Question for the pros: natural egd, value after purchase?

[yssie]

[/QUOTE]
Ditto other posters. For diamonds to be guaranteed investments they’ve got to be of exceptional size and rarity (think “world-renown auction houses”), or have exceptional colour, or have some sort of high-profile heritage.

What is a 110% upgrade policy?

 

[joey_v]

I’ll look at the aset scope
I believe from all the pears and ovals I’ve seen, it’s a reflection of the persons head or body, the bigger the stone, the easier to spot. Also it adds contrast to the stone.

Here are other pics of same 3.6 D VS2

 

[joey_v]

Ditto other posters. For diamonds to be guaranteed investments they’ve got to be of exceptional size and rarity (think “world-renown auction houses”), or have exceptional colour, or have some sort of high-profile heritage.

What is a 110% upgrade policy?
[/QUOTE]

If I trade up, they give me 10% more than I purchased for.
Doesn’t have to be double the initial diamond. Even if 10% more.

 

[joey_v]

I am not at all well versed in pears and others may chime in here with more relevant info than I possess. However, you would want to minimize that dark place in the middle. This is why I would want an ASET image to show light leakage. It could just be an effect of the lighting or the angle of the picture but as with ovals, you want to avoid that bow tie or dark space in the center that is not reflecting light back.
Nothing to hang your hat on as pears are not my forte, but something to consider.

Here is the original listing:
The video is typically pretty clear on either significant bow tie or not
If shadow because of pear size, it’s not a technical bow tie from my experience

3.6 pear d vs2

 

[Rockdiamond]

If I trade up, they give me 10% more than I purchased for.
Doesn’t have to be double the initial diamond. Even if 10% more.

So- we buy a $10k diamond. Tomorrow, we can trade up, and get one for $11k, $0 out of pocket.
The following day we can trade up to $12100 with no out of pocket.
Sounds ......too good to be true.
Raises red flags?
Do you have this in writing?

 

[joey_v]

Diamonds Direct

 

[lulu_ma]

Diamonds Direct Review - Are they good value for money?

I have completed a full review of Diamonds Direct to help you make the right choice when it comes to buying a diamond engagement ring. Find out more here.

yourdiamondguru.com

 

[Lookinagain]

Diamonds Direct

I don't see that the upgrade policy says what you need to pay as an increase for the new diamond. Is it a certain percentage more than the original stone? Is it double the amount of the original diamond? What happens if the new stone is only 5% more than the original stone? Without that information, getting 110% doesn't tell me much.

 

[RetroQT]

I don't see that the upgrade policy says what you need to pay as an increase for the new diamond. Is it a certain percentage more than the original stone? Is it double the amount of the original diamond? What happens if the new stone is only 5% more than the original stone? Without that information, getting 110% doesn't tell me much.

It’s confusing. It says you can come in as often as you desire to upgrade, but then it implies you have to wait a year. Am I reading the right?

 

[lulu_ma]

 

[LLJsmom]

I don't see that the upgrade policy says what you need to pay as an increase for the new diamond. Is it a certain percentage more than the original stone? Is it double the amount of the original diamond? What happens if the new stone is only 5% more than the original stone? Without that information, getting 110% doesn't tell me much.

It’s confusing. It says you can come in as often as you desire to upgrade, but then it implies you have to wait a year. Am I reading the right?

Both @RetroQT and @Lookinagain make excellent points. Information is incomplete, and it will be up to you to ask all the necessary questions to be fully informed about their trade up policy. For example, last I checked, Blue Nile requires the new diamond be 2x the price of the old one. Whiteflash requires it to be just a $1 more than the old one. Brian Gavin Diamonds requires higher 2/3, meaning higher cut and clarity, or higher carat and clarity or some other combo. This company says they will credit you 110% of the original. That implies that the new diamond must be of a certain percentage or value of your old one. Clearly it's not at least $1 more or you would be getting money back. You should just be clear on the policy. Next, the details of the policy need to be written, and where would it be written? On the receipt? On some document you receive with the diamond? Can you confirm that the policy will be applicable to your purchase because policies can change over time. Lastly, let's say you want to upgrade but you need to make sure that the company can get you the stone you want. If it's not in their stock and they need to source it, will it still qualify for the upgrade program? Lastly, just keep in mind that if you are searching for your upgrade diamond, the price will be determined by them. So sure they will give you 110% of the value of your original diamond. Given the size of the diamonds you are looking for, there aren't a ton of them. I looked for any D-H, VS or VVS MRB over 5 carats and I found 3. That's not much. That means they have to bring in a stone, and they can price it however high they want, and at least enough to cover the extra 10% they give you. Upgrade programs are not always the easiest to use. Personally, I love Whiteflash's program, only $1 more and they usually have a lot of stock, but I am having trouble finding a stone that meets my criteria. Who would have predicted a war in Europe that would cause a reduction of supply? So even if I want to upgrade now, I just need to wait until the stone I want shows up in their stock.

