Question For Rhino - Thoughts on this GIA Triple X Steep/Deep

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/15/2008 9:27:22 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/15/2008 8:19:43 PM
Author: JulieN
The reason why it''s cheap is probably because of the cut. Since no one on PS can confirm that (except for a few Boston appraisers who post on PS periodically) we can''t be sure why your stone is so cheap.

Very unlikely you''ll find something like H VS2 for that price. Drop it down to SI1 for better odds. What''s wrong with an indented natural, btw?

If the price is really that good (I have not researched it) you could always have a few points removed from the pavilion if it fell on the slightly deep side.

You really do need an appraiser to hold you hand - penny wise!!!!

Hey Garry,

I think that you are painting an over-simplified picture regarding re-cutting. I wonder if any appraiser is sufficiently qualified to really judge this.

Live long,

 

[msdracky]

Thank you Ellen...I''ll check out these diamonds!

 

[Ellen]

You''re welcome!

 

[msdracky]

Just to update all who have been so generous with their time & expertise...I''ve decided to exchange the 3X GIA diamond for an AGS 000. The person I bought the stone from only works with one diamond house in NY, so I am kind of limited here. I would have preferred to get my money back and start over by working with one of the diamond dealers on this site, but unfortunately that is not an option for me. In hindsight, I would have made sure there was a money back guarantee with my purchase...but I guess you learn from your mistakes. The positive is I do have an opportunity to exchange this diamond...it just might take some time for them to find an AGS 000.

When they do find a stone for me, I''m hoping it will be the "sparkler" I''ve been looking for. The parameters I gave to them are cut AGS 000...H color...VS2 or an eye-clean SI1...1.18 - 1.25 carat. Because this could take time to find, are there specific crown & pavillion angles as well as table size and total depth % I should give to them to give me the best chance that this new diamond will have fantastic light performance, or is it enough that it will be AGS 000? I know each diamond is unique and the final test should be with my own two eyes...but I''m just wondering if I can give this guy any specific parameters to give myself a better chance that this new diamond will be beautiful. My fear is that it could take several weeks and perhaps months for him to find this diamond so I want to increase my odds that it will be a keeper...if possible. Thanks again for all of your help...this forum truly is filled with kind & informative people and has helped me in my quest for a beautiful diamond.

 

[stone-cold11]

It is enough with AGS000.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/16/2008 2:59:57 PM
Author: msdracky
Just to update all who have been so generous with their time & expertise...I've decided to exchange the 3X GIA diamond for an AGS 000. The person I bought the stone from only works with one diamond house in NY, so I am kind of limited here. I would have preferred to get my money back and start over by working with one of the diamond dealers on this site, but unfortunately that is not an option for me. In hindsight, I would have made sure there was a money back guarantee with my purchase...but I guess you learn from your mistakes. The positive is I do have an opportunity to exchange this diamond...it just might take some time for them to find an AGS 000.

When they do find a stone for me, I'm hoping it will be the 'sparkler' I've been looking for. The parameters I gave to them are cut AGS 000...H color...VS2 or an eye-clean SI1...1.18 - 1.25 carat. Because this could take time to find, are there specific crown & pavillion angles as well as table size and total depth % I should give to them to give me the best chance that this new diamond will have fantastic light performance, or is it enough that it will be AGS 000? I know each diamond is unique and the final test should be with my own two eyes...but I'm just wondering if I can give this guy any specific parameters to give myself a better chance that this new diamond will be beautiful. My fear is that it could take several weeks and perhaps months for him to find this diamond so I want to increase my odds that it will be a keeper...if possible. Thanks again for all of your help...this forum truly is filled with kind & informative people and has helped me in my quest for a beautiful diamond.

There are some well cut stones out there with GIA Excellent cut grades, AGS1 etc so here are some numbers you can use to find a well cut stone if you want to broaden the options, you don't have to go for an AGS0 necessarily to get a well cut diamond. Although some believe AGS0 cut grade is sufficient to get a beautiful diamond, however I believe in carefully checking each diamond to make sure rather than assume anything, as you would do with any major purchase.

Here are some numbers you can use to help you find a well cut diamond.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above


Note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate.

