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Prenuptial Agreement-How should I feel?

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spntoriams

Rough_Rock
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Hello I am writing in this forum because it''s the closest thing I could see that might relate to my topic. I am new to prenuptial agreements. When my now fiance started dating a few years ago, she had mentioned it to me since her family is more well off than me. They are worth a couple of million dollars at least and my family is nowhere at that level. I didn''t think anything of it and said, "Sure, I have no problem. I am marrying you for you and not your money." It was again mentioned here and there last year when we were getting more serious and even more now since we are engaged and are about to book the wedding hall, shop for for the entertainment, etc.

Here is the issue. I mentioned it briefly to my mother last month and she didn''t agree but it wasn''t brought up again. I talked it over with my friend who is a lawyer and he said I should feel violated or there should be a big trust issue. I had already spent about $17,000 on her engagement ring and unfortunately it was stolen two months ago. He said that should have proved to her and her family that I am not into it for the money.

Unfortunately the mom seems to insistent on this before she forks over any money for the wedding and I think this might be a deal breaker. I really am not sure if I should feel angry over this or just continue with my old stance of I love her and I don''t care no matter what. My parents do not agree and neither do my friends but I guess what really matters is what I do and how I feel about her.

Can anyone give me advice? She is in the financial industry and said if it was me or someone else, she would go and have them sign it because she can make a lot of money in the future. Should I sit down with her and say what is more important? Me or the family inheritance?
 
above and beyond emotional thoughts like 'i dont feel like she trusts me' or 'does she think this marriage might fail?'...the way i think about it is ... why would you NOT sign a prenup? do you want their money if the marriage fails? if not, then sign the agreement.

personally, if my parents had a lot of money and wanted my pre-hubby to sign a prenup, i would not think anything of it, because i would think well he's not marrying me for my parents money so why does it matter? if it's important to my parents that their money be protected, why not? it's THEIR money, so this really has nothing to do with me or him. does she have money tied up in this or is it just their money and her potential inheritance? from the parents perspective, why should they trust you?

if it was MY money and i was afraid my pre-hubby was going to take it or something it'd be another matter...and bring up potential trust issues etc. though i do have a friend who is engaged and owns 2 properties and she might have her hubby sign a pre-nup and i think he said he doesn't care because those were not his to begin with so he'd be fine with legally taking them out of the picture. though we are in CA so anything she owned beforehand doesn't count anyway towards joint.

so anyway i don't know how you should *feel* but i think that depending on the circumstances there are different reactions that are appropriate. what do you feel inside vs what people are telling you to think? and bottom line, again why would you not sign a prenup?? i feel like i'm missing something.
 
Hey there,

Mara posted pretty much exactly what I was thinking. The other thing is... who is pressing the matter more? I mean, does she want you to sign it to protect her parents or protect her. I think they are two very different things, and I personally would feel differently depending on who wanted the protection. As Mara said, the parents have every right to want their money protected, so if it is for THEIR sake, I would go ahead and sign it. But if she wants you to sign it because she wants to protect the money she made and will make, then it seems like a trust issue (in my opinion), and I would have a problem with it. If that were the case, then maybe you guys should have a serious "trust talk". Hope you work this out quickly!

Marisa
 
Well, my first reaction is, why does she want to marry at all? I could buy into the fact that this was coming from her parents, but at the end you say that she''d want her fiance to sign one "because she might make a lot of money in the future"?! What??? I have to think that she doesn''t "get" the concept of marriage at all. I can understand if she was coming into the marriage with huge assets wanting to keep some in her name. But future earnings???? All earnings during the marriage should be shared!

I think there are big red flags here and to answer further would be dependent on exactly what the pre-nup says. Do you know?
 
I am not for or against pre-nups--it all depends on the circumstance(s). Second marriage with kids from a first marriage--then YES. Two kids just out of college with two nickels between them? Then does it really make sense?

Before you get too upset, sit down with your OWN attorney and go through what is proposed. YOUR attorney can explain everything and put it all into context as to what is usual/unusual and what is not a big deal/a very big deal.

