strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Parents versus Military Recruiters
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strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Men willing to fight will always be needed as long as there is evil in the world.
"At Auschwitz people died of huger because they had come to the camps already weakened. The people who had died were thrown or stacked at the very end of the barracks row underneath the watchtower. They were stacked like cordwood, naked, without dignity. Nobody to close their eyes. They were stacked four feet high. Every twenty-four hours a cart came. People were simply grabbed by the hand and foot and tossed on there. We knew they were taken to the crematory to be incinerated, but we still had no knowledge of the gas chambers and that people were killed or gassed in such numbers as they were."
That is the evil my father faught against
without good men willing to put everything on the line it could happen here, today, tomorrow, 10 years from now it could happen.
"At Auschwitz people died of huger because they had come to the camps already weakened. The people who had died were thrown or stacked at the very end of the barracks row underneath the watchtower. They were stacked like cordwood, naked, without dignity. Nobody to close their eyes. They were stacked four feet high. Every twenty-four hours a cart came. People were simply grabbed by the hand and foot and tossed on there. We knew they were taken to the crematory to be incinerated, but we still had no knowledge of the gas chambers and that people were killed or gassed in such numbers as they were."
That is the evil my father faught against
without good men willing to put everything on the line it could happen here, today, tomorrow, 10 years from now it could happen.
Rank Amateur
Brilliant_Rock
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We agree that there is some evil which requires bravery and resistance. That is *NOT* the same argument as "war is the ultimate game". In my opinion war should never be entered into lightly. Your quotation above is about Auschwitz, a concentration camp run by the Germans during World war II. Had the United States been fighting against Germany's policy of genocide the US would have entered the war prior to 1941. Remember: World War II started in 1939 if one doesn't count Anschluss or the taking apart of Czechoslovakia.
I am against genocide. That doesn't mean that I support every war, no matter what the motives of the government on entering it. One *SHOULD* be balancing the hell of war against the genocide.
My father was there, too, by the way. In France as it was liberated. My uncle was at sea as a medic to the marines during D-Day and then was transferred to the Pacific (China) where he tended marines on the ground in great danger. My great-uncle was part of the D-day invasion in the infantry and remembered the apple orchards and a French woman offering them milk. My mother's first cousin was killed aboard ship...at 17, I believe.
Another thought: World War I was hell on earth for the soldiers, but it was a war that largely left the civilians alive. When do we decide that civilian loss of life (in any amount) is worth removing a dictator? I am not saying I should *never* be done, but I think it should be done only after great deliberation. And in the United States I think it should be done by Congress after the president has presented them with true and accurate facts about the situation.
We need thoughtful and deliberate people in power, not macho boys who have never been in war or cowboys. (And that is because it is *NOT* a game. Real people ARE harmed in it.)
Deborah
Edited to explain that Auschwitz was created during World War II in case some young people who didn't enjoy history class are reading this thread!
Blue824
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I think two issues are getting confused...one is whether the military should be allowed to send recruiters to high schools, the other is whether we should be in a war right now.
If we were not in a war right now and a recruiter was acting the same way, we''d probably never hear about it. Plus, I mean, recruiters have been in high schools for how long?? At least when I was in hs, and that was pre-Bush & No Child Left Behind. I personally am opposed to the war with Iraq. However, I had no control over that...neither does anyone as a parent (unless your name is perhaps George or Barbara). The parent has control to the extent that they can express their views to their children, empower them with an education and the abilities to make their own decisions.
I disagree with the war. I did not support it from day one. I hate hearing about fatalities every day, and I wish everyone could just come home...The fact that I oppose the war has nothing to do with the fact that when you ask "should they be allowed to distribute materials to high school students" you have to remove yourself from emotion and just look at the core of the issue: To stop the distribution of pamphlets or literature would be against the First Amendment, regardless of your views. Start restricting constitutional rights and no longer will we live in a "free" country.
If we were not in a war right now and a recruiter was acting the same way, we''d probably never hear about it. Plus, I mean, recruiters have been in high schools for how long?? At least when I was in hs, and that was pre-Bush & No Child Left Behind. I personally am opposed to the war with Iraq. However, I had no control over that...neither does anyone as a parent (unless your name is perhaps George or Barbara). The parent has control to the extent that they can express their views to their children, empower them with an education and the abilities to make their own decisions.
I disagree with the war. I did not support it from day one. I hate hearing about fatalities every day, and I wish everyone could just come home...The fact that I oppose the war has nothing to do with the fact that when you ask "should they be allowed to distribute materials to high school students" you have to remove yourself from emotion and just look at the core of the issue: To stop the distribution of pamphlets or literature would be against the First Amendment, regardless of your views. Start restricting constitutional rights and no longer will we live in a "free" country.
tanuki
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MissAva
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I would.
