Please Help!! I''m in tears and confused

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/6/2007 5:58:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/6/2007 5:40:55 AM
Author: strmrdr
Garry.
We can argue all day if its a decent stone or not (we cant assume it has decent optical symmetry because a lot of stones don''t which throws the DC models out the window) and under some conditions it could very well be nice but its a fact that it was misrepresented.

This one is a no brainer in court, the gia report says the cut is good, the vendor says ideal which is the judge going to believe?
Enough to get triple damages right there and maybe a conviction if it can be proven the vendor saw the cut grade before the sale.

Any freshman attorney in court would have no trouble pointing to proportions in AGS''s old, oldest or fairly oldest proportion guides to cautters and GIA''s Facetware to argue that case either way Storm.

It is a null and void arguement from a legal stand point.

And the retailer could always point to HCA as being a fore runner to (and a format copied by) GIA - so therefore also a valid criteria.

So law will not help here.

HCA would have no standing in the case.
The old AGS guidlines might make a little headway but what it comes down to is that the GIA report will be viewed as the paperwork the sale was based on.
The sale was based on the GIA color and clarity and weight, the vendor would have a very hard time saying that the cut grade didnt apply.

 

[RockDoc]

In my opinion, having been an actual expert witness, I think if this was argued in court, you'd have a much tougher time with this than both of you think.

Treble damages are not easily awarded by triers of fact. The misrpesentation needs to be a lot more outrageous.

Other factors would also apply. Firstly WHO would be the trier of fact? This could be filed as a jury trial. If so, the decision might be affected by the geographic area on which it is heard. Some areas of the US, have un-sympathetic juries, others can be just the opposite.

This is a case where it is "my expert - vs. your expert" would be a major part of the case. If one side has a highly regarded expert, and the other doesn't.... the weight of testimony as evidence, would be the guiding factor in the verdict.

In addition, one must also consider the ability, presentation, and preparation as well as the conduct of the witnesses and attorneys in the courtroom.

This is not as "hands down" type of case that Storm feels it is. The HCA vs. GIA and AGS would be considered but what would commonly be considered as "trade practice", is at issue. While GIA and AGS are considered "standards" - I think making the HCA into a standard, would be very difficult, as it's use is not a prevalent industry practice in analysis of a diamond's quality. A primary part of the evidence is oral and possibly not written. Written evidence is always given a lot more weight, than oral representations. If the seller issued an appraisal, which stated the cut quality as something different than the resultant GIA grading, that would be strongly considered, if it existed, but if not it's more of a "he said - she said" presentation and as such given a lot less weight in testimony.


Then there potentially is another problem with this matter. It is the "responsibility" of the plaintiff to mitigate damages. A reasonable defense could be introduced that the buyer DIDN'T do what a "reasonable" person would do. That is, to have the item checked by an independent expert, done in a timely manner after the purchase. Waiting 4 weeks until after the purchase to become concerned about the quality of the cut - or checking the other characteristics such as weight, clarity and color could be an issue. On the other side of the coin, whether total reliance on the seller's is reasonable or not also has some consideration.

Also one needs to consider of whether this case has the financial merit to be tried. What are the actual damages, which is essential, and the responsibility of the plaintiff to prove?

A good expert witness, and attorney SHOULD recommend arbitration of mediation in such a matter. The costs in presenting such a case would far exceed the material misrepresentation.

Unless the attorney - freshman or otherwise is familiar with the practices of the diamond industry, he has to be "schooled" in this in order to present the most persuasive case for his client. This could take loads of professional hours between the expert, the client and the attorney. Would this case actually merit such preparation? I doubt it.

So just my two cents, from the standpoint of being an expert. Been there - done that.

Rockdoc

 

[kev_800]

Just an FYI,

At least in the U.S., almost every state to my knowledge has consumer fraud laws, which prohibits intentional misrepresentation in order to close a sale. The kicker is that most consumer fraud statutes permit recovery of attorneys fees Under no scenario is a ''good'' cut grade equal to an ''ideal'' or ''excellent'' when a buyer speciifcally asks for the cut ''grade.'' Punitive damages do not = treble damages. Also, most cases don''t have the financial merit to be tried, but that doesnt stop a lot of plaintiffs from filing

I agree with you RocDoc that waiting 4 weeks to determine whether the purchase is satisfactory is unacceptable and unreasonable. At some point a sale needs to be final, barring any sort of warranty claim.... and obviously being dissatisfied is not a warranty claim.

