Quit a friendship due to political/social issues?

[galeteia]

I'd be done.

I'm not going to rehash all the ridiculous garbage I overhear living in west Texas, but suffice to say, I have no friends here I would choose to hang out with. I am polite and friendly with many of my coworkers but have learned not to socialize with them outside of work. Sooner or later, every friend I have had has said something outrageously offensive and that was it for me. I can't be friends with someone who thinks that way. It offends every fibre of my being.

 

[marymm]

The problem with a close friend saying something like that is I would lose respect for her. For me, once the respect is gone, a healthy close relationship cannot be maintained. I would naturally distance myself and let the relationship fade.

Also, birds of a feather do flock together. I wouldn't want other people thinking I held the same views as her. Diversity amoung our friends is a good thing, but not when views are held that I so vehemently object to and makes me question her sanity.

This is exactly how I feel.

I certainly do have friends who are conservative and friends who are liberal and friends who are apolitical but worship the god of sit-coms - but we share important core principles like "respect humanity" "value education" "pluralism is A-OK"

I can't choose my co-workers or my neighbors or, for that matter, my family - but I can and do choose my friends to enrich and broaden my world, not to make it smaller and meaner.

 

[iheartscience]

I'm gonna say this & then i'm done. You're buying some half truths. Yes, in the rural south (I live there too) there are throwbacks; you can find nuts everywhere on any subject. Yes, there are racists in cities too. They are far the minority now, in the country as a whole. No, it is not perfect. News flash: it will never be perfect. But my rural neighborhood is a good example of present times: racially mixed -- black, white, Asian; Christian, Jewish & Whatever, even atheist. Middle income. Ages from young parents to retired people. Neighbors are close & friendly. And I have never, not once, heard even a disparaging tone of voice from anyone about race. I have listened for it, as a curious Yankee. Not. one. time. Including about a mixed-race couple living here. None of us even mention race; we talk about the people as individuals. I see kids getting off the school bus, bringing friends home with them, chattering away as they run up driveways -- and they are all colors.

I am insulted for myself and the vast number of good, hardworking, generous Americans across this vast continent when they are painted with the brush of racism, bleeding off from a few determined Confederates. It isn't true. It isn't fair. It isn't right.

Tea party people are concerned about the fiscal ruin facing this country and the intrusion of government into every part of their lives. That is their outlook and they're entitled to express it. They are worried; they are not racist. Black people go to these rallies too. Most of the objectionable signs have turned out to be carried by opposing groups, knowing the press will pick that up. There has not been ONE arrest for violence at any tea party rally -- compare that to left-leaning ones. (The only time a dust-up happened, it was a political foe who started beating on a tea partier -- that is on tape.)

The myth about someone -- I can't even remember who -- being called "boy" and the N word by tea party folks: It was at a big rally. There were thousands there with videocams, cell phones, reporters by the zillion recording everything. A website owner offered $100,000 for ANY recording of this happening. And no one, nobody, came up with one.

Thing, you didn't answer my question. Let me re-state. If you disagree with Herman Cain, elected or not, does that make you racist, if those who don't like Obama automatically are?

How racist is it to expect a President of the U.S. not to have to face the opposition & disagreement that every other one has endured throughout our history, because he is black?

Ten-Four on this subject, whew.

Goodness! Where exactly did I say that you and all your friends are racist? I specifically stated that although there are obviously legitimate political and policy complaints made against President Obama by Republicans, the tone of many of the complaints about President Obama are racially tinged. I specifically didn't say "Everyone who dislikes President Obama is racist." Denying that racism is alive and well in the U.S. just because your neighborhood is diverse and friendly is just silly. Have you ever asked any of your African-American neighbors if they've ever been discriminated against? I'd be willing to bet they'd all say yes.

And I'm sorry, but suggesting that opposition groups were the ones holding racist signs at tea party rallies and shouting racist things is just laughable. That's easier for you to believe than the idea that racists do exist, and that those racists did indeed attend a tea party rally? Okay. It's also interesting to me that the tea party crowd wasn't nearly as "scared" when George W. Bush was giving out unfunded tax cuts, running up the deficit with 2 unfunded wars and bailing out the banks with TARP.