Parents can be very protective--but maybe what they want can be accomplished in a different way.


FWIW--my parents wanted one from my hubby. But--it made no sense since we were just starting out and each had net worths of within $5k of each other. So we did NOT do them. However, anything I inherit or am gifted from them is in MY name only. And therefore it's MINE only, no matter what.
 
The law in most states is that inheritances are not considered joint community property, even if acquired after the marriage. Of course you can sue anyone for anything, so this may be waived by the court. BUt pre-nups are not evil or bad. I''d sign it, put it in a drawer and never discuss it again. I can understand how it might feel strange and so anti-romantic, but marriage is in some ways a business arrangement and this is her negotiating the terms.

Can I ask why both of your parents and friends are involved in this decision? I understand her family suggesting that she ask for a pre-nup based on the inheritance she stands to recieve from them, but at the end of the day no one but the two of you should be involved in this decision. In fact, I''m not sure why you would even discuss this with your mother and friends. Part of getting married is becoming a unit and learning to work things out as a couple. Sharing these things with your family and friends, especially when you have an idea of what their responses would be only causes a rift between them and her as well as you as a couple. We all need to bounce ideas off of people, but something serious enough that it could be a "deal breaker" for you should remain between the two of you and a counselor or clergyman if you can''t come to a conclusion on your own.
 
The earnings you two make in the future should be shared, is my feeling. That said, I feel that the advice you received to consult an attorney would be a good thing as you both need wills upon your marriage.....you don''t have to have a large estate to have wills.

As for the parents maybe being worth a couple million dollars.....in today''s world, that''s not much. You could wipe that out with one uninsured illness or injury in just a short time.

Good luck to you, as you seem a very nice person.
 
Date: 10/24/2006 7:28:45 PM
Author:spntoriams
When my now fiance started dating a few years ago, she had mentioned it to me since her family is more well off than me. They are worth a couple of million dollars at least and my family is nowhere at that level. I didn't think anything of it and said, 'Sure, I have no problem. I am marrying you for you and not your money.' It was again mentioned here and there last year when we were getting more serious and even more now since we are engaged and are about to book the wedding hall, shop for for the entertainment, etc.

Here is the issue. I mentioned it briefly to my mother last month and she didn't agree but it wasn't brought up again. I talked it over with my friend who is a lawyer and he said I should feel violated or there should be a big trust issue. I had already spent about $17,000 on her engagement ring and unfortunately it was stolen two months ago. He said that should have proved to her and her family that I am not into it for the money.
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Hi spntoriams:

I think you should stick with your original feelings (highlighted) and ignore the current "issue", which seems to belong more to your mother and your lawyer friend.

Why change your POV at this point in your relationship because others are feeling that way? Also, you don't need to prove anything to your future inlaws, so why do you feel spending $17,000 on a ring should make them realize you are not after her for their money. Your lawyer friend says that spending lots of money on an ering = I'm not in it for the money.
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I don't think that most people would necessarily see it that way.

I agree that her parents money should remain just that, but I also believe that what you earn together as a couple after marriage should belong to both parties.

I hope that you can come to some sort of resolution that will make you, and your bride to be, happy.

Good luck!
 
I frankly have mixed feelings about this. This is almost, on a certain level, failure insurance. I would want to think that love is enough and divorce will never be an issue. Sadly, with 50% of marriages ending, one must also face reality. I would think if you two did divorce, there is not much from her financially you would take. I am sure you have a job or career and would not need her money. I feel sometimes it is necessary to have the pre nup when there is extreme wealth etc in a family. I know girls who married guys with family business and net worths in the tens of millions. In a divorce, the family was concerned the ex could go after the family business, which by the way also employed the husband''s siblings. The ex or soon to be ex could make a huge problem for a family run company of decades standing. However, I know a guy who really did not have much in his family, and had things in the pre nup about how much weight she could gain before he could leave her, and how much intimacy they had to have weekly. She was foreign and did not really realize what she was signing, no real access to good legal advice. This is a tough one. I can see both sides and since it bothers you I think the two of need to go somewhere and talk about it.
 
pre-nups are par for the course in some circles, and if this is normal for her or her parents, it doesn't have anything to do with how much anyone likes or trusts you.
 
