Does it mean what you have not confidence to Diamond market at all?Date: 2/16/2008 2:16:49 PM
Author: Diamond*Dana
Not me, I just roll my eyes and laugh it off.
If you have confidence what actually is your confidence?
Does it mean what you have not confidence to Diamond market at all?Date: 2/16/2008 2:16:49 PM
Author: Diamond*Dana
Not me, I just roll my eyes and laugh it off.
sadly diamond sales people too most people are considered one step below used car salesman and with good reason.Date: 2/16/2008 2:23:29 PM
Author: Serg
Does it mean what you have not confidence to Diamond market at all?Date: 2/16/2008 2:16:49 PM
Author: Diamond*Dana
Not me, I just roll my eyes and laugh it off.
If you have confidence what actually is your confidence?
I''ve said it before and I''ll say it again, the brand does not make the diamond. Every brand of diamond attempts to create a division for itself within the diamond industry, but most brands do not offer anything unique, created only by itself. Each diamond within a brand must be evaluated on its own merits, smart consumers look past the brand name to the specific features of each item.Date: 2/16/2008 1:11:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
I have thought about this some more.
Bringing new or different in diamond cuts to market is good for the industry and consumers I think if done for the right reasons and the right way.
The problem is it was pushed by De Beers for all the wrong reasons and the wrong way.
You have made many good points storm.Date: 2/16/2008 1:11:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
I have thought about this some more.
Bringing new or different in diamond cuts to market is good for the industry and consumers I think if done for the right reasons and the right way.
The problem is it was pushed by De Beers for all the wrong reasons and the wrong way.
They wanted too gear up a hype machine and that machine was greeted with a collective yawn by consumers as it should have been.
The problem they were facing is no one wants too spend millions of dollars on advertising that helps your competitors too who didn''t spend the money.
So the idea came up too have each one come up with their own cut and spend millions on advertising an exclusive product.
A diamond advertising council would have been a much better idea as is done in the milk and meat industries but De Beers would not support that because they would have a hard time controlling it.
What other industries and goods companies irrite you Coatimundi?Date: 2/16/2008 2:26:19 AM
Author: coatimundi
I don''t pay attention to marketing. It''s lame. I''m also not into patented cuts per se.
We''re inundated with advertising of this sort all the time. I actually find it irritating, if anything at all.
When companies build a strong brand they usually also try to protect it.Date: 2/16/2008 1:24:33 AM
Author: whatmeworry
I think cut is probably the least one eroding consumer confidence. Non uniform grading of color/clarity seems to provide the most disappointment and anger on this forum. The ''I bought an F/VS2 and it came back a J/SI2'' post. As far as patented cuts being marketed as the most brilliant/firey/sparkly etc., I guess I''ve seen them mostly extolling the virtues of extra facets and not so much as belittling the competition. Probably the reason we haven''t seen posts complaining about false advertising on cut is that there is no standard grading of cut. You don''t see posts complaining about I bought this because it scored a 9 on the Tolkowsky scale but my appraiser said it only scored a 7. Except for rounds. Every now and then you see a post that goes '' my salesman said it was an ideal cut but the HCA gave it a 4.2.''
Over the years I am here on PS..., I have pointed out numerous times the simple fact of the word "Ideal" is being abused!!!Date: 2/16/2008 3:54:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
You have made many good points storm.Date: 2/16/2008 1:11:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
I have thought about this some more.
Bringing new or different in diamond cuts to market is good for the industry and consumers I think if done for the right reasons and the right way.
The problem is it was pushed by De Beers for all the wrong reasons and the wrong way.
They wanted too gear up a hype machine and that machine was greeted with a collective yawn by consumers as it should have been.
The problem they were facing is no one wants too spend millions of dollars on advertising that helps your competitors too who didn''t spend the money.
So the idea came up too have each one come up with their own cut and spend millions on advertising an exclusive product.
A diamond advertising council would have been a much better idea as is done in the milk and meat industries but De Beers would not support that because they would have a hard time controlling it.
One thing here is that there are brands statements from companies for generic cuts, and brand statements for new patented cuts.
I am most interested in the later.
The former is more like a claimed quality control brand. Maybe they do not do any damage if the product is better than average. LK and HoF would be examples? Although the claim of ''perfection'' is an ''absolute''.
But new cuts make often unsubstantiated claims that are very often false.
Sergey has long held that if people believe the absolute claims like ''ideal'' then there is no point in designing new cuts because they can only be less than ideal.
Finally some words of wisdom...
I am not sure how powerful that word is in that we grow up with such ridiculous claims bombarding us every day - is it water off a ducks back?
Or do these claims dent confidence and stymie development?
For example wine rating systems can give the same rating, eg 94, for 4 very different wines - all are good, but one is for steak and another for fish. It is even possible to rate a wine as 100, but very rare. such a wine should never be able to be bettered. By using ideal, perfect etc, are we giving 100 ratings and saying forget about trying to do better?
There goes the AGS Triple 0 theory...(unless there is a -1 etc..., grade coming up in the near future???)