And if Herman Cain were elected president and Democrats started carrying racist signs at Democratic rallies and shouting racist things about him, and if Democratic party leaders started emailing around racist jokes and photos of Herman Cain, I would indeed think they were racist. And if I partook in those activities, that would also make me racist. Satisfied?

 

[packrat]

Not to interrupt but, I don't get the "boy" thing. Someone called him boy instead of Mr. President? Sorry..I don't pay attention to a lot of that stuff so that one lost me. My grampa never called anyone by name, if they were male they were "Boy". Jesus himself could descend from the Heavens and grampa would've called him Boy.

 

[JewelFreak]

Denying that racism is alive and well in the U.S. just because your neighborhood is diverse and friendly is just silly.

One more answer, Thing, so I don't look too (?) hysterical: My point here was that my neighborhood is not anything unusual in any way; it's like a jillion spread across the country. If you look back, I said there are racists & nuts anywhere. Rather than pockets of non-racists, as you seem to imply my neighborhood is, in a sea of prejudiced Americans, I think it's the other way around. It didn't used to be, no. It will never be perfect -- we're dealing with humanity here.

suggesting that opposition groups were the ones holding racist signs at tea party rallies and shouting racist things is just laughable.

When you see people exiting a bus marked "SEIU #32," some carrying signs bearing racist slogans & pics of Obama with horns, etc., it's a pretty logical conclusion. I didn't make it up.

As for Bush, this stuff didn't start the day Obama was elected (in fact, our problems are more the fault of Congress than the pres.). The first TARP angered a lot of people. Many were horrified at a great number of his bad decisions. Me included.

Another example of how we're being lied to & why I take NOTHING at face value: ABC News had a clip at one of the first big tea party rallies. It showed a man's back with a rifle slung across it -- "violent threatening people," they reported, pretty scary. I found the entire clip online. Right after where ABC cut it, the camera pulled back to show the whole scene: the guy with the rifle was a black man wearing a t-shirt with SEIU across it, standing at the edge of a crowd.

 

[CherryBlossom]

woah! I had no idea that this thread got so active after I posted it. Again, due to end of year exams and school stuff I will be coming and going for the next few weeks.

Wellllll... I finally sat down and discussed my issues w/ her last tonight and I tried to be delicate about it but she got defensive pretty quickly. At first started to say that saying the "N" word was a slip of the tongue, I felt her trying to skirt her away around it so I called on it and said that it's an odd slip of the tongue, why bring up someones race as a way to insult them?

after a few minutes of back and forth about that she began to tell me this sob story of how some African American guy tried to her steal her laptop during senior year of college and how she had valid reason to not feel safe around "them" - she was going on and on and I was trying to listen and not talk over her but I couldn't take it anymore. I snapped and literally said "What is wrong with you?' do you know that a white guy broke the windows of my car and stole a bunch of stuff from my car. Another white guy cornered me at a party once and didn't take his hands off of me until someone else helped me. I've been harassed and annoyed by people of various races, that's NO EXCUSE to a) call people of a race "them" and 2) assume that "they" are all going to act the same way 3) be racist.

I reminded her that she's a student of science and it's a shame that she's allowed her supposed open mind to become so clouded and closed off.

of course these comments lead to her to becoming even more defensive and she said the N word all over again, claiming that if it's ok for Chris Rock to say it than it should be okay for her to say it. I called her on that too, pointing out that although it's inflammatory language, for many within the African American community it's also re-appropriation of the word. I attempted to explain white privilege to her and how it's exhibited in this country but she didn't want to hear it. She said that white Americans are always targeted and demonized, that they are a group who has no privileges because our society is so PC. She exhibited a vile form of DELUSIONAL hate that I have never seen before. It's like she was keeping all of this inside of her this entire time. Her views were all mixed up w/ various types of crap about politics and cultural anecdotes. She remained calm but everything she was staying stung me. I have no idea what happened to her or why, but frankly that's no longer my problem. It's her problem and she has to live w/ the alienating hell that she's created for herself. She didn't admit to doing a single thing wrong and kept telling me that I was just judging her and not being as open minded as I pretend to be. She kept saying "do you want to stifle me? why do people have to be so PC and afraid of pointing out basic things we all know to be true about race." - and I had to point blank ask her "and what truth are those?" to which she replied "we are different socially and culturally. I am not a racist because I do think that there things that blacks are better than other races, but there are clear differences and we're afraid to admit it them because our culture is so PC." - Once again I sat there dumbfounded. On the matter of Obama, she said that it didn't matter if he was Muslim, so I pressed her again and said "so why did you even bring it up?" and she said "because he is lying about it to the American public and we deserve to know" -- and I said "why do we need to know about his faith? that goes against our nations principles of separation of church and state, and I am sorry but I think that what you're implying has racist undertones not just toward Obama as an African American but also towards Muslim. You're saying that Muslims are questionable because of their faith"

