Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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Queen of Burma Ruby
- Thread starter Mandalay
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Hello Mandalay,
The top Brazilian Paraiba Tourmalines are much different looking than the Nigerian stones. Only Top Brazilian stones are $10,000+/ct. Only top Brazilian stones have both copper and a high gold content. Even Brazilian stones from the newer find don''t have this high copper and gold content.
By claiming these stones are from the original find in Paraiba they are commiting fraud that is provable. Also, not all the stones from these Nigerian mines contain copper (only a very small percentage do) so even these are rare.
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Hello Maurice,
I noticed lots of Nigerian "Paraiba" tourmaline being sold at Tucson last February -- and not a fraud lawyer in sight. I saw lots of Brazilian amethyst being sold as "Siberian" too, and plenty of Nigerian spessartite sold as Namibian "Mandarin."
My aim is not to quibble but to point out that that trade terms in colored gems are rife with misrepresentations. Maybe if a dealer sold you a $10,000/carat stone as a genuine Brazilian Paraiba (in writing on the invoice) and your "experts" thought otherwise, you might prevail in a lawsuit -- depending on what the dealer''s "experts" testified. It would certainly be an interesting lawsuit. But the term is used widely and dealers selling Nigerian goods, if questioned closely, will probably admit to Nigerian origin and hedge saying "Paraiba" describes a particular color, as with "Siberian" amethyst.
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Hi Richard M.,
Of course unfortunately, you are right that there are plenty of misrepresented stones out there. What I am trying to say is that on reality stones like genuine Paraiba Tourmaline are very rare and very beautiful. Like fine Kashmire Sapphire these stones in large sizes are the cream of the tourmaline gems. The next best IMO are vivid blue Afghan Tourmaline. From what I understand they have a high lithiom content. Lithiom is also a heavy metal as is copper. The best of these stones look very similar to very good (not top) Paraiba''s. I have been buying this now that it is more available.
Siberian amethyst is another story. I beleive most of what is sold now is synthetic. Since it isn''t expensive to purchase it would cost more than the stone is worth to have it tested by a reputable lab.
Of course unfortunately, you are right that there are plenty of misrepresented stones out there. What I am trying to say is that on reality stones like genuine Paraiba Tourmaline are very rare and very beautiful. Like fine Kashmire Sapphire these stones in large sizes are the cream of the tourmaline gems. The next best IMO are vivid blue Afghan Tourmaline. From what I understand they have a high lithiom content. Lithiom is also a heavy metal as is copper. The best of these stones look very similar to very good (not top) Paraiba''s. I have been buying this now that it is more available.
Siberian amethyst is another story. I beleive most of what is sold now is synthetic. Since it isn''t expensive to purchase it would cost more than the stone is worth to have it tested by a reputable lab.
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As I said, I don''t mean to quibble -- except lithium is a very light, not heavy -- metal.
The problem, as I see it, comes down to the old bugaboo of proving origin. There''s little scientific question that Nigeria and Brazil were separated by plate tectonics, and the pegmatites that yield tourmaline in both countries probably originated about the same time, from roughly the same magmatic chemistry. Like I said, it would be an interesting court case. I''d buy popcorn and elbow for a front-row seat.
As for amethyst, there''s no doubt hydrothermal synthetics have taken over the mass market. The definition of "Siberian" amethyst usually implies fine deep purple color with red scintillation. However, I''ve read several "expert" definitions that differ. So as usual it''s a game of "pick your expert."
The problem, as I see it, comes down to the old bugaboo of proving origin. There''s little scientific question that Nigeria and Brazil were separated by plate tectonics, and the pegmatites that yield tourmaline in both countries probably originated about the same time, from roughly the same magmatic chemistry. Like I said, it would be an interesting court case. I''d buy popcorn and elbow for a front-row seat.
As for amethyst, there''s no doubt hydrothermal synthetics have taken over the mass market. The definition of "Siberian" amethyst usually implies fine deep purple color with red scintillation. However, I''ve read several "expert" definitions that differ. So as usual it''s a game of "pick your expert."
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Hi,
A staff gemologist of Gubelin Lab passing through Bangkok. I have the opportunity to ask him on the question of "Purple Red" for "Pigeon Blood" Ruby from Burma.
He explained thus : By defination, Ruby has to be just having Red Hue. There are origin sources other than pure Red, they will term them as "Purple Red", "Brownish Red" etc.
Man.
A staff gemologist of Gubelin Lab passing through Bangkok. I have the opportunity to ask him on the question of "Purple Red" for "Pigeon Blood" Ruby from Burma.
He explained thus : By defination, Ruby has to be just having Red Hue. There are origin sources other than pure Red, they will term them as "Purple Red", "Brownish Red" etc.
