Please help me with this 4 ct sapphire for LM setting...

[bem3231]

Hi everyone...

I am currently having my diamond reset by Victor Canera. It was suggested to me in Rocky Talk that I look for a colored stone to fit in my old Leon Mege setting. It is a micropave twisted split shank with a pave basket. I think that a blue sapphire would really stand out. My original stone is 8.95 - 8.99 X 5.49, and the ring can't be modified too much, so I have been told by both Pricescopers and by way of my inquiry to Jeff White that it would be very difficult / expensive to find a stone that would be a good fit.

Victor said that he would have a look for a stone for me. He is currently at the Vegas gem show and has found a few contenders. The one that he is suggesting is a 4 carat heated stone (I'm not wanting to pay a premium for unheated) that he thinks would be good as it's already diamond faceted and so not as deep as typically cut stones. It is currently 9.9mm and Victor suggested that it could be polished down to 9mm in order to fit my setting.

I do not currently have any other information about the stone, other than it's priced at $8000.00. I will attach a photo.

Although I have done some reading and research on colored stones in general and sapphires in particular, I am, admittedly, a total newbie to the world of colored stones. I have asked Victor for any additional information about the stone (grading info, etc.), however to be honest, I'm not really even sure what to ask about. I am really trusting Victor's judgment here given his expertise and given that it's hard to pick up the vagaries of gemstones going by photos alone.

My other option would be to have Wink Jones custom cut a lab-created sapphire to set into my ring, which would allow me to determine whether I like the look prior to investing in a natural sapphire. That said, if this is an ideal opportunity to get a great stone that will fit my setting well at a reasonable price then I don't want to regret passing it up.

Some questions that I would love feedback on:

1 - Is $8000 a reasonable price for a 4 carat stone?

2 - What specifics should I ask about in order to determine the quality of this particular stone?

3 - In your opinion is polishing to size a reasonable approach?

4 - Would a custom cut lab-created sapphire give me a reasonable idea of whether I wished to invest in a naturally created stone?

5 - Based on the photo, what are your thoughts on this stone?

I apologize for the somewhat scattered nature of these questions. I generally come to the PS forums with a lot more more pre-reading and research under my belt than in this case, however I need to make a decision very quickly and am feeling a bit overwhelmed! It's a lot of money to shell out for a poor decision, so I'm hoping that I can mine the wonderfully invaluable knowledge and expertise of you dear Pricescopers!

Thank you so much!

 

[iLander]

Hard to tell from the photo, but it looks a bit dark. I would prefer a medium colored stone, myself.

Did you get a photo with more light on the stone? There appears to be a light right on the stone, and you're not getting much color.

You can have a sapphire precision cut by our talented faceters (see the trusted vendors listing) and I suspect it will be a bit more exciting. It's like hearts and arrows on diamonds, it make a different in the overall appearance. That would be a huge piece of rough, though. I'm not sure of who would have a piece that big.

Send Gene of Precision Gem or Jerry of Gemart Services a try, they might have something.

But there is something to be said for "a bird in the hand".

 

[bem3231]

Thanks very much for your reply.

I do not have another photo of the stone, but could request one. Victor said that he was impressed with the color for the price, but I do not have other color-related details than that.

Yes, ideally it would be nice to get something cut, but the size of the rough needed seems to be the problem. I've been told that it might be prohibitively expensive, and I don't want to pay for a lot more stone than I end up getting...

 

[minousbijoux]

I'd agree with iLander that it would be nice to have more photos to get a better sense. But that said, I can't imagine buying a 4 ct sapphire and having what sounds like a good deal of weight "polished off" to fit a setting. Has Victor told you how much weight would be lost?

It does look like a well saturated stone, BTW...

 

[bem3231]

I'd agree with iLander that it would be nice to have more photos to get a better sense. But that said, I can't imagine buying a 4 ct sapphire and having what sounds like a good deal of weight "polished off" to fit a setting. Has Victor told you how much weight would be lost?

It does look like a well saturated stone, BTW...

Thank you very much for your feedback... it is much appreciated and I hope that other's will weigh in, too!

I asked Victor and he wasn't sure what I'd lose in carat weight through the polishing process, however I think that the trade-off is that given that this is an RB faceted stone, it's not as deep as round sapphires are typically cut. I've found other round sapphires that are the right diameter, but are too deep to fit the setting, and given that it's a pave basket I don't have wiggle room on depth. I think that Victor's sense that this was a very good choice was based on the notion that, other than having to have something custom cut (which I'm told would result in a lot of waste anyways that I'd be paying for), this stone would have to lose some diameter but would otherwise fit. I think it's either lose carat weight in diameter, or in depth by having to recut a too-deep stone.

I have asked Victor for more photos to show the color. Hopefully he is able to send me something...