I was so disgusted by ever aspect of the conversation and furthermore, I was also mad at myself for missing the warning signs that she may have exhibited previously. She just kept telling me that I had allowed my "PC rhetoric to cloud my views and that I was now trying to tell her what she had a right to say." so I looked her square in the eyes and told her that she had a right to say whatever she wanted, but that I wouldn't put up with her saying horrid things about complete strangers simply based on the color of their skin when she's around me. I said that her words didn't just hurt the individuals she was talking about, but it hurt me personally.

At this point she was really mad, and she had to get one last dig in before walking way, so she brought up the fact that I am Middle Eastern and marrying outside of my race. She said "don't you think it's a bit ironic that you have such issues with race, but you're the one that can't stand your own race, so you are marrying someone outside of your race. Clearly it's because you recognize that there's something wrong with men in your culture and you see something better about our culture" - when she said that, any feelings of loss that I felt for the friendship just washed away. I told her she needed help, that she was absolutely clueless about how love works and that one can't help who they fall in love or connect with... our president's parents are a perfect example of that. They fell in love w/ one another at a time when their union was against the law in many states. I told her that my own relationship w/ a man who is American/white had nothing to do with me rejecting my race. In fact there are many men with a Middle Eastern background whom I admire... my father and brothers being just some of them. I think that any woman (of any race) would be lucky to get married to one of my brothers, because my parents raised them to treat women w/ respect.

I didn't know what else to say. She dismissed everything that I said and the conversation ended with me very upset and w/ her telling me that I had hurt her so badly w/ my words. That I was accusing her of being something that she's not and she felt misunderstood. She victimized herself the entire time and I want no part of it.

 

[chemgirl]

So you tried to talk to her and she confirmed everything you were worried about. Its a shame, but at least now you know where she stands and you can move away from the friendship with fewer regrets. That must have been a tough conversation to have. She seems very misguided and I feel sorry for her.

 

[Autumnovember]

I see issues with both your thinking and her thinking and now it makes perfect sense why you responded the way you did to in my previous thread (which by the way, I responded to). In that thread, you read something I wrote, assumed what you wanted to assume, and then told me you couldn't "take my posts seriously anymore," because you couldn't believe what I said. You made those assumptions before I even explained what I wrote and what I meant by what I said. So, who knows if you didn't actually act the same way with your friend because if you did, I can definitely see why she could have felt misunderstood/victimized by you.

If you can't accept the way she thinks about certain topics then having that last conversation with her was probably the best thing that you could have done----it solidified that you don't want her in your life and you can walk away in confidence with your decision.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Basically, I like cold hard facts, which is precisely why I don't watch Fox.

I don't watch Fox either. In fact, the only news source I trust is The Onion.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I would dump that friend if she's ranting racial comments!

I've had to discontinue relationships with relatives b/c of similiar. Very overly religious family members TEXT MESSAGE me pictures of Jesus. I'm like come on, let me believe what I want so I have to ignore them. My grandmother *yelled at me* for watching a Michael Moore movie. Now she wonders why I don't call her. Ugh - and she text messages me too, now. And she uses "u" and instead of "you." Her: "What are u up 2?" Me: "I'm off worshipping Satin." oops, damn you auto correct. Grandma, that was suppose to be "satan."

Friendwise, only one was specifically dumped...the kid told my son he would be going to hell for his beliefs. Um, my son is a buddist.

