President Bush gets Shoes thrown at him!

[HollyS]

Date: 12/28/2008 1:00:21 PM
Author: Rank Amateur

Don''t let the more vocal PS conservatives scare you away. There are quite a few of us ''dirty liberals'' who frequent this board as well, though things have settled a bit since the election. Please stick around- we welcome your opinion(s).

This board is absolutely teeming with liberals.

Well, if you read between the lines, it actually BELONGS to them. At least they think so.

It would never occur to me to get on here and criticize someone else''s country. But it''s perfectly acceptable, it seems, to both non-Americans and our more liberal friends here, to get ugly about the U.S. And then, when someone has the temerity to object, they are told they are the ones being rude. Uh huh.

Actually, the ATW thread has become nothing more than a mutual admiration society of like-minded, self-annointed intellectuals rehashing some very tired ideas. I''m sure he''ll be very happy here, among his peers. It''s only you and I, and a handfull of others, who don''t get the warm welcome reserved for fellow sheep.

I really don''t have any problem not belonging to ''the club''. I never was a joiner.

 

[MoonWater]

wash
rinse
repeat

*yawn*

 

[klewis]

Date: 12/28/2008 4:23:31 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 12/28/2008 1:00:21 PM

Author: Rank Amateur

Don''t let the more vocal PS conservatives scare you away. There are quite a few of us ''dirty liberals'' who frequent this board as well, though things have settled a bit since the election. Please stick around- we welcome your opinion(s).

This board is absolutely teeming with liberals.

Well, if you read between the lines, it actually BELONGS to them. At least they think so.


It would never occur to me to get on here and criticize someone else''s country. But it''s perfectly acceptable, it seems, to both non-Americans and our more liberal friends here, to get ugly about the U.S. And then, when someone has the temerity to object, they are told they are the ones being rude. Uh huh.


Actually, the ATW thread has become nothing more than a mutual admiration society of like-minded, self-annointed intellectuals rehashing some very tired ideas. I''m sure he''ll be very happy here, among his peers. It''s only you and I, and a handfull of others, who don''t get the warm welcome reserved for fellow sheep.


I really don''t have any problem not belonging to ''the club''. I never was a joiner.

HollyS- Your choice of words is speaks volumes. I''m not a ''Non-American'', I''m a New Zealander and instead of carping on about how appalling it is that someone dare criticize America, ( do I sense a high road here?) why don''t you contribute something of substance to this thread? Incidentally, what news channel do you watch?

 

[HollyS]

Just what difference does choice of news outlets make? Are you not smart enough to think for yourself . . . is that why you think I've been 'informed' by my news choices?

My dear young man, I am probably old enough to be your mother; and lived a great deal longer, through many more Presidential administrations than you've even been on the face of the earth. My beliefs, values, and political judgements are not forged by what any news outlet wants me to believe.

We would all be better off if we didn't have instant access to 'news'. And yes, I did use the term loosely. These aren't the days of Walter Cronkite; these are the days of Katie, Keith, and Chris. None of whom are, in actual fact, journalists. They just play them on TV.

And, since I was speaking of all people who are citizens of countries other than the U.S., not just referencing you, I don't believe I was being insulting when I chose the words 'non-American'. I think that accurately describes those from other countries, especially if I cannot recite ALL the countries represented by PS members.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 12/28/2008 5:30:01 PM
Author: MoonWater

wash
rinse
repeat

*yawn*

Well, you oughta know.

Redundancy, thy name is MoonWater.

(Just in case you thought you were NOT being the same ol'' Moon.)

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 12/28/2008 7:37:05 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 12/28/2008 5:30:01 PM
Author: MoonWater

wash
rinse
repeat

*yawn*

Well, you oughta know.

Redundancy, thy name is MoonWater.

(Just in case you thought you were NOT being the same ol'' Moon.)

that''s a bit snarky: personal attacks really are uncalled for and continue to be unbecoming.

movie zombie

 

[MoonWater]

You know that phrase, "Act your age, not your shoe size."

The following is still amusing:

Lack of self reflection
Hypocrisy
Whining (seriously, if you're going to keep complaining and threatening to leave, by all means do it, unless of course you have nothing better to do)
Attack! Apology. Attack! Apology. Attack!

This is definitely how some folks get their kicks. However, 20 years from now, when I'm around that age, you won't catch me acting like Dr. Jackal and Ms. Hyde on a message board.

