Possible Fake EGL Certificate and Diamond
- Thread starter ASH008
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ASH, you seem admirably level-headed about all this. But I'll still encourage you to not get too swept up at this point in the sue 'em/go for credit card, charge-back mindset that some are urging. Not everything bad or unprincipled in life has a remedy in the law.
If
* EGL confirms that it issued a report corresponding to the one you have in hand, and
* that paperwork matches this stone, insofar as an independent appraiser ascertains its dimensions, carat weight, inscription number (if any) on the stone itself & inclusions, if mapped on EGL report (the copy you posted is too blurry for me to tell if flaws were plotted)
the reality will be that you have received what you paid for, even tho' you, and we, regret that purchase. In such a case, it won't matter what a GIA or AGS lab report might say; this stone was never represented as having a GIA or AGS lab report. And diamond grading is not an uber-precise science in any event, e.g., GIA itself has been known to issue different grading reports for the same diamond.
But even if you're "stuck" in that regard, a possibly fruitful approach would be to go online & find out what your city and state require re merchant notification of return-refund policies. In some jurisdictions, it's OK to simply put the policies in tiny print on the bottom or back of the deposit/full payment receipts. Other jurisdictions require that the policies be posted, e.g., by the register or payment counter, so that a customer can see them before forking over his/her money. If these transactions took place in one of the stricter jurisdictions, the lack of pre-purchase notice could be a useful springboard for you.
Here's the Jewelers Vigilance Committee's (a trade nonprofit based in NYC) Consumer Complaint page; one need not have an open-and-shut, court case in order to use their mediation services, but do call them before you formally file a complaint to make sure you understand the process (the web page isn't as detailed-informative as it might be):
http://www.jvclegal.org/Consumers/index.php?categoryid=18
Wishing you well!
P.S. Should the independent appraisal demonstrate the merchant failed to make any of the disclosures required by the US Federal Trade Commission (e.g., clarity enhancement not revealed), then filing a complaint with the FTC would be a good thing to do, in addition to initiating the charge-back procedure with your credit card company. Quickie overview of FTC mandates here:
http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus34-loupe-advertising-diamonds-gemstones-and-pearls
If
* EGL confirms that it issued a report corresponding to the one you have in hand, and
* that paperwork matches this stone, insofar as an independent appraiser ascertains its dimensions, carat weight, inscription number (if any) on the stone itself & inclusions, if mapped on EGL report (the copy you posted is too blurry for me to tell if flaws were plotted)
the reality will be that you have received what you paid for, even tho' you, and we, regret that purchase. In such a case, it won't matter what a GIA or AGS lab report might say; this stone was never represented as having a GIA or AGS lab report. And diamond grading is not an uber-precise science in any event, e.g., GIA itself has been known to issue different grading reports for the same diamond.
But even if you're "stuck" in that regard, a possibly fruitful approach would be to go online & find out what your city and state require re merchant notification of return-refund policies. In some jurisdictions, it's OK to simply put the policies in tiny print on the bottom or back of the deposit/full payment receipts. Other jurisdictions require that the policies be posted, e.g., by the register or payment counter, so that a customer can see them before forking over his/her money. If these transactions took place in one of the stricter jurisdictions, the lack of pre-purchase notice could be a useful springboard for you.
Here's the Jewelers Vigilance Committee's (a trade nonprofit based in NYC) Consumer Complaint page; one need not have an open-and-shut, court case in order to use their mediation services, but do call them before you formally file a complaint to make sure you understand the process (the web page isn't as detailed-informative as it might be):
http://www.jvclegal.org/Consumers/index.php?categoryid=18
Wishing you well!
P.S. Should the independent appraisal demonstrate the merchant failed to make any of the disclosures required by the US Federal Trade Commission (e.g., clarity enhancement not revealed), then filing a complaint with the FTC would be a good thing to do, in addition to initiating the charge-back procedure with your credit card company. Quickie overview of FTC mandates here:
http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus34-loupe-advertising-diamonds-gemstones-and-pearls
Hello Everyone,
I wanted to provide everyone that has helped with an update. So I just went to an independent appraiser that I found through this website, and (big shock) the specs were pretty far off. On the EGL certificate (not that I felt it was overly reputable), the specs claimed a 1.53 carat, excellent - very good cut, VS1, H color. What was verified by the appraiser was 1.53 carat (the ONLY thing that was right), a good - less than good cut, SI2, and (my favorite part) "O" color. The official value of the diamond and paperwork won't arrive by mail until later this week, but I will be sure to re-visit the store and go from there.
Brian
I wanted to provide everyone that has helped with an update. So I just went to an independent appraiser that I found through this website, and (big shock) the specs were pretty far off. On the EGL certificate (not that I felt it was overly reputable), the specs claimed a 1.53 carat, excellent - very good cut, VS1, H color. What was verified by the appraiser was 1.53 carat (the ONLY thing that was right), a good - less than good cut, SI2, and (my favorite part) "O" color. The official value of the diamond and paperwork won't arrive by mail until later this week, but I will be sure to re-visit the store and go from there.