 

[LLJsmom]

Here is the D VS2 3.6 pear
Looks juicy for sure.

Next to a 3.0 E IF pear

First off, have this seller give you the 80% buyback in writing. And how long is that 80% good for? What about sales tax?
Don't love the dark center. You need to get that stone in a holder and bring it around the house and look at it in all sorts of lighting. For that much money, I would not settle for something that has that much leakage. The ASET should be able to tell you more. You know, it doesn't matter if it's D, IF. That just means its an expensive ugly stone. Btw, I prefer the 3.0 to the bigger one.

 

[lovedogs]

I am concerned that you are going too quickly and not fully understanding the factors that go into a well cut pear. I see a large bowtie (as do many others here). D/IF wont help if the cut isnt good.

 

[joey_v]

Definitely would need it all in writing.

 

[LLJsmom]

nevermind. Good luck!

 

[joey_v]

Here’s the 3.6 D VS2 natural in person

Against 3.08 F VS1 HPHT lab

I think it looks fantastic in person

The cut is great

The bow tie is situational

Guaranteed buyback at 80%
110% upgrade after a year

Wife said she needed a night to think it over. Ball is in her court. Whatever she wants to do, I’ll do.

 

[LLJsmom]

Here’s the 3.6 D VS2 natural in person

Against 3.08 F VS1 HPHT lab

I think it looks fantastic in person

The cut is great

The bow tie is situational

Guaranteed buyback at 80%
110% upgrade after a year

Wife said she needed a night to think it over. Ball is in her court. Whatever she wants to do, I’ll do.

Congratulations on finding the right stone for you both. A long journey has come to an end that everyone is happy with. All this work was worth it. Can’t wait to see it set.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

There is a robust second hand market for natural diamonds of high quality, particularly for round brilliants. However, most consumers should not consider "parking money from their bond portfolio" in diamonds. It is true that some consumers have done quite well with resale, but there are so many market factors at play, and no clear path to resale or predictability of price.

There have been some attempts to create a standardized secondary market that would provide the pathway and some price certainty (tied to the market which can go up and down), but those efforts have not been particularly successful, and it is a shame. A market for diamonds similar to the market for gold bhat chain in Thailand would encourage growth in the diamond market.

Alas, consumers do not have that structure to work within - the secondary market is a completely decentralized ad hoc system relying on individual dealers. Buyback and trade-up programs are a related way for consumers to get some guarantee of liquidity and stored value, but they are only as good as the individual companies offering them.

*Having said all that, if you develop the expertise and contacts, you may be able to do as well reselling diamonds as you can in the high end stereo market.

Buying the right diamond at the right price is the key to any resale proposition. And, as was mentioned earlier by @Rfisher, the fact that diamonds are each unique (even DFL have different cut parameters, diamond type, and fluorescence), means that markets probably cannot be standardized to the level of fine watches. (it is somewhat surprising to me that the secondary market for watches is still strong considering that young people do not wear watches very much these days, as they have a very reliable timepiece in the computer they carry in their pocket!).

While most consumers should never consider diamonds a financial investment in the sense of anticipating a profit upon resale, diamond do have very high stored value compared to other big ticket items. And they are almost indestructible, so they can be passed down through the generations and bring lots of joy and emotional sentiment to those that are lucky enough to inherit them.

 

[RunningwithScissors]

Both @RetroQT and @Lookinagain make excellent points. Information is incomplete, and it will be up to you to ask all the necessary questions to be fully informed about their trade up policy. For example, last I checked, Blue Nile requires the new diamond be 2x the price of the old one. Whiteflash requires it to be just a $1 more than the old one. Brian Gavin Diamonds requires higher 2/3, meaning higher cut and clarity, or higher carat and clarity or some other combo. This company says they will credit you 110% of the original. That implies that the new diamond must be of a certain percentage or value of your old one. Clearly it's not at least $1 more or you would be getting money back. You should just be clear on the policy. Next, the details of the policy need to be written, and where would it be written? On the receipt? On some document you receive with the diamond? Can you confirm that the policy will be applicable to your purchase because policies can change over time. Lastly, let's say you want to upgrade but you need to make sure that the company can get you the stone you want. If it's not in their stock and they need to source it, will it still qualify for the upgrade program? Lastly, just keep in mind that if you are searching for your upgrade diamond, the price will be determined by them. So sure they will give you 110% of the value of your original diamond. Given the size of the diamonds you are looking for, there aren't a ton of them. I looked for any D-H, VS or VVS MRB over 5 carats and I found 3. That's not much. That means they have to bring in a stone, and they can price it however high they want, and at least enough to cover the extra 10% they give you. Upgrade programs are not always the easiest to use. Personally, I love Whiteflash's program, only $1 more and they usually have a lot of stock, but I am having trouble finding a stone that meets my criteria. Who would have predicted a war in Europe that would cause a reduction of supply? So even if I want to upgrade now, I just need to wait until the stone I want shows up in their stock.