 

[FrekeChild]

I like the color.

But do YOU like the color? That's the important part. And the color could change a little bit if it is recut/polished. It might lighten up!

 

[bem3231]

I like the color.

But do YOU like the color? That's the important part. And the color could change a little bit if it is recut/polished. It might lighten up!

Yes, I suppose that is true. I actually tend to like stones that are probably a little darker than the 'ideal' norm. I do like the looks of it - it's just hard to tell when you can't see it in real life.

I just heard back from Victor, and he said that he tried photographing the stone a few times but it kept coming out darker than it appears in real life - so that might be a plus.

I was also toying with the idea of setting a synthetic in my ring until I find another natural stone that is 'just right'. However, given that I have pave stems Victor has said that it will be a pretty complicated job. I'm thinking that I might be best not to toy with it too much.

I have been looking online and $8000 seems like a reasonable price for a 4 carat sapphire. I do trust Victor and his eye so I am assuming that he thinks that it is well priced and a good value.

I really don't know what to do - it's a big purchase to make sight unseen on a whim, however the likelihood is that whenever I purchase a stone it will be sight unseen, as I do not live local to anywhere that I'd be able to choose a stone in person. What to do?...

 

[minousbijoux]

Okay, it sounds more complicated than I understood before. One thing to keep in mind is that it may darken in the setting, depending on how closed in it is. But Freke has a point that it would likely lighten if recut.

Still, I'm puzzled about how a stone could be cut down width-wise but not depth-wise without affecting the facet angles, and as a result, the stone's performance. This is a question for a cutter.

Do you know what is the maximum depth of a stone that would fit in the setting?

OTOH, if you want to do it, go for it!

 

[bem3231]

Okay, it sounds more complicated than I understood before. One thing to keep in mind is that it may darken in the setting, depending on how closed in it is. But Freke has a point that it would likely lighten if recut.

Still, I'm puzzled about how a stone could be cut down width-wise but not depth-wise without affecting the facet angles, and as a result, the stone's performance. This is a question for a cutter.

Do you know what is the maximum depth of a stone that would fit in the setting?

OTOH, if you want to do it, go for it!

My original stone is 8.95 - 8.99 X 5.49, and Victor say that I pretty much need a stone of the exact same dimensions in order to make it work. I will attach a photo of my setting.

I will call Victor tomorrow morning and ask him these questions. It's not really that I'm in a super-rush to find a stone - I'm not really in a rush at all. That said, although I would trust Victor to set it, there is no one local to me whom I would trust to tinker with my ring. Given that I'm in Canada it's a bit complicated to get the setting to him, so the timing of getting something now would be good in that the setting is already in his hands and I could pick up the sapphire ring at the same time as my new Emilya set. That said, I wasn't factoring an $8000 spend into my budget right now. It's just a big decision to have to make in one day!

Thanks again for the feedback!

 

[chrono]

You are definitely correct that it is more of a challenge trying to find a stone with good colour that must be both round and fit the setting.

1. Is $8000 a reasonable price for a 4 ct stone?
I wish there's an easy answer for you. Firstly, it is difficult to judge from that one picture but I am using the white padding as the white balance reference. The stone was flooded with light in looking at how dark the shadow is. Therefore, my guess is that this sapphire is going to need strong lighting to look blue and probably will look somewhat dark under cloudy conditions. Although this may be a colour and tone you like, darker toned stones should be priced less than medium dark toned stones. Secondly, there will be a good bit of $$$ loss for you. Firstly, you are paying for a 4 ct stone. Secondly, you are paying for a lapidary's services. Thirdly, you end up with a stone that is smaller (likely to be around 3 ct), therefore, valued less than the original price, PLUS the valuation drop under the 4 carat mark. Pricing will also depend on the colour and treatment of the sapphire.

2. What specifics should I ask about in order to determine the quality of this particular stone?
Unless you know what you are looking for and looking at, most people are not able to judge the quality of a gemstone, which is where gem labs and appraisers come into play. Is Victor able to give you an approximation of the hue (purity of colour - is it pure blue or has a violet undertone)? How about saturation? Is it medium, strong or vivid? How is the tone? Is it a medium dark or dark? You mentioned that it is heated only. Can that be verified? By who? If I am spending $8K on that, I'd want it accompanied by at least an AGL brief, if not, a full prestige report with colour quality estimation.

3. Is polishing to size a reasonable approach?
To reshape a stone by 1 mm requires more than "polishing". You are losing almost 10% of the face up size. The stone has to be re-cut. There are inherent risks to recutting. There is the $$$ loss which I alluded to in #1. There is no guarantee that the colour will not be affected when that much material is lost. The stone could well be lighter in tone (which in this case might be a good thing) but it could also lose saturation, becoming less intense in colour. Sometimes, the lapidary has to cut around inclusions which will net you a smaller stone that expected or a feather might end up growing. I don't know if there's any zoning that might end up becoming more apparent.

