None of my spessartites have any brown at all. In fact you would never see a spessartite with that key color (vivid orange) alternating with a dark brown key color, think about it, how would this even be possible? This happens only in photographs and in stones with zones of color or spots of color like a dalmatian, this is not true of garnets except, of course, the very rare woof-woof garnet from Translavania.

Black now would be possible, but black is the absence of color and it is the result of off-axis refraction and can even be seen in an ideal cut diamond. In fact, without the contrast there would be no such thing as scintillation (sparkle), every stone would look like a headlight.

RWW

 

[minousbijoux]

I just had another look at your photos and had to come back again to say how absolutely gorgeous that stone is. Unbelievable color, if your photos are any indication.

I will preface my remarks by saying that I am not a bling girl in general. But in this case, partly due to the size, I think you should incorporate some melee into the setting. I say this because large, unadorned eye catching stones often look like synthetic "bubble gum" rings to me. If you were to skip the diamonds, I would have some detailing in the mount, such as filigree work or millegraining.

I too will really look forward to the ring completion.

 

[bright ice]

Bright Ice,

None of my spessartites have any brown at all. In fact you would never see a spessartite with that key color (vivid orange) alternating with a dark brown key color, think about it, how would this even be possible? This happens only in photographs and in stones with zones of color or spots of color like a dalmatian, this is not true of garnets except, of course, the very rare woof-woof garnet from Translavania.

Black now would be possible, but black is the absence of color and it is the result of off-axis refraction and can even be seen in an ideal cut diamond. In fact, without the contrast there would be no such thing as scintillation (sparkle), every stone would look like a headlight.

RWW

Thanks Richard for your response.

 

[minousbijoux]

Richard, thank you for your diplomacy in your response, and not breaking forum rules by promoting one of your stones directly.

 

[LD]

Richard, thank you for your diplomacy in your response, and not breaking forum rules by promoting one of your stones directly.

I'm sorry but I'm VERY uncomfortable with this thread and I think this IS breaking the rules. A vendor should not comment about any of their gemstones sold or otherwise. Ed from Wildfish was accused of self-promotion on this forum only yesterday and I don't think it would be fair to allow this thread to continue with the vendor speaking about his stones (whether asked or otherwise) when Ed was talking in general terms and not even about a stone he had sold or had in his inventory. I do not wish to be inflammatory or for anybody to think this is aimed at them but there simply cannot be one rule for one and another for others.

 

[minousbijoux]

LD: I stand corrected. Thanks for weighing in. I was trying to positively reinforce the fact that he did not launch into a full scale discussion of how perfect his stone was. I don't appreciate the book reference with page numbers as that is ABSOLUTELY the self promotion we were discussing yesterday. But I did appreciate the fact that he kept it general. But you're right - he shouldn't have commented at all.

That said, we all know its hard, because as Gene wrote in the other thread, they are in the business they're in because they like it, and they must get attached to their babies. It must be really hard not to want to add perspective as the vendor who thinks he/she knows the stone best...

 

[LD]

Minous thank you. I agree it is very difficult for Vendors but the golden rule I believe is don't self-promote (ie books etc) and don't comment on your own stones. It is a fine line to judge but vendors typically stay well clear of threads discussing their gems (even when the comments are negative and they believe the comments are unfair). I applaud them for this because it must be exceptionally difficult.

 

[minousbijoux]

LD - you are absolutely lovely

I completely agree and will bite my tongue and say nothing else as to avoid picking a fight with a vendor...

 

[LD]

LD - you are absolutely lovely

I completely agree and will bite my tongue and say nothing else as to avoid picking a fight with a vendor...

Minous - I'm sending you a huge hug! ((((((hug))))))

 

[minousbijoux]

Now lets go over to the other thread and eat TL's cake

 

[LD]

Now lets go over to the other thread and eat TL's cake

Oh yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sagebrush]

M,

I'm sorry what rule did I not break, but then did break? I answered a direct question with an indirect answer as you so rightly observed. I wrote a book with a full explanation of a partial answer. Would I have violated the forum rules if I quoted some other author? Might I have a link to the rule that is being discussed?

RWW

 

[LD]

https://www.pricescope.com/content/forum-policies - the wording of Clause 2 is absolutely clear that advertisements are not allowed.

You have discussed your own products. You were not invited to join this thread and even if you had, modesty should have precluded you from joining for the simple reason that not one comment had been negative. You have said that none of your spessartites are brown ie promoting your own gemstones for sale. You promote your book(s) in virtually all your threads and also in your signature. Clauses 2(c) and 2(e) apply.

 

[Sagebrush]

LD,

My query was directed at the forum administrator for clarification. You seem very anxious to censor me. I don't believe anyone must be "invited" to post to a thread, however!

You cite the following: Here is 2 (c)

Do not use a promotional slogan in your signature. You should sign your posts with your name, credentials and company name.

I would argue that being the "author of" is a credential much like degrees, G.G. and the like. In fact, it is always listed on academic c.v.'s At least that was what I was told when I originally asked if I could post that credential as part of my signature.

Here is 2 (e)

"Do not mention your products or services unless requested in the thread by a consumer."

Check the post! I was asked a direct question about a specific product on my site, my answer was indirect.

Now if a direct reference to an educational article or book written by myself is considered to be self promotion, I would appreciate hearing that from an administrator and I, of course, will refrain from making such references. I would further like to know if such references refer only to books and/or articles that are for sale. I have published quite a number of articles that are available free. Perhaps that would depend if the articles are available on my website or others. Again, I would appreciate clarification from a forum administrator.

