Philosophic question about diamond advertising

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

When companies create new patented cuts branding statements like “the most IDEAL / BRILLIANT / FIREY diamond ever” rely on absolute claims that belittle earlier and competing brands statements.

False use of absolute claims has diminished the confidence of retailers, salespersons and consumers.
Does that make sense?
I would like to know what everyone thinks, diamond lovers, shoppers, experts, consumers, appraisers, retailers and e-tailers and you too (the one I left out

) (actually there are 2 of you)

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 2/16/2008 12:27:07 AM
Author:Garry H (Cut Nut)
When companies create new patented cuts branding statements like “the most IDEAL / BRILLIANT / FIREY diamond ever” rely on absolute claims that belittle earlier and competing brands statements.

False use of absolute claims has diminished the confidence of retailers, salespersons and consumers.
Does that make sense?
I would like to know what everyone thinks, diamond lovers, shoppers, experts, consumers, appraisers, retailers and e-tailers and you too (the one I left out

) (actually there are 2 of you)

Nah, I see through those marketing ploys. I rely on hard facts.

 

[door knob solitaire]

I am sure I am the 3rd....you just didn''t think I would take a stab at it.

Yes it does make sense and it is correct. There should be a standard somewhere. Something a consumer can know right of the bat what they are dealing with.

In the classic car industry there is a vague term "restored". You can have a restored car in many different conditions. One Bubba did under the old oak tree, or the restoration done by say Chip Foose. Two totally different cars! There is number code that is across the board a standard. One number indicates the condition of the car and to what quality the car was restored if at all. There is a number and a phrase that is relied on for a survivor car. This is one that has never been "molested" and restored. It is original...just not brand new. You can buy this car sight unseen from a reputable dealer knowing he respects the code...and you know what you are getting.

Well, in diamonds there should also be a standard. You can''t all use the same word for different applications. If you are going to release the word and not have any standards...then you have to go to another system. Say a number system, for example.

Ideal is ideal period. Stay away from this word unless your stone is ideal. You can''t even call the weather ideal. One use denoting superiority~ it is not a one size fits all. The other adjectives fiery...brilliant...are just adjectives...aren''t they? Bet you don''t have to worry about the over use of GOOD...or POOR right? Cut descriptions should be off limits to anything other than cut. Or you need to go to a number system...like the car industry. (showroom condition, driven only on Sundays, program car...see how words can convey a totally different meaning?)

You can put me down as a consumer, shopper, tire kicker and diamond lover. And opinionated. Oy!

 

[strmrdr]

do I really have too answer lol.

I think most of the patented cuts are a joke.
The marketing is pathetic.
I could destroy the patent with one hand tied behind my back
if they ever tried too enforce them with any of them.

That said there are 2 or 3 that did fill a niche in the market, like the high performance squares.
There are others that make sense in large sizes like some of the extra facet rounds.

There are some sellers that have had pretty good luck selling them on their own merits with little hype and I think that''s great but visiting the websites or watching the commercials for the same stones makes me bust up laughing and feel insulted!

 

[whatmeworry]

I think cut is probably the least one eroding consumer confidence. Non uniform grading of color/clarity seems to provide the most disappointment and anger on this forum. The "I bought an F/VS2 and it came back a J/SI2" post. As far as patented cuts being marketed as the most brilliant/firey/sparkly etc., I guess I''ve seen them mostly extolling the virtues of extra facets and not so much as belittling the competition. Probably the reason we haven''t seen posts complaining about false advertising on cut is that there is no standard grading of cut. You don''t see posts complaining about I bought this because it scored a 9 on the Tolkowsky scale but my appraiser said it only scored a 7. Except for rounds. Every now and then you see a post that goes " my salesman said it was an ideal cut but the HCA gave it a 4.2."