Toodles.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 12/28/2008 9:07:47 PM
Author: MoonWater
You know that phrase, 'Act your age, not your shoe size.'

The following is still amusing:

Lack of self reflection
Hypocrisy
Whining (seriously, if you're going to keep complaining and threatening to leave, by all means do it, unless of course you have nothing better to do)
Attack! Apology. Attack! Apology. Attack!

This is definitely how some folks get their kicks. However, 20 years from now, when I'm around that age, you won't catch me acting like Dr. Jackal and Ms. Hyde on a message board.

Toodles.

amen to that - I sometimes steer over to ATW hoping for some level-headed discussion of the issues of the day. Then I see threads like this degenerate into insult throwing and sarcasm, thanks to the same constant offenders, and so I go back to SMTR..

And HollyS, fwiw, you do seem alot younger than you apparently are. Infact I was sure until now that you were in your early 20's. And no, thats not a personal attack - its an observation on how you come across in your posts.

 

[iheartscience]

Holly, why do you have such a problem with a "non-American" criticizing America? You don''t seem to have a problem criticizing any other country. Or religion, for that matter.

The founders of this country fought for us to be able to criticize our own country, and I don''t see why someone from another country can''t do the same. And why you think klewis is uninformed is beyond me. Everything he said is true.

Being a patriot isn''t about swallowing every pile of crap our leaders put out there-it''s just the opposite.

 

[klewis]

Date: 12/28/2008 7:25:44 PM
Author: HollyS
Just what difference does choice of news outlets make? Are you not smart enough to think for yourself . . . is that why you think I''ve been ''informed'' by my news choices?


My dear young man, I am probably old enough to be your mother; and lived a great deal longer, through many more Presidential administrations than you''ve even been on the face of the earth. My beliefs, values, and political judgements are not forged by what any news outlet wants me to believe.


We would all be better off if we didn''t have instant access to ''news''. And yes, I did use the term loosely. These aren''t the days of Walter Cronkite; these are the days of Katie, Keith, and Chris. None of whom are, in actual fact, journalists. They just play them on TV.


And, since I was speaking of all people who are citizens of countries other than the U.S., not just referencing you, I don''t believe I was being insulting when I chose the words ''non-American''. I think that accurately describes those from other countries, especially if I cannot recite ALL the countries represented by PS members.

I agree, you have to think for yourself, but you have to gather the information, compare facts, think about the sources. ''Facts'' often differ depending on who''s telling the story - so yes HollyS, it can make a difference where you get your news from. Your thinking process, the way you put it, it sounds like the facts just pop into your head direct from the source. Others, like me, rely on more usual means.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/28/2008 10:19:27 PM
Author: klewis

Date: 12/28/2008 7:25:44 PM
Author: HollyS
Just what difference does choice of news outlets make? Are you not smart enough to think for yourself . . . is that why you think I''ve been ''informed'' by my news choices?


My dear young man, I am probably old enough to be your mother; and lived a great deal longer, through many more Presidential administrations than you''ve even been on the face of the earth. My beliefs, values, and political judgements are not forged by what any news outlet wants me to believe.


We would all be better off if we didn''t have instant access to ''news''. And yes, I did use the term loosely. These aren''t the days of Walter Cronkite; these are the days of Katie, Keith, and Chris. None of whom are, in actual fact, journalists. They just play them on TV.


And, since I was speaking of all people who are citizens of countries other than the U.S., not just referencing you, I don''t believe I was being insulting when I chose the words ''non-American''. I think that accurately describes those from other countries, especially if I cannot recite ALL the countries represented by PS members.

I agree, you have to think for yourself, but you have to gather the information, compare facts, think about the sources. ''Facts'' often differ depending on who''s telling the story - so yes HollyS, it can make a difference where you get your news from. Your thinking process, the way you put it, it sounds like the facts just pop into your head direct from the source. Others, like me, rely on more usual means.

Lessee....klewis posts one post critical of America in general, gets invited to bugger off, gets PERSONALLY insulted, is accused of guile, and has his supposedly callow youth highlighted. Then anyone who doesn''t agree is lumped together as "sheep", which is particularly amusing and ironic coming from a person who recently stated, "it is not up to me "Monday morning quarterback'' our past presidents, Congress, or military for what they chose to do, and what they felt was right to do. I''m farily certain that most, if not everyone, (Custer notwithstanding), had the best interests of America and its citizens at heart. And no, that doesn''t mean they were always right. Just that they were not, in their hearts, evil." Criticizing power....NOT criticizing power. Well, I know which one sounds more "sheeplike" to me.