It sounds here like the seller intentionally misrepresented the cut grade of the diamond, and it was the misrepresentation that induced the purchaser to buy the diamond. Obviosly a 4k stone isn''t worth the fight in court, but people have sued for less. If I were the buyer I''d return it ASAP and take my money elsewhere. There are a host of legal and non-legal remedies in a situation like this so long as the buyer is aggressive about it there should be no reason why he or she can''t come out on top. Primarily, if they used a credit card, all he or she needs to do is call the credit card company and challenge the charge, the seller won''t get paid, and won''t have the diamond.... so they will be forced to come to the buyer to get the matter resolved. That is one of the reasons why sellers offer ''discounts'' for wire transfers....

Just my two cents.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Class n Sass,

Date: 3/5/2007 8:37:22 PM
Author: Class n Sass
Rhino,

Great info. What you mentioned about the fire and scintillation in non-spot lighting is something that I have been noticing. In jewelry stores and many department stores the sparkle is great!! However in natural lighting not so much. It tends to looks sorta flat. This was also a concern of mine.

Right. This is the feature that concerns me. It''s appearance in the more common viewing environments away from spot lighting. When or if you make your comparison, be sure it is done in those environments. There are some shallow angled GIA VG''s that look fine but when approaching the VG/G zone ... well... I don''t care for them and would not buy especially if my expectations were for an ideal cut.

I have another bit of news you should consider. Even if you make the comparison and *don''t* see a difference between the 2 I''d still recommend purchasing the GIA Ex/AGS Ideal. I know you''ll probably never resell the diamond or the ring or trade or anything like that BUT if you ever did decide to do that a GIA Ex/AGS Ideal (or even better a stone that falls within the zenith of both labs top cut grades) is a stone that will always be in the highest demand and a guaranteed winner. Just things I think about as a daily buyer.

But I didn''t know if this was the case with all diamonds, even with diamonds that have better specs than mine. If I do end up returning the stone what suggestions could you give?

I recommend purchasing diamonds that fall in the zenith of GIA Ex/AGS Ideal specs. Unfortunately this is not the simplest thing to explain but in brief ...

1. A proportion set that falls within both labs top cut grades.
2. None to minimal painting or digging of the girdle facets checked with a Helium scanner/report.
3. Preferably Ex or Ideal polish/symmetry grades (although you wouldn''t see a difference in GIA VG/AGS Ex polish/symmetry grades).
4. A 3d scan of the diamond ran through AGS Performance Grading Software if it isn''t AGS graded already.
5. At the very least a GIA Ex or AGS Ideal.

There''s additional data I like to see and review such as optical symmetry via H&A imagery, ASET imagery, BrillianceScope results etc. but you''re off to a healthy start with the first suggestions.

Also, do you think he overpaid for the stone at $4100?
Thanks

Nope. That''s a fair price for a B&M however B&M''s that compete on the net can and will do better in many circumstances even on stones of the caliber which I speak of above.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/6/2007 4:43:59 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/6/2007 3:51:56 AM
Author: Lorelei
Great stuff Garry!!!!!

But because I know Storm will object - this is what happens if you look at the stone from very very close up (like 8 inches).

So if you want to do that then return the stone.

But few people do except when they are actually buying the diamond.

Otherwise you can enjoy additional benefits.

Guess this just confirms how odd I am, because after 3+ years, I still DO gaze into my diamond that close up.

 

[Class n Sass]

The diamond was purchased from a jeweler in NYC''s Diamond District. We went off of a recommendation. The daughter owner of the jeweler is a former co-worker of mine.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/6/2007 8:29:17 AM
Author: RockDoc

This is not as ''hands down'' type of case that Storm feels it is.

Wholeheartedly agree here - it''s not even close to being as open/shut as suggested. Not even remotely.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I just look it as simply a case of the truth being stretched and I wouldn''t want to do business with someone who did this. So I''d return it and start over.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 3/6/2007 5:25:39 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I just look it as simply a case of the truth being stretched and I wouldn''t want to do business with someone who did this. So I''d return it and start over.

Me too. If they kicked up a fuss I''d tell them I am going to call the BBB and the Attoney General''s office and report them. If that didn''t work, I would follow up by doing exactly that and see if that garners any results.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 3/6/2007 5:40:37 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 3/6/2007 5:25:39 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006

I just look it as simply a case of the truth being stretched and I wouldn''t want to do business with someone who did this. So I''d return it and start over.

