Padparadscha questions

[Kashmira]

I have been looking at some pictures of padparadscha sapphires (just for fun!) now have some questions:

* I realize that padparadschas seem to vary A LOT in colour- from very very pale to a quite "hot" pink-orange colour. What shade is considered to be the "best"? What is the perfect "mix" of pink/orange?

* From where do the "best" padparadscha sapphires come? Ceylon or Tanzania? Are padparadscha sapphires found also in other countires?

* If a padparadscha is heated, does it have a big impact of its value?

* Can anyone show pictures of a "perfect" coloured padparadscha?

* Can anyone show pictures of a sapphire that is too pink for being a padparadscha? (but still pretty close in colour)

Also if someone could let me know how I can insert a picture here I would be very happy!

I am sorry for all "newbie" questions!

 

[Gailey]

Kashmira, there are several Pad owners here, who I am sure will chime in when they see your questions. Meanwhile, use the search function and you will bring up a lot of threads and information.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 8/21/2009 12:12:58 PM
Author:Kashmira
I have been looking at some pictures of padparadscha sapphires (just for fun!) now have some questions:

* I realize that padparadschas seem to vary A LOT in colour- from very very pale to a quite ''hot'' pink-orange colour. What shade is considered to be the ''best''? What is the perfect ''mix'' of pink/orange?

* From where do the ''best'' padparadscha sapphires come? Ceylon or Tanzania? Are padparadscha sapphires found also in other countires?

* If a padparadscha is heated, does it have a big impact of its value?

* Can anyone show pictures of a ''perfect'' coloured padparadscha?

* Can anyone show pictures of a sapphire that is too pink for being a padparadscha? (but still pretty close in colour)

Also if someone could let me know how I can insert a picture here I would be very happy!

I am sorry for all ''newbie'' questions!

I''m going to attempt to answer this from a novice consumer perspective. I''d be interested to see how off I am!

"Perfect" shade - I''m sure there is a technical definition somewhere, but I think perfect is pretty darn subjective.
"Best" pad origin - depends what you define as best. I''ve read that some still consider those from Ceylon as the only true pad.
"Heated" - I am assuming you are talking about normal, low heat. Yes it impacts it (non heated pads are expensive), but I think color is the bigger factor. Not sure if a "great" color heated pad would be less than a "meh" unheated, all other things being equal.

As far as attaching pics, just hit "attach file" which is at the upper left corner. Browse, attach pic and upload. It will need a unique name and be under 100KB.

 

[ma re]

To answer some of your newbie questions (which you''re more than welcome to ask cause there are a lot of folks here who''d be more than happy to answer)

:

- a perfect mix of pink and orange is about 50/50, but colors are often blended together so it''s hard to judge; a perfect shade is medium-light, so light and gentle, but not overly so
- heating can impact the price of a padparadscha significantly, especially in larger stones of good clarity
- THIS or THIS is pretty close to a perfect color
- THIS and THIS is too pink (while THIS is too orange) - but all are, more or less, close

That''s about as much as I can help this time

 

[Barrett]

-of course purist say and i also agree that the best pads come from ceylon
-personally i think the best pad is the 100ct. one in the Nat. hist. museum..some folks think it has a little to much orange but persoanlly i think it''s the best..for some reason I can''t find a pic on the net of it
-the rpoblem is for being the rarest of all sapphires there sure are a lot around...to many folks want to call there stone a padparadscha..the pink and orange both have to been seen readily and noticeable..personally I don''t think you can or should call a pink sapphire with what looks like a touch of an orangish color or an orange sapphire with what looks like a slight pink under tone a pad..but that is debatable..sort of like when to call a ruby a ruby or just a pink sapphire

 

[Barrett]

can anyone find a pic of that 100ct. one in the nat. hist. museum?

 

[Kashmira]

Thank you for all replies!

So is it correct that padparadschas from Ceylon are the only "true" padparadschas?

I''ll try to insert a picture (but I have not yet figured out how to do it... I think). Anyway if the picture shows, would that colour be considered as too pink?

 

[chrono]

1. As far as I know the “best” is supposed to be an equal mixture of pink and orange that is well blended together.
2. Many say the best comes from Sri Lanka (Ceylon) but to me it should be judged based on the individual stone, not origin.
3. An unheated stone will cost more but not necessarily look better than something gently heated.
One thing to be very careful about padparadschas is beryllium treatment. It is something I will not accept although many others will if it is disclosed and priced accordingly.

 

[ma re]

Date: 8/21/2009 1:01:54 PM
Author: Kashmira

Thank you for all replies!

So is it correct that padparadschas from Ceylon are the only ''true'' padparadschas?

