Poll: Is it ethical/do you feel comfortable having a jeweler recreate a ring you like but can''t aff

[starfire]

Um, why don't you re-read the parts in this thread about how it is ok to rip off someone else's copyright?

What part of this is it not correct to make a judgement against?

I am sorry if your moral and ethical behavious tends toward the unenthical and unscrupulous, but a stand must be made against this.

Sorry if I sound fusty about this.

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On 7/15/2004 2:21:20 PM moremoremore wrote:

'The logic of listening to one 'lengthy' conversation and making a judgement about an entire country?'

Starfire....just so I understand....but it's ok that you read one post about a ring shank and it's ok to make a judgment about one's morals and political beliefs? Just checking...

Guys, seriously, this is going no where and I reported it to leonid....let's get back on track!
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[questionsRus]

ok, back on track it is, and thanks for the "geography" lesson. anyhoo, I would do it, if they forced me to put in their diamond, if their setting price was hugely inflated, or if i lived hours and hours away. that doesn't make me a bad person.

 

[starfire]

Yes, we all know where your moral and ethical stand is, don't we?

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On 7/15/2004 2:26:28 PM questionsRus wrote:

ok, back on track it is, and thanks for the 'geography' lesson. anyhoo, I would do it, if they forced me to put in their diamond, if their setting price was hugely inflated, or if i lived hours and hours away. that doesn't make me a bad person. ----------------

 

[verticalhorizon]

No one is creating the demand for the "Tiffany" pirates, b/c it doesn't exist.

No one is foolish enough to buy an actual Tiffany e-ring for the low-low price of $39.95 (unless you're looking on eBay). It's just one of those nice little things called hypotheticals, which allows us armchair intellectuals to discuss the matter calmly.

If I ask my jeweler to copy a design, I am doing so knowing it's not a Tiffany, and the knowledge that I'm not selling or misleading others into purchasing said Tiffany copy.

Nothing, and I do mean, nothing is ever black and white. That is why we have the judicial system (enforces the law), which is separated from the legislature (creates the law). Quite often, there will arise a situation that requires an official judgment or interpretation of a law based on the specific incident.

Case: Murder bad. No murder good.

What if your family were being attacked by an assailant with a gun? If you were to obtain possession of said weapon and kill the assailant, would this be unethical... immoral? What if you killed the assailant after you were forced to watch him sexually assualt your wife and daughter? Unethical... immoral? Not easy questions to answer if you're not faced with the situation.

(I promise everyone, that's it for me... on to more pressing wedding issues!)

 

[sumi]

I think it's unethical to perfectly copy a piece down to every detail. I don't think it's unethical to get inspiration from a piece, take what you like of the basic concept, and have something made.

If I want a designer piece, I usually get it from the source. The pieces that I like are very minimal, so the beauty I see is very subtle. I don't think that could be recreated perfectly, so I just go to the source. If I can't afford it, I just don't buy it. I don't HAVE to have everything.

Luckily, I have an AMAZING and super-talented jeweler/designer that I work with. When I'm ready to buy a piece, I tell her the basic concept of what I want and give her artistic license to create something for me.

I do understand that if the designer refused to set your own diamond in the piece, that creates a problem. I haven't been faced with that problem so I don't really know what I'd do.

 

[questionsRus]

Man, you just won't quit will you?

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On 7/15/2004 2:27:51 PM starfire wrote:

Yes, we all know where your moral and ethical stand is, don't we?

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On 7/15/2004 2:26:28 PM questionsRus wrote:

ok, back on track it is, and thanks for the 'geography' lesson. anyhoo, I would do it, if they forced me to put in their diamond, if their setting price was hugely inflated, or if i lived hours and hours away. that doesn't make me a bad person. ----------------

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[moremoremore]

"I don't think it's unethical to get inspiration from a piece, take what you like of the basic concept, and have something made."

Sumi- that is the perfect way to put it... That is the basis of the entire fashion and jewelry industry..it's neither unethical nor illegal of done correctly!

 

[starfire]

I am your energizer bunny... going on and on and on and... what the hell.

Let's get it back to friendly discussion and agree to disagree...

Stephen

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On 7/15/2004 2:31:46 PM questionsRus wrote:

Man, you just won't quit will you?

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On 7/15/2004 2:27:51 PM starfire wrote:

Yes, we all know where your moral and ethical stand is, don't we?

