Questions about Clarity... VS1 v. VVS2

[hungarianhc]

Hi there!

I''m new to this whole "diamond buying" thing. I probably have about 3 to 6 months of time left before I need to actually make the purchase, but I have money saved and I want to learn as much as I can so that when I am ready to buy, I know what to get. I''ve been reading the forums here and I''ve learned so much! I do have a question about clarity, though...

I noticed when playing on Blue Nile''s site that if I ratchet the clarity up to VVS2 from VS1, the price goes up by almost 40% with the other settings I have set. How noticeable is this to the human eye? Is it even noticeable at all? My goal is to get the most carats I can for the $, but I know my girlfriend and she''s a nerd... so she is going to look closely at this thing and I don''t want her diamond to be "worse" than average... so... yeah... It would be nice if someone could clarity into perspective for me, especially the difference between VVS2 and VS1. THANKS!

 

[cindygenit]

Basically VS1 the inclusion is located in the outer edges of the diamond, VVS2 has smaller, less noticable inclusions in the middle of the table.

However, you''re pretty safe with VS1, she would have to look at the diamond with a loupe to notice the flaws. Without it, a well cut VS1 will look like a sparkling ball of fire to her.

 

[stone-cold11]

VS1 is defined as very difficult to see inclusion using a 10x loupe table by a professional grader. So unless you have superhuman eye, you will not see anything table up at VS1 and above.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I think you're fine with VS2 or better. I personally prefer the VS grades over VVS because I can't see spending the extra money for something you can't see with the naked eye. In the case of VS1 versus VVS2, it's often tough to tell the difference with a 10x loupe. Why spend the extra money, unless you're looking for a "mind clean" stone.

 

[Upgradable]

Date: 8/17/2009 9:15:11 PM
Author: cindygenit
Basically VS1 the inclusion is located in the outer edges of the diamond, VVS2 has smaller, less noticable inclusions in the middle of the table.

However, you''re pretty safe with VS1, she would have to look at the diamond with a loupe to notice the flaws. Without it, a well cut VS1 will look like a sparkling ball of fire to her.

Location has absolutely nothing to do with the clarity rating.

 

[oneandahalfrock]

Date: 8/17/2009 9:22:17 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I think you''re fine with VS2 or better. I personally prefer the VS grades over VVS because I can''t see spending the extra money for something you can''t see with the naked eye. In the case of VS1 versus VVS2, it''s often tough to tell the difference with a 10x loupe. Why spend the extra money, unless you''re looking for a ''mind clean'' stone.

I think Richard summed it up best- you aren''t going to see any difference, so why pay the premium? You can either save the difference, spend more on the setting, or my favorite, get a bigger diamond
Mind if I ask what your budget is looking like...?

 

[oneandahalfrock]

Date: 8/17/2009 9:08:31 PM
Author:hungarianhc
My goal is to get the most carats I can for the $, but I know my girlfriend and she''s a nerd... so she is going to look closely at this thing and I don''t want her diamond to be ''worse'' than average

Regarding the worse than average, given how many engagement rings come from maul stores or chains, I''d say average-ish clarity is in the I-range... anything above SI will be well above average hun

 

[cindygenit]

Sorry upgradeable, if my info is mistaken. I heard that from a jeweller. I might have mis-understood him though. He told me that if the inclusion can be viewed from a top view, the clarity grading is VVS2. I then assumed that if the inclusion were on the outer edges, it would be VVS1. But that is not true, VVS1 means the inclusion can be viewed from the bottom of the diamond.

Not sure if this applies to VS2 and VS1 grading as well.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/17/2009 11:32:11 PM
Author: cindygenit
Sorry upgradeable, if my info is mistaken. I heard that from a jeweller. I might have mis-understood him though. He told me that if the inclusion can be viewed from a top view, the clarity grading is VVS2. I then assumed that if the inclusion were on the outer edges, it would be VVS1. But that is not true, VVS1 means the inclusion can be viewed from the bottom of the diamond.

Not sure if this applies to VS2 and VS1 grading as well.

I am not sure who this jeweler is, or where he got his information, but I have never heard this in all my years in the business. If you were the jeweler posting this I would be rude to you as you should know better, but since you are the innocent victim I am being polite. (I hope.)