 

[whatmeworry]

Garry,

see Radiant Girl's post complaining about a diamond that was represented as top quality yet came back as AGA 3A. Now is this an inferior cut radiant because it's an AGA 3A? So here someone is telling her is a high quality cut and now the AGA grading system is telling her otherwise. Is this false advertising on the merchant's part? Yet there is no universally accepted grading on cut quality for radiants or even rounds for that matter.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/anyone-used-the-better-business-bureau-to-get-money-back.78881/

 

[coatimundi_org]

I don''t pay attention to marketing. It''s lame. I''m also not into patented cuts per se.

We''re inundated with advertising of this sort all the time. I actually find it irritating, if anything at all.

 

[Missrocks]

That really does make sense. I think that most diamond shoppers with some education tend to stray from these patented cuts, because they keep getting bombarded with ads and images of these competing brands, each saying they are better than the next. It really makes them all lose their credibility in a sense. What really gets to me most is how the term "Ideal" is so loosly thrown around. Its seems any joe-schmo store you walk into, they are quick to say their stone is of "ideal" cut. And how most average shoppers in their minds consider "Premium" the next step down, when in reality, most so called "premium" diamonds have numbers so horrible they will make most ps'ers cringe.-
As someone else already mentioned, I think what I see has diminished confidence the most, is un-uniform color/ clarity grading. Most people tend to understand how lab grading standards may differ from one to the next. But I still see posts of people thinking they can get a better price by going with a softer grading lab. I have even seen some reports I felt GIA was soft on the clarity (VS1's with large dark xtals- even eye visible from the pavilion) and some AGS reports where they are soft on the color. Or inner-lab inconsistancy- GIA reserving the right to change their grading- send in an I, change their mind and give it a J.
I would hate to be the average shopper anymore- it must be such a big headache.

 

[monarch64]

Gary, straight off the cuff, and without looking at anyone else''s answers...I have to say I roll my eyes at any marketing campaign these days when the ads talk about how their diamonds are superior in whatever respect in comparison to whatever other. Ideal cut is ideal cut is ideal cut.

I''m speaking not only from a consumer POV, but also as someone who just left the retail (selling) side of the industry in the US. It was no fun for me to try to explain why the particular branded cut that the shop I worked for offered was better than any other. I did it, of course, sometimes convincingly with happy results, sometimes not.

 

[Serg]

Most who launches a new brand( according DeBeers Branding initiative)
nowadays diminishes consumer confidence in the existing ones( Because all
try exploit only ONE idea of branding diamond- "Ideal Diamond" But Ideal
diamond could be only ONE. One for create new GLOBAL brand You should
destroyed all other SAMe Brands) .


Everyone who invest in a brand Ideal cut speeds up the process.
Little by little the industry slips to a self-destructive spiral. (This situation is analogue to classical legend of uroboros snake.)

As a result we observe consumers withdrawing from the diamond market
for the beneift of other luxury goods.
Industry invested to much money to destroyed consumer confidence to DIAMOND brand.

 

[Cleo]

Oooh! Oooh! Ooooh! Me! Me!

I had to respond to this for two reasons:

1) I work in marketing (sadly never in the diamond industry!!)
2) I recently complained (unsuccessfully) to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK about an advert by a well known B&M chain, H Samuels, for their branded diamonds.

I received a catalogue from them in a newspaper. I always have a look, just to gloat at the outrageous prices of their hideous quality diamonds... and to marvel at the fact that thousands of unsuspecting consumers are wasting their hard-earned money on that junk.

The catalogue had a section advertising their branded ''Forever Diamonds'' and stated that with this brand the customer could be assured of choosing "the ultimate quality diamond".

I was FURIOUS!

To me the phrase "ultimate quality diamond" implies that the diamond is D colour, FL or IF and super ideal cut. Ultimate is ultimate, and therefore this should mean that these diamonds are absolutely superior in every respect.

So what quality are these ''ultimate quality'' 73-facet Forever Diamonds?

Well, for the princely sum of £5000 (about $10,000) you too can be the proud owner of an I colour, 1ct solitaire, set in 18ct gold.

And the clarity?

P1.

P1!!!!!!!!!

Hardly ''ultimate'' by any standards.