I wish my in laws had pre-nup money LOL...I''m sorry you feel the way you do, but honestly, in this day and age, it''s no big deal. But marriage is forever, blah, blah, blah...this is the real world and it has little to do with trust. Reality is divorce. I''d gladly sign on the dotted line and wait for the fabulous wedding gifts to come rolling in :)
 
I don''t get it.

You say you don''t care about the money. Her parents do, so they want a prenup. Makes sense; they aren''t marrying you, and if I had money, I''d want to feel like I was protecting my daughter from golddiggers. Golddiggers would balk at a prenup; someone not motivated by money wouldn''t care. Why are you resistant to signing it?
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Date: 10/24/2006 7:28:45 PM
Author:spntoriams
Hello I am writing in this forum because it''s the closest thing I could see that might relate to my topic. I am new to prenuptial agreements. When my now fiance started dating a few years ago, she had mentioned it to me since her family is more well off than me. They are worth a couple of million dollars at least and my family is nowhere at that level. I didn''t think anything of it and said, ''Sure, I have no problem. I am marrying you for you and not your money.'' It was again mentioned here and there last year when we were getting more serious and even more now since we are engaged and are about to book the wedding hall, shop for for the entertainment, etc.

Here is the issue. I mentioned it briefly to my mother last month and she didn''t agree but it wasn''t brought up again. I talked it over with my friend who is a lawyer and he said I should feel violated or there should be a big trust issue. I had already spent about $17,000 on her engagement ring and unfortunately it was stolen two months ago. He said that should have proved to her and her family that I am not into it for the money.

Unfortunately the mom seems to insistent on this before she forks over any money for the wedding and I think this might be a deal breaker. I really am not sure if I should feel angry over this or just continue with my old stance of I love her and I don''t care no matter what. My parents do not agree and neither do my friends but I guess what really matters is what I do and how I feel about her.

Can anyone give me advice? She is in the financial industry and said if it was me or someone else, she would go and have them sign it because she can make a lot of money in the future. Should I sit down with her and say what is more important? Me or the family inheritance?
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I do have to say that this statement (by her) bothers me.
 
I obviously don''t know you or this situation really.
Since my hubby(nor his parents) wasn''t worth a few mill this wasn''t an issue for us! lol

Anyway, I think I would be okay, in this situation, with signing a prenup in this way: a preNUP means what hers before the marriage stays hers after....now if she thinks it is fair to keep her money separate during marriage, I wouldn''t go for that..


but another question, you said the ering was stolen, was it insured???does she now have a replacement?
What did you buy the heiress, out of curiosity??
 

An inheritance is not community property so a pre-nup isn''t necessary to protect it. The family could put the money in a trust if they want to protect it further. It sounds like you''re saying she wants to protect her future earnings. Is that the case? You need to find out the terms of the prenup before you can decide on it.
 
Hmmmm. I have mixed feelings on this. I can certainly understand your misgivings.

First let me say I''m not really experienced in this so it''s all an emotional response to your questions and situation. I would not be comfortable with a prenup even though I can understand why someone of wealth would request one. I would never marry someone for their money, and in fact would probably not marry out of my socio-economic level. However, if I did end up marrying someone of wealth I would not want to give them license to treat me like crap and hold finances over my head by signing a prenup that left me in the cold if there was a divorce. If you do sign a prenup, make sure your interests are protected as well -- if she cheats, is abusive, and there''s a divorce, does she get off scott free? Who is going to be dominant in this marriage -- is it a partnership or are finances going to be held over your head ("Hey, you were nothing until you married me" type of thing).

I don''t know what your vows will say, but mine went something like "I thee endow with all that I have and all that I am..." If she''s already trying to protect her earnings, she''s not really going into this with the right attitude, IMO.

