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Queen of Burma Ruby

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Mandalay

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 14, 2005
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The King Tibok Ruby with 37 carats owned by Harry Winston was auctioned in mid seventies and bought by Van Cleef and Arpel and was subsequently recut. No one knows the final recut weight. And, from the picture this Tibok Ruby has inclusions and internal cracks.

Whereas the Queen of Burma, as described in the Cartier book, was sold to the Maharaja of xxxx in 1937. (Due to agreement and Indian Government''s tax policy, I have to blank out the Maharaja''s name).

I have the opportunity to view this stone back in 1989 after Cartier has testified in their letter confirming their sales to the Maharaja and that this is the real genuine "Queen Of Burma" mined by the then British in Mogok, Burma.

I viewed it at a Bank vault in Hong Kong. This 23.67 carats is indeed a superb fine and excellently clean Ruby of Pinkish Red color (as there were then no digital cameras, I could not snap shot a picture then).

Please see attached letter from Cartier and also Gubelin''s lab report 10 years later after the decendents of the Maharaja that wanted too high a price then. There''s only one inconspicuous tiny feather/liquid fingerprint near the girdle.

This same stone is still available today for sale. Could any guess or opnion as to how much it is worth ???
 
OMG....your picture didn''t come up!!!
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PLEASE try again!! I''m just dying to see this wonder..

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Attached Cartier Letter.

CartierQueen23.66.jpg
 
Re-attached clearer picture

Cartier23.66.jpg
 
Gubelin Lab Report 10 years later.

Gubelin Queen23.66.jpg
 
Gubelin Comments 2nd page.

GubelinLab23.66.jpg
 
Mandalay:

Here''s something I found in the back of an old Sotheby''s catalog...dated 2000..

Maybe this will be of some use...

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Earlier this year, Christie sold at auction a magnificient 8.01 carat oval-cut Burmese ruby for $2,200,000 ($274,656 per carat). You can read the details at the link below from The Gemstone Forcaster:

http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfsummer05.html#1

I was fortunate enough to see this ruby when it was on preview roadshow in San Francisco. I was invited to go along with a friend who got an invitation to the preview. The ruby was pure red, with very high clarity and brilliance. It was magnificent.

Based on the auction price of this 8.01 carat Burmese ruby, I would guess a Burmese ruby of similar quality at over 20 carat would be worth over $10,000. The report of the Queen of Burma ruby described the color as purple red, so it''s probably not what is considered the top color for Burmese ruby. Without seeing a picture, it''s hard to guess what it''s worth.

Art Nouveau
 
Things one gets to hear about on the Net these blessed days...
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Is there allot more of such esoteric stuff in obscure bank vaults, Mandalay?
 
In the previous message, I left out three zeros. I meant to say "I would guess a Burmese ruby of similar quality at over 20 carat would be worth over $10,000,000"
 
Date: 10/3/2005 1:47:26 AM
Author: Art Nouveau
In the previous message, I left out three zeros. I meant to say ''I would guess a Burmese ruby of similar quality at over 20 carat would be worth over $10,000,000''
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Oh well... how does the ''Google ruby'' sound to you ? Pretty scarry stuff. I have not found it worth while to give a second thought to such out of this world prices and goods until... Mandalay came up on this forum! Obviously someone must be doing this for a living somewhere. The question of what would anyone pay for the most outrageous piece of jewelry to came out in the open in a few decades (?) is rather intriguing, but totally over my head
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What next!? Oh well... As is it took me a while to dare click on the title of this thread!
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I thought P/R would make that stone a sapphire? Where is the line between purple sapphire and ruby? A question abuot color while I am thinking about it. What would be considered top color for purple sapphire? Logic would suggest that the closer to ruby the color the more valuable. Is my thinking flawed here? Thanks Doug
 
Hi Colormyworld,

All Pigeon Blood ruby, Gubelin Lab described it as purple-red. Do not ask me why ? I am puzzled too. Please direct the questions to Gubelin Lab in their website. I am interested to know too.

Man.
 
Date: 10/3/2005 5:13:27 AM
Author: colormyworld
I thought P/R would make that stone a sapphire? Where is the line between purple sapphire and ruby?
Click to expand...


Hm... not sure why, but posting this feels a bit silly.

For something like that... nowhere

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Whatever classification rules make sense for comparing (lesser) things. Where on Earth would anyone find a second piece like that to look at abstract theoretical divides and criticize?


This sort of reminds me another case: if I am not mistaking, the color grade of the Hope diamond got ''updated'' upwards at least once. It really was the grading system that was being judged there against criteria of a higher order, not the rock. Same here, as much as I can possibly imagine. Perhaps this is not the most famous corundum in the world, but then, the grading system itself is not that widely accepted either - on that piece of paper the color grades remind me of one''s description on a passport that is just good enough to recognize a face in the crowd not judgments of value (hopefully). If those grades are ever considered of any consequence, than I understand that the grading standards themselves come from such cases, not the other way around.


Don''t take me wrong - I surely like the grades and numbers game for its own sake. This is something else. I sure wish I knew better what to write on Mandalay''s threads!

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My reason for asking this question is I have such a ruby, sapphire. It has been graded twice. The first time it was graded stpr The second time it graded PR both times it was classed as sapphire. In incacasdent it looks red but in the sun around here it looks purple red. I posted a picture of it in another theard. Where it looks purple. I am trying to get a feel where the line is.
 
Thank you MJO for your reply. I never would have thought Burma rubies were graded in such a way. I don''t think my stone is a Burma. That still is not quite the info I was looking for. I guess I will just stick with spinels.
 