4. Would a custom cut lab-created sapphire give me a reasonable idea of whether I wished to invest in a naturally created stone?
Coloured stones by virtue of having lower RI and higher density than diamonds will almost always be deeper than diamonds. If cut to the same specifications, the coloured stone will usually be poorly coloured and have cut issues like windowing. Coloured stones are judged by colour, and that added depth is needed to help preserve that colour. Not only that, that added depth allows the proper combination of crown and pavilion angles to bring out the brilliance and liveliness of the sapphire. If cut too shallow, windowing will be present. Or at the very least, you'll get tilt windowing at the slightest shift of position. Round diamonds are around 60% depth - my experience is that sapphires do not do well with the same depth percentage. In order to keep to the same depth, the face up size then will be smaller, and that might create other issues with the prongs fitting in to hold the stone. With a smaller stone, this difference is negligable but not so when it comes to larger stones. Perhaps going the route of a lab created stone will be a good trial.

 

[bem3231]

You are definitely correct that it is more of a challenge trying to find a stone with good colour that must be both round and fit the setting.

1. Is $8000 a reasonable price for a 4 ct stone?
I wish there's an easy answer for you. Firstly, it is difficult to judge from that one picture but I am using the white padding as the white balance reference. The stone was flooded with light in looking at how dark the shadow is. Therefore, my guess is that this sapphire is going to need strong lighting to look blue and probably will look somewhat dark under cloudy conditions. Although this may be a colour and tone you like, darker toned stones should be priced less than medium dark toned stones. Secondly, there will be a good bit of $$$ loss for you. Firstly, you are paying for a 4 ct stone. Secondly, you are paying for a lapidary's services. Thirdly, you end up with a stone that is smaller (likely to be around 3 ct), therefore, valued less than the original price, PLUS the valuation drop under the 4 carat mark. Pricing will also depend on the colour and treatment of the sapphire.

2. What specifics should I ask about in order to determine the quality of this particular stone?
Unless you know what you are looking for and looking at, most people are not able to judge the quality of a gemstone, which is where gem labs and appraisers come into play. Is Victor able to give you an approximation of the hue (purity of colour - is it pure blue or has a violet undertone)? How about saturation? Is it medium, strong or vivid? How is the tone? Is it a medium dark or dark? You mentioned that it is heated only. Can that be verified? By who? If I am spending $8K on that, I'd want it accompanied by at least an AGL brief, if not, a full prestige report with colour quality estimation.

3. Is polishing to size a reasonable approach?
To reshape a stone by 1 mm requires more than "polishing". You are losing almost 10% of the face up size. The stone has to be re-cut. There are inherent risks to recutting. There is the $$$ loss which I alluded to in #1. There is no guarantee that the colour will not be affected when that much material is lost. The stone could well be lighter in tone (which in this case might be a good thing) but it could also lose saturation, becoming less intense in colour. Sometimes, the lapidary has to cut around inclusions which will net you a smaller stone that expected or a feather might end up growing. I don't know if there's any zoning that might end up becoming more apparent.

4. Would a custom cut lab-created sapphire give me a reasonable idea of whether I wished to invest in a naturally created stone?
Coloured stones by virtue of having lower RI and higher density than diamonds will almost always be deeper than diamonds. If cut to the same specifications, the coloured stone will usually be poorly coloured and have cut issues like windowing. Coloured stones are judged by colour, and that added depth is needed to help preserve that colour. Not only that, that added depth allows the proper combination of crown and pavilion angles to bring out the brilliance and liveliness of the sapphire. If cut too shallow, windowing will be present. Or at the very least, you'll get tilt windowing at the slightest shift of position. Round diamonds are around 60% depth - my experience is that sapphires do not do well with the same depth percentage. In order to keep to the same depth, the face up size then will be smaller, and that might create other issues with the prongs fitting in to hold the stone. With a smaller stone, this difference is negligable but not so when it comes to larger stones. Perhaps going the route of a lab created stone will be a good trial.

Thank you so much, Chrono, for taking the time to weigh in and sharing your expertise and feedback. I have read about many of the terms that you mention, but having how they may apply to this stone specifically helps a lot. My gut tells me that I should probably pass on this stone and take my time in exploring alternatives. If $8000 were no big deal to me it would be one thing, but it's a significant outlay of cash for a stone that I may not love. I think that I will give Wink and Chatham a call this morning and see what they say re: synthetics. Thanks again!

 

[1001smiles]

Gemfix has an 8.8 mm round in dark blue, under 5K. Good return policy.
See second row, on the right: http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html

 

[maebelle]

Gemfix has an 8.8 mm round in dark blue, under 5K. Good return policy.
See second row, on the right: http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html

Nice Find! His gems seem to be less deep than other cutters as well. This will likely be pretty dark blue in person, but I don't think it'll be darker than the one above.