And advice from one of our experts -

As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

You can also use the Holloway Cut Advisor when your jeweller comes up with some diamonds to eliminate the lesser performers so you know which to concentrate on. Aim in most cases to score 2 or below.

https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

 

[msdracky]

Thank you Lorelei!

I guess I''m just a little confused on something...the stone I''m exchanging out fits into your ranges...since you prefer to allow up to 62.4 total depth...it is 62.3. The 41 pavillion angle also just makes the top end of your range. The table is 55 so that''s ok. The only measurement that is a little high is the crown angle at 35.5. Is that extra .5 degree of crown angle enough to push my original diamond out of the ideal range for you?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/16/2008 3:29:25 PM
Author: msdracky
Thank you Lorelei!

I guess I'm just a little confused on something...the stone I'm exchanging out fits into your ranges...since you prefer to allow up to 62.4 total depth...it is 62.3. The 41 pavillion angle also just makes the top end of your range. The table is 55 so that's ok. The only measurement that is a little high is the crown angle at 35.5. Is that extra .5 degree of crown angle enough to push my original diamond out of the ideal range for you?

If you read the note -

" Note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate. "

Where I highlighted above, it says that angle ranges which are steeper need evaluation to make sure they complement that particular diamond and to check for light leakage, your diamond is in what we call steep deep range at 35.5/ 41 where caution and further evaluation is required.

With angle ranges it is a question of balance, so a 41 deg pavilion angle harmonizes well with a 34.0-34.5 crown which is shallower, rather than a steeper crown angle. Conversely a 40.6 pavilion angle works well with a 34.5 - 35 degree crown angle, as you can see it is a question of angles being a good fit or balance for each other.

 

[msdracky]

ok...I get it now...sorry I missed that part
Thanks!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/16/2008 3:42:22 PM
Author: msdracky
ok...I get it now...sorry I missed that part
Thanks!

LOL- no worries!

 

[stone-cold11]

And AGS0 stones will take care of all these angles and stuff.

 

[msdracky]

That''s a good thing because I may have just 1 more shot at getting this right!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 12/16/2008 4:05:09 PM
Author: msdracky
That''s a good thing because I may have just 1 more shot at getting this right!

Good to see how this is working out for you msdracky. Keep us posted.

 

[msdracky]

Thanks Rhino!

So the latest turn of events is that the diamond house in NY, where the jeweler/broker I bought from got the stone, is unwilling to search for an AGS000 for me. They are only offering to exchange the stone for a stone existing in their current inventory, and only after Christmas...boy, did I mess up on this decision to buy from someone with no return policy! So, I guess the majority of their diamonds are GIA certified and they only have a few AGS ones (not meeting my parameters).

My two options are to wait until after Xmas and see what they have left in inventory (the tough economy/slow holiday shopping season might work in my favor here) or work with an AGS certified cutter to give my existing stone ideal AGS dimensions. I''m leaning toward the 1st option because it sounds easier and is less risky. I guess if I could get a guarantee from a cutter that my stone would grade AGS000 after the re-cutting process it might be worth it. I could specify the exact proportions I wanted...intriguing, but I''m guessing getting some kind of guarantee is wishful thinking and isn''t the way it works??

Lorelei was kind enough to give me ranges to look for in trying to get a diamond with optimal light performance. I''m thinking about passing along ranges to the jeweler in NY to help focus the search. Is there a "sweet spot" narrower range of numbers known to be pretty much can''t miss for optimal light performance? Does anyone know the parameters for crown angle, pavillion angle, table & total depth that would result in a solid excellent score on the HCA? Thanks again to all who have helped to educate & guide me!

 

[Savvymon]

Its a pain that they're not willing to look for a AGS000!

If you do choose to exchange the stone you could purchase an ideal scope from Garry Holloway (Cut Nut) and when you look at stones you can scope them to check for symetry and leackage in store. The beginners model is only $25 + postage. http://www.ideal-scope.com

In reference to solution b. getting your stone re-cut from a steep deep White Flash do recut, there are often threads where people have done this and their stone is recut to their ACA standards which is very very nice, though you do loose a little weight. He's a link to one happy ps'r complete with before and after pics.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-incredible-newly-recut-rb-thank-you-brian-gavin-and-wf.86854/

Good luck

 

[msdracky]

Thanks to the link about the positive WF re-cutting experience...what a big difference! My hope is if I decide to go that route, I''ll only have to shave a few points off the size to get it into ideal AGS000 range...it is a well cut stone, just a bit steep/deep.