Now people can understand (maybe) that the GIA''s Excellent scale is a more correct vocabulary...
Could we have diamond ratings like wine - this one is the 94 night time and this other one is 95 for engagement rings and this 5 sided stone is 84, but will still be ranked very high within the ''art diamond'' series.
Date: 2/16/2008 3:55:52 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
What other industries and goods companies irrite you Coatimundi?Date: 2/16/2008 2:26:19 AM
Author: coatimundi
I don't pay attention to marketing. It's lame. I'm also not into patented cuts per se.
We're inundated with advertising of this sort all the time. I actually find it irritating, if anything at all.
I believe what Serg is saying is that (simply) not all Diamonds react the same on certain rules...Date: 2/16/2008 4:41:37 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
What works good enough for 1ct round cut( result come from long history attempts and mistakes),
does not work well for 10ct round
Serg, really? I didn''t know that. So the larger the stone the symmetry importance is not as important? I don''t understand that comment. I am not mocking your comment, just requesting more detail. Please explain. I understand the other shapes it is far harder...that part I understand.
It was difficult fro AGS fix several years ago and looks it is impossible fix now
It was so simple 10 years ago start use SCORE* system Instead PENALTY system.
i can only speak for one here.... prior to finding information on the internet, such statments simply served to underscore my lack of confidence. my eyes had already told me i wasn''t looking at something as spectacular as they were claiming, even if i didn''t yet have the resources to understand why or what else was available to me. offering some gratuitous sales pitch reinforced my confidence in what my eyes and my gut were telling me, not in the SA or the product. i mean, if they truly have something special why not present me with some real information about what makes it worth purchasing? the only answer i could come up with was there wasn''t anything meritous... and i was being taken for naive.Date: 2/16/2008 1:41:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
But let me ask you all how these claims that involve absolute statements affect yours or other shoppers confidence?
10 ct round should have more facetsDate: 2/16/2008 4:41:37 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
What works good enough for 1ct round cut( result come from long history attempts and mistakes),
does not work well for 10ct round
Serg, really? I didn''t know that. So the larger the stone the symmetry importance is not as important? I don''t understand that comment. I am not mocking your comment, just requesting more detail. Please explain. I understand the other shapes it is far harder...that part I understand.
4+ years of research and thousands of hours spent on the subject.Date: 2/16/2008 4:07:16 PM
Author: Serg
re:Storm, Ellen, Kaleigh, and all the rest aren''t going to let me buy something they wouldn''t. So you can continue calling the stuff what you wish...my confidence won''t be effected. But the normal consumer...your bread and butter...will be. And I think it will eventually catch up as they learn they have been douped
Yes, they advice you buy what they really like
But why do they like it?
That is sad Sarabx.Date: 2/16/2008 5:14:37 PM
Author: saradbx
Hi Gary and everyone else here,
A view from the bottom of the diamond ''food chain''...
I am a consumer, trying to buy a diamond in Dubai. I started researching a couple of weeks ago, online and in the local Diamond Park viewing stones. I am totally confused and don''t know who to trust. I thought if I research carefully and only consider diamonds with a top cut/proportion grade I would be on safe ground. I found a diamond with a HRD certificate that looked beautiful, but I have now found out that the top HRD grade of ''Very Good'' is not comparable to other top lab grade of ''Ideal''. However another diamond expert on another forum told me that the HRD was a well respected organisation and the European equivalent of the GIA! I am starting to feel that I need to become a gemologist to buy a ring without getting ripped off! In answer to your original question Gary, the result is that I am not buying.
Or deliberate variance in symmetryDate: 2/16/2008 7:07:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
10 ct round should have more facetsDate: 2/16/2008 4:41:37 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
What works good enough for 1ct round cut( result come from long history attempts and mistakes),
does not work well for 10ct round
Serg, really? I didn''t know that. So the larger the stone the symmetry importance is not as important? I don''t understand that comment. I am not mocking your comment, just requesting more detail. Please explain. I understand the other shapes it is far harder...that part I understand.
.10 less
Too be considered ''ideal''
that would be forcing the answer on the problem instead of actually solving it.Date: 2/16/2008 7:27:55 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Or deliberate variance in symmetryDate: 2/16/2008 7:07:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
10 ct round should have more facetsDate: 2/16/2008 4:41:37 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
What works good enough for 1ct round cut( result come from long history attempts and mistakes),
does not work well for 10ct round
Serg, really? I didn''t know that. So the larger the stone the symmetry importance is not as important? I don''t understand that comment. I am not mocking your comment, just requesting more detail. Please explain. I understand the other shapes it is far harder...that part I understand.
.10 less
Too be considered ''ideal''
For me a campaign for better cut asschers and leave "ideal" out of it please.Date: 2/16/2008 3:34:25 PM
Author: Modified Brilliant
The CUT issue has been developed to the max..''my super super duper ideal is better than your duper excellent super ideal.''