Also, how involved are the parents going to be in your marriage? Are they going to be on the title to your home? Are they going to co-sign loans for you? If not, why are they so protective? She''s a grown woman, are they paying her bills? If the answer to any of this is yes, I would think LONG and HARD about this marriage. When my husband and I got married I moved into his home where his parents were co-owners. I felt that as long as we lived in that house we were beholden to them regarding our decisions within our marriage, and let me tell you, I was never so happy to get that house sold, pay them their part of the loan back, and move into a house that was OURS, not theirs. I worried that if something happened to my husband I would find myself homeless. You may think, oh, they wouldn''t do that, but when a parent outlives a child, they are not always rational and can be very angry with the spouse for outliving their child. That happened to my mother when my father died. My grandmother completely rewrote her will and took my mother out of it. Not that my mother wanted anything from her really, but she was terribly hurt and all of the errands, shopping, working in Grandmother''s yard, seeing to it that she had groceries and everyday things like clothing -- right down to undergarments and socks and shoes, and that she was not placed in a nursing home when she became elderly, all that my mother did (my father was not that thoughtful about his mother''s needs) was forgotten and suddenly it was as if my mother was no longer part of the family. And my mother will still defend her and say that Grandmother was heartbroken and elderly, and not really a vengeful person. So there you have it -- watch out for yourself in this way.

Marriage is a partnership and a leap of faith. I know it is common place for there to be prenups, but I''m somewhat concerned when it becomes a deal breaker.
 
I would not mind too much the pre-nup re: the parents money. This is not your money after all and it doesnt sound like you are after it in any way. However, the money you both earn together after marriage in my opinion should belong to you both - so I would hesitate to sign anything that would exclude you from it. It does bring up the trust issue!
 
Gail, that make a ton of sense. boils it down. Her family money is not what is at issue. Whatever they both contribute, esp if they live in a community property state, should be shared. Clear and simple, fair to both.
 
It sounds like you were fine with the prenup until your friends and family got involved, and that''s what I see as the real problem. Her family telling her what to do and your family telling you. You need to decide what the two of you really want. Personally, I wouldn''t be opposed to signing a prenup. DH & I did not, because we were young and broke when we married, but if I were to ever remarry, I would insist on it.

However, before you sign anything, you should be totally comfortable with it *and* you should consult your own attorney about it. Some of the others made good points about making sure you are protected legally as well. Good luck.
 
I think that depends on the laws of your state, no? This may sound stupid, but I remember watching a movie where a woman is faced with paying alimony to her husband who cheated on her and then left her for the other woman because CA is a ''no-fault'' divorce state and she made more money than he did...

Of course, I''m not at all suggesting that the OP would do anything of the sort, but I would hate to see a situation where one side, regardless of their gender, has to pay out to the other side when it wasn''t them who broke the relationship, JUST because they made more money than their spouse.
 
OK well one thing I really got out of it is that her parents are going to be a big part of your life. You need to decide exactly how much space you are wanting in this marriage. The more you let them in the more problems you will have in the future. The issue of money should be discussed and should have been discussed way before the issue of the prenup came up.

If she inherits money from her parents, that is hers. You have no legal bearing on that money whatso ever. Reguardless of how long you have been married, together, how much you bring home every week, ETC...

When it comes to finances, you should have your money and she should have hers for your "wants". You should also have a joint account for bills and everything else that are "needs". This could help you out with figuring out how to divide money. Marriage is about give and take and making compromises, even if you don''t want to. The money she makes during marriage is joint. It should be. If you do divorce in the future the only money that would be split is the money that was made when you both were married. Not what you had before you married. That is seperate property.

One thing that I thought was a red flag was the fact that your lawyer said that was a bad deal to get a pre-nup. He is in no position to tell you what to do with your life. Personal feelings aside he is there to help you make a sound legal decision. Not tell you what to do on a personal level. Get another lawyer. Someone who does wills, prenups and estates. They are more knowledgeable about these types of things more than a criminal lawyer. A trust issue. More often than not this really isn''t a trust issue. She probably comes from a family that it is the norm to have a prenup. You obviously never had that around you alot.