 

[partgypsy]

That's sad, but at least you had a dialog and actually know how she feels, versus wondering if you misunderstood. My sister sounds a lot like your former friend, not for race but males versus females (mysogyny). She can get started, by something in the conversation, or something she read, and will go on and on about rape statistics in the US, child prostitution and slavery in asian, wife burning in India, honor killing in Mideast, female subjudation and discrimination in all its forms, etc where she just really gets worked up to a personal degree. Now I think it's fine to feel moved about some social problem, when it gets you to the point that 1/2 of the human race is out of hand demonized it's time to take a step back. I think that some people may be more prone to developing these intense prejudices, whether it be for jews, gays, blacks, males, females, etc. When it's to that degree it colors their perception of everything and prevents them seeing at people as individuals, which I'm sure is how they would like to be treated.

 

[rosetta]

woah! I had no idea that this thread got so active after I posted it. Again, due to end of year exams and school stuff I will be coming and going for the next few weeks.

Wellllll... I finally sat down and discussed my issues w/ her last tonight and I tried to be delicate about it but she got defensive pretty quickly. At first started to say that saying the "N" word was a slip of the tongue, I felt her trying to skirt her away around it so I called on it and said that it's an odd slip of the tongue, why bring up someones race as a way to insult them?

after a few minutes of back and forth about that she began to tell me this sob story of how some African American guy tried to her steal her laptop during senior year of college and how she had valid reason to not feel safe around "them" - she was going on and on and I was trying to listen and not talk over her but I couldn't take it anymore. I snapped and literally said "What is wrong with you?' do you know that a white guy broke the windows of my car and stole a bunch of stuff from my car. Another white guy cornered me at a party once and didn't take his hands off of me until someone else helped me. I've been harassed and annoyed by people of various races, that's NO EXCUSE to a) call people of a race "them" and 2) assume that "they" are all going to act the same way 3) be racist.

I reminded her that she's a student of science and it's a shame that she's allowed her supposed open mind to become so clouded and closed off.

of course these comments lead to her to becoming even more defensive and she said the N word all over again, claiming that if it's ok for Chris Rock to say it than it should be okay for her to say it. I called her on that too, pointing out that although it's inflammatory language, for many within the African American community it's also re-appropriation of the word. I attempted to explain white privilege to her and how it's exhibited in this country but she didn't want to hear it. She said that white Americans are always targeted and demonized, that they are a group who has no privileges because our society is so PC. She exhibited a vile form of DELUSIONAL hate that I have never seen before. It's like she was keeping all of this inside of her this entire time. Her views were all mixed up w/ various types of crap about politics and cultural anecdotes. She remained calm but everything she was staying stung me. I have no idea what happened to her or why, but frankly that's no longer my problem. It's her problem and she has to live w/ the alienating hell that she's created for herself. She didn't admit to doing a single thing wrong and kept telling me that I was just judging her and not being as open minded as I pretend to be. She kept saying "do you want to stifle me? why do people have to be so PC and afraid of pointing out basic things we all know to be true about race." - and I had to point blank ask her "and what truth are those?" to which she replied "we are different socially and culturally. I am not a racist because I do think that there things that blacks are better than other races, but there are clear differences and we're afraid to admit it them because our culture is so PC." - Once again I sat there dumbfounded. On the matter of Obama, she said that it didn't matter if he was Muslim, so I pressed her again and said "so why did you even bring it up?" and she said "because he is lying about it to the American public and we deserve to know" -- and I said "why do we need to know about his faith? that goes against our nations principles of separation of church and state, and I am sorry but I think that what you're implying has racist undertones not just toward Obama as an African American but also towards Muslim. You're saying that Muslims are questionable because of their faith"

I was so disgusted by ever aspect of the conversation and furthermore, I was also mad at myself for missing the warning signs that she may have exhibited previously. She just kept telling me that I had allowed my "PC rhetoric to cloud my views and that I was now trying to tell her what she had a right to say." so I looked her square in the eyes and told her that she had a right to say whatever she
wanted, but that I wouldn't put up with her saying horrid things about complete strangers simply based on the color of their skin when she's around me. I said that her words didn't just hurt the individuals she was talking about, but it hurt me personally.