The military has been a huge blessing for my family, thanks to that my grandfather whose parents had not even a elementary school education was able to go to college and became an aero-engineer. He served in the Koren War and Vietnam. My father was able to go to medical school. Why becuase the military pays for those who cant afford to go to school. The milatry can a be a family that not everyone has. But to say that at 18 we are nto old enough to make decisions... sorry but we have to anyway, do we go to college, if so where? Drink, drugs, sex, lie steal cheat? These are things we deal with everyday. If the child you gave birth to is not capable of making decisions at 18 then that is sad, that doesnt mean they dont still look for advice but if need be at 18 you ought to be able to live your own life.
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I, at least, am not at all confused about there being two issues under discussion: military recruiters on campus versus war. There happens to be an area of overlap, however!
As to the view that a stark constitutional right is at issue: you are quite wrong. There is a history of it being unlawful for anyone to to distribute literature (let alone sign people up as soldiers which is NOT a speech issue!) in certain locales. No one can distribute literature within a certain number of feet of a polling place.
Deborah
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I stand corrected.
Since I have never given birth to a child, I guess I am off the hook. That is fortunate, because although I well know that most 18 year-olds are quite capable of making decisions, I think that they are equally capable of making stupid decisions. Since they believe they are immortal, they do things like drink and drive and enlist in the marines with far too little understanding of the consequences.
Yes, older adults also make mistakes, but not as many in this area (risk-taking). That is why one has to be a millionaire to buy car insurance for a boy between 16 and 26. Insurance companies KNOW that their judgment is impaired. And boys' insurance premiums are far higher than girls' premiums for a reason. As I said: testosterone is a menace to society.
Deborah
Blue824
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Polling regulations are in effect to protect the voter. The materials may be distributed, they just must be a certain distance so voters do not feel threatened or afraid from voting their opinion. Therefore people are still allowed to distribute it. And just in terms of the more impressionable people....18-25 year olds have the lowest voter turn out, so who are they worried about changing their minds with out the knowledge.
Not every rule or regulation is fair. I mean, if life was perfect we wouldnt have to worry about an army, but we do. I'd rather people sign up by choice than a draft. I think that article is a rare instance. I asked my brother and 4 cousins....their schools range from urban, to middle class suburban to upper class suburban. They all said there's sometimes a poster or sometimes a table set up, but like no one pays attention. They're there for a like a day and then gone the next.
I went to a private university and I met numerous students who would not have been able to afford such an education with out the help of the military. They were all proud of their choices, that may not be how everyone feels...but I guess I've seen the good it can do and therefore don't have a problem with people making up their own mind.
MissAva
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I think you make an intreasting point however, I think younger people pay higher insurence rates because they have been driving for less time. As for the gender differences that varies from company to company. I was not refering to you I dont know who here has children and who does not. However a good parent teahces a child responsiblity for their actions at a young age. If at a young age you are taught good vs bad, right vs wrong, and the consequences of your actions by the time you are 18 you will be allright. Personally I think you are in less danger working in the miltary then you are on the average college campus.
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I do agree that children from homes with loving parents who have made appropriate demands on their children's love in order to socialize them generally have children who know "right from wrong" ( at least as far as the *parents* knows "right" from "wrong").
I am not sure I agree with you that "a good parent teaches a child resposnibilty" early in life. I think the process of socializing a child is far more complex than that and the acquisition of "responsibility" cannot be taught like the abc's.
I do have a child. I am not at all worried about her ability to tell right from wrong. I *am* worried about the many lost souls who do not have the incredible benefit of having me for a mother, however. Those are the ones who might enlist because they are young and impressionable and have no real idea of what enlisting will mean. The ones who still believe "The old Lie: dulce et decorum est pro patria mori."
