Q's regarding modern brilliant and Old European Cut

[bethn8]

Hi everyone,

I am diamond hunting for a round cut for my e-ring. Here are the specs I am considering:

Carat: 1.5+
Color: As low as I
Clarity: As low as SI1
Cut: Excellent-Very Good

I'd like to stay under $8000 for the diamond.

Question 1.
Will this still be a nice diamond even though I am compromising on color and clarity a bit? It will be in a 14K rose gold setting with a shared prong diamond band. For the wedding band I'd like a white gold shared prong diamond band. Would you recommend adjusting any of these specs? The carat size is important to me.

Question 2.
Would I be likely to find an Old European Cut diamond with these specs? Would I want to make sure an OEC meets these specs or do they need to be judged based on different criteria? Do you still use the GIA cut rating scale on OECs? Most of the ones I've come across are low color and aren't GIA certified. Why are OECs low color? Is the color less noticeable? The jewelers I've visited in Boston all tell me they sell OECs at a lower price than modern brilliant cuts, but they can't show me one that is certified. I like the way they look but I'm not sure if I should judge them differently than modern brilliant, and if so, how do I know what good specs are for one? I also don't understand why all the jewelers in Boston are telling me they sell OECs for less than modern brilliant. When asked they say it is because OECs are not in as high of demand. They offer to get them certified at my expense, but I'm not even sure if I'd be comparing apples to apples (OEC v modern brilliant).

Thank you!

 

[ariel144]

You certainly have a million questions that can only be answered by researching threads on OEC's and round brilliants on PriceScope.

Since you have seen the OEC's in person and they sell them less than MRB's in Boston then find an old cut that you love when you see it in person and buy it! The best way to judge old cuts is with the eyes and NOT the numbers. Once you find the stone you love you can have the vendor send it to GIA for grading to insure you are paying the right price for the specs of the stone.

Or you can go to the "Antique and Vintage" section in PS and find the thread that lists all the vendors that sell old cuts and go through one of the trusted vendors that specialize in antique stones to find you one that is an excellent performer.

Good Old Gold and Victor Canera cut their own OEC's for light performance which is rare to find in old stones...that special antique that is a great performer.

Here is a video comparing the different faceting on round diamonds and when you pick the facet pattern you love then you can limit your search and begin to focus on the cut you love.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiM3COzjFM

Lucky you in Boston where there must be a lot of OEC's for you to find that special one in your budget.

Also go to "Show Me the Bling" section and do a search for "show me your OEC's" etc to see what PSr's are buying. Many long time PSr's love the lower colors K,L M...your focus should be on the CUT and not the color. A J color is still in the colorless range and will get you a larger stone for your budget.

1.5c I SI will probably run you more than $8k unless you can find one locally. Please note a well cut J/K /L can look brighter/whiter than a not so well cut diamond that is a G, H, or I. Also if you can find one with Blue Flourescence it can make a lower color face up whiter.

Also don't focus on carat size as that is only the weight of the stone you want to focus on the measurement in MM....7mm, 7.5mm 8mm etc. Some OEC's are cut deep and face up smaller than one where the depth is more shallow. A 65% depth might be 7mm and a 60% depth 7.5mm and both weigh the same 1.5c.

Personally I never cared for round diamonds until I saw the OEC's...the antique and the custom cut new ones...now they are one of my favorite cuts...those chunky facets and flower patterns under the table are lovely.

If you love a stone with your eyes...it performs great then you don't really need a certification. You can take it to a local GIA appraiser and they can confirm the color and clarity, and weight and measurements of the stone.

Hope this helps.

 

[arkieb1]

You will probably have to drop down in a size a little or go with a slightly lowered coloured OEC to get into that price range, some decent options;

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/1-ct-to-2-00/1-28ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-i-vs1#.WIvjPSgVq5Q

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/rings/vintage-antique/1-13ct-old-european-cut-diamond-solitaire-gia-h-si1-by-vatche#.WIvnxygVq5Q

Join Grace's newsletter & ask for the member discount;

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/1-ct-to-2-00/1-36ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-i-vs1#.WIvjlygVq5Q

Or this if you drop down in colour;

https://loupetroop.com/listings/rings-natural-diamond-center/gia-certified-1-dot-48ct-round-diamond-in-platinum

Or this is a beautiful stone;

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/rings/vintage-antique/1-41ct-vintage-old-european-cut-diamond-solitaire-gia-k-vs1#.WIvoBSgVq5Q

 

[arkieb1]

Or this one for someone who wants a big stone on a budget;

http://www.loveaffairdiamonds.com/1-91ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-k-si2/

Or if you want a beautiful cut;

http://www.loveaffairdiamonds.com/1-26ct-old-european-cut-diamond-ags-k-vs1/


You have to figure out what you are willing to sacrifice in order to get as close to what you want.