At this point she was really mad, and she had to get one last dig in before walking way, so she brought up the fact that I am Middle Eastern and marrying outside of my race. She said "don't you think it's a bit ironic that you have such issues with race, but you're the one that can't stand your own race, so you are marrying someone outside of your race. Clearly it's because you recognize that there's something wrong with men in your culture and you see something better about our culture" - when she said that, any feelings of loss that I felt for the friendship just washed away. I told her she needed help, that she was absolutely clueless about how love works and that one can't help who they fall in love or connect with... our president's parents are a perfect example of that. They fell in love w/ one another at a time when their union was against the law in many states. I told her that my own relationship w/ a man who is American/white had nothing to do with me rejecting my race. In fact there are many men with a Middle Eastern background whom I admire... my father and brothers being just some of them. I think that any woman (of any race) would be lucky to get married to one of my brothers, because my parents raised them to treat women w/ respect.

I didn't know what else to say. She dismissed everything that I said and the conversation ended with me very upset and w/ her telling me that I had hurt her so badly w/ my words. That I was accusing her of being something that she's not and she felt misunderstood. She victimized herself the entire time and I want no part of it.

She reacted completely in the vein of a racist who is trying to justify their views. Her reasons for using the N word are laughable but they are very valid in her own mind. She's conflating issues left right and centre. Good try but she's convinced she's a victim and an entire race is to blame for that. How can you argue with that kind of "logic"?

 

[galeteia]

She's not from West Texas, is she? That's the exact same sort of garbage I hear from 99.99% of the population around me.

Her justifications made me laugh, because it was either that or cry. Sorry to hear your ex-friend is a nutcase. Love how she tried to defend herself by saving that 'blacks do some things better than other races' as if it's not racist if you are generalizing people based on their race if it is a positive generalization.

Edit: not even going to touch how one incident made her afraid of "them". Them, lady? Really? Does she think "they" have some sort of 'personal item theft' hardwired into their DNA? ARGH. It's so frustrating to be around people like that - it's like skirting the edges of a logic vacuum. Now I am off to work, where I will collect another dayful of gems like the ones uttered by your former friend.

 

[janinegirly]

I have never had a close friend that was racist, and I would probably not get along very well with anyone who was because I have adopted a child of another race and have friends who have adopted children of other races.

But I hope y'all aren't equating racism with any particular political view. Disliking a president does not have to have anything to do with racism. I have friends who are republican, democrat, independent, etc. I respect their views as they respect mine, and we just don't talk about politics a lot. We talk about the things we share in common. I would suggest that those who cannot have friends of other political, religious, and racial backgrounds are the least tolerant of all....speaking of tolerance.

Yes to this. I have friends who I cannot talk politics with because we are such polar opposites - but we are the greatest friends otherwise! I certainly wouldn't end a friendship over opinions even if they were starkly oppposite of mine -that's the beauty of an open society that encourages debate.

However I might end a friendship if I was repeatedly offended by what a person said (which this particular example does seem to indicate). It's very personal though where that line is. I think in this situation I would have said something on the spot and then see what unfolded. If it was a very close friend I'd need to see a pattern first - I mean I can't imagine being so off in my interpretaion of the person's beliefs/character so maybe something was really off. However, I've never had the kind of extreme experience you/the OP did, but have heard subtley offensive and condescending comments and stopped being friends with that particular person...but things were on the downhill path anyway (maybe by chance, maybe not).

As for news channels, a person will always agree with the channel that supports their view and demonizes the other. Most if not all news channels these days are colored by political slant - this is a fact. It's been well established that more (American) people get their "news" from the Jon Stewart show than the major networks, and his show is open about where it stands in the political spectrum. It's all about choice - and I dont presume to think another person's news source choice (especially when it is mainstream) is any less valid than mine no matter how politically incorrect or popular it might be at the time.

 

[CherryBlossom]

I see issues with both your thinking and her thinking and now it makes perfect sense why you responded the way you did to in my previous thread (which by the way, I responded to). In that thread, you read something I wrote, assumed what you wanted to assume, and then told me you couldn't "take my posts seriously anymore," because you couldn't believe what I said. You made those assumptions before I even explained what I wrote and what I meant by what I said. So, who knows if you didn't actually act the same way with your friend because if you did, I can definitely see why she could have felt misunderstood/victimized by you.