I''ll try to insert a picture (but I have not yet figured out how to do it... I think). Anyway if the picture shows, would that colour be considered as too pink?

I''d describe that color as light orangy-red, so technically there is some orange in it, and there is some pink in it (light red = pink), but the colors should be clearly separated i.e. you should be able to distinguish between them with the naked eye. This is more of a red with a bit of orange and it reminds of some spinels and garnets (malayas).

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

Very interesting thread. I am amazed at the increase in the level of knowledge over the past few years. Some excellent responses.

Bear in mind the term "delicate" I stress it in the chapter on Padparadscha in my book. In this context, delicate refers to light to medium tones of pinkish-orange to orangy-pink. At darker tonal levels, pink begins to become red and orange begins to go brown.

The stone I sourced for TravelingGal is, I think, exceptional. As for the Morgan Padparadscha, the one in the Natural History Museum, New York and pictured in Secrets; it has a definite yellowish secondary and although some Sri Lankan dealers call that Padparadscha, I don''t. As for "Ideal" mix? For once I would agree that that is very much a personal call.

 

[Kashmira]

Date: 8/21/2009 1:16:15 PM
Author: ma re

Date: 8/21/2009 1:01:54 PM
Author: Kashmira

Thank you for all replies!

So is it correct that padparadschas from Ceylon are the only ''true'' padparadschas?

I''ll try to insert a picture (but I have not yet figured out how to do it... I think). Anyway if the picture shows, would that colour be considered as too pink?

I''d describe that color as light orangy-red, so technically there is some orange in it, and there is some pink in it (light red = pink), but the colors should be clearly separated i.e. you should be able to distinguish between them with the naked eye. This is more of a red with a bit of orange and it reminds of some spinels and garnets (malayas).

First a big "THANK YOU" for everyone who has answered!

Would this orangy-red gem still be considered a "parparadscha"? I found this (I hope that it is ok to link to a gem- if not please let me know) on the webpage of The Natural Sapphire Company and I cannot see a huge difference in terms of colour but on the other hand my eyes are not trained for this.

Anyway the parparadscha from NCS is 3.09 ct and comes from Ceylon and it is not treated in any way according to the description. The other "padparascha" is from Tanzania, is 3.42 ct and it is "heated". Could the colour of the "first" parparadscha, its origin and the fact that it has been heated explain a huge difference in price (and I mean HUGE!)?

 

[Barrett]

don't be fooled by the name..like i said everyone wants to call there stone a pad..the one you just linked is a pink sapphire..I see no orange in there..I see light pink and a darker pink(red)...your eyes do not have to be trained to see orange or pink....remember would they rather sell a pink sapphire for X amount of dollars or a "padparadscha" for this much more if they can tack the name on..a.padparadscha is a fine-tuned stone..it has a certain criteria that must be met..of course..

 

[Kashmira]

Date: 8/21/2009 3:05:10 PM
Author: amethystguy
don''t be fooled by the name..like i said everyone wants to call there stone a pad..the one you just linked is a pink sapphire..I see no orange in there..I see light pink and a darker pink(red)...your eyes do not have to be trained to see orange or pink....remember would they rather sell a pink sapphire for X amount of dollars or a ''padparadscha'' for this much more if they can tack the name on..a.padparadscha is a fine-tuned stone..it has a certain criteria that must be met..of course..

Do you mean that the one from NSC is a pink sapphire? Still I don''t understand what explains a difference in price between the two sapphires of almost 16 kUSD but on the other hand I don''t understand some of the prices for "padparascha sapphires" on Ebay either...

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Pads are originally what brought me to PS! I love them, especially the one in Linda's avatar.

As far as I'm aware, the "ideal" shade is a light to medium toned orangey-pink that looks soft. Stones that seem slightly more pink than orange seem to be preferred by consumers though. The recent stones from Africa have been said to be too "loud" of a color compared to the ones from Ceylon (and some argue that only ones from Ceylon can be called true pads). I personally think a stone that's too "hot" in color doesn't quite fit the bill since I associate padparadscha's with delicate colors.

I bought my pad from NSC (see avatar), but I would warn that their photos can often be misleading, and they do in-house certification so even if they call it a pad, it might not be. If you buy a large one from them, I'd do it contingent on a AGS certification. Mine was small so I just used my own best judgment after seeing it in person.

Also, I was always under the impression that there shouldn't be distinct areas of orange and pink, but rather an even blend throughout the stone that gave off flashes of both pink and orange.