Brian
Cricketcat
Shiny_Rock
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If you cannot return it I agree that a recut is a way to make some delicious lemonade.Stive85|1399148066|3665632 said:
I'd contact Brian Gavin at www.briangavin.com
Recutting is not that expensive considering how expensive diamonds are.
So it falls below 1.5 ct. Big Deal! It will look and preform soooooooo much better than it does now.
As Stive said, an O-colored diamond can still have superb light performance that will delight you every day forever!
Plus better cut reflects more light so your diamond will look less yellow face up.
And thanks for coming back with an update.
So many people get suckered into EGL-graded diamonds … but then zillions of people gamble in the lottery and Vegas too.
Hope springs eternal.
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Wowzer. I was expecting to read that the independent appraiser marked the color down by maybe 2-3 grades, but 7 color grades? I am confident the merchant knows damned well that stone isn't a H or close to it. If he doesn't, he has no business being in the trade.
I went back to look at your pics of the EGL report, and zoomed in on the date, but it's still tough for me to discern. Is it September 16 of 2012 or 2013?
Either way, there does seem to be something fishy about your report. EGL-USA split away from EGL in 1986, has been an entirely distinct US corporation, which has taken EGL to court more than once in the years since.
So New York City and Los Angeles should not be listed on the blue jacket of an EGL report issued in the past 25+ years. And my Google Images search for EGL reports has failed to turn up one like yours -- with NYC and LA listed on the jacket & displaying a plainer logo, with just the outline of a diamond rather than the more intricate EGL logo seen on the report itself. ETA: Compare your jacket with both a 2008 one & one that has NYC listed
Plus the typeface-layout at the top of your report is more minimalist than any of the EGL reports I'm seeing via Google Images, no matter which EGL lab issued them. Think the QR codes became a feature just this year, but at least as far back as 2003, there was a seal/watermark under the gemologist's signature & a hologram sticker(altho' maybe those are on your report, but aren't showing up in the scans you posted).
I went back to look at your pics of the EGL report, and zoomed in on the date, but it's still tough for me to discern. Is it September 16 of 2012 or 2013?
Either way, there does seem to be something fishy about your report. EGL-USA split away from EGL in 1986, has been an entirely distinct US corporation, which has taken EGL to court more than once in the years since.
So New York City and Los Angeles should not be listed on the blue jacket of an EGL report issued in the past 25+ years. And my Google Images search for EGL reports has failed to turn up one like yours -- with NYC and LA listed on the jacket & displaying a plainer logo, with just the outline of a diamond rather than the more intricate EGL logo seen on the report itself. ETA: Compare your jacket with both a 2008 one & one that has NYC listed
Plus the typeface-layout at the top of your report is more minimalist than any of the EGL reports I'm seeing via Google Images, no matter which EGL lab issued them. Think the QR codes became a feature just this year, but at least as far back as 2003, there was a seal/watermark under the gemologist's signature & a hologram sticker(altho' maybe those are on your report, but aren't showing up in the scans you posted).
Wow, thank you so so much for doing that extensive research on the certificate!! The appraisers (really nice married couple) that I went to is also going to look further into it, and they will try to determine its origin/authenticity. Also, I wasn't even aware that re-cutting the diamond could help, but I'd definitely be willing to consider it if I'm still ultimately stuck with what I have. So far the plan is to wait for the official appraisal specs to come back (which will consist of a full 12 - 14 page documentation, complete with diamond diagram and all) and bring it to the store. If the diplomatic demand of satisfaction doesn't help, then I'm also considering letting the dealer know that I'd be willing to bring attention of the store to social media and/or court, if ultimately need be.
Another interesting development in all of this is how the appraisers that I went to noticed the full credit card # (which was used) listed on the actual receipt. They confirmed that such a thing would at least be deemed illegal in Massachusetts (which is where their appraisal services are), however they weren't sure if the same would apply to Rhode Island law (which is the actual state where the diamond was purchased). Seeking a free consultation with a lawyer may unfortunately also be something to consider. It's rather unfortunate that things have come to this, because all I simply wanted to do was make sure that my fiancee is happy, and have a positive overall experience. At least I have great advice and support, including from all of you through this great forum!