 

[msdracky]

Hi Garry,

Can you, or anyone else on this forum, recommend a world class cutter who would be able to transform this slightly steep/deep diamond into an ideal cut stone (AGS000)? Not sure if you''ve kept up with my situation but right now my 2 options are:

Exchange the diamond for another GIA 3X stone hopefully with better cut proportions (I''m waiting to see what the diamond house has in inventory)...perhaps this would be the easiest solution.

or

Re-Cut the stone as you previously suggested. This would be an attractive option if the stone only needs slight tweaking and the re-cutting results in a minimum loss of .3 carat weight or less (I''d like to keep it around 1.20 carat). If I do go the re-cutting route with an AGS certified cutter, what do you think the chances are of the re-cut diamond actually grading out AGS000? How would I go about the grading submission process with AGS? Can a consumer submit a diamond for grading or does it have to go through a retailer/wholesaler? Any advice on this re-cutting scenario would be very much appreciated. Last question I promise ...to hit Excellent on all 4 categories on the HCA...do you have any idea on what adjustments to the current crown angle (35.5) & pavillion angle (41.0) would have to be made? I tried plugging in a few different measurements but I couldn''t score Excellent on the Spread. Is this because of the table size of 55? The total depth currently is 62.3

 

[Kelli]

Date: 12/16/2008 10:27:47 PM
Author: msdracky
Hi Garry,

Can you, or anyone else on this forum, recommend a world class cutter who would be able to transform this slightly steep/deep diamond into an ideal cut stone (AGS000)? Not sure if you''ve kept up with my situation but right now my 2 options are:

Exchange the diamond for another GIA 3X stone hopefully with better cut proportions (I''m waiting to see what the diamond house has in inventory)...perhaps this would be the easiest solution.

or

Re-Cut the stone as you previously suggested. This would be an attractive option if the stone only needs slight tweaking and the re-cutting results in a minimum loss of .3 carat weight or less (I''d like to keep it around 1.20 carat). If I do go the re-cutting route with an AGS certified cutter, what do you think the chances are of the re-cut diamond actually grading out AGS000? How would I go about the grading submission process with AGS? Can a consumer submit a diamond for grading or does it have to go through a retailer/wholesaler? Any advice on this re-cutting scenario would be very much appreciated. Last question I promise ...to hit Excellent on all 4 categories on the HCA...do you have any idea on what adjustments to the current crown angle (35.5) & pavillion angle (41.0) would have to be made? I tried plugging in a few different measurements but I couldn''t score Excellent on the Spread. Is this because of the table size of 55? The total depth currently is 62.3

I had WF recut my steep/deep GIA triple excellent and was THRILLED with the results. I was actually inspired to do it by the thread posted above. You can send it straight to them, no dealing with retailers or wholesalers. One important thing to remember is that that can''t guaantee anything! It is a small risk, but there are a very few diamonds that break. They also won''t be able to guarantee what your diamond will weigh when it''s all done. Mine was a 1.44 and turned out a 1.35. I have to say though, it doesn''t look any smaller. It only lost about a tenth of a mm in diameter and sparkles so much more the size loss isn''t noticeable. I was told it would be anywhere from 1.35 to 1.39 when it was done. They can''t guarantee exactly what it will be graded afterwards either, but you can send it out to them and they''ll give you a really good idea before you decide anything. After it''s done, they send it out for re-certification. I did all of this and am SOOOOO glad I did, but it is a pretty lengthy process. It takes a few months, so having it around Christmas won''t be an option. As much as I''m glad I did it, if I could have looked for another diamond first, I might have done that because it''s less risky and might be faster. Good luck in whatever you choose!

 

[Kelli]

Just for fun, here is a comparison of my before and after pics. The before one is pretty, but you''ll notice the second one is SO much brighter. In real life, I do see the difference in brightness and it actually went up a color grade from an I to an H with the recut!


Here is the before:

 

[Kelli]

And here is the after

 

[Rhino]

Hi msdracky,

Thanks Rhino!