 

[chrono]

I would not touch any eBay padparadscha with a 10 foot pole unless it is free. There are too many fakes, lookalikes, photoshopping and undisclosed treatments that it’s not a good place to gauge pricing.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 8/21/2009 3:54:06 PM
Author: Chrono
I would not touch any eBay padparadscha with a 10 foot pole unless it is free. There are too many fakes, lookalikes, photoshopping and undisclosed treatments that it’s not a good place to gauge pricing.

True. There are even American sellers who buy gems from Thai dealers that are most likely Beryllium treated, and then resell them at higher prices since a lot of consumers are more likely to trust US sellers. And Beryllium treatment is ofter just lumped in with heat treatment (fyi Beryllium treated "pads" are not real pads, and sell for very cheap).

 

[chrono]

To add to MTG’s post above, BE treatment is usually a special coating that is applied to pink sapphires which undergoes treatment to let the colour seep into the stone. It is in effect, dying the stone a different colour.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 8/21/2009 4:03:25 PM
Author: Chrono
To add to MTG’s post above, BE treatment is usually a special coating that is applied to pink sapphires which undergoes treatment to let the colour seep into the stone. It is in effect, dying the stone a different colour.

They''ve also been using it lately to dye the sapphires colors other than pad, so that''s not the only color suspect

 

[Barrett]

i guess when held side by side with a true pink sapphire that NCS one would seem to have a slight orangish color to it....but...if someone showed me that stone by itself and said what is this I would say pink sapphire..the ones ma re linked are no doubt a pad..if someone showed it to you by itself you would instantly know what it is

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

You should always hesitate before commenting on an image. That said, I agree with Amguy, I would call the NSC stone an "almost" pad if that is truly the color.

A couple of years ago the Lab Harmonization Committee (LMHC) put together a definition of padparadscha sapphire. Problem is, they used a printed chart developed by Franck Notari, not much better than a series of opaque paint chips. This is a truly problematic way to define a color range. In fact, if you go strictly by the new definition,

As proof of this, Richard Hughes did an analysis and discovered that the magnificent 20.84 carat padparadscha that sold a couple of years ago at Christies for the highest price ever paid for a padparadscha, falls outside the parameters as defined by the chart adopted by the LMHC. Most gem labs belong to the LMHC.

 

[zeolite]

PS buyers should be aware that many vendors will call a sapphire a padparadscha, when it does not qualify, just to make more money on the sale of the gem. They are relying on the ignorance of the buyer. And it takes quite a bit of experience and much viewing of gems to gain an understanding of what true padparadscha color is.

I could begin by saying what is not a padparadscha color: yellow or purple or red is not a padparadscha color. It must have orange and pink and must be light to medium light tone.

The definitive article on padparadscha was printed in the Spring 1983 Gems &Gemology, pages 30-36 by Robert Crowningshield. Many fine photographs were presented here to illustrate the color. I quote from page 35:

“It is GIA’s opinion that this color range should be limited to light to medium tones of pinkish orange to orange pink hues. Lacking delicacy, the dark brownish orange or even medium brownish orange tones of corundum from East Africa would not qualify under this definition. Deep orangy red sapphires, likewise, would not qualify as fitting the term padparadscha.”

My comment: notice GIA’s precise words “pinkish orange to orange pink”. Pinkish orange means both pink and orange, but more orange than pink. Orange pink means equal parts orange and pink. But GIA does not mention orangy pink. They are implying and I agree, when you have more pink than orange, it does not qualify as padparadscha.

The first picture that Ma Re shows, is a magnificent 30 ct pad, surround by white diamonds and blue sapphires. That picture is shown in the 1983 article, where GIA says:

“This 30 ct pinkish orange sapphire was believed by many observers from both GIA and the trade to agree with their perception of the term padparadscha.”

But the GIA picture is printed at the correct tone. Ma Re’s link shows the correct hue, but the tone is too dark in that link. I say this, because that ring came up at a Sotheby auction, early 1980’s ? and I saw the ring, picked it up, and examined it closely and with a 10X loupe. It has an eye visible inclusion in one corner of the crown.

The reserve price was $250,000, and I very seriously considered buying it. I would have had to sell my house and move into an apartment to buy it. It did not meet reserve and did not sell (at least not at the auction).

I agree with Rich W. that the Morgan Padparadscha, while huge and beautiful, does not meet our understanding of padparadscha. I’ve seen it several times. I think this is because the definition was wider, more elastic, and less precise at that earlier time.

Below are two pictures (four gems) of pink orange sapphires from my collection. All are from East Africa. I held the first gem (shield cut) right next to a picture of the 30 ct Sotheby pad, and it matched perfectly in color and in tone. I believe the first two gems do meet the very strict definition of padparadscha. These two gems are much lighter in tone, with less brown, than the 3 African padparadschas pictured in the 1983 article. PS readers are welcome to disagree with me.