Deborah
MissAva
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What about those who want to serve their country becuase it is the right thing to do? What about those who recognize what agreat gift the military is to a country and choose to serve? I dont think an 18yr old choosing to serve means they dont understand what it means, so do some dont but the oppertunity should be available.
movie zombie
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either the 18 year old is old enough to be making all the decisions or isn''t old enough to make any of them: military, voting, drinking, driving, marriage, abortion, etc. can''t have it both ways: old enough to make one decision but not the others.
personally, i believe the goal of a parent should be to raise a child capable of making all of these decision for his/herself.
peace, movie zombie
personally, i believe the goal of a parent should be to raise a child capable of making all of these decision for his/herself.
peace, movie zombie
hoorray
Ideal_Rock
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I haven''t read through this whole thread, but I have to agree with Matadora on this point here. DH dropped out of high school, and was fortunately bright enough to realize he had to do someting, so he joined the Air Force. He was and extreme, but typical 17 year old boy -- full of fire and rash ideas, but he was proud to join up, and he didn''t do it because he was impressionable. He knew it would be good for him. In fact, he got out once after some number of years and then re-enlisted. The military was very good to him. They helped him get his GED, and then they put him through undergrad and graduate school. He served for 24 years, during Vietnam and during peaceful times. He retired and was so well trained and educated that he was able to move into a completely new career and be successful at that for another 15 or so years. He raised his kids while in the military, and they are incredibly well rounded, well grounded, and well educated, successful people. For many people joining the military is not a mistake made because you are impressionable. Instead, it is the vehicle to help them get somewhere that they may not have the resouces or help to get to otherwise. And they do it in the company of a pretty impressive caliber of people, IMO.
Thanks for sharing your husband''s hands on experience. What I take away from it & my own perception is that the military can open many doors & can be a *career* in itself. Historically it is a path that one can choose at 18. I see nothing wrong with exposing an 18 year old to this career path. But then, I remember having career day in which many different careers were exposed.
njc
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If an 18 yr old is "incapable" of making a decision like joining the military, then they shouldnt be able to vote. Who knows who they would vote for right? They shouldnt be able to drive. Who knows what decision they would make behind the wheel of a car... they could KILL someone or themselves! And since they are too young to know what to do with their life, they shouldnt go off to college either. Funny thing, i think most kids are still 17 when they head off to college... buts that okay because the parents (or government loans) are paying for them right?
One thing comes to mind when i read this. What about kids that live in small little towns where the only job opportunity is at the local mill or factory or mine? Those arent exactly "safe" jobs. Not everyone gets to work in an office behind a computer. And what about the kid from the bad area of town? If they dont get out of their situation, they could be killed from drugs and violence. Or what about the kids that have or will be turned out on their own on their 18th birthday with no more parental support? Not everyone has been so lucky to have wonderful, caring parents.
MINE!!
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movie zombie
Super_Ideal_Rock
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a rather timely article given the topic of this thread:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/paynter/227497_paynter08.html
peace, movie zombie
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/paynter/227497_paynter08.html
peace, movie zombie
Rank Amateur
Brilliant_Rock
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movie zombie
Super_Ideal_Rock
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this is what the army has done regarding recruiting ''fraud'':
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/20/national/main696991.shtml
peace, movie zombie
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/20/national/main696991.shtml
peace, movie zombie
rubydick
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Thanks for the link, MZ.
This is an excerpt from the article.
"And, amidst the criticism of cut corners and threats by recruiters, CBS News Correspondent Jim Acosta reports that a little-known provision in the federal No Child Left Behind law gives these recruiters a secret weapon when aiming to recruit high schoolers, and catch the attention of students as young as 14.
To set up tables inside public high schools, a recruiter doesn''t even need a permission slip. What frightens some parents is that the law also gives them access to each student''s personal data, including address and phone number. "
We have been discussing the recruiters, but not "No Child Left Behind". The Bush administration, in its wisdom, managed to get recruiters into schools without having to spend a dime helping to educate any children. Where were our legislators sleeping when this bill became law? It was passed as a totally unfunded mandate. Were the Democratic congressmen and Senators trading with Bush so that he got those recruiters into schools while they got a mandate with no money? I don''t want to send them to negotiate anything else for me, thanks!
Educators are wracking their brains with how to pay for all the things they are ordered to do with, "No Child Left Behind". Remember, this President doesn''t like to tax his super-wealthy friends. So he gives orders to poor communities and let''s his super-wealthy friends have tax cuts rather than give those communities any money to carry out the orders.
Deborah
This is an excerpt from the article.
"And, amidst the criticism of cut corners and threats by recruiters, CBS News Correspondent Jim Acosta reports that a little-known provision in the federal No Child Left Behind law gives these recruiters a secret weapon when aiming to recruit high schoolers, and catch the attention of students as young as 14.
To set up tables inside public high schools, a recruiter doesn''t even need a permission slip. What frightens some parents is that the law also gives them access to each student''s personal data, including address and phone number. "
We have been discussing the recruiters, but not "No Child Left Behind". The Bush administration, in its wisdom, managed to get recruiters into schools without having to spend a dime helping to educate any children. Where were our legislators sleeping when this bill became law? It was passed as a totally unfunded mandate. Were the Democratic congressmen and Senators trading with Bush so that he got those recruiters into schools while they got a mandate with no money? I don''t want to send them to negotiate anything else for me, thanks!