Me too. If they kicked up a fuss I''d tell them I am going to call the BBB and the Attoney General''s office and report them. If that didn''t work, I would follow up by doing exactly that and see if that garners any results.

me three. i also think there is some Jewelers society or something that you can report them to that can really affect the Jewelers so I''d consider that too.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/6/2007 5:47:39 PM
Author: mrssalvo



me three. i also think there is some Jewelers society or something that you can report them to that can really affect the Jewelers so I''d consider that too.

I think this is who mrss is referring to. Throw their name out if need be, I''m sure they are probably aware of them.

http://www.jvclegal.org/Consumers/index.php?categoryid=11

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 3/6/2007 7:16:48 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 3/6/2007 5:47:39 PM

Author: mrssalvo




me three. i also think there is some Jewelers society or something that you can report them to that can really affect the Jewelers so I''d consider that too.

I think this is who mrss is referring to. Throw their name out if need be, I''m sure they are probably aware of them.


http://www.jvclegal.org/Consumers/index.php?categoryid=11

yep, I''m pretty sure that''s them Ellen..thanks

 

[Class n Sass]

This is great. Thanks so much for everyone''s advice and comments

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/6/2007 9:57:38 PM
Author: Class n Sass
This is great. Thanks so much for everyone''s advice and comments

Please let us know how it goes, ok? And good luck!


Welcome mrss.

 

[WinkHPD]

If you are feeling a little overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of great information and advice that you have been offered here you might just print out some of the more pertinent posts and take them with you to discuss with your vendor. At least then you will have the information to refer to when you are discussing things with your vendor and there will be no forgetting some of the issues you want to discuss. Print them out and make an outline of where you want to go and in what order...

Wink

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/7/2007 12:49:01 PM
Author: Wink
If you are feeling a little overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of great information and advice that you have been offered here you might just print out some of the more pertinent posts and take them with you to discuss with your vendor. At least then you will have the information to refer to when you are discussing things with your vendor and there will be no forgetting some of the issues you want to discuss. Print them out and make an outline of where you want to go and in what order...

Wink

That''s a great idea Wink. I ditto it as well.

 

[Class n Sass]

Great idea...very funny you offer that advice Wink because I was just thinking about doing that. However, in a nutshell I will ask her what exactly she meant by using the term Ideal. I want to know how she defines it because when I think of the word Ideal I think of top-notch. I will also ask her to show us some GIA Excellent stones (even some Very Good ones). I also want to mention to her the issue of the way it looks when it''s not in spot lighting(quoting Rhino). It tends to look flat in very normal/regular atmospheres, but does sparkle a lot when in a jewelry store or department store. Rhino mentioned that this is because of the angles this stone possesses.

Hopefully Rhino will check this again before I go because I am wondering what he notices in the angles. What angles are not quite right? And what angles would you suggest to eliminate this spot lighting issue? I want to be able to say "this depth is too shallow. it should be x%. Or I want to say the crown angle and the pavillion angle are off they should be this" OK, I''m getting nervous. I guess if I don''t feel comfortable before leaving I will mention reporting her to the Association that was mentioned.

Thanks Soooo Much!!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/7/2007 5:02:43 PM
Author: Class n Sass
Great idea...very funny you offer that advice Wink because I was just thinking about doing that. However, in a nutshell I will ask her what exactly she meant by using the term Ideal. I want to know how she defines it because when I think of the word Ideal I think of top-notch. I will also ask her to show us some GIA Excellent stones (even some Very Good ones). I also want to mention to her the issue of the way it looks when it's not in spot lighting(quoting Rhino). It tends to look flat in very normal/regular atmospheres, but does sparkle a lot when in a jewelry store or department store. Rhino mentioned that this is because of the angles this stone possesses.

Hopefully Rhino will check this again before I go because I am wondering what he notices in the angles. What angles are not quite right? And what angles would you suggest to eliminate this spot lighting issue? I want to be able to say 'this depth is too shallow. it should be x%. Or I want to say the crown angle and the pavillion angle are off they should be this' OK, I'm getting nervous. I guess if I don't feel comfortable before leaving I will mention reporting her to the Association that was mentioned.

Thanks Soooo Much!!

Hi Class n Sass,

I generally subscribe to threads I participate in so I got this response soon after you posted.

The quick answer ...

Total depths from the mid 60.x% range to the mid 62.x% range.
Crown angles from 34.0 degrees to 35.0 degrees.
Pavilion angles from 40.6 degrees to 41.0 degrees.
Table size from 54% to 58%
Lower girdles from 75% to 80% (although 85% are just fine too!)
Stars from 50% to 65%

This information will be listed on new GIA Reports and as long as the stone isn't too painted or dug out will recieve the Ex grade which is what you want. GIA does a bit of rounding but not enough to impact the light performance to any notable degree if you stick within the specs above.