If you can't accept the way she thinks about certain topics then having that last conversation with her was probably the best thing that you could have done----it solidified that you don't want her in your life and you can walk away in confidence with your decision.

it's not that I just have a problem with what "she thinks about certain topics" eh NO. She can have her views on "topics" but someones race and how they are treated because of it is not just a "topic" When is it EVER okay to use a racially derogatory name? PLEASE give me ONE instance when it's okay. I frankly don't care what her experiences are. It does not matter. It's NEVER okay to use the "N" word. She was defending her right to say it because she has issues, and I am not interested in allowing her to validate those issues. She is a grown woman. not just that, she's a grown EDUCATED woman who lives in Los Angeles CA. it's wrong. period. the end.

 

[Autumnovember]

I see issues with both your thinking and her thinking and now it makes perfect sense why you responded the way you did to in my previous thread (which by the way, I responded to). In that thread, you read something I wrote, assumed what you wanted to assume, and then told me you couldn't "take my posts seriously anymore," because you couldn't believe what I said. You made those assumptions before I even explained what I wrote and what I meant by what I said. So, who knows if you didn't actually act the same way with your friend because if you did, I can definitely see why she could have felt misunderstood/victimized by you.

If you can't accept the way she thinks about certain topics then having that last conversation with her was probably the best thing that you could have done----it solidified that you don't want her in your life and you can walk away in confidence with your decision.

it's not that I just have a problem with what "she thinks about certain topics" eh NO. She can have her views on "topics" but someones race and how they are treated because of it is not just a "topic" When is it EVER okay to use a racially derogatory name? PLEASE give me ONE instance when it's okay. I frankly don't care what her experiences are. It does not matter. It's NEVER okay to use the "N" word. She was defending her right to say it because she has issues, and I am not interested in allowing her to validate those issues. She is a grown woman. not just that, she's a grown EDUCATED woman who lives in Los Angeles CA. it's wrong. period. the end.

I'm glad you chose to completely ignore the first half of what I said and went straight to being defensive.

See ya later. The end.

 

[iheartscience]

She reacted completely in the vein of a racist who is trying to justify their views. Her reasons for using the N word are laughable but they are very valid in her own mind. She's conflating issues left right and centre. Good try but she's convinced she's a victim and an entire race is to blame for that. How can you argue with that kind of "logic"?

Ditto rosetta. Yuck. It's clear she's not the type of person you want to surround yourself with.

 

[iheartscience]

I see issues with both your thinking and her thinking and now it makes perfect sense why you responded the way you did to in my previous thread (which by the way, I responded to). In that thread, you read something I wrote, assumed what you wanted to assume, and then told me you couldn't "take my posts seriously anymore," because you couldn't believe what I said. You made those assumptions before I even explained what I wrote and what I meant by what I said. So, who knows if you didn't actually act the same way with your friend because if you did, I can definitely see why she could have felt misunderstood/victimized by you.

If you can't accept the way she thinks about certain topics then having that last conversation with her was probably the best thing that you could have done----it solidified that you don't want her in your life and you can walk away in confidence with your decision.

it's not that I just have a problem with what "she thinks about certain topics" eh NO. She can have her views on "topics" but someones race and how they are treated because of it is not just a "topic" When is it EVER okay to use a racially derogatory name? PLEASE give me ONE instance when it's okay. I frankly don't care what her experiences are. It does not matter. It's NEVER okay to use the "N" word. She was defending her right to say it because she has issues, and I am not interested in allowing her to validate those issues. She is a grown woman. not just that, she's a grown EDUCATED woman who lives in Los Angeles CA. it's wrong. period. the end.

I'm glad you chose to completely ignore the first half of what I said and went straight to being defensive.

See ya later. The end.

I'm not sure what other threads you're referencing, AN, but I'm with CherryBlossom on this one. This isn't just a "topic" to disagree with a friend about. We're not talking political views, we're talking blatant racism. The two are very, very far apart.