Some inclusions may be ridiculously hard to find even with a scope, but whether you can see them from the top or the bottom has nothing to do with the grade. I recommend that you take everything this jeweler told you with mountains of salt, a grain will not be sufficient.

Actually the grade VVS1 stands for very very slightly included. The inclusions will be very small, usually pinpoints and difficult for an expert observer to find with a 10x loupe. (Most of us cheat and use a scope to find these things.) VVS2 is the same only slightly more or larger inclusions, also difficult to find. As the inclusions get larger or more numerous or a combination of the two we slide down the scale to VS1 through I3, by which time they are so obnoxious and visible that the diamond will sometimes resemble frozen spit. You can see these in the Zales 2ct bracelets for $399 every Christmas, although the ones that they show you in the ads are very nice and cost one heck of a lot more.

I think most of the vendors here have some great tutorials on their sites to help you understand this more completely, and I am sure that there are some great tutorials on this here too.

Wink

 

[cindygenit]

Date: 8/17/2009 11:58:04 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/17/2009 11:32:11 PM
Author: cindygenit
Sorry upgradeable, if my info is mistaken. I heard that from a jeweller. I might have mis-understood him though. He told me that if the inclusion can be viewed from a top view, the clarity grading is VVS2. I then assumed that if the inclusion were on the outer edges, it would be VVS1. But that is not true, VVS1 means the inclusion can be viewed from the bottom of the diamond.

Not sure if this applies to VS2 and VS1 grading as well.

I am not sure who this jeweler is, or where he got his information, but I have never heard this in all my years in the business. If you were the jeweler posting this I would be rude to you as you should know better, but since you are the innocent victim I am being polite. (I hope.)

Some inclusions may be ridiculously hard to find even with a scope, but whether you can see them from the top or the bottom has nothing to do with the grade. I recommend that you take everything this jeweler told you with mountains of salt, a grain will not be sufficient.

Actually the grade VVS1 stands for very very slightly included. The inclusions will be very small, usually pinpoints and difficult for an expert observer to find with a 10x loupe. (Most of us cheat and use a scope to find these things.) VVS2 is the same only slightly more or larger inclusions, also difficult to find. As the inclusions get larger or more numerous or a combination of the two we slide down the scale to VS1 through I3, by which time they are so obnoxious and visible that the diamond will sometimes resemble frozen spit. You can see these in the Zales 2ct bracelets for $399 every Christmas, although the ones that they show you in the ads are very nice and cost one heck of a lot more.

I think most of the vendors here have some great tutorials on their sites to help you understand this more completely, and I am sure that there are some great tutorials on this here too.

Wink

Once again, just trying to help. I have read this information on some sites. In fact, read this info from a PS vendor:

http://www.abazias.com/DiamondEducation/articles/What-is-Clarity.asp

Feel free to email them and tell them how wrong they are and they should know better than to mislead us innocent victims.

 

[hungarianhc]

Thank you so much for all of the responses! This was extremely helpful. I know there are a million diamond guide sites out there that i''ve read, but you were all very helpful in laying it out in plain english!

Date: 8/17/2009 11:23:52 PM
Author: oneandahalfrock
Mind if I ask what your budget is looking like...?

I''m looking to spend between around $18K for the entire ring after everything. I don''t want a charge bigger than $18K to my bank account. I know that she wants a narrow pave diamond band and a diamond, so fairly simple. For the money, it looks like I can get about a 1.5 carat round diamond, F color, VS1, ideal cut... does that seem about right? It seems that if I went to a G colored diamond, I could get about 20% more carat for the price...
Am I in the right ballpark? She definitely wants a round diamond. THANKS!

 

[hungarianhc]

oh and also haha i know she wants a six prong setting... which annoyingly enough... seem less common than 4 prong settings, even though in my opinion they don''t look that much different

 

[bgray]

i have a vs2 that is completely eye-clean. i wanted a large stone and was upgrading from a vvs2 and it ended up being a meaningless metric. i was lucky to find the vs2--it kept the price down enormously

 

[FB.]

Unless you're obsessive, there's little point going up to VVS grades when VS grades nearly always look the same to the naked eye.

Some people obsess about being flawless - yet they ignore that the diamond has the colour-tint impurities unless it's a D. They also don't realise that even flawless does not mean "100% free from inclusions" - it simply means that none are visible with 10x magnification (hence the term "loupe-clean" - clean with the standard 10x loupe). With higher magnification, even a flawless stone may show inclusions.....and even some lab-cert D's may have a lab-detectable trace of colour if they happened to sit on the borderline grade between D/E.