 

[AdaBeta27]

Most of the genuine OECs are going to be I or probably J and lower, because for a long time the antique cuts were so out of fashion that the colorless and near-colorless ones were recut into modern RBs because they mere much more valuable that way. That's one major reason. The other might be that a lot of OEC and OMC diamonds were "cape" color range, because the region(s) that diamonds were being mined from in that time produced "cape" color rough, i.e., warmer diamonds.

There are some colorless / near colorless genuine OECs out there. My mother owns one, and it's gorgeous. You'd probably have work with a specialist like Singlestone or a high-end estate dealer to find one, though. You can get a reproduction that is tweaked for superb performance from Good Old Gold or Victor Canera, I believe.

(eta: Color is *not* less noticible. If anything, the tall crown and the overall greater depth of the diamond make tint *more* noticeable. As someone pointed out, strong blue fluor helps whiten a stone. Mine is an I VS1 with strong blue. It faces up very white. I can see an ivory tint from the side. It doesn't bother me. Not a great pic, because it was taken with a 2mp camera.)

Most OECs are not graded by GIA or AGS because many have wonky in craftsmanship and also do not meet today's performance standards and the labs are harsh on them. Rather than let GIA downgrade the cut to fair or good, many dealers just won't send the stones for grading. Most that were graded a few years ago were sent to EGL because EGL gave then favorable cut grades and also was known to overinflate the color and the clarity by 2 grades compared to GIA. Whatever grades EGL gave old diamonds sounded good but was not apples to apples comparison to GIA, and lawsuits resulted. I'm not sure what the status of EGL is now, but it was a big dustup and that's probably why a lot of owners / dealers stopped sending their old stones to EGL and consequently many average old stones are not sold with a lab report.

 

[bethn8]

Thank you very much for your replies everyone. I apologize for posting a message with so many questions. I had spent a few hours searching for answers and had become pretty frustrated. You all helped a lot.

AdaBeta27- Thanks for the pictures! Your diamond is beautiful and I see what you mean about it looking very white (to my untrained eye anyway!). Do you happen to know if an I VS1 OEC like yours is worth more or less than an equivalent modern round brilliant? It sounds like they are difficult to compare because the craftsmanship is considered lower on the OECs.

I'm going to look at more OECs in person next week to decide if I want to go that route. I will keep in mind that the color will be warmer but perhaps I can find one with blue fluorescence. I still cannot make complete sense of the price discrepancy between the OEC online jewelers and the jewelers I've visited in Boston. All I can think is the Boston jewelers know the diamond they are selling would rate low on a GIA report and perhaps they account for that with price? It sounds like most OECs available today would not rate very well on the HCA scale or the color scale but they have their own unique beauty.

Thanks again!

 

[jaaron]

Hi Beth,

I think the question of 'worth more' is hard to answer. Out of curiosity, I did a quick look around to see if I could find a comparison for you.

I have a 2.26 M VS2 OEC (AGS graded, purchased from Love Affair Diamonds)
Brian Gavin Diamonds has a 2.25 M VS2 AGS Ideal currently on the site, but on hold, for almost exactly what I paid for my OEC.

I've never seen one of the Brian Gavin Cape diamonds IRL, so don't know if I'd like them or not. I do know, that I love OECs in lower colours. Mine is incredibly white in most light and slightly creamy in some. It's set in a Victor Canera Emilya with G single cuts in the halo. While I can sometimes see a colour difference in pictures, I almost never do in real life. I just see big, chunky flashes and colours. Before it was set, I could see a bit of colour from the side, but it's not an angle I see it from now that it's set.

Honestly, I think in the end it comes down to whether you love old cuts or not.

I hope you find something you love!

 

[missy]

I have a GIA OEC and it is no less expensive than an MRB with a similar GIA grading. The difference is with OECs you must see them with your own eyes in person because they look different than MRBs and you cannot tell by the numbers if one will be beautiful (to you) or not. The faceting can be incredible with these chunky old cuts and the color play coming from them just stunning.

As for blue fluorescence that will only come into play a very small amount of the time and most of the time it won't change your perception of the color. Only when your diamond is exposed to UV light so keep that in mind. I think blue fluorescence can be cool but it won't make a yellow tinted stone appear white.

Enjoy the hunt and seeing these old cuts in person. Good luck!

 

[Lookinagain]

I purchased an GIA certified OEC from E.B. Horn in downtown Boston a few years ago. They called a few stones in for me and I was able to view them and purchase the one I liked. At the time, I paid just about what a MRB would have cost at the time. It is a K, VS1, 2.13 ct stone and I'm very happy with it. I'm guessing you could ask the jewelers you are speaking to if they would call in some stones and specify that you want GIA certed stones only.