Oyo Valley Red Tourmaline

[EmmaJoy]

I absolutely love deep pink stones, and I've been reading about Oyo Valley Red Tourmaline. I love the idea that I might actually be able to afford a "set" of this stone - and possibly even enough to make a necklace. Do you have a recommendation where I could buy this type of stone? What are your thoughts on it? Thanks so much experts!!

 

[T L]

I absolutely love deep pink stones, and I've been reading about Oyo Valley Red Tourmaline. I love the idea that I might actually be able to afford a "set" of this stone - and possibly even enough to make a necklace. Do you have a recommendation where I could buy this type of stone? What are your thoughts on it? Thanks so much experts!!

It could be irradiated, so I personally wouldn't touch it with a fifty foot pole unless it was super cheap and I didn't care about irradiation. It's not a detectable treatment either .

 

[EmmaJoy]

That's true - something to be concerned about, that is why I was asking about trusted sellers! I read about them on Richard Wise's blog http://rwwise.com/blog/?tag=lawrence-graff

 

[T L]

That's true - something to be concerned about, that is why I was asking about trusted sellers! I read about them on Richard Wise's blog http://rwwise.com/blog/?tag=lawrence-graff

As far as I'm concerned, since the treatment is not detectable, I stay away from red tourmaline, even from highy trusted sellers. Those sellers can be duped by their sources. The stones need to be followed all the way from the mine to the seller. JMO, as you may not agree. It would personally bug me if I paid for a stone that I didn't have strong confidence that it was not irradiated. At least if you could prove it was not irradiated by laboratory tests, then I feel it would be worth it. Non-detectable treatment or synthesis is one of the scariest things about being a gem consumer IMO.

 

[pregcurious]

I agree with TL. Richard Wise is a reputable seller, but he and any seller can make a mistake. A PSer once bought a stone from him that ended up being synthetic, based on a reputable lab evaluation. He handled the situation well, but it goes to show that you absolutely need to be able to verify treatments.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/update-on-my-amelia-stone-well-its-not-my-amelia-stone-please-read-if-you-like-expensive-gems.108407/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/update-on-my-amelia-stone-well-its-not-my-amelia-stone-please-read-if-you-like-expensive-gems.108407/[/URL]

Original thread describing the stone before the certification:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-amelia-stone-unheated-padparadscha-from-richard-wise.105155/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-amelia-stone-unheated-padparadscha-from-richard-wise.105155/[/URL]

 

[T L]

Pregcurious,
I don't think Richard had them for sale (maybe he does), but rather, I think he was just writing about the new find, as he does in his blog about other new and interesting gemological finds. However, your point is correct that any reputable seller can make a mistake.

 

[pregcurious]

I believe that Richard actually sold the stone based on this quote from the thread I posted:

TravelingGal wrote:
"If you recall, the stone was not certed when Richard received it, but Richard includes the certification in the price of the stone. I am so appreciative and glad that buying more expensive stones through Richards come with certs, because if it had not, I might have not been so fortunate.

The stone, which was sent to AGTA to get certified came back as synthetic. Yes, that means man-made.

Richard called me from Tucson to tell me the news. That part was certainly the bad news. The good news was that he had looked very hard and found a pad that he thought was worthy. He offered me the stone he found, or a refund. My choice."

 

[EmmaJoy]

Fascinating, thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. Never is there more an appropriate usage of the phrase: caveat emptor. I still really love dark pink tourmaline, but I will be sure to consider it as an aesthetic purchase, and not an investment.

 

[T L]

I believe that Richard actually sold the stone based on this quote from the thread I posted:

TravelingGal wrote:
"If you recall, the stone was not certed when Richard received it, but Richard includes the certification in the price of the stone. I am so appreciative and glad that buying more expensive stones through Richards come with certs, because if it had not, I might have not been so fortunate.

The stone, which was sent to AGTA to get certified came back as synthetic. Yes, that means man-made.

Richard called me from Tucson to tell me the news. That part was certainly the bad news. The good news was that he had looked very hard and found a pad that he thought was worthy. He offered me the stone he found, or a refund. My choice."

I'm sorry Pregcurious, maybe I misunderstood you, the stone in question that Tgal purchased from Richard was a padparadscha. I don't think he's selling any oyo red tourmaline, but again, I could be wrong. However, same rules apply, no matter the stone, as any seller can be duped. Richard of course did the right thing by having it checked out by a reputable lab before the sale was finalized, and cudos to him. A lot of dealers let the buyer "fend for themselves," so buyer education is key.

