Please advise on this Montana sapphire - window?

[T L]

Also, I am looking at the video & pics on my ipad. What color are you all seeing the stone? To me, it looks more dark green-blue, not just "dark blue" to me. I noted when I responded to her the color on my end, but admitted that very well could just be the difference in my monitor vs hers.

She said she's being "blinded by the sun" in the video, so I assume she's video taping this stone in bright light. That can do one of two things. It can actually make a stone appear darker than it is for some color shifters, or it can make a stone look brighter, have more sparkle, etc. . .
a/quote]

Direct sun is never the way to look at a stone or judge it. Overcast or indirect sunlight (Shade) is how stones are always viewed in natural light. Attempting to use a camera on a stone in direct sun is asking too much of the sensor on the camera.

I agree, although I am guilty for taking some direct sun photos myself, which isn't that great for the sensor, like this one. This stone is a lighter toned stone though, also a sapphire, so it doesn't black out in direct sun. I was blinded while taking this shot however.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/forum/files/tlsapphire_chrys_spinel.jpg']https://www.pricescope.com/forum/files/tlsapphire_chrys_spinel.jpg[/URL]

 

[Starzin]

Interesting discussion but sorry that you had such an unpleasant experience JoCoJenn. I agree that it's best to probably move on from this but with more knowledge to aid you the next time. At least PSers reading this thread now know to steer clear.

FWIW, the stone is a deep teal on my screen (Mac) not within cooee of denim.

I wasn't asking about the Pricescope list, I'm well aware of that, and thanks for adding me to it, but the comment "I rank 4th in the country..." Where is this ranking? Has anyone ever heard or seen this?

Gene... I don't know where the "I rank 4th in the country..." came from since a quick Google showed this-
"I have been a freelance gemstone cutter since 2006 and qualified as a Pre-Master in USFG's 2013 competition. I placed 7th in my class among US cutters. Also a GIA Graduate Gemologist, and adding appraisal services later in 2014." (LinkedIn)

Another quick Google brought up the USFG 2013 results where she is indeed 7th. No idea where the "4th" comes from. You will no doubt know this, but for others who may be tempted to be somewhat disparaging about the results, I'm lead to believe this is not easy to attain.

Better luck next time Jo!

 

[chrono]

I guess I am beating a dead horse here but wanted to add my 2 cents in anyway. It is highly likely that the stone doesn't have a true window but because she tried very hard to hit the 2 carat mark (save more rough material and able to charge a higher $/ct), the stone was cut in such a fashion that the slightest tilt in any direction shows a large tilt window, which is distracting to most people. It is a pity because when the light hits it right, it has a lovely slightly greenish blue colouration.

 

[deskjockey]

I placed 7th in my class among US cutters. Also a GIA Graduate Gemologist, and adding appraisal services later in 2014." (LinkedIn)

Yes, because 7th in your class = 4th in the country including people not in your class. I buy it.

This is reminding me of some real horse bulletin board train wrecks... overstating your qualifications on the internet, then being cranky to people about it never ends well.

 

[mastercutgems]

Hello All

Not to say one thing about the cutter or the gem quality; but cutting....

I am sure Gene as well as many other cutters on this board and some of the experts that are not cutters but are good judges of a properly cut gems can understand some of what I am saying; and hopefully I will after I say it

I have found that when you do not carry the break pavilion facets down close enough to the culet and your mains and breaks are large and spread out you will get an overly dramatized tilt window... Large facets just give you a wide open effect that will allow light to leak out and give that effect. Now usually it will help to lighten a more saturated gem; but it also has the negative effect of the notorious tilt window.... Not saying that is what is happening with this gem; but....just saying....it can happen with those methods of cutting a gem's pavilion. Also keeping crown facets wide, large, and at low crown main angles can also do that as well IF the gem is tipped enough... All these things can and are done to save weight; but there is a cost on optics... let the buyer choose if that is something they can or cannot live with???