If you really love this woman than there should really be no issue at all about the prenup. If you are worried about her bailing in the future because of one situation or another than have that written in the prenup. A cheating clause, whatever. It is all up to you what you want in the prenup. I wouldn''t however, see a situation that she draws up a prenup you sign it and not read it just to make her happy and prove that you are not in it for the money. Really think about the things you want out of this marriage and write that down. Make it part of the prenup.

Prenups dont have to be nasty, they are a negotiation. Talk to her about it and tell her what your expectations.
Let us know what you decide.
 
Date: 10/24/2006 7:28:45 PM
Author:spntoriams
I talked it over with my friend who is a lawyer and he said I should feel violated or there should be a big trust issue.
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This person is not acting as your attorney. And I would guess that he is very, very young. Don''t mistake his "advice" or -rather- extremely personal views about prenups for "valid legal advice". It''s highly unprofessional to state an opinion in this manner IMO.
 
I should point out that in some states inheritance money is not separate. Oregon, for instance, puts all the couples money and assets not matter where it came from or under who''s name it is into one big pot and then divides.

I''m in the position of your fi. My parents always wanted me to have a pre-nup. They even took me to the family lawyer when I turned 16 and had me promise to never marry without one. My father worked hard for that money, and my family made a lot of sacrifices along the way. They feel very strongly that the money should stay within the family no matter what! It''s their money and it''s their decision!

However, my fi very very strongly believes a prenup is a declaration of my lack of faith in our marriage, that if we think the marriage is doomed to fail then we shouldn''t get married. Basically he flat out refuses to sign one. Given a choice between him or the money, I told my parents that they either had to find another way or give all the money to my sister. Of course I have to admit I was secure in the knowledge that if I ever really needed money my sister would give it to me without hesitation or strings. Not everyone has a sibling like that!

I''m lucky in that my fi is very special and unique. He has no interest in money or material things whatsoever. He''s also the most honorable man I''ve ever met! My parents have decided that we don''t really need a pre-nup, but we will need to talk to the family lawyer after we''re married and write wills.
A pre-nup isn''t just about divorce but about any type of ending of the marriage including death. It''s also supposed to be an opportunity to talk about your expectations in marriage. People have written all kinds of things into pre-nups including how much sex, and doing dishes!

Good Luck!
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My thought is this:

If two people enter a marriage with an HUGE imbalance of funds in their personal accounts, I can see where it is necessary.

If two people enter a marriage with relatively equal funding, they should build their life together. It shouldn''t matter if the man or the woman has more "earning potential". It is a partnership, a joint venture. You choose each other, you choose your individual paths, and you combine your efforts to create one shared life.

If one of those people has *parents* that are wealthy - too freaking bad for those parents that *they* need to get creative with their wills. It''s NONE of their business to get involved in a prenup IMO.

AND if you actually say this may be a dealbreaker, then my thought is there hasn''t been enough love brought to the bargaining table - by either of you. If it''s all going to be a failure to budge over *money* then yes, get out now.
 
I''d be wondering why you are so adament against signing one. If my husband to be had family money, I wouldn''t blink an eye at signing one. Because I''m not marrying someone for their money, or to profit from the marriage in the case of divorce. And although I believe people should enter into a marriage without the intention of divorce....

I know a man that had a mid life crisis and left his wife (of 20 years) for a drug addicted prostitute. And she is STILL supporting him.
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People can change. Feelings can change. I would really hate to be stuck in a situation where my husband started behaving like that.
 
Date: 10/25/2006 9:59:53 AM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 10/24/2006 7:28:45 PM
Author:spntoriams
I talked it over with my friend who is a lawyer and he said I should feel violated or there should be a big trust issue.
Click to expand...