 

[T L]

Fascinating, thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. Never is there more an appropriate usage of the phrase: caveat emptor. I still really love dark pink tourmaline, but I will be sure to consider it as an aesthetic purchase, and not an investment.

Well, I wouldn't pay a lot of money for it either. Unfortunately, non-detectable treatments can also affect the value on stones that are not treated. It's rather sad for the buyer and the vendor. I hope one day they will be able to detect low heat and irradiation in tourmaline as both these treatments are currently not detectable.

 

[pregcurious]

No problem TL. Yes, the stone was a padparadscha, but I just wanted to illustrate your point that even the most reputable seller can make mistakes.

Good luck, Emmajoy. Red tourmalines are very pretty.

 

[PrecisionGem]

TL, I'm not aware of any price difference between heated tourmaline, irradiated tourmaline and untreated. So if one was to assume the stone was treated, then what would be the big risk? Certainly not a monetary one. There is a definite difference in price for a treated sapphire compared to a comparable untreated, but no so with many other stones. Normally the treating actually adds value to the stone since the result is more attractive.

Not all people have such a strong distaste for treatment as you do.

 

[T L]

TL, I'm not aware of any price difference between heated tourmaline, irradiated tourmaline and untreated. So if one was to assume the stone was treated, then what would be the big risk? Certainly not a monetary one. There is a definite difference in price for a treated sapphire compared to a comparable untreated, but no so with many other stones. Normally the treating actually adds value to the stone since the result is more attractive.

Not all people have such a strong distaste for treatment as you do.

Well, normally irradiated stones are sold at a much lower premium than their non-treated counterparts, all else being equal. If people don't care about treatment, then why are some gems so much more valuable when they're untreated (again, all else being equal). If I can't tell, and then one day, they figure out how to detect this treatment, there may be an issue as well.

I never said I was against treatment, I'm against non-disclosed treatment or non-detectable treatment, as I do like to know what changes, aside from faceting, that my stones have gone through to make them more marketable. That being said, treatment makes some gemstones very affordable that otherwise wouldn't be. In that regard, if they decided to mark down red tourmaline to very low prices, perhaps I also wouldn't care, but I'm not going to spend hundreds, or even thousands a carat on a stone that was possibly irradiated, sorry. Don't tell me those stones are cheap, as they're not.

 

[PrecisionGem]

The price guides used in the trade, don't show any different prices for treated or non treated tourmaline.

Another example is Topaz. Treated white topaz, to turn it blue sells for more than untreated topaz. Very light natural blue topaz will not sell for as much as London Blue or Swiss blue which is treated.

The Guide does show much higher prices for untreated sapphire and ruby. For most other stones, treatments do not lower the prices. 99% of the consumers couldn't care less if a nice bright red tourmaline was heated and or irradiated or not.

 

[T L]

The price guides used in the trade, don't show any different prices for treated or non treated tourmaline.

Another example is Topaz. Treated white topaz, to turn it blue sells for more than untreated topaz. Very light natural blue topaz will not sell for as much as London Blue or Swiss blue which is treated.

The Guide does show much higher prices for untreated sapphire and ruby. For most other stones, treatments do not lower the prices. 99% of the consumers couldn't care less if a nice bright red tourmaline was heated and or irradiated or not.

While I do agree that treatment makes a stone more marketable, as in blue topaz, all things being equal, a valuable gem like sapphire or ruby should be much higher in price for the same color, clarity, carat weight, origin, etc. . . than a treated one. Blue topaz is not a good example because its a relatively cheap stone. Tourmaline can be up there in price, and fine red tourmaline is rare, so if I can't detect the treatment, I don't want to pay top dollar for one.

Also just because 99% of consumers don't care is not a good excuse. They don't care because they are probably uneducated about treatment. True gem afficionados, such as the many people that post here, and other collectors, do care. Unfortunately many of those 99% of consumers are taken advantage of by non disclosure. If you ever sell your gems too, the vendor will care, as he/she is probably educated enough to want to know so they don't have to pay you as much. I'm not saying that gems are an investment, but you do want to get the most for your money. For example, I would be horrified to know I paid thousands for a sapphire, when it came back as be-diffused.

 

[Harriet]

TL,
I know the gentlemen who bought the majority of the find -- a crystal so huge that they had to saw it apart. They state that it is untreated and I trust them. They would not risk their considerable reputations on a false claim.

EmmaJoy,
Unfortunately, Oyo Valley has been mined out. What top material there is for sale is both scarce and expensive.