We all live and learn and I will tell you even with a pompous title like mine; I will make a mistake on a gem in a NY minute. I have learned to have some rather thick skin as I know I will never please everyone with my cutting, picture taking, prices etc. but I think most of us cutters do our best to be honest and do quality work with what we have been dealt to work with...

This is what this forum is for... give us cutters, and sellers the constructive criticism we need to better serve the clients...

This was not meant to promote or harm me or any other cutter or lapidary in the business...

We are a circle of friends, clients, competition, and critics... If you are afraid to be corrected do not go public and only sell to friends and family... Well they may be worse than strangers; but you all know what I mean

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master gem cutter
#96CGE42

 

[PrecisionGem]

That must be what the reference is to, the USFG.

The USFG is kind of a club, mostly made up of people who do not cut professional, but as a hobby or pass time. Every year the publish a few designs in different categories. Members can the cut these designs in specified material, usually CZ or some other man made material, to a specified size. The stones are then sent in and graded, on how perfect the meet points are, how close you cut to the specified diameter, and how fine the polish is. Typically people will spend days, weeks or even months cutting the stone to get them as perfect as they can. The stones are examined under a microscope and graded.

What doesn't come into play here at all is sourcing quality rough, picking the right design to best work with the rough, orientating the stone for best color etc. It's almost like grading an artist by how well he painted within the lines on a paint by the number picture. I have heard of some guys going as far as to mount a microscope on their faceting machine when cutting stones to be submitted.

Obviously when you re cutting stones to be sold, you can't cut like this, since if you put 80+ hours into one stone, even if you were working for minimum wage, the cost of the stone would be ridiculous.

 

[Starzin]

Hi Dana, thank you for adding to our knowledge base

Just to clarify...

I have found that when you do not carry the break pavilion facets down close enough to the culet and your mains and breaks are large and spread out you will get an overly dramatized tilt window...

Do you mean the ones I've noted in this diagram? I realise this is being overly simplistic because I've used a very simple RB when in fact cutters such as you and Gene use a multitude of different facet patterns for different material, shape, size etc. but given the stone in question is a round perhaps this helps us understand.

 

[Starzin]

Gene - thanks for the added info on the USFG. I sort of knew about it because my wirework tutor was/is (she moved interstate a year ago) a faceting judge for the Australian arm and a couple of people from my rockhounds club have entered in the past.

So where do most professionals learn if they don't go through this training? Or do you lot just get quicker and more determined

ETA: edited for clarity.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I cannot tell you all how much this discussion helps ... from understanding the cutting aspects, to the background on this "ranking" issue, as well as the buying/selling relationship. As a relative novice to gem buying, I am trying very hard to learn what to look for, what to avoid, what questions to ask, and what my personal tolerances are with different stones. And I can certainly appreciate & respect the pride one takes in their work - be it for hobby or professional purposes. I would hope that I have never truly offended a lapidary when suggesting that the presence of any characteristic is reason for my non-purchase decision and really in no way is intended as negative criticism of the product; rather, it is just a matter of personal preference for me. In this instance, well, I was floored by her responses since I went out of my way to thank her for her efforts when declining to proceed with the purchase. Maybe her being somewhat newer to the field, and appearing to just venture into the "retail" world recently with her gems, she hasn't had to deal with more "scrutinizing" buyers.

At any rate ... I am pursuing stone options with more experienced and respected gem sources. My budget isn't really high for this given other projects underway, but it's not a must-do-now project either, so I can take my time a bit to find the right gem.

Thank you all again for chiming in!