Hello Colormyworld,

Rubies are classified as Rubies differently in The US and in Asia. In the US we think of rubes as deep red. In Asia a darker red ruby is a male ruby and the light colored ones (pinkish sapphires in the US) are female rubies. I think the AGL color scan has a definitive cutoff in hue on the red scale to call it a ruby or sapphire in the US.
 
Date: 10/3/2005 10:33:31 PM
Author: MJO

I think the AGL color scan has a definitive cutoff in hue on the red scale to call it a ruby or sapphire in the US.
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In general, is this saying that the grading standard varies with geographical location somehow?

How does this work?
 
MJO thanks for your reply. I understand about lighter tone, saturation being called pink sapphires. It sounds like the AGL is saying a stone from Burma that has a lot of purple would be called a ruby while a stone from another location with the same hue,tone,saturation would be classed as purple sapphire. To me this makes no sense at all. But I guess they are the experts.
 
Date: 10/4/2005 12:43:55 AM
Author: valeria101

Date: 10/3/2005 10:33:31 PM
Author: MJO

I think the AGL color scan has a definitive cutoff in hue on the red scale to call it a ruby or sapphire in the US.
Click to expand...
In general, is this saying that the grading standard varies with geographical location somehow?

How does this work?
Click to expand...
Hello Ana,

The AGL and other US labs do have differnet Criteria than Asian Labs for a cutoff hue between pink sapphire and ruby. Pink is really just a less saturated Red so where the cuttoff line is has never been established worldwide. It''s like what is a Pad sapphire? Different labs will rule differently. Even the same lab will certify differently at different times.
 
Date: 10/4/2005 1:18:55 AM
Author: colormyworld
MJO thanks for your reply. I understand about lighter tone, saturation being called pink sapphires. It sounds like the AGL is saying a stone from Burma that has a lot of purple would be called a ruby while a stone from another location with the same hue,tone,saturation would be classed as purple sapphire. To me this makes no sense at all. But I guess they are the experts.
Click to expand...
I think you are right but Burma stones have something else also. The floress in UV light. They have a glow in daylight where most stones from other locations don''t.
 
MJO thanks for your reply. I am not an expert so take it easy on me. I seem to rember reading some where that iron is the reason for the blue which with red is what we see as purple in sapphire. The red is caused by chromium which is the reason the stone fluoreses. I thought the iron cancels the fluorescence caused by the chromium. Like I said I am not an expert. Just trying to learn. Regards Doug
 
Mandalay,

Really interesting thread! You seem to be something of a historian. On the subject of Gubellin's view of purple red perhaps you could clarify.

It is true that pigeon's blood is purplish-red but in modern parlance purple-red means that the secondary hue is almost as prominent as the primary hue. Pigeon's blood is maybe 85% red and 15% maximum purple. How would you describe the color of the ruby in question.

Also, did you mean to say that the stone IS currently for sale?
 
Hi R.W. Wise,

This stone is 1 tone softer than fine Pigeon Blood but extremely clean (just a tiny liquid feather near, not toucing, girdle). It has a pinkish overtone.

Yes, the stone is still available, but price seems too high.

Man.
 
Mandalay,

I have spent the past year looking for a fine 5-7 carat (unheated) Burma ruby for a client. I am amazed at just how rare these gems are. I saw nothing worthy in either Bangkok or Rangoon or Mandalay on my trip in March. Could not go to Mogok for the usual reasons.

I did see a couple of stones in New York but nothing of sufficient quality. It 5-7 carat heated stone can be found but even so they are scarce in top quality (well cut, eyeclean, top color) There was a 12+ carat stone at the recent Hong Kong show that was pigeon blood color with a GRS certificate. Very fine stone, asking price $100,000 per carat plus. I thought that price seemed low given the Christie's benchmark price on the 8.01.

With the provenance, seems to me that the "Queen of Burma" should fetch in access of $300,000 per carat at a "Magnificent Jewelry" auction in either New York or Geneva. So there is my guess. What is the asking price?
 
Hi Richard,

Yes, natural unheated Ruby stones are rare indeed today. But it is still available. More rare are the unheated Blue Sapphire from Mogok, Burma.

Last month a gem dealer in Bangkok sold to a Taiwanese consumer, an 8 Cts. + unheated Mogok, Burmese Ruby for US$2 million. And, another 3 Cts. + was sold for US$30,000- per carat.

Having said these, why an over 10 Cts. clean Paraiba Tourmaline cost more than US$35,000- per carat ??? Much more than a good fine unheated natural Ruby/Blue Sapphire ? Is large fine Paraiba (hardness 7+)more rare than an unheated natural Ruby/Blue Sapphire ?

Man.
 
Hello Mr. Bond,

My Avatar is a Blue unheated Mogok sapphire. It''s a concave cut 5.2ct round I had recut from a 7ct stone. It was much easier to find than a 5ct top Blue Clean Paraiba. BTW I was born in Rangoon.
 
Mandalay,

Have to agree with MJO, I have three or four Burma sapphires and not a single Pariaba. However, not sure how much actual rarity counts beyond a certain point.

I made my guess on the Burma Queen per your request but you have not responded to my question. What is the current price of the Burma Queen? Fair is fair, tit for tat, otherwise I!m gonna have to pick up my ball and bat and go home.
 
Hi, R.W. Wise,

I have no opinion on Paraiba or its rarity. I used to buy by the Kilos from Nigeria the Pink Tourmaline and mix into it are these stones too.. Suddenly these electric green and blue stones becomes Paraiba of Paraiba, Brazil. The Germans claim that Nigeria and Paraiba was once joint together, judging from the world map before the world split.

On the price, just be cool. In the beginning of the year, a Dubai Sheiik has offered US$4 M and the owner still did not part with it.

Man.
 
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