Ditto what @LLJsmom said.

Plus, a company's buyback and upgrade policy is only good for as long as that company is in business.

Some of us, (even those of us who love...no, adore...our diamonds) have learned this lesson the hard way. We can't upgrade.

How do you know that the company will be around when you want to trade in your diamond? Companies come and go, they get bought and sold, go out of business, etc, that's the nature of business. Here today, gone/merged with a larger conglomerate with a new policy tomorrow.

 

[joey_v]

Yeah that’s the risk

Diamond Direct is big but I agree

 

[joey_v]

Ditto what @LLJsmom said.

Plus, a company's buyback and upgrade policy is only good for as long as that company is in business.

Some of us, (even those of us who love...no, adore...our diamonds) have learned this lesson the hard way. We can't upgrade.

How do you know that the company will be around when you want to trade in your diamond? Companies come and go, they get bought and sold, go out of business, etc, that's the nature of business. Here today, gone/merged with a larger conglomerate with a new policy tomorrow.

I guess you never know.

Can’t prepare for everything but Atleast be as well prepared as possible.

 

[LLJsmom]

Wait what are you going to do with that big lab? This is the daily and that will be special occasions or I thought that was supposed to be daily. Or was that someone else who had purchased a big lab and wanted a smaller mined diamond as well?

 

[denverappraiser]

Back in the early 80’s, so-called investment grade diamonds were all the rage. 1 carat D/IF ‘certified’ stones were tracking way ahead of the Dow and the kings of this was a company called International Diamond Company (aka IDC).

I’m STILL seeing customers with their IDC purchases. They almost always lose money, even 40 years later. Often they can’t even get half of their purchase price.

The problem was subtle. IDC grading was actually pretty good and they sold a lot of fairly high grade goods. They were real diamonds. IF- VVS. D-E-F. Popular weight points like 1.00 and 2.00cts. They were sealed in little plastic boxes and they mailed out a newsletter reporting on supposed wholesale prices. It was very official.



So what went wrong?



Weight, color, and clarity are not enough information. As everyone here knows, cut, which wasn’t mentioned at all on IDC reports, is a big deal and it was often umm, lacking in these stones. Fluorescence, which wasn’t mentioned either, is another glaring omission. In high grade stones, that can be a +/- 40% kind of topic, just for that.

• They were selling for high retail prices. Most stores didn’t, and still don’t, sell a lot of 2 carat D/IF’s. It was hard to shop them. Jewelers with sense want to stock things that they sell, and as mentioned, these are slow movers for most. It is definitely not like buying and selling bonds. Buying is easy. Selling is hard.
• In 1982, the market collapsed. Think bitcoin except it was these ‘investment grade’ diamonds. They lost about half the value and IDC evaporated into the ether.
• In the years since it was purchased, the market changed. Cut grading became a thing. Everything needs a cut grade now. The grading market changed too, and GIA became the dominant player.

Even all of that doesn’t sound so grim but it adds up.

Here’s an example from just a few months ago. I helped a client with a 1.00 VVS2/D/round brilliant/IDC. His Dad had bought it as an investment back in the 80’s.

That’s a pretty good stone, right? In the database here, that’ll cost about $10-$16k with GIA papers. Not bad. It needed to come out of the package and sent in to get a GIA pedigree. VVS2/E. That’s still pretty good, except the cut grade was Fair with strong blue fluro. That means a recut or no sale. $800, two fedex rides and 2 months later it’s 0.88cts. Still strong blue. That’s about $3.5k using the same database.

Retail.

OK, so what will a dealer pay now? Maybe $2k. Except that strong blue is still there. This won’t be an easy sell. This is going to sit in inventory for a while and it’s quite a bit of pain to go through this process. It’ll need a discount or it won’t move. The dealer bid will be more like $1.5k, and this is after spending $800 to make it saleable. $700 for a stone where the customer expected to go for north of $16k.