My pleasure.

So the latest turn of events is that the diamond house in NY, where the jeweler/broker I bought from got the stone, is unwilling to search for an AGS000 for me. They are only offering to exchange the stone for a stone existing in their current inventory, and only after Christmas

After? Why not before? It''s only December 17th. Plenty of time for Christmas. Unless of course they simply don''t have it.

boy, did I mess up on this decision to buy from someone with no return policy!

No matter whether the purchase is diamonds or whatever ... I never purchase from a company that does not have a return policy.

So, I guess the majority of their diamonds are GIA certified and they only have a few AGS ones (not meeting my parameters).

If you follow the guidlines that Ellen or Lorelei gave you you can get a GIA graded diamond that should be fine. I''d make one exception to their suggestion though. Ellen gave you a 35/41.0 max. That is fine is Optical Symmetry is *right on* however most of the diamonds on the market do not have great optical symmetry. I''ve had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky optical symmetry that I wouldn''t buy BUT you do at least stand a better chance. Since you are able to at least exchange I''d suggest sticking to pavilion angles at 40.8 on the GIA Report with crown angles varying between 34-35 with a table in the mid 50''s.

We won''t get into lower girdle facets since they''ll already think you''re being too particular with those parameters.

My two options are to wait until after Xmas and see what they have left in inventory (the tough economy/slow holiday shopping season might work in my favor here) or work with an AGS certified cutter to give my existing stone ideal AGS dimensions. I''m leaning toward the 1st option because it sounds easier and is less risky.

I agree.

I guess if I could get a guarantee from a cutter that my stone would grade AGS000 after the re-cutting process it might be worth it. I could specify the exact proportions I wanted...intriguing, but I''m guessing getting some kind of guarantee is wishful thinking and isn''t the way it works??

You are right. While there are cutters who excersise great consistency in their craft nobody can predict what it will come out at in the lab. They can even disagree on clarity/colors.

Lorelei was kind enough to give me ranges to look for in trying to get a diamond with optimal light performance. I''m thinking about passing along ranges to the jeweler in NY to help focus the search. Is there a ''sweet spot'' narrower range of numbers known to be pretty much can''t miss for optimal light performance? Does anyone know the parameters for crown angle, pavillion angle, table & total depth that would result in a solid excellent score on the HCA? Thanks again to all who have helped to educate & guide me!

The parameters I gave you above would really hone in for ya. With regards to total depth you''re ok from the mid 60.x range up to the low 62.x range which will keep you in the center of both GIA/AGS systems. One thing I like very much about the GIA system is their conservative grading of painting/digging.

Kind regards,

 

[msdracky]

very nice! Thanks for sharing

 

[msdracky]

Hey Rhino,

Great...I will share those parameters with the diamond house and hopefully they will have a good match for me. Thanks again for all of your help!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/17/2008 1:18:15 AM
Author: msdracky
Hey Rhino,

Great...I will share those parameters with the diamond house and hopefully they will have a good match for me. Thanks again for all of your help!

Great stuff and with Rhino''s addition to the advice given you should do well!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 12/17/2008 12:19:23 AM
Author: Rhino
Hi msdracky,



If you follow the guidlines that Ellen or Lorelei gave you you can get a GIA graded diamond that should be fine. I'd make one exception to their suggestion though. Ellen gave you a 35/41.0 max. That is fine is Optical Symmetry is *right on* however most of the diamonds on the market do not have great optical symmetry. I've had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky optical symmetry that I wouldn't buy BUT you do at least stand a better chance. Since you are able to at least exchange I'd suggest sticking to pavilion angles at 40.8 on the GIA Report with crown angles varying between 34-35 with a table in the mid 50's.

We won't get into lower girdle facets since they'll already think you're being too particular with those parameters.

I did? I don't see that anywhere.