I tried to convey to the ASA that these poor consumers may well be quite disappointed to realise that their precious engagement ring is likely to have a number of eye-visible inclusions, once it passes beyond the glare of the shop''s spotlights... and that rather than buying the ''ultimate quality'', they have, in fact, bought a highly inferior quality diamond.

For a real piece of eye candy check out this beauty and zoom right in on the stone. Yum. And you can bet your life this was the best one they could find to photograph.

Sadly the ASA seemes to think the average man on the street would realise that they were not really going to be buying the ultimate quality, and decided to continue to allow them to rip customers off with their false advertising slogans.

x x x

 

[arjunajane]

There are some sellers that have had pretty good luck selling them on their own merits with little hype and I think that''s great but visiting the websites or watching the commercials for the same stones makes me bust up laughing and feel insulted!


I know! Has anyone else seen the hearts on fire commercial?! That was the funniest thing ever!! LOL

One sales lady even gave me the promo DVD for HOF - I couldn''t get to the end of it (all 2-3 mins) as it was so silly.
(of course, no offence if anyone owns one, I''m just refering to the ads here).

 

[Deelight]

The majority of people I know buy jewelery on the premise of emotion they don''t bother to do the research and if someone tells them it is u-beaut top of the line they will go okay here is the cash.


I have tried on HOF diamonds and I was seriously left absolutely underwhelmed, apart from the fact the SA knew very little about diamonds in general they lacked any kind of fire, brightness or sparkle. And their grading systems were bleugh and vauge. Granted I do not think these were the best of the crop.


I don''t pay attn to the hype

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 2/16/2008 6:58:31 AM
Author: Deelight
The majority of people I know buy jewelery on the premise of emotion they don''t bother to do the research and if someone tells them it is u-beaut top of the line they will go okay here is the cash.


I have tried on HOF diamonds and I was seriously left absolutely underwhelmed, apart from the fact the SA knew very little about diamonds in general they lacked any kind of fire, brightness or sparkle. And their grading systems were bleugh and vauge. Granted I do not think these were the best of the crop.


I don''t pay attn to the hype

I totally agree Deelight.I felt the same way. At least my SA was silghtly more educated than your average one, however I still would''ve sunk her if I could be bothered to assert anything- and I consider myself an ignorant compared to you guys!
However, i digress, I am going off topic sorry garry

 

[rainydaze]

funny thing.... just last night my DH and i were in a mall and i was curious to look at the jewelry stores with my new ''PS eyes''. as i was browsing one store the SA was doing his pitch and my DH casually said ''oh, she''s really picky'' to which the SA said ''oh, then she''ll love our HoF section!'' when i finally got to it, the SA tried this one out ''HoF diamonds are the most perfectly cut diamonds in the world!''. i just smiled, and chuckled to myself, and continued on. maybe so, maybe not, but it''s going to take more than a cheesy, generalized marketing statement to convince me i have found something special!

marketing bugs the heck out of; it has become a runaway train and i can only say i am glad i am not a naive consumer (of anything).

i have always, always been leery of jewelry stores (i have mostly been in mall stores, hence) and have never appreciated some of the silly pitches they throw out there and want me to swallow. i am so glad to have found PS, so that now it is more than just an icky feeling, now i have KNOWLEDGE to support my hunches. and hopefully, one day, i will find a local B&M with whom i am finally comfortable.

 

[oldminer]

In the development of the AGA cut Class system during the late 1980''s and early 1990''s, I had a very keen awareness of what makes a diamond stand out from others in terms of what we see as craftsmanship. Generally a diamond which has the craftsmanship and proprotions to score 2B or higher will also, due to the skill of the cutter, have a very lovely appearance. Few diamonds below that level have all the "look" or "durability" attributes. Since diamonds are always judged beyond what the eye can detect for gradations of color and clarity, I chose to also partition the cut system beyond what the eye can readily see. There may not yet be an agreement on universal standards for cutting, but it is mostly because no one is in charge to make such a decision with so much effect on the business structure and profits of the existing market. The strong players realy don''t want more standards. The weaker players and consumers want standards, but they are relatively powerless. This is no democracy.