Best,

RWW

 

[LD]

LD,

My query was directed at the forum administrator for clarification. You seem very anxious to censor me. I don't believe anyone must be "invited" to post to a thread, however!

You cite the following: Here is 2 (c)

Do not use a promotional slogan in your signature. You should sign your posts with your name, credentials and company name.

I would argue that being the "author of" is a credential much like degrees, G.G. and the like. In fact, it is always listed on academic c.v.'s At least that was what I was told when I originally asked if I could post that credential as part of my signature.

Here is 2 (e)

"Do not mention your products or services unless requested in the thread by a consumer."

Check the post! I was asked a direct question about a specific product on my site, my answer was indirect.

Now if a direct reference to an educational article or book written by myself is considered to be self promotion, I would appreciate hearing that from an administrator and I, of course, will refrain from making such references. I would further like to know if such references refer only to books and/or articles that are for sale. I have published quite a number of articles that are available free. Perhaps that would depend if the articles are available on my website or others. Again, I would appreciate clarification from a forum administrator.

Best,

RWW

I take absolute exception to the bolded statement. I do not wish to "censor" you! Why on earth would I? It's absolutely ridiculous to say such a thing. In fact I believe I complimented the gemstone bought from you earlier.

When you addressed your post to "M" you did not say that you wished a Moderator to answer and in fact you referenced Minous's post so "M" could quite easily have been her - you did NOT reference a Moderator. OR "M" could have been me as my first name begins with M as you well know. If you want a Moderator to answer then perhaps being more specific would have been helpful and you could, like the rest of us, contact the moderators offline had you wished to do so.

With reference to clause 2(e) - you entered the thread that was specifically discussing a stone bought from you and you commented on it. That, to me, is a violation of clause 2(e).

In my opinion blatent self-promotion of your books, over and over and over and over is wearing. It is advertising and there can be no other interpretation. If you wish to share your knowledge then simply writing it in a post is sufficient - you do not have to quote chapter and page numbers of your books. I would be far more impressed if you quoted others rather than just yourself as this gives a balanced approach. The purpose of my post was to play fair to ALL vendors and I was very very clear about that. The fact that you have chosen to see this as a personal attack, despite my post above deliberately saying it wasn't is unfortunate. In my opinion, you do not act within the guidelines that other Vendors follow. Your interpretation of the policies appears to allow you to advertise and promote your own books and gemstones and I can't believe that interpretation is correct.

Hopefully the moderators will be able to clarify whether you have broken forum policies or not and I do not intend to indulge in conversation on this further as you asked to be directed to the policies and I've done that. How you chose to interpret them is up to you.

 

[Sagebrush]

MinousBejoux,

Sorry for the confusion, I somehow got the idea that you were an administrator and your statement to me represented an official response hence the M. in my request in this thread for clarification of forum rules.

I am sure that if there were any such, I will hear from a forum administrator.

RWW

 

[jezebelle]

It's so pretty...whatever you decide to do with it, I can't wait to see the finished product!

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

There are a couple of ways to explain why a medium toned vivid orange gem will show a dark desaturated orange also known as brown in a digital image. The most probable is that the dark brown scintillation is a combination of off-axis refraction and the body color of the gem. Why, because a vivid orange canno't co-exist with a dark de-saturated brown unless the stone is zoned and spessartite is never zoned. I am not sure why the eye sees orange interspersed with black and the camera sees orange interspersed with brown.

What is off axis refraction? If you are looking directly at a gemstone and a ray of light exists the crown straight at you (perpendicular to the table facet) the key color will be true; medium toned orange. If the angle strays from the perpendicular, the image will appear grayish, the greater the angle the more gray until eventually it turns black. It appears black because at about 20 degrees from the perpendicular, no light is actually reaching your eye. Tilt the gemstone side to side and that pattern of color and darkness will ripple and move and change shape as the light refracting from some facets enters your zone of vision and some refracts outside that zone.

The Face-up Mosaic: The face of a gemstone is not uniform, if it were it would resemble a headlight, consistently brilliant but without sparkle. Sparkle or scintillation is the result of the positive playing off the negative. Think of the face up mosaic of the gem as a patch work quilt of color. Some facets will appear bright, others dull, some with color some without (black). The positive refracting colored light (sparkle) cannot exist without the negative lack of color (black). Even an ideal cut diamond with 95% brilliance needs the 5% black to show scintillation. I have seen some Eight Star diamonds with 98% brilliance that simply lack any real life. The light return is just too efficient. This sounds like a paradox and it is.

 

[NKOTB]

I was never a fan of orange before, but it's stones like THAT that make my personal hunt for a nice spess continue! Beautiful. I agree with a yellow gold choice, at least directly around the stone.

As for the other business, I also think Bright Ice might have just asked Richard in an email about a particular stone if she was interested, and Richard could have directed her to do so, rather than answer in the thread, even in general terms.

 

[bright ice]

I was never a fan of orange before, but it's stones like THAT that make my personal hunt for a nice spess continue! Beautiful. I agree with a yellow gold choice, at least directly around the stone.

As for the other business, I also think Bright Ice might have just asked Richard in an email about a particular stone if she was interested, and Richard could have directed her to do so, rather than answer in the thread, even in general terms.

I apologize for asking about one of his particular stones in this thread.