Honestly, I think this thread is a microcosm of America''s discomfort with being a superpower - the "leader of the free world" if you will. On the one hand we love the perks that come along with it, but then we can''t stand the inevitable criticisms that come with being that power. America was founded on the premise that (sorry - I can''t resist) "supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses", and that the individual DOES matter and should be heard. We have, as a nation, listened to the voices of mankind, even those voices that don''t live here. It has been our strength and part of why we were such leaders. That is why so many people in the US have been so uncomfortable with the Bush policies that cavalierly dismiss any voices that dissent. (I can''t help but remember Cheney, when asked in an interview how he would respond to the many Americans opposed to the Iraq war, and he sneeringly replied, "I''d say so what...".)

The fact that any criticism evokes such outsized responses just highlights the discomfort. The discomfort comes from the friction between the American morality of fairplay, love thy neighbor if you will, extending the helping hand, and openess, versus the very pragmatic need for strong unilateral measures to ensure security. The problem comes when one unbalances the other, that you get the polarization. And of course, we are nationally hardwired to see ourselves always in a good light. That is just human, actually. And not only have we truly believed that we that we have a moral mandate, but we''ve tried to make ourselves an example, and HAVE spent our blood and treasure in pursuit of that end. But in the current situation the pragmatists have been ascendant to the point that our ideals have fallen to expedience. Torture, secret prisons, rendition, spying on Americans , the tossing of habeas corpus, the unbalancing of the power balance of the branches, all of these things fly in the face of what is means to be American. It would have been a trifle different if the situation leading to this state of affairs was not one being trotted out as truly endless - this ''war on terror''. We''ve been known to bend our ideals before, but always with the knowledge that it happened for extraordinary reasons and that it wouldn''t be permanent. The changes we''ve been asked to accept have 1) been kept secret from us as long as possible, and 2) when outed, have been sold as necessary from here to eternity. And that is NOT acceptable.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 12/28/2008 9:07:47 PM
Author: MoonWater
You know that phrase, ''Act your age, not your shoe size.''

The following is still amusing:

Lack of self reflection
Hypocrisy
Whining (seriously, if you''re going to keep complaining and threatening to leave, by all means do it, unless of course you have nothing better to do)
Attack! Apology. Attack! Apology. Attack!

This is definitely how some folks get their kicks. However, 20 years from now, when I''m around that age, you won''t catch me acting like Dr. Jackal and Ms. Hyde on a message board.

Toodles.

Yep. Redundancy. Or do you ever read your previous posts?

I''ll see your "Toodles", and raise you a "Ta Ta".

 

[HollyS]

Date: 12/28/2008 10:16:05 PM
Author: thing2of2
Holly, why do you have such a problem with a ''non-American'' criticizing America? You don''t seem to have a problem criticizing any other country. Or religion, for that matter.

The founders of this country fought for us to be able to criticize our own country, and I don''t see why someone from another country can''t do the same. And why you think klewis is uninformed is beyond me. Everything he said is true.

Being a patriot isn''t about swallowing every pile of crap our leaders put out there-it''s just the opposite.

What country did I criticize? Which one?

As for religion, I ONCE said I had a problem agreeing that Obama was a Christian, given his upbringing/education in a religion that seems to be the basis for many of the world''s problems. ONCE. And everyone has taken it out of context, time and again. This argument is pretty old now, isn''t it?

 

[miraclesrule]

There have been many people who have been able to have strong opinions on this board that don''t spew it out in a venomous attack. This is a board where people can learn from those who have a more broad based education and knowledge of the events. Many of us are the fan of fact based research rather than emotionality and righteousness.

We have been able to have several civil and interesting discussions regarding the corrupt political culture and it has been an engaging conversaton until we get the sarcastic and hateful contensciousness that seem to be the hallmark of certain posters. There are some of us that will always be the one to say "Hey, the Emperor isn''t wearing any clothes", and then there will always be those who have been conditioned to be polite and never question what the facts are and will comment with the others they have joined with and comment on the Emperor''s very beautiful blue robe.

It''s a fascinating dynamic of human nature. The miracle occurs when the mind cracks open just long enough to realize that you get back the respect you give. People can respectfully disagree about strategy even though are needs are seldom different. This isn''t just an American issue, it is a human issue, and all humans should be concerned about the effects their government are having on the world.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/29/2008 10:26:14 PM
Author: miraclesrule
There have been many people who have been able to have strong opinions on this board that don''t spew it out in a venomous attack. This is a board where people can learn from those who have a more broad based education and knowledge of the events. Many of us are the fan of fact based research rather than emotionality and righteousness.