Consumers are well served by AGA Cut Class grading. If you can''t physically see a diamond, the parameters of cut are very decent guidance on what is possible to expect from the diamond should you go forward to have it shipped to you. Also, if you are seeing a diamond which you like that has a 3A or lower grade, you ought to ask what component(s) is (are) weak and what is the potential problem. If you don''t ask, you can''t expect to be informed. In a world without standards, the AGA Cut Class is a useful, practical and well developed strategy for acceptance as a "standard". Standard or not, it does the same job.

The AGA Cut Class was been adopted by the National Association of Jewelery Appraisers several years ago. With over 700 members, that says something positive. I no longer own AGA, so my role is simply to provide information and not pitch anything I have a property right to. I gave this to the industry and never held it out as intellectual property for a fee.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 2/16/2008 4:13:45 AM
Author: Cleo
Well, for the princely sum of £5000 (about $10,000) you too can be the proud owner of an I colour, 1ct solitaire, set in 18ct gold.


And the clarity?


P1.


P1!!!!!!!!!


Hardly ''ultimate'' by any standards.

P1?! I didn''t even know it went down that far.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 2/16/2008 8:09:04 AM
Author: rainydaze
funny thing.... just last night my DH and i were in a mall and i was curious to look at the jewelry stores with my new ''PS eyes''. as i was browsing one store the SA was doing his pitch and my DH casually said ''oh, she''s really picky'' to which the SA said ''oh, then she''ll love our HoF section!'' when i finally got to it, the SA tried this one out ''HoF diamonds are the most perfectly cut diamonds in the world!''. i just smiled, and chuckled to myself, and continued on. maybe so, maybe not, but it''s going to take more than a cheesy, generalized marketing statement to convince me i have found something special!

marketing bugs the heck out of; it has become a runaway train and i can only say i am glad i am not a naive consumer (of anything).

i have always, always been leery of jewelry stores (i have mostly been in mall stores, hence) and have never appreciated some of the silly pitches they throw out there and want me to swallow. i am so glad to have found PS, so that now it is more than just an icky feeling, now i have KNOWLEDGE to support my hunches. and hopefully, one day, i will find a local B&M with whom i am finally comfortable.

Hey Rainydaze..exactly the same thing that happened to me! I thought I''d check out these "The world''s most perfectly cut diamonds" ,

just mainly out of curiosity. The SA marketed that line to me aswell.
I agree that they really didn''t sparkle much at all, even under the store lights. And the spread seemed Very small to me - especially when you are paying at least $10,000 a carat!!

After a little more research, I found the "dream" diamond (there modified square brilliant) only has 51 facets, compared to for an example the Princess of Hearts, which has 81.
I know facets aren''t everything, but based on that comparison alone, I don''t feel they are justified with their marketing slogan. It is very misleading for the *average* consumer.

 

[Jban]

I agree with rainydaze. When my BF and I were in a B&M store (just looking with my new ps knowledge) and I asked about the fact that they didn''t have any better clarity stones (they showed me an I1) and that I could see the inclusions they stated that "The inclusions are like fingerprints and assure that the diamond is yours" . I thought you have got to be kidding me. And this was a well known chain with commercials that advertise "the best " jewelry. I don''t know much but I know that for the avergae person you would go there and totally fall for that line. So just like with any product most people unfortunately believe what ever you tell them to be true.
Jban

 

[Deelight]

Date: 2/16/2008 7:51:28 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 2/16/2008 6:58:31 AM

Author: Deelight

The majority of people I know buy jewelery on the premise of emotion they don''t bother to do the research and if someone tells them it is u-beaut top of the line they will go okay here is the cash.



I have tried on HOF diamonds and I was seriously left absolutely underwhelmed, apart from the fact the SA knew very little about diamonds in general they lacked any kind of fire, brightness or sparkle. And their grading systems were bleugh and vauge. Granted I do not think these were the best of the crop.