 

[Autumnovember]

I see issues with both your thinking and her thinking and now it makes perfect sense why you responded the way you did to in my previous thread (which by the way, I responded to). In that thread, you read something I wrote, assumed what you wanted to assume, and then told me you couldn't "take my posts seriously anymore," because you couldn't believe what I said. You made those assumptions before I even explained what I wrote and what I meant by what I said. So, who knows if you didn't actually act the same way with your friend because if you did, I can definitely see why she could have felt misunderstood/victimized by you.

If you can't accept the way she thinks about certain topics then having that last conversation with her was probably the best thing that you could have done----it solidified that you don't want her in your life and you can walk away in confidence with your decision.

it's not that I just have a problem with what "she thinks about certain topics" eh NO. She can have her views on "topics" but someones race and how they are treated because of it is not just a "topic" When is it EVER okay to use a racially derogatory name? PLEASE give me ONE instance when it's okay. I frankly don't care what her experiences are. It does not matter. It's NEVER okay to use the "N" word. She was defending her right to say it because she has issues, and I am not interested in allowing her to validate those issues. She is a grown woman. not just that, she's a grown EDUCATED woman who lives in Los Angeles CA. it's wrong. period. the end.

I'm glad you chose to completely ignore the first half of what I said and went straight to being defensive.

See ya later. The end.

I'm not sure what other threads you're referencing, AN, but I'm with CherryBlossom on this one. This isn't just a "topic" to disagree with a friend about. We're not talking political views, we're talking blatant racism. The two are very, very far apart.

Then what was the question about in this thread? if it so OBVIOUS that it was blatant racism and that its not something she wants to be around, SAY BYE. Obviously it was for validation purposes. I shouldn't have used the word "topic" to say what I wanted to say because CLEARLY the two are different, I think most people know that. Also, everything I said in the first half has everything to do with how Cherry chooses to handle situations where her views are not being agreed upon. Lastly, I'm responded again to answer you, Thing, but I won't participate in this thread hereafter for reasons that the OP knows about.

 

[Circe]

I see issues with both your thinking and her thinking and now it makes perfect sense why you responded the way you did to in my previous thread (which by the way, I responded to). In that thread, you read something I wrote, assumed what you wanted to assume, and then told me you couldn't "take my posts seriously anymore," because you couldn't believe what I said. You made those assumptions before I even explained what I wrote and what I meant by what I said. So, who knows if you didn't actually act the same way with your friend because if you did, I can definitely see why she could have felt misunderstood/victimized by you.

If you can't accept the way she thinks about certain topics then having that last conversation with her was probably the best thing that you could have done----it solidified that you don't want her in your life and you can walk away in confidence with your decision.

it's not that I just have a problem with what "she thinks about certain topics" eh NO. She can have her views on "topics" but someones race and how they are treated because of it is not just a "topic" When is it EVER okay to use a racially derogatory name? PLEASE give me ONE instance when it's okay. I frankly don't care what her experiences are. It does not matter. It's NEVER okay to use the "N" word. She was defending her right to say it because she has issues, and I am not interested in allowing her to validate those issues. She is a grown woman. not just that, she's a grown EDUCATED woman who lives in Los Angeles CA. it's wrong. period. the end.

I'm glad you chose to completely ignore the first half of what I said and went straight to being defensive.

See ya later. The end.

I'm not sure what other threads you're referencing, AN, but I'm with CherryBlossom on this one. This isn't just a "topic" to disagree with a friend about. We're not talking political views, we're talking blatant racism. The two are very, very far apart.

Then what was the question about in this thread? if it so OBVIOUS that it was blatant racism and that its not something she wants to be around, SAY BYE. Obviously it was for validation purposes. I shouldn't have used the word "topic" to say what I wanted to say because CLEARLY the two are different, I think most people know that. Also, everything I said in the first half has everything to do with how Cherry chooses to handle situations where her views are not being agreed upon. Lastly, I'm responded again to answer you, Thing, but I won't participate in this thread hereafter for reasons that the OP knows about.