I usually look for stones with VS clarity and although a few people claim to have seen occasional VS2's that aren't eye clean, I have yet to see one (as defined by eye clean at 10-12 inches).

 

[Amethyste]

Date: 8/17/2009 9:25:42 PM
Author: Upgradable

Date: 8/17/2009 9:15:11 PM
Author: cindygenit
Basically VS1 the inclusion is located in the outer edges of the diamond, VVS2 has smaller, less noticable inclusions in the middle of the table.

However, you''re pretty safe with VS1, she would have to look at the diamond with a loupe to notice the flaws. Without it, a well cut VS1 will look like a sparkling ball of fire to her.

Location has absolutely nothing to do with the clarity rating.

I am confused here as well, my pear is a VVS2 and the inclusion(s) are on the outer part of my diamond near the girdle...

 

[FB.]

I've also heard that the inclusion location (under the table or near the girdle) is how 1 and 2 of each grade get differentiated. But that appears to be mis-information.
Location may play a part in the grading, since a medium-size inclusion might be eye-visible under the table, but eye-clean when near the girdle. An inclusion might be SI2 if under the table, but SI1 if near the girdle.
That's possibly where the mis-information has arisen.

If it helps.......

I have two VS1 diamonds (and my 7.5x/15x loupe) here in front of me.

One has about five small crystal inclusions under the middle of the table and no inclusions anywhere else.
The other has no inclusions under the table, but has a couple of small feathers around the girdle, along with a small crystal.

Comparing them to a VS2 that is also here in front of me....

This VS2 has about twice as many inclusions under the table and they are about twice the size of the VS1 above. The inclusions are not visible at 10-12 inches but can just about be detected as a minute black speck - a kind of "is that something or not?" - by sharp eyes at 5-6 inches, if you know where to look, in good lighting, and if you get the angle correct.

 

[WinkHPD]

There seems to be a good bit of confusion about this. Perhaps this can help. It would be nice if the pictures that accompanied this were here also, but I think the verbiage will suffice to help clarify what is being discussed.

The C''s: Clarity

Part of the romance of a natural diamond is that it came from completely unique rough crystal, unlike any other. Nearly all diamonds have natural characteristics that formed over millions of years, called inclusions. Most are microscopic and need magnification to detect. Others may be visible with the naked eye. In no two diamonds will they be the same.

Clarity grades are assigned by examining the finished diamond face-up at 10X magnification in neutral lighting. When strictly graded, F and IF indicate the diamond is Flawless, or Internally Flawless; revealing no inclusions at this magnification. VVS1 and VVS2 indicate Very Very Slight inclusions; only the most minute imperfections were detected. VS1 and VS2 imply Very Slight inclusions; the grader saw only minor characteristics. SI1 and SI2 grades indicate the diamond was Slightly Included; inclusions were notable under 10X magnification. I1 means Included; characteristics were obvious to the grader when magnified. I2 and I3 grades are reserved for diamonds with extremely obvious inclusions and/or durability issues caused by their clarity features.

Common Grading Standards

The world’s largest labs are soft on clarity. Diamonds in most chain stores, malls and discount outlets may have more obvious inclusions for their grade than diamonds sent to the stricter labs. This can give casual shoppers a false and negative first impression about certain clarity grades.

AGS and GIA Clarity Standards

The world’s best diamonds are sent to the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) and American Gem Society (AGS). These labs employ strict and consistent standards. Diamonds with AGS and GIA reports command a higher premium and hold their value better than diamonds from softer labs. No two diamonds are alike, but when AGS and GIA standards are applied it is commonplace for diamonds SI1 and higher to have no visible inclusions face-up to the average vision in normal lighting.

Cut Influences Clarity Appearance

Since the goal of most cutters is to maximize carat weight from a piece of rough the “lay” of inclusions is often secondary to producing the greatest possible yield. However, when the cutter’s priority is cut quality he can plan the “lay” of a grade-setting inclusion to reduce its face-up visibility. It may be impossible to omit primary characteristics (and the resulting clarity grade) but a skilled cutter can orient the rough so that they become transparent or less visible. This is particularly true for the SI2 and I1 clarity grades.