We have been able to have several civil and interesting discussions regarding the corrupt political culture and it has been an engaging conversaton until we get the sarcastic and hateful contensciousness that seem to be the hallmark of certain posters. There are some of us that will always be the one to say ''Hey, the Emperor isn''t wearing any clothes'', and then there will always be those who have been conditioned to be polite and never question what the facts are and will comment with the others they have joined with and comment on the Emperor''s very beautiful blue robe.

It''s a fascinating dynamic of human nature. The miracle occurs when the mind cracks open just long enough to realize that you get back the respect you give. People can respectfully disagree about strategy even though are needs are seldom different. This isn''t just an American issue, it is a human issue, and all humans should be concerned about the effects their government are having on the world.

The urge to comment about venom is strong, but since the Mr. Clean has already been applied today, I''ll resist, and bring us back to the "sheep" comment. This is sort of a thread-jack, but sorta not, since it ties in and we''ve mentioned Milgram before in other posts. All I can say, is question authority is my personal mantra. (I even used to sport the bumper sticker saying that) Every single day. Guard your MIND....
I saw the movie "The Tenth Level" in when I was about 17, and it''s stuck with me my whole life....(I think they broadcast it ONCE by accident, then realized how incredibly loaded it was, and I NEVER have seen it aired again....EVER). Scary scary stuff.

Four Decades After Milgram, We’re Still Willing to Inflict Pain

 

[Ellen]

Date: 12/29/2008 10:26:14 PM
Author: miraclesrule
There have been many people who have been able to have strong opinions on this board that don't spew it out in a venomous attack. This is a board where people can learn from those who have a more broad based education and knowledge of the events. Many of us are the fan of fact based research rather than emotionality and righteousness.

We have been able to have several civil and interesting discussions regarding the corrupt political culture and it has been an engaging conversaton until we get the sarcastic and hateful contensciousness that seem to be the hallmark of certain posters. There are some of us that will always be the one to say 'Hey, the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes', and then there will always be those who have been conditioned to be polite and never question what the facts are and will comment with the others they have joined with and comment on the Emperor's very beautiful blue robe.

It's a fascinating dynamic of human nature. The miracle occurs when the mind cracks open just long enough to realize that you get back the respect you give. People can respectfully disagree about strategy even though are needs are seldom different. This isn't just an American issue, it is a human issue, and all humans should be concerned about the effects their government are having on the world.

Yes.

I would post in here more often, if some people could afford me the same respect (and others who deserve it) that I have tried to give everyone else. I can't get anywhere with venomous comments and insults. What's the point?



Karen, great article.

 

[MoonWater]

Indeed, great article Karen. I passed it on to the Brain. The last line is especially important.

 

[stbfyffe]

Yummy....humble pie anyone?

 

[miraclesrule]

I read that article last week and it made me sick to my stomach.

I really wanted to refuse to believe it. I just couldn't believe that the study yielded those same results.
I am not convinced that the study would yield the same results in every country. I really do believe that power corrupts and when we get complacent, ignorant, comfortable with our greedy, easy, lifestyle that somethings happens to us. It's like a trigger. I know that I have met people in communities....villages even, that would never, ever commit acts of violence.

I am definately the "question authority" kind of gal. In fact, I have been told I am a "challenge authority" kind of gal. Considering the other options they had to "label" me, I was definately happy that I was what I was.

You can fear authority.
You can seduce authority (kiss arse).
You can ignore authority.
or you can challenge authority.

Questioning authority is apparently considered "challenging". How dare you question authority, right? That must be a "challenge". And apparently there is no other categories. I was told I was a combination of the ignore/challenge. I couldn't argue. :::::shrugs::::::

My response was "Well, are there corresponding types of leadership so one knows how to best survive?" I don't think I used the word survive, but I think I would have it the word had come to me. Anyway, it's just sad that we were on the verge of a dictatorship that threatened to close our society and most Americans didn't even know it. But that is usually how it goes down, so I am not surprised.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/30/2008 11:28:34 PM
Author: miraclesrule
I read that article last week and it made me sick to my stomach.