I don''t pay attn to the hype

I totally agree Deelight.I felt the same way. At least my SA was silghtly more educated than your average one, however I still would''ve sunk her if I could be bothered to assert anything- and I consider myself an ignorant compared to you guys!

However, i digress, I am going off topic sorry garry

The SA was quite nice I actually felt sorry for the poor bugger, he was fairly young and I think considering I have enough knowledge to be dangerous to myself I may have scared him

. The poor mite was trying to tell me that when the diamond was set you would not be able to see the arrows you would only be able to see the hearts??? (I politely corrected him). I can''t understand why a company would spend so much on marketing but not bother prepping their staff.

 

[Cleo]

Hey Gwendolyn - love your new avatar! It''s great to put a face to your name

P1 is the same as I1... an old fashioned term I believe, which stands for ''Pique'' (French for ''pricked'' apparently).

Speaking of B&M experiences...

I recall looking in B&Ms with my best friend, so she could establish exactly what she liked in terms of diamond rings, and visiting a branch of Goldsmiths jewellers.

The SA proudly showed us a 1ct solitaire, for the ridiculous sum of something like £8000 ($16k)... and explained it was "G-H colour and SI clarity".

At this point I asked if it was G or H, and was it SI1 or SI2 (given there would be a significant difference between a G, SI1 and an H, SI2). The girl looked at me like I was mad, and actually had to look at a ''Teach yourself the 4 Cs'' type chart to confirm to herself that there was more than one SI clarity grade.

Shocking.

Not as shocking as that diamond though. It looked awful face up... dead as dead thing.

Tilting the stone and viewing it through the pavillion revealed a spectacular array of what can only be described as brown crud. A bit like the stuff you get when you clean out the bottom of a fish tank.

Absolutely revolting... and I cannot believe it was SI clarity!

I also saw a delightful 1ct frozen spit diamond in a B&M in New Zealand.It was so bad, it was almost totally opaque and white, rather than colourless.

Lovely.

Then, of course, there was Beaverbrooks, who tried to put my friend off buying online because ''she didn''t need an AGS or GIA cert'' and that ''Beaverbrooks are so big they can afford their own gemologist to grade their diamonds''.

Heaven forbid any of their customers ever sees a DECENT diamond.... "and here''s what you could have won!".

x x x

 

[A Day Late]

I am totally confused with the sales people in my province. When we first started this mad hunt for that perfect ring, I went to my local B & M store (we onlyhave 2 in our little town), and looked at many diamonds in settings. The price ranged from 3000 to 7000. Our budget is a firm $5000 (and I kmnow I can get a beautiful diamond and setting for that money - now). I was VERY disappointed in the selection we had here. The first store said they don''t actually ''carry'' a better diamond, but they would gladly order one for me if I paid for it in advance. It works this way - I tell them what size diamond I want, and how much money I have, and they find a ''great'' diamond in my price range. The technical stuff was to be of no worry to me - they decide on what color, clarity and cut I want. WRONG!

The second store tells me that they have no need to carry certified stones, "our diamonds are the best, and of very good quality, so getting them certified is a waste of money." She then shows me a picture of what her diamonds are: well-cut: which was on the top of her selling pyramid - I1: again, near the top of her selling pyramid, and G color: the top three colors avaialble. Of course, at this time I knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about diamonds, settings, etc.(now I know very little), so I just figured our measily $5000 would not get me a great diamond. By the way, for $7000 she had a .71 centre stone (G-I1-well cut) and the sidestones were .24.

Now that I have actually taken the time to look at diamond information, I am completely appaulled that she would tel me what she did. an I1 for $7000??? 0.71 carats!!! please. I feel very sorry for the average guy who goes into these store, believeing the slaes people. And I was talking to the owner of the store, not just an employee. She is telling me that an I1 is flwless enough, that people cannot se the flaws unless I show them... and she made it quite clear that I should not point out the flaws. I guess that means if someone wanted to see my ring, I should move to the other side of the room and hold up my left hand.

really, I live in a province with very few choices for jewellers - and I can tell you this for sure - It is not necessaryily the diamond industry that I am frustrated with, but for sure, I am completely and utterly disappointed in the sales tactics, sales pitches and the false information that the diamond retailers feel complelled to give to the unsusprcting customer. I was on the phone last night with my FH and my exact words to him were ths: "I think that there is no such thing as an honest diamond retailer here (in our province), and I am almost to the point that I should shop outside of Canada."