 

[zeolite]

The third and fourth gems show more intense color. The third gem (emerald cut) I would classify as a marginal padparadscha, since it has more pink and the color is more intense. The fourth gem (octagon cut), quite beautiful in color, is too intense to qualify as a padparadscha. It was an AGTA Cutting Edge winner. Many gem dealers would call it a pad, just to try to sell it at a higher price.

Keep in mind that everywhere in the colored stone world, more color saturation means higher price. Padparadscha is the only colored stone where less saturation means higher price!

 

[ma re]

Date: 8/21/2009 2:55:01 PM
Author: Kashmira

First a big 'THANK YOU' for everyone who has answered!

Would this orangy-red gem still be considered a 'parparadscha'? I found this (I hope that it is ok to link to a gem- if not please let me know) on the webpage of The Natural Sapphire Company and I cannot see a huge difference in terms of colour but on the other hand my eyes are not trained for this.

Anyway the parparadscha from NCS is 3.09 ct and comes from Ceylon and it is not treated in any way according to the description. The other 'padparascha' is from Tanzania, is 3.42 ct and it is 'heated'. Could the colour of the 'first' parparadscha, its origin and the fact that it has been heated explain a huge difference in price (and I mean HUGE!)?

The stone from the photo you posted (Tanzanian) is really too bright and too pink to be called padparadscha. And this vibrancy of color, together with the fact that it's been treated, leads me to believe that it wasn't just heated, but BE treated. That treatment can make a quite crapy-looking stone (that doesen't even have to be either pink or orange from what I know) look amazing, but often too amazing, and that's what gives many of them away - along with the very affordable, too good to be true, price. The NSC stone looks more pastel and delicate and, as explained, that's desired when it comes to pads, plus the stone is not treated in any way. So all that CAN explain a huge price difference, especially if we take into account that untreated, delicate-looking stones of a nice shade, size and cut are very rare, and that the location also adds a premium to the price. But I still think the NSC stone is a bit too pink and not orange enough, to be called a pad, so I'd hesitate on buying it as such (tone and saturation are very nice, but the hue is not right IMO). BTW, the color difference between the two is obvious, but not too much so, therefore you might have a harder time noticing it.

P. S. In my opinion, location should not have anything to do with the use of the term when it comes to pads. Some (sellers) would like it that only Ceylon stones should be allowed to bear the name, but such proposals are pretty much absurd. It's similar to the case of paraiba tourmaline, where there is a debate going on whether or not stones from outside of Paraiba should be called paraiba, as that's the name of the region in Brazil that yielded some of the finest neon-looking, turquoise colored tourmalines. But padparadscha is not the name of a region/location/mine, but a word for a lotus flower, so eventhough there is some premium for stones from Ceylon, there's no reason why a stone from Tanzania or anywhere else shouldn't be called padparadscha, if it is of the right color.

 

[Nomsdeplume]

When I first found PS, padparadschas were what brought me here.
It can be tough to identify a true pad. I found this picture from AGTA. It might help you.
http://www.agta.org/services/images/photos/sapphirepadparadscha001.jpg

 

[Kashmira]

Date: 8/22/2009 3:32:33 AM
Author: ma re

Date: 8/21/2009 2:55:01 PM
Author: Kashmira

First a big ''THANK YOU'' for everyone who has answered!

Would this orangy-red gem still be considered a ''parparadscha''? I found this (I hope that it is ok to link to a gem- if not please let me know) on the webpage of The Natural Sapphire Company and I cannot see a huge difference in terms of colour but on the other hand my eyes are not trained for this.

Anyway the parparadscha from NCS is 3.09 ct and comes from Ceylon and it is not treated in any way according to the description. The other ''padparascha'' is from Tanzania, is 3.42 ct and it is ''heated''. Could the colour of the ''first'' parparadscha, its origin and the fact that it has been heated explain a huge difference in price (and I mean HUGE!)?

The stone from the photo you posted (Tanzanian) is really too bright and too pink to be called padparadscha. And this vibrancy of color, together with the fact that it''s been treated, leads me to believe that it wasn''t just heated, but BE treated. That treatment can make a quite crapy-looking stone (that doesen''t even have to be either pink or orange from what I know) look amazing, but often too amazing, and that''s what gives many of them away - along with the very affordable, too good to be true, price. The NSC stone looks more pastel and delicate and, as explained, that''s desired when it comes to pads, plus the stone is not treated in any way. So all that CAN explain a huge price difference, especially if we take into account that untreated, delicate-looking stones of a nice shade, size and cut are very rare, and that the location also adds a premium to the price. But I still think the NSC stone is a bit too pink and not orange enough, to be called a pad, so I''d hesitate on buying it as such (tone and saturation are very nice, but the hue is not right IMO). BTW, the color difference between the two is obvious, but not too much so, therefore you might have a harder time noticing it.