This stone was buried in paperwork. Certs, appraisals, you name it, all enshrined in a little folder in a safe deposit box to make it official. It was encased in plastic with a wax seal to prevent tampering. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[yssie]

Back in the early 80’s, so-called investment grade diamonds were all the rage. 1 carat D/IF ‘certified’ stones were tracking way ahead of the Dow and the kings of this was a company called International Diamond Company (aka IDC).

I’m STILL seeing customers with their IDC purchases. They almost always lose money, even 40 years later. Often they can’t even get half of their purchase price.

The problem was subtle. IDC grading was actually pretty good and they sold a lot of fairly high grade goods. They were real diamonds. IF- VVS. D-E-F. Popular weight points like 1.00 and 2.00cts. They were sealed in little plastic boxes and they mailed out a newsletter reporting on supposed wholesale prices. It was very official.



So what went wrong?



Weight, color, and clarity are not enough information. As everyone here knows, cut, which wasn’t mentioned at all on IDC reports, is a big deal and it was often umm, lacking in these stones. Fluorescence, which wasn’t mentioned either, is another glaring omission. In high grade stones, that can be a +/- 40% kind of topic, just for that.

• They were selling for high retail prices. Most stores didn’t, and still don’t, sell a lot of 2 carat D/IF’s. It was hard to shop them. Jewelers with sense want to stock things that they sell, and as mentioned, these are slow movers for most. It is definitely not like buying and selling bonds. Buying is easy. Selling is hard.
• In 1982, the market collapsed. Think bitcoin except it was these ‘investment grade’ diamonds. They lost about half the value and IDC evaporated into the ether.
• In the years since it was purchased, the market changed. Cut grading became a thing. Everything needs a cut grade now. The grading market changed too, and GIA became the dominant player.

Even all of that doesn’t sound so grim but it adds up.

Here’s an example from just a few months ago. I helped a client with a 1.00 VVS2/D/round brilliant/IDC. His Dad had bought it as an investment back in the 80’s.

That’s a pretty good stone, right? In the database here, that’ll cost about $10-$16k with GIA papers. Not bad. It needed to come out of the package and sent in to get a GIA pedigree. VVS2/E. That’s still pretty good, except the cut grade was Fair with strong blue fluro. That means a recut or no sale. $800, two fedex rides and 2 months later it’s 0.88cts. Still strong blue. That’s about $3.5k using the same database.

Retail.

OK, so what will a dealer pay now? Maybe $2k. Except that strong blue is still there. This won’t be an easy sell. This is going to sit in inventory for a while and it’s quite a bit of pain to go through this process. It’ll need a discount or it won’t move. The dealer bid will be more like $1.5k, and this is after spending $800 to make it saleable. $700 for a stone where the customer expected to go for north of $16k.

This stone was buried in paperwork. Certs, appraisals, you name it, all enshrined in a little folder in a safe deposit box to make it official. It was encased in plastic with a wax seal to prevent tampering. What could possibly go wrong?

I love reading your posts. On here and other social media. You choose your words so compellingly... If you wrote a book I'll bet it'd sell out right quick.

 

[joey_v]

Wait what are you going to do with that big lab? This is the daily and that will be special occasions or I thought that was supposed to be daily. Or was that someone else who had purchased a big lab and wanted a smaller mined diamond as well?

Turns out that I offered my wife a natural 3.6 D VS2 ex ex faint flourescence pear for both her 3.08 F VS1 pear hpht and the 6.75 D VS2 oval hpht. Turns out she prefers having the oval as a secondary.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Back in the early 80’s, so-called investment grade diamonds were all the rage. 1 carat D/IF ‘certified’ stones were tracking way ahead of the Dow and the kings of this was a company called International Diamond Company (aka IDC).

I’m STILL seeing customers with their IDC purchases. They almost always lose money, even 40 years later. Often they can’t even get half of their purchase price.

The problem was subtle. IDC grading was actually pretty good and they sold a lot of fairly high grade goods. They were real diamonds. IF- VVS. D-E-F. Popular weight points like 1.00 and 2.00cts. They were sealed in little plastic boxes and they mailed out a newsletter reporting on supposed wholesale prices. It was very official.



So what went wrong?



Weight, color, and clarity are not enough information. As everyone here knows, cut, which wasn’t mentioned at all on IDC reports, is a big deal and it was often umm, lacking in these stones. Fluorescence, which wasn’t mentioned either, is another glaring omission. In high grade stones, that can be a +/- 40% kind of topic, just for that.