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

This discussion comes to mind:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-terms-ideal-and-ags-ideal.50802/

cheers--Sharon

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/16/2008 9:48:11 AM
Author: oldminer
I no longer own AGA, so my role is simply to provide information and not pitch anything I have a property right to. I gave this to the industry and never held it out as intellectual property for a fee.

When did that happen Dave?
That is something we needed too know about.

edit: just went too the website and see that Christian DiCamillo is in charge now that makes me feel better.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Date: 2/16/2008 10:59:27 AM
Author: I recall looking in B&Ms with my best friend, so she could establish exactly what she liked in terms of diamond rings, and visiting a branch of Goldsmiths jewellers.


The SA proudly showed us a 1ct solitaire, for the ridiculous sum of something like £8000 ($16k)... and explained it was ''G-H colour and SI clarity''.


At this point I asked if it was G or H, and was it SI1 or SI2 (given there would be a significant difference between a G, SI1 and an H, SI2). The girl looked at me like I was mad, and actually had to look at a ''Teach yourself the 4 Cs'' type chart to confirm to herself that there was more than one SI clarity grade.

She might not have known anything about diamond grading - but would have told you all about their finance deals so you could buy their lovely diamond.

Thats all i ever got when window shopping when passing - yes its a lovely ring 1ct in 14k gold - you can get it on our easy 12 month 0% deal...

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 2/16/2008 10:59:27 AM
Author: Cleo
Hey Gwendolyn - love your new avatar! It''s great to put a face to your name


P1 is the same as I1... an old fashioned term I believe, which stands for ''Pique'' (French for ''pricked'' apparently).

First of all, thanks on the avatar comments! I felt badly because I had a Tori Amos avatar when I first signed up, and lots of folks thought that was me--felt like false advertising, so I put actual me up after that.

Second of all, well that''s something about P1 = I1. I was thinking it was below I3, and that REALLY horrified me! So I guess that''s good news...sorta?

 

[strmrdr]

I have thought about this some more.
Bringing new or different in diamond cuts to market is good for the industry and consumers I think if done for the right reasons and the right way.
The problem is it was pushed by De Beers for all the wrong reasons and the wrong way.
They wanted too gear up a hype machine and that machine was greeted with a collective yawn by consumers as it should have been.

The problem they were facing is no one wants too spend millions of dollars on advertising that helps your competitors too who didn't spend the money.
So the idea came up too have each one come up with their own cut and spend millions on advertising an exclusive product.

A diamond advertising council would have been a much better idea as is done in the milk and meat industries but De Beers would not support that because they would have a hard time controlling it.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

WOW - so many responses, so little time to reply.
We are off to the airport.

But let me ask you all how these claims that involve absolute statements affect yours or other shoppers confidence?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/16/2008 1:41:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
WOW - so many responses, so little time to reply.
We are off to the airport.

But let me ask you all how these claims that involve absolute statements affect yours or other shoppers confidence?

I have times found myself in the uncomfortable position of busting the hype and trying to bring the discussion down to reality especially with branded rounds that are no different than any other high performance round and worse than some.
I have too say that has damaged others confidence in the industry and my own.
HOF is one of the worst offenders on that front, 8* was for a while until they more or less faded out of the picture.
If it wasn't for WF and the ACA and Paul's Inifinity line id say that all branded RB's do nothing but damage consumer confidence.
The reason they arent evil is they provide the information too back up the claims and keep the hype down somewhat.
Most of the hype for both brands comes from consumers, Brian and Paul are pretty down too earth about them.


Stay safe and have fun on your trip!!

 

[Diamond*Dana]

Not me, I just roll my eyes and laugh it off.