I really wanted to refuse to believe it. I just couldn''t believe that the study yielded those same results.
I am not convinced that the study would yield the same results in every country. I really do believe that power corrupts and when we get complacent, ignorant, comfortable with our greedy, easy, lifestyle that somethings happens to us. It''s like a trigger. I know that I have met people in communities....villages even, that would never, ever commit acts of violence.

I am definately the ''question authority'' kind of gal. In fact, I have been told I am a ''challenge authority'' kind of gal. Considering the other options they had to ''label'' me, I was definately happy that I was what I was.

You can fear authority.
You can seduce authority (kiss arse).
You can ignore authority.
or you can challenge authority.

Questioning authority is apparently considered ''challenging''. How dare you question authority, right? That must be a ''challenge''. And apparently there is no other categories. I was told I was a combination of the ignore/challenge. I couldn''t argue. :::::shrugs::::::

My response was ''Well, are there corresponding types of leadership so one knows how to best survive?'' I don''t think I used the word survive, but I think I would have it the word had come to me. Anyway, it''s just sad that we were on the verge of a dictatorship that threatened to close our society and most Americans didn''t even know it. But that is usually how it goes down, so I am not surprised.

Oh, I do believe you are wrong here! Would that it were so simple! NO ONE wants to believe that THEY would do that. The statistics show us otherwise. There''s the scary thing: you don''t KNOW that you wouldn''t. It''s pleasant to think that you wouldn''t be part of the herd, but are you really so utterly certain that you would not? I''m not. And I really do think you''re underestimating the isidiousness of the kinds of authority there are, and overestimating perhaps, the "evil" of authority. Can you imagine a society that ONLY resisted authority all the time? Different kinds of authority have been identified, and the view of authority as a punitive type trying to coerce you by way of impending punishment is hardly the only one. That type of authority is almost a caricature, really. What if that authority is a world-renowned expert in a field? Or your personal friend, someone with whom you identify, someone you respect? What if you''re in the military and the authority is your CO...? And you''re ordered to take out a "target" that you KNOW will probably kill or maim civilians? Is it so easy then, to challenge "authority"? And more importantly, does the resistance result in any action?

I even talked to one person one time about these studies, who bristled and said, "Well, I would never do such a thing, I have Christian morals!" So did most of the participants; so did most of the people who carried out the Nazi goals. Milgram also said, "The conflict between conscience and authority is not wholly a philosophical or moral issue. Many of the subjects felt, at the philosophical level of values, that they ought not to go on, but they were unable to translate this conviction into action...."

Those obedience studies were conducted more than once at the time, and on women even. (No significant difference in obedience rates, btw. So much for the belief that women are more "moral" than men.) The participants were carefully chosen for "normalcy". Milgram himself, when interviewed in 1979, answered the question of "could that happen here?", replied, "I would say, on the basis of having observed a thousand people in the experiments and having my own intuition shaped and informed by these experiments, that if a system of death camps were set up in the United States of the sort we had seen in Nazi Germany, one would be able to find sufficient personnel for those camps in any medium-sized American town." I don''t believe this is a societal thing, but a hard-wire type thing. But then I have become more and more resistant to what I''ve read Michael Schirmer call "the beautiful people myth", the persistent belief that somewhere out there, maybe in the misty past, there existed/exists a group of people who lived in harmony with nature, and /or is immune from the the supposedly corrupting influence of modern society. It''s nice to think so, but the evidence refutes it time after time...

I suggest "Obedience to Authority - Current Perspectives on The Milgram Paradigm", and (wish I knew where this was...probably (wait for it....) packed away in THE ATTIC) Michael Schirmer''s book "The Science of Good And Evil", another excellent read.

 

[iheartscience]

Big ditto to Karen. The original Milgram experiments were replicated in many other countries, and all of the other countries had about the same, if not higher, levels of obedience as the U.S. In the Milgram experiments in the U.S., everyone shocked the research confederate up to 150 volts, and 65% shocked the confederate until the very end.

And if you want to hear something that will really make you sick, another researcher performed the same type of experiment using ACTUAL SHOCKS on...PUPPIES. Men and women almost all followed through to the very end and shocked the puppies at the highest voltage. And the puppies were squealing and crying and running around, and they all still did it.

Attached is a photo of the control panel the participants used to shock the confederates in the Milgram experiments. You can''t see the labels, but under the switches were different labels at different voltages. The last one says "XXX"...and that''s the level that 65% of the participants in the study went to-"XXX."

 

[iheartscience]

I found an illustration of what the control panel labels were. Hopefully it will show up large enough.