Nowhere in my original education at GIA nor in any of my follow up continuing education studies has any mention ever been made about whether or not the inclusions being visible only from the top or only from the bottom being a grade setting characteristic. Diamonds are graded from the top, although we may often look at a diamond from the side or bottom to help us locate a small inclusion, and then know where to search to find it from the top.

Wink

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/18/2009 2:05:43 AM
Author: hungarianhc
Thank you so much for all of the responses! This was extremely helpful. I know there are a million diamond guide sites out there that i've read, but you were all very helpful in laying it out in plain english!

Date: 8/17/2009 11:23:52 PM
Author: oneandahalfrock
Mind if I ask what your budget is looking like...?

I'm looking to spend between around $18K for the entire ring after everything. I don't want a charge bigger than $18K to my bank account. I know that she wants a narrow pave diamond band and a diamond, so fairly simple. For the money, it looks like I can get about a 1.5 carat round diamond, F color, VS1, ideal cut... does that seem about right? It seems that if I went to a G colored diamond, I could get about 20% more carat for the price...
Am I in the right ballpark? She definitely wants a round diamond. THANKS!

I would suggest going with the G if you'd like more size. A well cut (key) G is still going to face up incredibly white, it's safe for most shapes and sizes for all but the most color sensitive people. You will not see any warmth, no worries. Here's my 1.4 G VS1 (scroll past the studs), that I can't even find the inclusions with a loupe.

You might also consider VS2's, that would help even more with the size.

 

[Upgradable]

Thanks for clarifying Wink!! You''re such a terrific guy!!

 

[strmrdr]

under table vs off to the side

The same size and shape inclusion under the table will often be a lower clarity grade than the same inclusion off to the side.
Inclusions in the center are easier to see with a 10x loupe.

The difference between IF and vvs1 can be an inclusion only visible from the bottom.
That does not mean that all vvs1 will only have bottom visible inclusions.

 

[freefly]

Thank you for the clarification, Wink. I think your response was brilliant. I too, took the diamond grading course at GIA, and was told to grade clarity with the stone face up. I also remember using keywords when grading, now I forgot what they were... Something to the effect of minute to obvious. There were also no rules as to whether the inclusion was under the table or not, although in most cases the higher grade did have the inclusions to the side.

It was such a fun class, I wish I had time to take more!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2009 10:24:39 AM
Author: strmrdr
under table vs off to the side

The same size and shape inclusion under the table will often be a lower clarity grade than the same inclusion off to the side.
Inclusions in the center are easier to see with a 10x loupe.

The difference between IF and vvs1 can be an inclusion only visible from the bottom.
That does not mean that all vvs1 will only have bottom visible inclusions.

I think this has lead to one of the all time greatests myths in the industry as previously referred to by Paul Slegers. Inclusions in the center of the diamond are often easier to see with a loupe than the same inclusion on the side, which leads us to assume that it is also easier to see with the eye.

However, in a well cut round brilliant cut diamond that is often not true. When we are using a loupe we have effectively blocked out most of, it not all of the direct light into the diamond, that which would appear red in an ASET. So what we are seeing is the green areas of indirect light, which is much less intense than direct light, and also the now huge areas of obstruction, which would appear blue in the ASET.

Thus when we pull back and are again looking with the eye rather than the loupe, the brilliants and scintillation of the diamond will often completely mask inclusions that can be easily seen with the loupe and even in many diamonds if they were to the side of the diamond.

It is an interesting phenominum, and one that I think warrents further research to determine if this is really a prevalent reality, or only a perception that some of us have from the relatively few gems that we have looked at with this in mind.

Just another interesting twist on my path through life as a gemologist who loves diamonds. What once I thought I knew is challenged and the challenge makes so much sense that I now know I do not know for sure but what I thought I knew I know is probably known in error. Goodness I love this job, it changes every time I turn around and always keeps me on my toes!

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Hi Wink I am aware of that which is why I said with a 10x loupe.
I am not 100% sure I agree with Paul on that, if true I don''t think it is true 100% of the time but it may be true some of the time or maybe even a lot of the time.
My visual inspections haven''t been extensive enough to say for sure and they have been mixed depending on the particular diamonds I was looking at.
The hardest problem is finding 2 diamonds with similar inclusions to compare.

 

[FB.]

Wink

A couple of phrases come to mind....