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Good news for you: it's the federal Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act, passed by Congress in 2003, which requires merchants throughout the US, to "truncate" credit/debit card numbers on the customer's receipt, if the receipt is electronically generated:
http://www.business.ftc.gov/documen...ses-truncate-credit-card-information-receipts
Rhode Island expects retailers to post their return-refund policy. If the return-refund policy is not posted, the customer is entitled to a full refund for a return made within 10 business days of the purchase. See 2nd and 3rd FAQs in this section of Rhode Island AG's Consumer Protection Unit web page:
http://www.riag.ri.gov/civil/consumer/consumerfaq.php#RetailStoresandGiftCertificates
Contact info for CPU at bottom of this page:
http://www.riag.ri.gov/civil/consumer/
Here's hoping the return-refund policy is not posted & that not more than 10 business days have passed (not sure of the date of your receipt for the stone in question); that failure would be the easiest basis for pursuing a full refund
http://www.business.ftc.gov/documen...ses-truncate-credit-card-information-receipts
Rhode Island expects retailers to post their return-refund policy. If the return-refund policy is not posted, the customer is entitled to a full refund for a return made within 10 business days of the purchase. See 2nd and 3rd FAQs in this section of Rhode Island AG's Consumer Protection Unit web page:
http://www.riag.ri.gov/civil/consumer/consumerfaq.php#RetailStoresandGiftCertificates
Contact info for CPU at bottom of this page:
http://www.riag.ri.gov/civil/consumer/
Here's hoping the return-refund policy is not posted & that not more than 10 business days have passed (not sure of the date of your receipt for the stone in question); that failure would be the easiest basis for pursuing a full refund
GeorgeStevens
Shiny_Rock
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Wow. It's possible EGL is just such an awful lab that the certificate is valid, but typically an EGL stone is priced as if it were a couple of grades down from a GIA stone, not 7 grades down.
You're right on the chain of escalation starting with the merchant. From there you have several choices - the BBB, a mediation service, a credit-card chargeback, and/or a complaint to a consumer protection agency. In any event, all of these will want to see that you tried unsuccessfully to resolve the dispute with the merchant. If you raise your dispute with the merchant in person and get rejected, the best thing to do is to send the merchant a letter after the conversation describing the conversation you had, being sure to retain a copy for your records, which you will want to produce as part of any complaint. Instead of going in person and potentially making a scene, you might also consider sending the merchant your complaint, documentation, and request for relief in writing and asking for a written reply - again, so you have a record of your complaint and his response. At some point, you may also complain to local media like a newspaper or TV station. They tend to like these sort of stories, particularly if you have good paperwork, and usually the embarrassment will get results. Just remember that there are time limits on some of these mechanisms, e.g. 90 days from the day of the transaction for a credit card.
If it gets to the point of court, you may be able to deal with small claims, which doesn't typically involve paying a lawyer, as long as you're willing to dispute $2500 or less (in Rhode Island). The last resort should be consulting a lawyer. First try to get equitable relief from the merchant in the form of a reversal of the transaction, then deal through the various dispute resolution mechanisms discussed above.
You're right on the chain of escalation starting with the merchant. From there you have several choices - the BBB, a mediation service, a credit-card chargeback, and/or a complaint to a consumer protection agency. In any event, all of these will want to see that you tried unsuccessfully to resolve the dispute with the merchant. If you raise your dispute with the merchant in person and get rejected, the best thing to do is to send the merchant a letter after the conversation describing the conversation you had, being sure to retain a copy for your records, which you will want to produce as part of any complaint. Instead of going in person and potentially making a scene, you might also consider sending the merchant your complaint, documentation, and request for relief in writing and asking for a written reply - again, so you have a record of your complaint and his response. At some point, you may also complain to local media like a newspaper or TV station. They tend to like these sort of stories, particularly if you have good paperwork, and usually the embarrassment will get results. Just remember that there are time limits on some of these mechanisms, e.g. 90 days from the day of the transaction for a credit card.
If it gets to the point of court, you may be able to deal with small claims, which doesn't typically involve paying a lawyer, as long as you're willing to dispute $2500 or less (in Rhode Island). The last resort should be consulting a lawyer. First try to get equitable relief from the merchant in the form of a reversal of the transaction, then deal through the various dispute resolution mechanisms discussed above.
Hi everyone. Thank you so much for the outstanding and helpful advice! It's incredible and equally nice to know that there are kind people such as yourselves who are willing to invest the time it takes to help an overly appreciate stranger (such as myself) with all of this. I'll be sure to keep you posted once I move forward, and hopefully it helps others that may read this in the future as well.
Warmest Regards,
Brian
Warmest Regards,
Brian
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ASH008|1398514801|3660497 said:
Hi Brian, YES you need to contact your credit company if the purchases are within 6 months (possibly 12 months depends on your credit card company) you need to tell them that you purchased rings from this jeweller and that the items were evaluated by an Independent Appraiser and they were grossly misrepresented when you purchased them. You need to document out in writing exactly what happened and have a written copy of your appraisal ready to show the bank/credit card company. Explain to the bank/credit card company that the goods you received were "NOT AS DESCRIBED" by the vendor and that he tricked you into thinking you had purchased a diamond with a much higher colour and clarity than it really is.
Ask them if they can do a credit card reversal on the item because the goods were "not as described" by the vendor. Your bank/credit card company should have a legal or a dispute team that will argue with the vendor on your behalf and you also need to tell the vendor (provided that you are within the banks/credit card company's time requirements for a full transaction reversal) that he either refunds all your money and you give the stone and documents back to you OR the bank/credit card company has the right to do this on your behalf.
I also believe it probably is a real certificate, some older certificates did look like this one and places like Asia, India and Israel have separate labs with different number systems to the main branches of EGL. Having said that it is possible the guy printed his own version of the certificate and it's an uncertified stone. Moral to any other potentially buyers never buy an EGL International diamond without getting it appraised first so you fully understand what you are buying.
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