 

[PrecisionGem]

TL, the point is treated red tourmaline will sell for the same price a untreated. There is no distinction made in the price in the market. If I cut a piece that I dig out of the ground my self and know it's not treated, I can't sell if for any more than a known treated piece. The reason being, that 99% of the consumers out there don't care.

 

[LD]

I hate to disagree with my friend TL but I'm afraid I do.

A few years ago I raised this very topic because Rubellite was being irradiated BUT was being sold at the same price as non-irradiated. HOWEVER, as the treatment is non-detectable, stable and there is no price difference between treated/non-treated (despite some of us thinking there should be - including me), I would not discourage buying BUT I would want to know from the vendor whether I was buying treated or non-treated. Unfortunately some vendors simply won't know. Others may. Others may say to assume treatment because they just don't know.

Irradiation of tourmaline where it's stable and doesn't affect the price or value is one of those treatments that we may have to accept is an evil presence! In all honesty, I read somewhere that irradiation of tourmalines has been around for many many years SO with that in mind, I would venture that most hasn't been disclosed until fairly recently.

 

[AGBF]

TL, I'm not aware of any price difference between heated tourmaline, irradiated tourmaline and untreated. So if one was to assume the stone was treated, then what would be the big risk? Certainly not a monetary one. There is a definite difference in price for a treated sapphire compared to a comparable untreated, but no so with many other stones. Normally the treating actually adds value to the stone since the result is more attractive.

Not all people have such a strong distaste for treatment as you do.

So...Gene and Harriet!Tell me about red tourmalines! I have always liked tourmalines, but never bought one. What does a red one look like? How much does one cost? (I'm going to assume it's treated and irradiated to death! All the blue topazes I have ever bought were!)

Deb/AGBF

 

[PrecisionGem]

There is a dealer in Nigeria I have been working with for years, I emailed him last night about the red tourmaline from Nigeria, and irradiating it. Here's his reply.

"the fact is that nigeria lacks the capability to treat any type of stone except one man his company name is call simbata curve he will take it to brazil or asia and treat and bring it to usa for sales i have handles and helped ISG for this investigation let me copy you the info to red but directly from here not at all

its all natural"

 

[T L]

There is a dealer in Nigeria I have been working with for years, I emailed him last night about the red tourmaline from Nigeria, and irradiating it. Here's his reply.

"the fact is that nigeria lacks the capability to treat any type of stone except one man his company name is call simbata curve he will take it to brazil or asia and treat and bring it to usa for sales i have handles and helped ISG for this investigation let me copy you the info to red but directly from here not at all

its all natural"

Okay, here's the deal with the Nigerian stuff. I've asked around several places if the Nigerian material has telltale origin specific inclusions, because as you say, if they're not nuking it, then awesome! Yes, I've heard its not been nuked. However, no one in the trade that I've talked to, including gemologists could say for sure. Therefore, how do you even prove origin? Now I know you can take the vendor's word for it, but it would be better to have a lab report that said, "Origin: Nigeria." I have some very saturated Nigerian material myself, and it's included, but very saturated, and I have been trying to find this origin thing out because it would be in my best interest as well.

Now I can call AGL in NYC and ask Christopher Smith if they can prove Nigerian origin in red tourmaline and get back to you.

ETA: Shot him an email, will get back to you if he contacts me.

 

[T L]

TL,
I know the gentlemen who bought the majority of the find -- a crystal so huge that they had to saw it apart. They state that it is untreated and I trust them. They would not risk their considerable reputations on a false claim.

EmmaJoy,
Unfortunately, Oyo Valley has been mined out. What top material there is for sale is both scarce and expensive.

I know Harriet, but don't you think it would be in your best interest to have documentation of that crystal, etc. . .? Maybe you do, and I'm not saying you should distrust your vendor. I just know many vendors do not have direct contact with the mine source, and the more that stone changes hands, the more it might have been tampered with.

Do you know if Oyo Valley material has origin specific inclusions?

 

[LD]

Ok so this is where it gets interesting!

Far be it from me to trust anything a TV jewellery vendor says but in the UK one is selling Oyo Tourmaline as heated only and Shimoyo Tourmaline stating that people should assume irradiation and/or heat treatment. They say some is, some isn't! This dates back a couple of years and if the current information on their website (see below).

If in doubt, surely it's safer to assume irradiation unless it can be categorically proved otherwise.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I suppose it's possible when I buy a parcel of stones from Nigeria, and they come FEDEX from Nigeria, that the dealer there could have sent the 12 stones to Brazil or Thailand, then had them sent back Nigeria (Which is very risky as many parcels get stolen) and then he sent the stones on to me. One really doesn't know. Just like what man really knows for sure he is the father of your child? You can tell him is, doesn't mean he really is now does it?