Note: There are many more proportion combinations that will produce ideal optics in diamonds but the above are time tested tried and true numbers. Ie. if the diamond has pavilion angles of 41.2 instead of 41.0 a shallower crown angle will produce ideal results like 33-33.5 crown angle coupled with a 41.2 pavilion angle.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress Class. It's a pleasure to help.

 

[Class n Sass]

Thanks...I will let you know what happens tomorrow evening.

 

[Class n Sass]

Rhino...you''ve been so much help. Sorry for the repeated questions but I promise this is the last one. In a nutshell, what are the exact reasons/specifications that make this stone not an Ideal cut stone? That''s what I''ve got to get across to her and show her that I''ve done my research and that I have spoken to other jewelers

Thank You Thank You Thank You

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 3/8/2007 6:47:08 AM
Author: Class n Sass
Rhino...you''ve been so much help. Sorry for the repeated questions but I promise this is the last one. In a nutshell, what are the exact reasons/specifications that make this stone not an Ideal cut stone? That''s what I''ve got to get across to her and show her that I''ve done my research and that I have spoken to other jewelers

Thank You Thank You Thank You

Class n Sass, I am not Rhino, but since HCA is part of your dilemma, and unlike Rhino, I will never offer to sell you or any other pricescopers a diamond (it is in my charter), with great due respect, I should be advising you and not Rhino (who is an advertising and promotionally oriented vendor on Pricescope - as advertisers can and should be).

I directed you to this page http://diamonds.pricescope.com/ideal.asp

It should answer all your questions and you can easily conduct experiments to show the vendor certain aspects of the diamond (unless you find that you actually prefer the stone as more than 1/2 the buying public do in my experiance).

So you need to decide if this is an issue of "a rose by any other name" or about what you want to look at and how you want to look at it.

Please read the page that was written with a huge amount of input from many pricescope prosumers.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/8/2007 6:47:08 AM
Author: Class n Sass
Rhino...you''ve been so much help. Sorry for the repeated questions but I promise this is the last one. In a nutshell, what are the exact reasons/specifications that make this stone not an Ideal cut stone? That''s what I''ve got to get across to her and show her that I''ve done my research and that I have spoken to other jewelers

Thank You Thank You Thank You

It''s the shallow pavilion angle that''s coupled with that crown angle Class. It fails to meet top specs in both GIA and AGS systems for that reason which I happen to stand in full agreement with.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/8/2007 10:08:02 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/8/2007 6:47:08 AM
Author: Class n Sass
Rhino...you''ve been so much help. Sorry for the repeated questions but I promise this is the last one. In a nutshell, what are the exact reasons/specifications that make this stone not an Ideal cut stone? That''s what I''ve got to get across to her and show her that I''ve done my research and that I have spoken to other jewelers

Thank You Thank You Thank You

Class n Sass, I am not Rhino, but since HCA is part of your dilemma, and unlike Rhino, I will never offer to sell you or any other pricescopers a diamond (it is in my charter), with great due respect, I should be advising you and not Rhino (who is an advertising and promotionally oriented vendor on Pricescope - as advertisers can and should be).

While I don''t have the time or energy to get into an arguement with you Garry ...

1. I never offered to sell this person a diamond. She asked for input and as a gemologist who is familiar with the issues I offered it.
2. While I am an advertising vendor I am not beyond being able to give unbiased input to a consumer. I''ve studied each of the cut grading systems enough to know what does and doesn''t make their top grades and why. I call shots as I see them and to my recollection you will not find a single post on this forum in the 6 years I''ve been participating that solicits a sale on my behalf. When I come to this forum to help people, I come here in that spirit. That''s is all.

 

[strmrdr]

Id hammer on the fact that:
GIA "good" cut does not equal ideal cut.
Its the 3rd step down in the GIA system therefor you don''t feel you got what you wanted and paid for.
Why did it take so long to bring it up: just now got the report.

 

[Class n Sass]

So we went back to see the jeweler this evening...not so satisfied. We explained our concern with being told it was an Ideal cur stone but finding out it is a Good cut stone according to the GIA report. She said it was ideal because of the parameters...that''s all she kept saying...she never explained exactly what about the parameters made it an Ideal cut stone. We then asked her if we could see some stones that are Excellent cut(even some Very Good cut stones). She said she had to call and get some stones and that she would call tomorrow to set up a time next week to come back and look at them.