I usually use the "cliff notes" Miss Lorelei posted earlier (from Sir John) in regards to GIA stones and C/P angles. But I didn't even post in here about any parameters.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/17/2008 7:08:30 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 12/17/2008 12:19:23 AM
Author: Rhino
Hi msdracky,



If you follow the guidlines that Ellen or Lorelei gave you you can get a GIA graded diamond that should be fine. I''d make one exception to their suggestion though. Ellen gave you a 35/41.0 max. That is fine is Optical Symmetry is *right on* however most of the diamonds on the market do not have great optical symmetry. I''ve had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky optical symmetry that I wouldn''t buy BUT you do at least stand a better chance. Since you are able to at least exchange I''d suggest sticking to pavilion angles at 40.8 on the GIA Report with crown angles varying between 34-35 with a table in the mid 50''s.

We won''t get into lower girdle facets since they''ll already think you''re being too particular with those parameters.

I did? I don''t see that anywhere.

I usually use the ''cliff notes'' Miss Lorelei posted earlier (from Sir John) in regards to GIA stones and C/P angles. But I didn''t even post in here about any parameters.

Fink Jon meant me!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 12/17/2008 7:13:16 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 12/17/2008 7:08:30 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 12/17/2008 12:19:23 AM
Author: Rhino
Hi msdracky,



If you follow the guidlines that Ellen or Lorelei gave you you can get a GIA graded diamond that should be fine. I''d make one exception to their suggestion though. Ellen gave you a 35/41.0 max. That is fine is Optical Symmetry is *right on* however most of the diamonds on the market do not have great optical symmetry. I''ve had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky optical symmetry that I wouldn''t buy BUT you do at least stand a better chance. Since you are able to at least exchange I''d suggest sticking to pavilion angles at 40.8 on the GIA Report with crown angles varying between 34-35 with a table in the mid 50''s.

We won''t get into lower girdle facets since they''ll already think you''re being too particular with those parameters.

I did? I don''t see that anywhere.

I usually use the ''cliff notes'' Miss Lorelei posted earlier (from Sir John) in regards to GIA stones and C/P angles. But I didn''t even post in here about any parameters.

Fink Jon meant me!

I fink he did too.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/17/2008 7:49:04 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 12/17/2008 7:13:16 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 12/17/2008 7:08:30 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 12/17/2008 12:19:23 AM
Author: Rhino
Hi msdracky,



If you follow the guidlines that Ellen or Lorelei gave you you can get a GIA graded diamond that should be fine. I''d make one exception to their suggestion though. Ellen gave you a 35/41.0 max. That is fine is Optical Symmetry is *right on* however most of the diamonds on the market do not have great optical symmetry. I''ve had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky optical symmetry that I wouldn''t buy BUT you do at least stand a better chance. Since you are able to at least exchange I''d suggest sticking to pavilion angles at 40.8 on the GIA Report with crown angles varying between 34-35 with a table in the mid 50''s.

We won''t get into lower girdle facets since they''ll already think you''re being too particular with those parameters.

I did? I don''t see that anywhere.

I usually use the ''cliff notes'' Miss Lorelei posted earlier (from Sir John) in regards to GIA stones and C/P angles. But I didn''t even post in here about any parameters.

Fink Jon meant me!

I fink he did too.

Then we fink the same then.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 12/17/2008 7:53:32 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 12/17/2008 7:49:04 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 12/17/2008 7:13:16 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 12/17/2008 7:08:30 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 12/17/2008 12:19:23 AM
Author: Rhino
Hi msdracky,



If you follow the guidlines that Ellen or Lorelei gave you you can get a GIA graded diamond that should be fine. I''d make one exception to their suggestion though. Ellen gave you a 35/41.0 max. That is fine is Optical Symmetry is *right on* however most of the diamonds on the market do not have great optical symmetry. I''ve had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky optical symmetry that I wouldn''t buy BUT you do at least stand a better chance. Since you are able to at least exchange I''d suggest sticking to pavilion angles at 40.8 on the GIA Report with crown angles varying between 34-35 with a table in the mid 50''s.

We won''t get into lower girdle facets since they''ll already think you''re being too particular with those parameters.

I did? I don''t see that anywhere.

I usually use the ''cliff notes'' Miss Lorelei posted earlier (from Sir John) in regards to GIA stones and C/P angles. But I didn''t even post in here about any parameters.

Fink Jon meant me!

I fink he did too.

Then we fink the same then.

Maybe Jon finks you da same..?

 

[msdracky]

I fink my head is about to explode with all of this great new information!