"....An expert in his field is someone who knows how to avoid making the worst mistakes....."

".....Experience is knowing what you can get away with......"

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 8/18/2009 10:24:39 AM
Author: strmrdr
under table vs off to the side


The same size and shape inclusion under the table will often be a lower clarity grade than the same inclusion off to the side.

Inclusions in the center are easier to see with a 10x loupe.

I have found this NOT to be the case.
GIA will grade the diamond''s clarity based on the presence of imperfection- NOT it''s visibility. Therefore the placement of an inclusion ( unless it breaks the skin) does not impact the clarity grade....in my experience.
That''s why we can find eye clean I1''s and non eye clean VS2''s

Personally, I love IF''s- however I also love SI and even eye clean I1 diamonds due to the price.

 

[Stephan]

Date: 8/18/2009 3:03:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 8/18/2009 10:24:39 AM
Author: strmrdr
under table vs off to the side

The same size and shape inclusion under the table will often be a lower clarity grade than the same inclusion off to the side.

Inclusions in the center are easier to see with a 10x loupe.

I have found this NOT to be the case.
GIA will grade the diamond''s clarity based on the presence of imperfection- NOT it''s visibility. Therefore the placement of an inclusion ( unless it breaks the skin) does not impact the clarity grade....in my experience.
That''s why we can find eye clean I1''s and non eye clean VS2''s

I don''t know about this, but I find it interesting.

 

[glitterata]

Date: 8/18/2009 3:03:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 8/18/2009 10:24:39 AM

Author: strmrdr

under table vs off to the side



The same size and shape inclusion under the table will often be a lower clarity grade than the same inclusion off to the side.


Inclusions in the center are easier to see with a 10x loupe.

I have found this NOT to be the case.

GIA will grade the diamond''s clarity based on the presence of imperfection- NOT it''s visibility. Therefore the placement of an inclusion ( unless it breaks the skin) does not impact the clarity grade....in my experience.

That''s why we can find eye clean I1''s and non eye clean VS2''s


Personally, I love IF''s- however I also love SI and even eye clean I1 diamonds due to the price.

What about inclusions that are positioned so that they reflect around, giving the face-up impression of a ton of identical inclusions all through the diamond? Isn''t that a case where sometimes the position of the inclusion affects the clarity grade?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Me too Stephan!

Sometimes we are looking at an SI2, and it seems impossible to find the imperfection!

Other times, it jumps right out at you.

Another important aspect: The grading is cumulative.
That is to say, an SI2 can have one large inclusion- or it could have 3 or 4 VS sized inclusions.
In many cases, these dispersed SI2''s are the ones that are eye clean.
But just yesterday I was looking at a fairly sizable feather which was very easy to see from the bottom of the stone ( an SI2 clarity) but close to impossible to see from the top.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 8/18/2009 3:35:02 PM
Author: glitterata

Date: 8/18/2009 3:03:37 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 8/18/2009 10:24:39 AM


Author: strmrdr


under table vs off to the side




The same size and shape inclusion under the table will often be a lower clarity grade than the same inclusion off to the side.



Inclusions in the center are easier to see with a 10x loupe.

I have found this NOT to be the case.


GIA will grade the diamond''s clarity based on the presence of imperfection- NOT it''s visibility. Therefore the placement of an inclusion ( unless it breaks the skin) does not impact the clarity grade....in my experience.


That''s why we can find eye clean I1''s and non eye clean VS2''s



Personally, I love IF''s- however I also love SI and even eye clean I1 diamonds due to the price.

What about inclusions that are positioned so that they reflect around, giving the face-up impression of a ton of identical inclusions all through the diamond? Isn''t that a case where sometimes the position of the inclusion affects the clarity grade?

Awesome questions Glitterata!
This surely is a complex subject.
I have an idea about this one, but to be sure I''ll put a call in to one of my contacts at GIA to ask about spots that reflect.

 

[Stephan]

Hi David!
I was a big VVS buyer before.
I still love them, but I try to be less superstitious about inclusions and I try to believe other won''t see them. My wallet will be happier.
It was often easy for me to spot inclusions in SI1 diamonds, and it happened sometimes for VS2''s.
I''ve just bought a VS2 at JamesAllen.com.
I''ll tell you if I see something with my naked eye once it will be here, but I must understand most people won''t see anything.