So my fiance said that we will come back and look at them but if we are still not comfortable he wanted to make sure we still had the ability to return the ring for a refund. She pretended she didn''t understand the question and eventually said that we will cross that bridge when we come to it. She did not want to discuss it which was making us feel even more uncomfortable. We stressed to her that we wanted to make sure we know what our future options are. It''s not like if we discuss it next week it will change her answer about returning it. She then went on to say that she never heard of returning rings. She said that if we were to walk up and down 47th Street no one would accept a return. I know that''s not true. What if the girl doesn''t accept the proposal? Is the man out of several thousand dollars and stuck with a ring? She basically gave us a dumb look and pretending to be clueless. My fiance told her that they discussed returns and that she said it was ok to do so. She said yes I told you that it could be returned and exchanged for something else. She then said that by return she meant exchange. Returning and exchanging are 2 different things.

So I am still unsatisfied and her behavior today made it worse. I told her that these questions began coming up last week when we received the report even though he purchased the ring about 4 weeks ago. He walked out of the store without it because he trusted that she would send it immediately which she didn''t. She then tried to tell him that he had a copy of hte certificate all along but he definitely did not. She eventually backed down. She went from telling him that she knows she gave him a copy to asking "so you mean you didn''t have a copy?" She tried to bring up everything else to avoid answering our question about what makes this is ideal stone. Please share your thoughts on this situation

Thank You

 

[Kaleigh]

She''s giving you guys the round around for sure. I wouldn''t want to deal with someone like that now or in the future. She''s acting as though she doesn''t hear anything you guys are saying. I''d return the ring if you truly want to. And buy from an online vendor. But that''s just me.

 

[strmrdr]

Was it bought with a credit card?
What does it say on the receipt - does it mention ideal cut?
A lot of diamonds/rings are sold as all sales are final but with the misrepresentation here that should not apply.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 3/8/2007 11:14:20 PM
Author: Class n Sass
What if the girl doesn't accept the proposal? Is the man out of several thousand dollars and stuck with a ring?

Not sure, but could be.

For example, straight up, one set of criteria people will use to pick one vendor from another on this board is simply the length of the arm of their return policy. Typically, here, it ranges from 10 days to 30 days. Though it could be argued (to someone) in your case, there were extenuating circumstances, you really would prefer to not argue, if you could.

I think I'd try two tacks...honey and vinegar.

a) get a friend to pretend to go in to shop for a diamond, get him to represent the return policy is important, get him to get the time frame you want to work in writing...ie. if you need 2 months...see if your friend can walk out the door with something in writing that says, within 2 months (or whatever) a diamond can be returned, for cash. Obviously, your friend going in would just represent himself, and not confess to knowing anything about you.

b) separately, make her wish for good will work for you. What you do want is to see options that you really would consider in trade. Is she already clear from you about what it is you want to see. If not, make sure before you go in that what she would show you meets those expectations on paper...as neither you nor she should waste each other's time any more than is necessary.

c) not a third tack...but re-read Garry's earlier posts. While all this is going on, on the very possible chance that you've got a pretty favorable stone based on the original effort...you might have an eye to maintaining that as within your mind frame still.

 

[RockDoc]

This person has all the earmarks, of being a problem merchant. Getting a refund you''ll find to be just about impossible.

If you paid by credit card, dispute it based on misrepresentation.

In not providing the grading report, seems that this is "theft by deception".

If you do not want to persue this legally, then get an expert to check whatever she wants to exchange it for.
I generally have a really good nose, and I believe the next step is that she will exchange it, but the new replacement will cost additional. In that the price you paid was for the item as described, you should not pay anything additional, in exchanging it.

Make sure that next time you have an expert to examine the stone if you are going to consider replacing it.

Keep notes as to what happens as you go along, and date your notes.

Rockdoc

 

[Rhino]

Good advice Rock.

Class, the "parameters" the sales lady is referring to are AGS ideal parameters prior to June 2005. Regrettably AGS has continued to allow the old and the new cut grading systems to continue alongside each other for manufacturers deciding not to go with the new light performance based reports (a big mistake IMO and this is a perfect example why). If I''m not mistaken I believe the old system completely expires this month. In the old AGS system it would have received an "ideal" grade based on the proportional measurements however in the new light performance based system I took the time to make a model of a stone with the parameters you listed from the report and ran it through the AGS light performance grading software and the stone comes out to a (very likely) light performance grade of "4" (on a scale that runs from 0-10, 0 being ideal).

I hope everything works out for you and your boyfriend.

Kind regards,