This person is not acting as your attorney. And I would guess that he is very, very young. Don''t mistake his ''advice'' or -rather- extremely personal views about prenups for ''valid legal advice''. It''s highly unprofessional to state an opinion in this manner IMO.
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oh i forgot to say this but this struck me as a n odd statement for a lawyer to make. i would not use this person as your professional attorney, seek someone experienced with these types of matters who doesn''t know you personally and thinks you should feel ''violated''.
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Date: 10/25/2006 10:49:43 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
My thought is this:

If two people enter a marriage with an HUGE imbalance of funds in their personal accounts, I can see where it is necessary.

If two people enter a marriage with relatively equal funding, they should build their life together. It shouldn''t matter if the man or the woman has more ''earning potential''. It is a partnership, a joint venture. You choose each other, you choose your individual paths, and you combine your efforts to create one shared life.

If one of those people has *parents* that are wealthy - too freaking bad for those parents that *they* need to get creative with their wills. It''s NONE of their business to get involved in a prenup IMO.

AND if you actually say this may be a dealbreaker, then my thought is there hasn''t been enough love brought to the bargaining table - by either of you. If it''s all going to be a failure to budge over *money* then yes, get out now.
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This would be my main concern (Lumpkin and Alexis hit on it, too). If she''s really doing this just because her parents want it, how much say are her parents going to have in your lives after you''re married? Do they get to pick where you live, work, vacation, etc?
 
As a lawyer--though not family practice--this is what I think:

When people are bringing children and/or substantial assets to a marriage, a pre-nup is pretty close to a necessity these days. In fact, I would go so far as to say it's irresponsible not to have one, as well as a clear estate plan, before getting married.

However, between two kids who are just starting out, I happen to think pre-nups are pointless. There are no assets to protect--only future earnings, which would and should be part of the marital estate whether one is in a community property state or not.

Substantial family assets change none of this. As someone else said, if her parents have a lot of money, it is their responsibility to structure their estate plan in a way they are comfortable with. There are any number of ways in which such assets can be protected. And this is much better than relying on a pre-nup, since it is much easier for a disgruntled spouse to attack and overturn a pre-nup than a parent's estate plan.

Frankly, given what you've said (in this and your previous posts), I think you and your fiancee need to get into pre-marital counseling ASAP. You need to be in agreement about how money is going to be handled in your marriage, or you won't be married very long.


ETA: And, as several others said, your lawyer-friend is not serving you well. Talk to someone who does this stuff if you want useful advice.
 
Date: 10/25/2006 11:24:08 AM
Author: allycat0303
I''d be wondering why you are so adament against signing one. If my husband to be had family money, I wouldn''t blink an eye at signing one. Because I''m not marrying someone for their money, or to profit from the marriage in the case of divorce. And although I believe people should enter into a marriage without the intention of divorce....

I know a man that had a mid life crisis and left his wife (of 20 years) for a drug addicted prostitute. And she is STILL supporting him.
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People can change. Feelings can change. I would really hate to be stuck in a situation where my husband started behaving like that.
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and I think it makes a difference if you enter it as equals or not.... and I don''t count "family money".... the onus of that is up to the actual OWNERS of that money to make a decision about who they leave it to and whether they leave it to the couple or a trust or grand kids or whatnot.
 
My DH mentioned it to me when we got engaged. I said I wasn''t sure. He never mentioned it again. He really didn''t have all THAT much and I did have assets too. If he pushed it, I probably would have signed it because I wasn''t in it for the money and I did understand his point of view.

He has a lot more now and he has the potential for big increases in income. If we got a divorce, I wouldn''t take him to the cleaners. But we have children and I would make sure they were taken care of but I know he would too.

I am not sure that it is legal for her to make you sign something precluding you from sharing any assets (i.e. her income) DURING the marriage. Additionally, I don''t think that is fair. But for me, if I didn''t have any children, I probably wouldn''t want much if my DH and I divorced. If we didn''t have any children, I would still be working, earning my own way.

I think that lawyer friend of yours should mind his own business. That''s the exact opposite of what I would expect a lawyer to say though.
 
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