P. S. In my opinion, location should not have anything to do with the use of the term when it comes to pads. Some (sellers) would like it that only Ceylon stones should be allowed to bear the name, but such proposals are pretty much absurd. It''s similar to the case of paraiba tourmaline, where there is a debate going on whether or not stones from outside of Paraiba should be called paraiba, as that''s the name of the region in Brazil that yielded some of the finest neon-looking, turquoise colored tourmalines. But padparadscha is not the name of a region/location/mine, but a word for a lotus flower, so eventhough there is some premium for stones from Ceylon, there''s no reason why a stone from Tanzania or anywhere else shouldn''t be called padparadscha, if it is of the right color.

Even if the price of this sapphire was considerably higher than of the ones sold on Ebay I guess it still was "too good to be true". There was no guarantee that it hadn''t been BE treated (I checked with the company selling this sapphire after having read all replies in this thread). I thought that colour was a "padparadscha colour" but now I know better!

Once again THANK YOU all! I have learnt a lot by reading all your replies!

 

[AustenNut]

Wow, this thread has certainly been an education. When I first started looking into sapphires I was interested in the Padparaschas. I didn't realize, however, that the more uniform appearance is what is considered "correct." I liked seeing the mix of pink and orange separated, but within the same stone, rather than a pinky-orange color that was evenly colored throughout. So does that mean that this heated Ceylon stone from TNSC is totally overpriced at $4400/ct? TNSC's padhttp://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Padparadscha/PA211/Cushion/stoneid=PA211

ETA: Sorry for the huge pict. Didn't know it'd be that big! (Nor do I know how to size down a pict, or make my link look pretty.)

 

[Barrett]

Yes...see i agree with austenut..i like the mix of orange and pink seperated to a certain extent(some more pink reflecting back at you and some more orange reflecting back out at you from different facets or intervals of the stone) and not a SOLID blending together of the colors..that way is unique looking to me where as a blending of the two just looks like any ole' sapphire to me(that is sort of the feeling i get) it's just a pinkish-orange sapphire and not a pink AND orange sapphire which to me stands out more...if that makes any sense..just my personal opinion but i know it doesn't fit the bill with what a pad is to some degrees

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 8/21/2009 1:30:31 PM
Author: Richard W. Wise
All,

Very interesting thread. I am amazed at the increase in the level of knowledge over the past few years. Some excellent responses.

Bear in mind the term ''delicate'' I stress it in the chapter on Padparadscha in my book. In this context, delicate refers to light to medium tones of pinkish-orange to orangy-pink. At darker tonal levels, pink begins to become red and orange begins to go brown.

The stone I sourced for TravelingGal is, I think, exceptional. As for the Morgan Padparadscha, the one in the Natural History Museum, New York and pictured in Secrets; it has a definite yellowish secondary and although some Sri Lankan dealers call that Padparadscha, I don''t. As for ''Ideal'' mix? For once I would agree that that is very much a personal call.

For reference, here it is. Please note the rough is just for comparison and not my stone.

 

[Kashmira]

Date: 8/22/2009 3:54:46 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 8/21/2009 1:30:31 PM
Author: Richard W. Wise
All,

Very interesting thread. I am amazed at the increase in the level of knowledge over the past few years. Some excellent responses.

Bear in mind the term ''delicate'' I stress it in the chapter on Padparadscha in my book. In this context, delicate refers to light to medium tones of pinkish-orange to orangy-pink. At darker tonal levels, pink begins to become red and orange begins to go brown.

The stone I sourced for TravelingGal is, I think, exceptional. As for the Morgan Padparadscha, the one in the Natural History Museum, New York and pictured in Secrets; it has a definite yellowish secondary and although some Sri Lankan dealers call that Padparadscha, I don''t. As for ''Ideal'' mix? For once I would agree that that is very much a personal call.

For reference, here it is. Please note the rough is just for comparison and not my stone.

This is beautiful!

 

[Sagebrush]

Zeolite,

In the famous G&G article, Crowninsheild argues that East African gems, specifically Umba River padparadscha do not qualify. I respectfully disagree, though most have the requisite brownish mask that the famous gemologist refers to, some do not. One of the finest I ever sourced I bought in Nairobi and it had all the characteristics of a fine padparadscha. I think yours are quite lovely.