• They were selling for high retail prices. Most stores didn’t, and still don’t, sell a lot of 2 carat D/IF’s. It was hard to shop them. Jewelers with sense want to stock things that they sell, and as mentioned, these are slow movers for most. It is definitely not like buying and selling bonds. Buying is easy. Selling is hard.
• In 1982, the market collapsed. Think bitcoin except it was these ‘investment grade’ diamonds. They lost about half the value and IDC evaporated into the ether.
• In the years since it was purchased, the market changed. Cut grading became a thing. Everything needs a cut grade now. The grading market changed too, and GIA became the dominant player.

Even all of that doesn’t sound so grim but it adds up.

Here’s an example from just a few months ago. I helped a client with a 1.00 VVS2/D/round brilliant/IDC. His Dad had bought it as an investment back in the 80’s.

That’s a pretty good stone, right? In the database here, that’ll cost about $10-$16k with GIA papers. Not bad. It needed to come out of the package and sent in to get a GIA pedigree. VVS2/E. That’s still pretty good, except the cut grade was Fair with strong blue fluro. That means a recut or no sale. $800, two fedex rides and 2 months later it’s 0.88cts. Still strong blue. That’s about $3.5k using the same database.

Retail.

OK, so what will a dealer pay now? Maybe $2k. Except that strong blue is still there. This won’t be an easy sell. This is going to sit in inventory for a while and it’s quite a bit of pain to go through this process. It’ll need a discount or it won’t move. The dealer bid will be more like $1.5k, and this is after spending $800 to make it saleable. $700 for a stone where the customer expected to go for north of $16k.

This stone was buried in paperwork. Certs, appraisals, you name it, all enshrined in a little folder in a safe deposit box to make it official. It was encased in plastic with a wax seal to prevent tampering. What could possibly go wrong?

I too experienced this era. Colored gemstones were being sold in the same way. With very fancy packaging and official looking documentation and inflated appraisals. The targets were generally professional people. People with some sophistication (and discretionary income) were the ones generally falling for these scams, based on the allure of investing in gems and the prospect of big profits.
(There were also some very liberal IRS rules governing charitable tax deductions at the time that fueled some of this activity)

I do have to say that I knew of some people who were investing in diamonds of good commercial quality in those days too, think 1ct GH VS. They were smart, developed an understanding of the market, and were plugged in to the right suppliers. They were buying and holding and allowing a strong market to create margin for them. I know because I was able to buy stones from them from time to time at prices lower than what my regular suppliers were charging. So it was possible then, and potentially the same today, for privates to invest successfully. That presupposes that the market is moving upward, which it was and had been very consistently in the earlier era. Today there is much more volatility and therefore much more risk, even for someone with the right connections and good access to the market.

 

[joey_v]

I too experienced this era. Colored gemstones were being sold in the same way. With very fancy packaging and official looking documentation and inflated appraisals. The targets were generally professional people. People with some sophistication (and discretionary income) were the ones generally falling for these scams, based on the allure of investing in gems and the prospect of big profits.
(There were also some very liberal IRS rules governing charitable tax deductions at the time that fueled some of this activity)

I do have to say that I knew of some people who were investing in diamonds of good commercial quality in those days too, think 1ct GH VS. They were smart, developed an understanding of the market, and were plugged in to the right suppliers. They were buying and holding and allowing a strong market to create margin for them. I know because I was able to buy stones from them from time to time at prices lower than what my regular suppliers were charging. So it was possible then, and potentially the same today, for privates to invest successfully. That presupposes that the market is moving upward, which it was and had been very consistently in the earlier era. Today there is much more volatility and therefore much more risk, even for someone with the right connections and good access to the market.

Is the volatility tied to the war or the lab grown competition?

 

[LLJsmom]

Is the volatility tied to the war or the lab grown competition?

I know you didn’t ask me but adding my 2c theory anyway. Technological advancements reduces production cost and will encourage more competition which drives prices down. And it’s a lab diamond. Theoretically you can custom order these, like off a menu, a specific color, clarity, size. There is no scarcity, at least no perceived scarcity. And the question of true scarcity of mined diamonds can be debated forever. Is the demand manufactured by the diamond industry or are diamonds actually that rare in nature, which I think they aren’t. However without the Russian supply of mined diamonds, total supply available to the US has decreased until another supplier can fill the gap. So that’s part of the reason mined diamond prices have gone up. I’m very curious about what @Texas Leaguer thinks.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Turns out that I offered my wife a natural 3.6 D VS2 ex ex faint flourescence pear for both her 3.08 F VS1 pear hpht and the 6.75 D VS2 oval hpht. Turns out she prefers having the oval as a secondary.

I'm glad she's keeping the oval.

 

[joey_v]

I'm glad she's keeping the oval.

Even the jeweler said yes. Keep that monster.