Educators are wracking their brains with how to pay for all the things they are ordered to do with, "No Child Left Behind". Remember, this President doesn''t like to tax his super-wealthy friends. So he gives orders to poor communities and let''s his super-wealthy friends have tax cuts rather than give those communities any money to carry out the orders.
Deborah
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Here is an excerpt from an Op-ed piece in today's "The New York Times".
"With the situation in Iraq deteriorating and the willingness of Americans to serve in the armed forces declining, a little-known Army publication called the 'School Recruiting Program Handbook' is becoming increasingly important, and controversial.
The handbook is the recruiter's bible, the essential guide for those who have to go into the nation's high schools and round up warm bodies to fill the embarrassingly skimpy ranks of the Army's basic training units.
The handbook declares forthrightly, 'The goal is school ownership that can only lead to a greater number of Army enlistments.'
What I was not able to find in the handbook was anything remotely like the startlingly frank comments of a sergeant at Fort Benning, Ga., who was quoted in the May 30 issue of The Army Times. He was addressing troops in the seventh week of basic training, and the paper reported the scene as follows:
' "Does anybody know what posthumous means?" Staff Sgt. Andre Allen asked the 150 infantrymen-in-training, members of F Company, 1st Battalion, 19th Infantry Regiment.
'A few hands went up, but he answered his own question.
'"It means after death. Some of you are going to get medals that way," he said matter-of-factly, underscoring the possibility that some of them would be sent to combat and not return.
That's the honest message recruits get once they're in. The approach recommended by the recruiting handbook is somewhat different. It's much softer. Recruiters trying to sign up high school students are urged to schmooze, schmooze, schmooze.'
Military Recruiters
Deborah
"With the situation in Iraq deteriorating and the willingness of Americans to serve in the armed forces declining, a little-known Army publication called the 'School Recruiting Program Handbook' is becoming increasingly important, and controversial.
The handbook is the recruiter's bible, the essential guide for those who have to go into the nation's high schools and round up warm bodies to fill the embarrassingly skimpy ranks of the Army's basic training units.
The handbook declares forthrightly, 'The goal is school ownership that can only lead to a greater number of Army enlistments.'
What I was not able to find in the handbook was anything remotely like the startlingly frank comments of a sergeant at Fort Benning, Ga., who was quoted in the May 30 issue of The Army Times. He was addressing troops in the seventh week of basic training, and the paper reported the scene as follows:
' "Does anybody know what posthumous means?" Staff Sgt. Andre Allen asked the 150 infantrymen-in-training, members of F Company, 1st Battalion, 19th Infantry Regiment.
'A few hands went up, but he answered his own question.
'"It means after death. Some of you are going to get medals that way," he said matter-of-factly, underscoring the possibility that some of them would be sent to combat and not return.
That's the honest message recruits get once they're in. The approach recommended by the recruiting handbook is somewhat different. It's much softer. Recruiters trying to sign up high school students are urged to schmooze, schmooze, schmooze.'
Military Recruiters
Deborah
MissAva
Ideal_Rock
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strmrdr
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Something I want to comment on.
I always found the Army, Navy , Air Force and Marine recruiters to be top notch, honest and up front.
The guard and reserve recruiters were less upfront.
They always stress the one weekend a month 2 weeks in the summer without mentioning even then that the odds of being called up to go active was over %30 and its more like 80% today.
If someone is going in they are better off just going active because they are going to get deployed anyway.
The guard and reserve recruiters wont likely have much to say about that even today but who knows I havent talked to them in years.
I always found the Army, Navy , Air Force and Marine recruiters to be top notch, honest and up front.
The guard and reserve recruiters were less upfront.
They always stress the one weekend a month 2 weeks in the summer without mentioning even then that the odds of being called up to go active was over %30 and its more like 80% today.
If someone is going in they are better off just going active because they are going to get deployed anyway.
The guard and reserve recruiters wont likely have much to say about that even today but who knows I havent talked to them in years.
movie zombie
Super_Ideal_Rock
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and another:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050617/ap_on_re_us/military_in_schools
if nothing else, perhaps this issue is getting parents collectively active in their local communities.
peace, movie zombie
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050617/ap_on_re_us/military_in_schools
if nothing else, perhaps this issue is getting parents collectively active in their local communities.
peace, movie zombie
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