 

[Starzin]

Jo (Jenn?) we're all learning here in some way or another and it's one of the wonderful benefits of PS. We are sooo lucky to have experts like Gene, Dana and many others chime in from time to time and broaden our education

 

[PrecisionGem]

The USFG doesn't actually do training. It's really more of a group or club of cutters. They have these competitions every year, which are open to any members. As you can most likely guess, I am not a member. While there are professional cutters that are members, I would imagine that most members are hobbies. Have a look at the website an pictures of past get togethers. There are not that many people in the US that cut and sell stones, as it's very hard to make much money at it. Most cutters in the US do it as a hobby. Since good rough is very expensive, they end up cutting CZ, lab created sapphire, glass, and often marbles. So to them, these types of clubs are of interest, and competition cutting of this nature becomes interesting.

If one is selling high quality stones, then if the meet on a facet of 3 ct tsavorite garnet, under 40X microscope is perfect or not, has no bearing on the price or salability of the stone.

 

[mastercutgems]

Hi Starzin

You are exactly correct; thank you for the diagram as it is spot on...

Excellent learning tool

Also sometimes on the larger lighter colored gems I will go in and do the zircon culet as that adds another row of facets in the culet area to break-up the 8 fold mirror imagery that can happen in a standard brilliant cut; especially IF the breaks are not brought down to the culet area far enough... It just breaks up light and makes the 8 main facets less noticeable... All these things are trial and error and you learn when and when not to do it with the material you are working with as saturated gems need that open light gathering effect...

We are all on this path to learning... As for the USFG I think they are a nice group; I usually do not play in that sandbox any longer but it was fun when I had time. Like Gene and many others I do not cut synthetics and do not want them in my shop as I do not want a costly mistake to shadow my reputation... I do enough damage with the real stuff LOL But for many that do cut them; they too are just as good a craftsperson as I. I just do not choose to do it as it takes me just as long to cut a natural as a synthetic and time is valuable when you cut for a living to feed your family.

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42

 

[FinewaterGems]

While some USFG cutters take weeks or months to cut a competition stone, it IS possible to cut a master-level qualifying stone in less than one day.

Cutting a competition stone is a worthy exercise for any lapidary. Once you have cut a competition stone I guarantee that you will never look at your own stones the same way. Even if you believe that customers don't notice or care about cutting flaws, YOU will know that they are there!

BTW, USFG judges are prohibited from using anything more than 10x magnification when judging, so this is equivalent to what the average customer or dealer would use to examine a stone.

 

[PrecisionGem]

The issue I have with these competition stones is they DON'T take into account some of the most important, and difficult aspects of cutting stones:

1. Selecting the rough
2. Orientating the rough for the best color and performance
3. Selecting the best design for the rough
4. Choosing the right compromises to produce the most valuable stone from the rough.

They have taken any part of the "artist" out of the equation and have reduced cutting to how well you can duplicate what a high precision CNC machine could do. A CNC machine could be programmed to paint a flawless paint by the number picture. I think they have little value in natural stones being cut for clients.

 

[digdeep]

While some USFG cutters take weeks or months to cut a competition stone, it IS possible to cut a master-level qualifying stone in less than one day.

Cutting a competition stone is a worthy exercise for any lapidary. Once you have cut a competition stone I guarantee that you will never look at your own stones the same way. Even if you believe that customers don't notice or care about cutting flaws, YOU will know that they are there!

BTW, USFG judges are prohibited from using anything more than 10x magnification when judging, so this is equivalent to what the average customer or dealer would use to examine a stone.

Thanks for this response.....however I disagree with the thought that once someone takes the time to cut for a competition that somehow their ethics will fall in line with their cutting. Some people perceive status as more important than honesty and integrity. So, this comment still begs the question as to how this "nationally ranked" cutter didn't explain what WAS seen through the tilt window and how that happened? Seems that would have been an educational and appropriate response in this situation........In no way is this an indictment of this competition--but clearly this person is using that experience for nothing more than advertising......and an attempt at persuasion that may work with those less educated than here.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Thanks for this response.....however I disagree with the thought that once someone takes the time to cut for a competition that somehow their ethics will fall in line with their cutting. Some people perceive status as more important than honesty and integrity. So, this comment still begs the question as to how this "nationally ranked" cutter didn't explain what WAS seen through the tilt window and how that happened? Seems that would have been an educational and appropriate response in this situation........In no way is this an indictment of this competition--but clearly this person is using that experience for nothing more than advertising......and an attempt at persuasion that may work with those less educated than here.