Man.
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Dear MJO,
I can''t get your point. Can you please be more clear ??
Do you mean why the Cert. as shown was "Purple Red " ?
Well then havn''t I just explained above that due to origin sources from some areas like Burma, where Rubies are never pure Red but always with a shade of pink, they described it as "Purple Red".
If you asked then why not "Pinkish Red". Well, I think I am stupid and have to ask him again when he is on his back to Europe passing through here again in days again.
Man.
I can''t get your point. Can you please be more clear ??
Do you mean why the Cert. as shown was "Purple Red " ?
Well then havn''t I just explained above that due to origin sources from some areas like Burma, where Rubies are never pure Red but always with a shade of pink, they described it as "Purple Red".
If you asked then why not "Pinkish Red". Well, I think I am stupid and have to ask him again when he is on his back to Europe passing through here again in days again.
Man.
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Hi Mandalay,
In the one post you say" A staff gemologist of Gubelin Lab...... explained thus : By defination, Ruby has to be just having Red Hue......other than pure Red, they will term them as ''Purple Red'', ''Brownish Red'' etc".
I take that to mean if a stone is not pure red (such as purple/red is not) they do not concider this a ruby, but as a sapphire.
In the letter dated 1999 previously in this thread was from the "Gubelin Lab" stating that the stone in question was a "Natural Ruby" and was "Purple/Red". This contradicts the above post where you say the Gemologist from the Gubelin Lab stated that a ruby "by definition" has to be red. I could have interpreted your post incorrectly.
Dear MJO,
I got your point now. Thanks.
Well if you see and hold the stone and you will know that it is just Ruby and Not a 0.1% Sapphire.
The Staff Gemologist mean that if it is not pure Red, then they will termed its secondary hue of red along with its host hue of red. And, somehow all Burmese Ruby, Gubelin Lab termed them as Purple red.
Personally I can see a lot of controversy. In the old gemological books, the basic color hue that''s important to determine the gem variety. Whereas, I heard today, they determine the impurity coloring agent as the base to determine the gem variety.
I think it is best that you direct this question to their website where you will get a fair good reply than unofficially through here.
Man.
I got your point now. Thanks.
Well if you see and hold the stone and you will know that it is just Ruby and Not a 0.1% Sapphire.
The Staff Gemologist mean that if it is not pure Red, then they will termed its secondary hue of red along with its host hue of red. And, somehow all Burmese Ruby, Gubelin Lab termed them as Purple red.
Personally I can see a lot of controversy. In the old gemological books, the basic color hue that''s important to determine the gem variety. Whereas, I heard today, they determine the impurity coloring agent as the base to determine the gem variety.
I think it is best that you direct this question to their website where you will get a fair good reply than unofficially through here.
Man.
The Joker
Shiny_Rock
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Mandalay:
I always find that reading "The Gemstone Forecaster" to be very informative. Their reports come out quarterly, and always have interesting information on Gemstones (all kinds). They had an article on Rubies in their summer issue that you might find helpful.
Here is the link:
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfsummer05.html
Hope this helps.
Joker....
I always find that reading "The Gemstone Forecaster" to be very informative. Their reports come out quarterly, and always have interesting information on Gemstones (all kinds). They had an article on Rubies in their summer issue that you might find helpful.
Here is the link:
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfsummer05.html
Hope this helps.
Joker....
rubydick
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Allow me to weigh in on this heavy topic. "Pigeon''s blood ruby" is not unlike "cornflower" or "padparadscha" or "kashmir" sapphire. These are general terms that were never precisely defined in the past and thus are certainly subject to broad interpretation.
The problems begins when one expects labs to become de facto judges of words that were historically never precisely defined and which continue to resist definition. Let me wager an opinion: pigeon''s blood can, should and will resist any attempt at pigeon-holing.
The gem trade and gem buyers need to give up their obsession with these words. Eyes trump vocabularly each and every time. There are no "best" colors and no "worst." Individual choices are exactly what they seem to be: personal preferences. Choosing a fine gem is not unlike choosing a wife or husband. Throw away the idea of perfection. It simply doesn''t exist. Focus on the person''s charms, learn to weigh the flaws against nothing other than the sum of the attributes. Do this, and you just might find yourself falling in love. Ignore it only if a monk''s life appeals.
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Great words of wisdom and the usual punchy writing too! It requires some courage as a lab representative to make such assertions since labs are -- at root -- responsible for this consumer obsession thanks to the GIA''s quantification of diamond quality. Now if we could only apply the same good sense to gem origin...a fine ruby is a fine ruby, whether from Mogok, North Carolina, Tanzania, Montana or...? Some sources merely produce more fine stones consistently.
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