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On 7/15/2004 2:26:28 PM questionsRus wrote:

ok, back on track it is, and thanks for the 'geography' lesson. anyhoo, I would do it, if they forced me to put in their diamond, if their setting price was hugely inflated, or if i lived hours and hours away. that doesn't make me a bad person. ----------------

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[pricescope]

Please keep this discussion civil and refrain from personal attacks

 

[JHeebner]

Poll: Is it ethical/do you feel comfortable having a jeweler recreate a ring you like but can't afford/easily find locally?

I posted this question as a means of research for the jewelry trade, as it appears that many PS posters are consumers. I am a journalist for one of the jewelry trade publishing groups. “Knockoffs” are a topic of much discussion—and a source of much of anguish for designers, small and large. Why? Because someone is stealing your work.

Imagine you designed something special—lets take Janel Russell’s Mother and Child jewelry since it was so heavily copied for so many years—a copyrighted design unveiled in 1980. Russell invested time, money, and resources into her business of jewelry design and developed a winner; that Mother/Child design sold to retailers all over the world, people loved it. Great for her, she’s a success at what she does!

But then, other jewelry companies and independent jewelers, either on request or on their own accord, decided to make duplicates of the pieces (for whatever reasons, this really happened). They stole her idea with the intention of profiting from it, and did. Imagine this was you, personally. How would you feel? Good? Pissed? Cheated?

Would you still say:
• it’s “hypothetical” and “really, WHO CARES”
• “I see nothing wrong with copying your favorite setting designer.”
• “it's free advertising” for your piece even though it’s NOT YOURS and you didn’t get the money for the work done?
• “As long as the person recreating it doesn't try to stamp that particular brand on it or copyright their version, its fine with me.” [If so, just send your paychecks to me directly … apparently you won’t miss them because earnings are being rightfully taken from you]
• “… they can solder a joint together entitles them to overcharge for their product because they are now "artists" I say, save as much money as you can and by the knock off, it is the American way.” [No, honey, the ‘American Way’ is enjoying a better life than your parents did because you live in a country that permits so many freedoms and opportunities for personal growth. This is why so many people want to live in our country. And your response indicates why so many others worldwide dislike Americans.]

I am happy to see a few individuals who do not agree with knockoffs:

* I just feel that it is plain unethical and illegal to rip off intellectual property.

* I think it's unethical to perfectly copy a piece down to every detail. I don't think it's unethical to get inspiration from a piece, take what you like of the basic concept, and have something made. If I can't afford it, I just don't buy it. [Everybody is inspired by something! It’s wonderful, and so is this statement.]

I am also intrigued by other statements:

* Who is creating the demand that these pirates are satisfying?

* This is such a strange conversation, in such a forum like PS.

The demand is two-fold: it’s created by consumers asking for knockoffs and by unscrupulous jewelers who satiate requests.

And this is a new conversation for PS, and there should be more if this type if PS is truly a forum for education. Not all diamond/jewelry education is about cuts & table depth. There are other issues, such as this one, that should be addressed. That’s why I stick around.

 

[moremoremore]

I skimmed b/c I have the attention span of a fruit fly!

My my point is this, I am NOT a designer...I'm just a piddly ol' consumer trying to stretch a buck...I am not going to go out of my way to spend more money on something that I can get for cheaper...It is not my job to police the industry...if it is out there and legal and I can get it...I'm going to do it!

I think that's as "unethical" as I get...so I think I'm in pretty good shape

 

[moremoremore]

Hey...I thought journalists were supposed to be impartial? hehehehe...just kidding

 

[Greg]

I don't think it's a good idea to rip off someone else's design. I'm amazed at how many jewelers are willing to do it.

 

[questionsRus]

you didn't say "would you buy a ring from a jeweler who was selling it is a *insertdesignerhere* ring," you said "do you feel comfortable having them recreate one". those are two totally different questions. i personally don't think many people on here would have a ring recreated and then tell people "this is a *insertdesignerhere* ring," they would say "i liked the look of what *insertdesignerhere* made, so i had one custom made to look like it". while that may still sound unethical to you, there is definitely a difference between a dealer taking advantage of someone else's work in hopes of making a profit and an individual trying to get something that is more convenient. just my .02

 

[JHeebner]

<
...I'm just a piddly ol' consumer trying to stretch a buck...I am not going to go out of my way to spend more money on something that I can get for cheaper...It is not my job to police the industry...if it is out there and legal and I can get it...I'm going to do it!