 

[chrono]

Would be good to inquire about the depth of the Gemfix sapphire, then proceed with the other questions.

 

[bem3231]

Gemfix has an 8.8 mm round in dark blue, under 5K. Good return policy.
See second row, on the right: http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I actually followed up on this stone a few weeks ago and it is too deep, unfortunately. Victor also sent me a few other stones as suggestions, and one of them he thinks would not need to be corrected for size. I will attach a photo below... Any comments / feedback would be appreciated! I had understood that he was referring to the stone on the left, but he also described it as a 'cornflower blue' which looks more like the stone on the right, so I might have to clarify with him. These stones are around $7500.00.

I also spoke to Chatham this morning and they can do a custom cut of a lab-created sapphire that would be the exact proportions that I need. It would be gemstone quality clarity, and whatever blue I chose (they offer three shades). Feeling torn again...

 

[bem3231]

As I look at the photo more closely it is perhaps the stone on the left, as Victor also made a point of telling me that his camera was making all of the stones look darker than in real life...

 

[bem3231]

As I look at the photo more closely it is perhaps the stone on the left, as Victor also made a point of telling me that his camera was making all of the stones look darker than in real life...

Victor just confirmed that the 'cornflower' stone that he was referring to is the one on the left. He is also back in his studio and is going to bring these stones in question in to have a closer look at them for me. He is so awesome!

 

[minousbijoux]

I have a thought. Can you step away for a second and find photos of sapphires with the color(s) you like? I suggest this because in reality, the one Victor is suggesting looks like unless it is under very bright, very direct light, it will just read as dark dark, with occasional blue flashes. If that's what you want, great, but I think it would help you to visualize what it is that you really want.

I know what its like when you are feeling time pressured and to top it off, you've found someone good to work with and you don't want to let them down. But looking at it from your perspective, once the transaction is completed, it will you and your ring for a long time...I just want to make sure at the end of the day you'll come out with something YOU want and YOU LOVE.

 

[bem3231]

I have a thought. Can you step away for a second and find photos of sapphires with the color(s) you like? I suggest this because in reality, the one Victor is suggesting looks like unless it is under very bright, very direct light, it will just read as dark dark, with occasional blue flashes. If that's what you want, great, but I think it would help you to visualize what it is that you really want.

I know what its like when you are feeling time pressured and to top it off, you've found someone good to work with and you don't want to let them down. But looking at it from your perspective, once the transaction is completed, it will you and your ring for a long time...I just want to make sure at the end of the day you'll come out with something YOU want and YOU LOVE.

Thank you for the suggestion and feedback. The problem that I'm encountering is not really knowing how vendor pics translate into a set stone. I realize that there can be vagaries of color, tone, etc. that translate with difficulty through photos. I have been looking through the 'vendor pics / owner pics' sticky and that is helping a bit. I'll keep at it...

Also, by way of an update, the two stones that Victor was going to call in sold in Vegas, but there are two other 9mm rounds that he is bringing in.

 

[chrono]

I second Minous' suggestion of just looking around online to find THE colour for you. Forget the size, shape, cost or even the lighting conditions. Doesn't even matter if the vendor is reputable or the stone is treated up the wazoo. The purpose is to get an idea of what you are looking for. From there, we will be able to get a good idea of what you are aiming for IRL, and so will Victor. Do not rush - coloured stones take at least twice as long to find compared to diamonds.

I also don't get how a sapphire can have a 60% depth without performance issues. Note that I'm not even one of the gungho precision cut nuts yet this puzzles and concerns me.

 

[minousbijoux]

I also don't get how a sapphire can have a 60% depth without performance issues. Note that I'm not even one of the gungho precision cut nuts yet this puzzles and concerns me.

I totally worry about the depth re performance issue as well.

 

[bem3231]

I also don't get how a sapphire can have a 60% depth without performance issues. Note that I'm not even one of the gungho precision cut nuts yet this puzzles and concerns me.

I totally worry about the depth re performance issue as well.

Chrono and minousbijoux - thanks for voicing your concerns. This is one of the reasons why I'm having a hard time justifying spending thousands on a stone that may have to be compromised - either through re-cutting or less-than-ideal performance or both. I would like to put something beautiful in the setting as I have sentimental attachment to it. I think that a sapphire would be awesome but it seems kind of like fitting a square peg into a round hole if I have to invest in a stone that would not be a good performer. I'm wondering if I should consider other options?...

 

[chrono]

The problem lies in the fact that coloured gemstones need to have a depth of around 65% and upwards to look their best due to their optical properties, density, and refractive index. The 60% depth limitation of your setting is very restrictive.