The only "explanatory" response I received from her specific to the windowing was: "You don't get a window from thickening a girdle. Obviously, you don't know WHY they occur, and yet, you seem convinced that there is one."

I never said in my email to her that the windowing was because of the thick girdle. When she went Jekyll/Hyde at the windowing being the reason I was not buying it, I stated that she herself said in her video (can't recall if it was the first one she sent or the second) that she was cutting this stone to preserve carat weight, and that I am aware that - in doing so - the results sometimes include compromises, like windows, and that for rare collector stones, that might be acceptable or forgivable to a buyer, but it wasn't a compromise I was willing to accept for this item.

Now, if this stone had been "bargain priced" because of the cut issue/s, might I have bought it for a pendant or something if I was in the market (and she didn't fly off the handle at me)? Perhaps. But it was somewhere around $250-300 when I first contacted her, and then she raised the price to $700+ an hour later (before this all went down) "per the gem guide".

There are FAR & AWAY better cut stones on our PS faves' sites and even ebay (from select sources, mind you) for those prices and higher, and justifiably so. And I would rather give my money to them whether it was a $50 or $5000 stone. But this stone in particular ... not worth it (to me, for THIS project) at the "before" price and certainly not the higher price. And I definitely don't want to support her business out of guilt.

 

[Starzin]

Gene - well... I guess I can see that, having learned to facet (even as a hobby), some people people like to take their hobby to the next level. That's why people enter their cakes and woodworking in state shows and for gem aficionados who learn to facet, entering the USFG competitions is a bit like that. I have poked around the website before actually when I was talking to Pauline about her judging for the Australian competitions.

However I also have to say that the members of the rockhound group take great pleasure in what they learn and achieve and are always ready to pass on knowledge. It is also interesting to see how much they encourage the kids during school holidays - 12 year olds at the cabbing wheels! Also very handy when you drop a cab and chip it to be able to plead for someone to fix it - as I did with a piece of kyanite

I know you have expressed the opinion before that if someone is going to spend the time faceting, they might as well use something worthwhile but as you've also just said, hobbyists find it too expensive. So there has to be some satisfaction in being able to produce a goodie sample box like this for the amateur.

What was the first stone you cut? Do you still have it? Picture please

These were cut by Pauline's partner Jack Bushby who died several years ago.

 

[Starzin]

Hi Dana

Pleased I got it right Just happened to find that one quickly. And for those following along, although breaks and mains are labelled on the crown of the diagram above, I gather from the conversation that those terms apply to the pavillion as well.

You also bring up the good point - which I personally didn't realise for a long time - that not all patterns are suitable for any old gem. Some patterns do not serve a particular material at all well. So glad "our" faceters all seem to have that sorted

I fully understand and appreciate what both you and Gene are saying - and I agree what's more - that if you are serious about faceting and going to spend money on good material then you need to sell it to not only recoup costs but also make a profit.

I'm never going to get into faceting as I said above but I'm ever so glad that I stumbled on the wirework class at a (relatively) local rockhound group - they are genuinely nice people.

Here's a link for the learners with lots of coloured dots - it's at this stage my head hurts...
http://www.howtofacet.com/reading_and_understanding_faceting_diagrams/index.shtml

 

[Starzin]

Gary -
I can't comment on the rest but so pleased you mentioned the 10x magnification because that's what I thought Pauline told me - that they only use a loupe for judging.

Gene -
While I totally agree about your points because those ARE the things that make cutters outstanding, doesn't everyone learning a skill have to start somewhere?

They have taken any part of the "artist" out of the equation and have reduced cutting to how well you can duplicate what a high precision CNC machine could do. A CNC machine could be programmed to paint a flawless paint by the number picture. I think they have little value in natural stones being cut for clients.