I think that's as 'unethical' as I get...so I think I'm in pretty good shape

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You are certainly free to do as you choose. And no one will slap cuffs on you for asking--or for picking up the finished product of a knockoff. But, consumers should be aware of these ethics issues. Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions, and consumers should be aware that buying a knockoff is unethical, and why (especially if you ask for it). If a piece is in a store when you get there, I wouldn't expect a consumer to think anything wrong about buying it; the onus is on the storeowner for stocking the merchandise if it is a knockoff.

 

[moremoremore]

journalist? u sure?

 

[JHeebner]

you didn't say 'would you buy a ring from a jeweler who was selling it is a *insertdesignerhere* ring,' you said 'do you feel comfortable having them recreate one'. those are two totally different questions. ----------------[/quote]


Yeah, I know, that's why I asked my question. I want to know how many consumers have an understanding of ethics and knockoffs.

I gave the Janel Russell anecdote to explain a knockoff, and how it works.

 

[JHeebner]

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On 7/15/2004 3:38:36 PM moremoremore wrote:

Hey...I thought journalists were supposed to be impartial?

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I'd love to bring balance back to TV news. It's nonexistent there.

 

[questionsRus]

• “… they can solder a joint together entitles them to overcharge for their product because they are now 'artists' I say, save as much money as you can and by the knock off, it is the American way.”

i just thought of something...if some plumber isn't an artist, why would people want to replicate her work?

 

[JHeebner]

Problem, MMM?

 

[moremoremore]

eh??? I don't give my permission to be quoted in your 'article' btw...

I've been INSPIRED to be march right into Tiffanys!!!!!

 

[Hest88]

There's a huge difference between "feeling comfortable" doing something and trying to justify it on moral grounds. I feel comfortable using paper clips from my office for personal mail. However, I'm not going to pretend I'm not taking something that isn't mine by some complicated justification about what "the man" owes me as some paid worker. Stealing really is black and white; the justifications for it are in shades of gray.

 

[CaptAubrey]

it's not ethical to steal someone else's ideas no matter how you rationalize it.




everyone has a price tag on their ethics. for some, it's the $18 they save on a pirated cd; for others it's the $2000 they save on a setting. but at least be honest enough to admit what you're doing. that money you've saved is money you've stolen from the person who owns the idea.




that said, most jewelry is not protected by copyright because you need a certain level of originality to qualify for copyright protection. it has to be a distinctive and original design--the average diamond setting isn't going to be enough. but it's also incorrect to say that it's not protected unless registered. if it qualifies for copyright protection, the protection exists at the moment of creation. and if you commission a close copy, you and the jeweler are guilty of infringment.

 

[questionsRus]

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* I think it's unethical to perfectly copy a piece down to every detail. I don't think it's unethical to get inspiration from a piece, take what you like of the basic concept, and have something made. If I can't afford it, I just don't buy it. [Everybody is inspired by something! It’s wonderful, and so is this statement.]
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i think it's hilarious how you think this is "wonderful". a lot of the time, when someone inspires someone else, that person tries to be like that person, do what that person does....make what that person makes...see what i'm getting at? you just completely contradicted yourself

 

[pricescope]

Thanks for clarification, CaptAubrey.

 

[questionsRus]

what if children could make jewelry. kids always copy things, if they saw their mom making something, they would do the same. sorry kid, you're breaking the law? i still think if the individual that was inspired by the piece didn't try to portray it as the original, they aren't doing anything wrong. after all, imitation is the greatest form of flattery, right?

 

[JHeebner]

No, you're missing the point again. Being inspired by a creation is fine. Tiffany's six-prong dia. engagement ring setting---The Tiffany Setting---has been the inspiration for many other simple, prong-set engagement rings. IE, companies like the idea--a simple prong-set ring---but they alter the look so it's different, such as Cartier's 1895 setting or Stuller's Tulipset. These companies want a simple, prong-set dia. ring, but they don't want it to look identical to Tiffany's---THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE A KNOCKOFF. That's called inspiration.

Aubrey, your post was excellent. Thank you.

 

[foundnemo]

You don't have to break the law to be unethical.

 

[questionsRus]

i haven't missed the point yet. i said individual, not company, and so did you in your original topic title. you are changing what you say. how many people here on ps do you think, after getting a ring recreated, would show it to their friend and say "LOOK AT MY TIFFANY SETTING". my guess is none to many. more likely is that they would say "i had this made because i like the way the tiffany looks, and couldn't afford the real one" that right there is basically saying "this isn't a tiffany".

 

[questionsRus]

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On 7/15/2004 4:24:47 PM foundnemo wrote:

You don't have to break the law to be unethical.----------------

you can also be ethical while breaking the law.