As far as what you posted LD from JTV, that's a rather different picture. THey are buying in very large quantities, the good the bad and the ugly, sending to Asia to be processed. The good stuff doesn't' need to be treated, much of the other stuff most likely is.

Here's a picture of some rough from Oyo Valley that was just sent to me a few weeks ago. I actually didn't buy it, but thought you may all be interested in the picture. The picture was taken in Nigeria. Untreated material.

 

[LD]

Gene - it's not JTV (although not sure why I'm bothering to clarify because they're all as bad as each other) but this is from Rocks & Co - who are ostensibly run by lapidarists brothers called Diniz (Tony and Tanner(?)). Their gemstones/jewellery do look very good (with eye watering prices) but I'm pretty sure that most gems are highly treated. I'm not sure that they bulk buy (perhaps I'm being naive) but they tend to have gems for a few months and then move on.

 

[T L]

I suppose it's possible when I buy a parcel of stones from Nigeria, and they come FEDEX from Nigeria, that the dealer there could have sent the 12 stones to Brazil or Thailand, then had them sent back Nigeria (Which is very risky as many parcels get stolen) and then he sent the stones on to me. One really doesn't know. Just like what man really knows for sure he is the father of your child? You can tell him is, doesn't mean he really is now does it?

As far as what you posted LD from JTV, that's a rather different picture. THey are buying in very large quantities, the good the bad and the ugly, sending to Asia to be processed. The good stuff doesn't' need to be treated, much of the other stuff most likely is.

Here's a picture of some rough from Oyo Valley that was just sent to me a few weeks ago. I actually didn't buy it, but thought you may all be interested in the picture. The picture was taken in Nigeria. Untreated material.

Gene,
I'm not saying that you personally deal with irradiated material, or any other trustworthy vendor or lapidarist. The problem isn't that. The problem lies in the fact that for now, no matter where the stones come from, the treatment is not detectable. Perhaps there is some peace of mind for people that buy from you, and that's fine, but without a reputable lab report that says, "this tourmaine is untreated," the point of where and/or who it comes from is probably mute. It can change hands many times, and if the Oyo material is very expensive as Harriet mentions, I bet that irradiation may come into play as a factor for these stones' future value. High priced gems often are much less expensive if treated than untreated. When you're talking blue topaz and other low priced gems, it's a different matter. Therefore, in the meantime, unless this treatment can be detected, I won't touch it. Sorry, this is just my point of view, and I wanted to share it. No one has to agree with me, including yourself.

Now if Chris Smith or any AGL representative can come back and definitively tell me otherwise that rubellite can be id'd as non-treated, I'll let you know.

BTW, here's the UK television channel that LD mentioned that is selling this material as "unknown treatment." There are photos of the stones on that page. LD also brings up a good point that tourmaline is also heated as well, and again, not detectable!!

http://www.rocksandco.com/index.php?task=gzine&action=shimoyoRubellite

 

[T L]

The late great Jeff Graham put out this very old page on rubellite, note what he says about irradiation of rubellite.

http://www.faceters.com/how_to_buy/buy1.shtml

He says you can spot irradiated tourmaline if you know what to look for, but IMO, that isn't good enough, as we are not all experts on this. I do think those red tourmalines that turn brownish are probably not irradiated, but the expensive untreated material might be difficult to tell from the irradiated material, as they are both saturated and shift very little. I have some Nigerian material that doesn't shift much at all, is it nuked????. Towards the end of his page, he states:

"Treatments - It is important to know that a major portion of the cut Rubellite stones on the market have been heated and irradiated. This is a very common practice and is very widely done and often not disclosed in the market, in my opinion.

What the commercial cutting houses do is buy lower color and grades of Tourmaline and cut it. Once it is cut they heat the cut stones to very high temperatures, which depending on the mine, turns the cut Tourmaline stone colorless. Once they have the stones colorless they irradiate (nuke) the stones which makes them turn Rubellite/red. These stones are usually sold by the "Don't ask, don't tell..." method and the treatments are often not even mentioned, unless the customer is educated enough to ask the correct questions.

Note: There are different processes and radiation types that produce different colors, but Rubellite is one of the most commonly irradiated colors.

. . .