We''ve covered the 4 C''s. The ''CUT'' issue took a back seat for a long time as sellers sold diamonds based on carat weight, color, and
clarity. CUT was once a ''non issue.''
What''s next? What''s fresh, new and exciting AFTER the Ideal cut?
Jeff Averbook, GG
Graduate Gemologist since 1986
www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
It''s really a shame the labs don''t use a no-limits scoring system. There was a poster who was disappointed with his AGS0, that it wasn''t bright enough. So he was asking if a branded H&A AGS0 would be brighter. Perhaps this poster would have been better served by buying a non-"ideal" diamond that was brighter but less fiery. In the GIA cut study, there was a test diamond that scored really high on brilliance but not so well on the other metrics. Perhaps he would have liked something llike that.Date: 2/16/2008 6:38:10 PM
Author: Serg
re:unless there is a -1 etc..., grade coming up in the near future???)
We discussed it with AGS start from IDCC1( 2004 year)
It was difficult fro AGS fix several years ago and looks it is impossible fix now
It was so simple 10 years ago start use SCORE* system Instead PENALTY system.
Good marketing tactic solution destroyed strategy for development diamond market ( and AGS lab itself)
Now consumers ''vote by legs''
They too tired from conflict between Lab grading system, conflict between Brand advertisement. They are not so silly, like in dreams of ''Diamond professionals''
O lot of High managers in big miner companies are thinking what consumer confidence is enough:
give Paper in shop what diamond is not ''Blond'' diamond, is not synthetic , is not child labor
Only negative. they have not mind about real consumer confidence at all
* ( without any limitation! Not like in wine system with highest score 100. 50ct round with same proportion like 1ct round should receive better score for Fire and less score for foolishness in using unique piece of rough. 50 ct and even 10ct should have other cut to show (open) all ability so big piece diamond. Ideal symmetry round cut for 10ct round is stupid for my test. But Labs can not grade other cuts and cutter should do such stupid work now to receive premium( for IDEAL cut) )
Date: 2/16/2008 8:06:50 PM
Author: strmrdr
that would be forcing the answer on the problem instead of actually solving it.Date: 2/16/2008 7:27:55 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Or deliberate variance in symmetryDate: 2/16/2008 7:07:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
10 ct round should have more facetsDate: 2/16/2008 4:41:37 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
What works good enough for 1ct round cut( result come from long history attempts and mistakes),
does not work well for 10ct round
Serg, really? I didn''t know that. So the larger the stone the symmetry importance is not as important? I don''t understand that comment. I am not mocking your comment, just requesting more detail. Please explain. I understand the other shapes it is far harder...that part I understand.
.10 less
Too be considered ''ideal''
Diamond Beauty base on compromise between average linear size virtual facets and number virtual facets .( Distribution virtual facets are important in bath spaces: in diamond image and ETAS sphere. For example NailHead diamonds have good facet distribution in diamond space , but very bad in ETAS sphere)
In range 1ct+ and 10ct- BEST cut for YOU depends from YOUR TASTE( Age, culture, sex,..)
Date: 2/17/2008 7:55:11 AM
Author: Serg
Date: 2/16/2008 8:06:50 PM
Author: strmrdr
that would be forcing the answer on the problem instead of actually solving it.Date: 2/16/2008 7:27:55 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Or deliberate variance in symmetryDate: 2/16/2008 7:07:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
10 ct round should have more facetsDate: 2/16/2008 4:41:37 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
What works good enough for 1ct round cut( result come from long history attempts and mistakes),
does not work well for 10ct round
Serg, really? I didn''t know that. So the larger the stone the symmetry importance is not as important? I don''t understand that comment. I am not mocking your comment, just requesting more detail. Please explain. I understand the other shapes it is far harder...that part I understand.
.10 less
Too be considered ''ideal''
Diamond Beauty base on compromise between average linear size virtual facets and number virtual facets .( Distribution virtual facets are important in bath spaces: in diamond image and ETAS sphere. For example NailHead diamonds have good facet distribution in diamond space , but very bad in ETAS sphere)
Symmetry shift it balance . For round diamonds 1ct- the 3D symmetry is very helpful to increase average size virtual facets. For 10ct+ round cut we could and need add more virtual facets to improve distribution in ETAS Sphere.
Serg..., virtual facets sizes (and I think the number of them) can be played with while changing facet angles and sizes plus depth...
Best way is change the cut. It is not wise use round cut for 10ct+, but it is stupid to demand ideal symmetry for 10ct+ round cut( Again tilt destroy any symmetry and increase number virtual facets. You can not observe diamond only perpendicular to table . But it is other story)Most Diamonds are looked upon when in the tilt position 99% of the time...
In range 1ct+ and 10ct- BEST cut for YOU depends from YOUR TASTE( Age, culture, sex,..)
Because Labs can not give real cut grade specially for ANY cut( it is really hard task), they prefer create-support idea of IDEAL cut . Labs will happy if all cutters will cut exactly same diamonds and consumers will but its.
I agree..., thats why fancy cuts are much more interesting...