Even if an artist has the very best oils, brushes and canvases, if they can't draw to begin with it doesn't help a lot. Learning to read a facet pattern by starting with a spinel doesn't seem a particularly good choice to me - I like baby steps. What if I mucked it up?

 

[FrekeChild]

Gary -
I can't comment on the rest but so pleased you mentioned the 10x magnification because that's what I thought Pauline told me - that they only use a loupe for judging.

Gene -
While I totally agree about your points because those ARE the things that make cutters outstanding, doesn't everyone learning a skill have to start somewhere?

They have taken any part of the "artist" out of the equation and have reduced cutting to how well you can duplicate what a high precision CNC machine could do. A CNC machine could be programmed to paint a flawless paint by the number picture. I think they have little value in natural stones being cut for clients.

Even if an artist has the very best oils, brushes and canvases, if they can't draw to begin with it doesn't help a lot. Learning to read a facet pattern by starting with a spinel doesn't seem a particularly good choice to me - I like baby steps. What if I mucked it up?

Sure, practicing on glass and other inexpensive materials is the best way to do it financially. But that's not what Gene is saying about the competitions. The competition is about perfectly replicating a cut diagram. But in real life, cutters have a myriad of other skills that they have to put to use aside from just cutting to perfect measurements and guidelines and making identical stones.

I think that even if you had 5 identical pieces of rough, and distributed it to 5 different cutters, you'd end up with 5 different stones. And that's part of the beauty and artistry of cutting. There is a lot of judgement involved. The actual physical act of cutting material (whatever that material might be!) is probably one of the easiest parts of job. But I've never done it myself, but the picking rough always seems the most intimidating to me, and where the real skill and expertise comes to play.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Gary -
I can't comment on the rest but so pleased you mentioned the 10x magnification because that's what I thought Pauline told me - that they only use a loupe for judging.

Gene -
While I totally agree about your points because those ARE the things that make cutters outstanding, doesn't everyone learning a skill have to start somewhere?

They have taken any part of the "artist" out of the equation and have reduced cutting to how well you can duplicate what a high precision CNC machine could do. A CNC machine could be programmed to paint a flawless paint by the number picture. I think they have little value in natural stones being cut for clients.

Even if an artist has the very best oils, brushes and canvases, if they can't draw to begin with it doesn't help a lot. Learning to read a facet pattern by starting with a spinel doesn't seem a particularly good choice to me - I like baby steps. What if I mucked it up?

Sure, practicing on glass and other inexpensive materials is the best way to do it financially. But that's not what Gene is saying about the competitions. The competition is about perfectly replicating a cut diagram. But in real life, cutters have a myriad of other skills that they have to put to use aside from just cutting to perfect measurements and guidelines and making identical stones.

I think that even if you had 5 identical pieces of rough, and distributed it to 5 different cutters, you'd end up with 5 different stones. And that's part of the beauty and artistry of cutting. There is a lot of judgement involved. The actual physical act of cutting material (whatever that material might be!) is probably one of the easiest parts of job. But I've never done it myself, but the picking rough always seems the most intimidating to me, and where the real skill and expertise comes to play.

Freke you are spot on!

It's almost like that Design Challenge show on HGTV, where they have a bunch of interior decorators, and they give them a blank identical room to work with. Each person comes up with something unique and hopefully artistic. The same thing with the stones. These competitions would be much more meaningful if everyone had identical rough, and the idea was to turn out the most beautiful and valuable finished product. The problem, it would be difficult to get the identical rough.

To me, the level of difficulty in cutting stones goes like this.

1. Finding the rough
2. Deciding on the best cut for the piece of rough
3. Orientating the stone to maximize the color, performance and size, balancing out the compromises
4. Photographing the cut stone
5. Dealing with the website, emails etc.
6. Polishing the cut stone
7. Cutting the stone