Like I said, a lot of the commercial Rubellite available is heated and irradiated. I do not mind the heat, but when you are irradiating a stone you are putting color in that was never there in the first place. I generally do not sell or recommend irradiated stones. Irradiated stones should be considerable less money than a "heat only" or "natural" stone.

Note: Heat only modifies the color of a stone, lightens or heats out an undesirable color. It does not put some thing into the stone that did not already exist in the first place. Heat is some thing that happens in mother nature, so I personally do not find it that much of a problem."

Again, no one has to agree with Jeff, me, or anyone else. Just food for thought.

 

[T L]

Chris Smith replied back to me. I cut my name and email address out of the email for privacy purposes and to comply with PS forum rules. He says there is no way to determine origin or irradiation on red tourmaline, and he's the head gemologist at AGL.

 

[PrecisionGem]

TL I guess at some point you just need to trust someone.

Other wise can you really trust the lab? Labs have made mistakes. Look at the fiasco with the Andesine a few years ago. Wasn't the AGTA sending out reports that this stuff was natural, when in fact it was treated in China? If you think a rough dealer may lie to you, then why not the Lab lie or be wrong? I supposes even if you went to Nigeria and dug up the stone for your self, are you sure that someone in Nigeria didn't really dig it up first, send it off to Thailand to be treated and then bury it again?

I've been out in the bush in Africa standing next to a mud heat dealing with stones. The guy doesn't even have running water, certainly he can treat the stone. But it could be remotely possible he sent the stone to Brazil, had it treated, then sent back to the nearest FEDEX office where he had to walk 75 miles to get to.

Fortunately it's not like anyone will ever be actually hurt by a miss identified stone, not like buying a drug that is tampered with. Not like that would ever happen. Don't drive your self nuts with this, they are all only stones after all, and have absolutely no practical use or value.
Imagine if you were stranded alone on an island, and had of Liz Taylors jewels, after a few days you would trade them all for Big Mac.

 

[T L]

TL I guess at some point you just need to trust someone.

Other wise can you really trust the lab? Labs have made mistakes. Look at the fiasco with the Andesine a few years ago. Wasn't the AGTA sending out reports that this stuff was natural, when in fact it was treated in China? If you think a rough dealer may lie to you, then why not the Lab lie or be wrong? I supposes even if you went to Nigeria and dug up the stone for your self, are you sure that someone in Nigeria didn't really dig it up first, send it off to Thailand to be treated and then bury it again?

I've been out in the bush in Africa standing next to a mud heat dealing with stones. The guy doesn't even have running water, certainly he can treat the stone. But it could be remotely possible he sent the stone to Brazil, had it treated, then sent back to the nearest FEDEX office where he had to walk 75 miles to get to.

Fortunately it's not like anyone will ever be actually hurt by a miss identified stone, not like buying a drug that is tampered with. Not like that would ever happen. Don't drive your self nuts with this, they are all only stones after all, and have absolutely no practical use or value.
Imagine if you were stranded alone on an island, and had of Liz Taylors jewels, after a few days you would trade them all for Big Mac.

Gene,
Yes, labs do make mistakes, but they are the industry standard for the ultimate trusted documentation on a stone. I also don't trust all labs, but there are a few that have high stake reputations, and do work hard to keep those reputations.

Unfortunately, as I confirmed with Chris Smith (AGL) and others, there is no way to detect origin or irradiation, and that's a standing fact, no matter what you want to believe. If people want to trust their vendors only, without lab reports, that's their perogative. I also rarely advise to get a lab report on inexpensive stones, or commonly untreated stones. I only make the exception for corundum, and very expensive gems, such as some of this Oyo material. Also, whenever buying an ultra expensive piece, I would probably get more than one lab report, as you said, labs can make mistakes.

As for your comments about where you get your gems, I'm sorry, but the trade isn't going to say, "Gene Flanigan stood next to a guy digging up a stone in the bush, so it must be all natural and untreated." They look at lab reports, and lab reports, no matter what mistakes the labs have made, are what gives the gem inherent value. I'm not driving myself nuts with this, as I have no intention of buying any red tourmaline in the future. The only thing I really have a problem with in this particular thread is that people are going to fork over potentially thousands of dollars on a stone that's untestable, and some people just don't seem to care about that fact. Would you like to buy something for a great deal more than its potentially worth, and I do think gemstones can have some worth, in particular to the later generations, especially if it was expensive to begin with. That to me is disconcerting, but again, that's the consumer's choice, but I still think it's important to put this information out there as this is a consumer forum.

BTW, Liz Taylor's jewels went to AGL, and Chris wrote extensive documentation on some very important key pieces.