Er ... Autumn, I think you're letting your feelings about the other thread color your response to this one (and I agreed with you in the other one). This isn't a live-and-let-live kind of a difference where you can agree to disagree. Hateful racists need to be made aware what they're saying/doing is not okay by general standards. Why? So they'll hopefully think twice, not just about airing their views in what they assume to be like-minded company, but about ever acting on them. You think this girl would be a nice co-worker to have for a member of another race?

Cherry, good on you for confronting her - and I'm so sorry you had to deal with such a hateful lot of bilge. The victimization complex a lot of majority groups seem to suffer whenever they lose even a tiny bit of privilege is an ugly, ugly thing.

 

[Black Jade]

I have never quit a friendship due to political/social issues.
I have all spectrums of friends ranging from extremely ultra-liberal to tea-partiers, all races, all religions, married many years, divorced single, homosexual; different countries, many different ages too--I'm in my fifties but some of my close close friends are in their eighties and I have other good friends in their 20's. I also have from different areas of the US, liberal cities and heartland, and people , doing different kinds of jobs ranging from blue collar to highly intellectual.
I like different people for different reasons and have never met anybody in my life who agreed with me about EVERYTHING, not even my husband. Sometimes if I have a friend and we don't agree about a particular subject, we mutually agree to avoid it, sometimes tacitly, sometimes saying that we just can't talk about that one thing. But sometimes we discuss things where we don't agree. I believe in listening to people, even if they say something I violently disagree with--sometimes it turns out that its not what they meant, sometimes it turns out that they have something to say that I need to hear. Sometimes my opinion has changed about things from listening to others. Sometimes it hasn't but I get to understand why they have their point of view. there is usually a reason! If you are too quick to label people and not listen to what they want to say further, you will never know, and sometimes that's a loss. I think a lot of discussions where people disagree go exactly where the discussion that the OP had with her former friend went. The friend already knows that her opinions are extremely unpopular (which they should be,I am black and I hardly agree with anyone throwing the N word around). Telling her what a terrible person she is for having them doesn't really accomplish anything besides making you feel how virtuous and advanced you are in comparison, making her feel judged and confirming her in her views and throwing her back into a circle where they are the only views she ever hears. I am very familiar with racism from all sides--I know black people who voice similar views about ALL white people based on a few bad (sometimes very bad) experiences; black people who voice similar views about Jews based on absolutely nothing so far as I can tell, except that anti-Semitism exists all over for no particular reason, Jews are a 'safe' target; black people who hold similar views about all Asians because they just 'look funny' or own a few too many stores in black neighborhoods--etc. etc. While I will not listen to rants, I will listen to people and say that my experiences were different, or try to change things in a meaningful way. Anti-Semitism, for instance, bothers me a lot. Maybe because my own father was a black anti-Semite for a long, long time. I don't go around yelling a lot and fighting with people who are anti-Semites but I try to get a different viewpoint in quickly and then change the subject. Give them something to think about without raising a lot of hostility. I also do a lot of community work and work in the public schools near hear and one thing I do constantly, for many years now is driving an 83 year old Holocaust survivor up to schools in my area, where she gives a great talk. People often jsut simply do not have this information. I remember when my dad started to turn around about the Jews. He saw Schindler's list. It made him very quiet. then he said, "I didn't know those people went through all of that." He started to think about it and got more information. He was already quite old, in his 60's. He finally underwent a deep change.

I have known too many people to undergo great changes to feel that anyone is hopeless in this regard.

Sometimes people are not what you think, based on external symbols. I have some friends who drive around with the Confederate flag on their truck and their son wears a belt with it on. They are great people! My son made friends with their son first (the one who wears the belt). They have no prejudices against any kind of person. To them, this flag is a sign of pride in their culture and ancestors, who had some thoughts and behavior that I obviously don't agree with (they weren't slaveholders, most Southerners were too poor to be, but they did fight for the South). I have ancestors also who did things that I don't agree with. I want to take people on their own terms, not on terms of what their great-grandfather or whoever was up to. I could go around carrying on and saying I wouldnt' speak to anyone who didn't understand that the Confederate flag was terrible, terrible, terrible and I would be missing out then on a very rich friendship with some people who are intelligent, interesting, kind and have added a lot to my life. I would be assuming something (must be racist) because of the meaning I put on that flag, which they actually do not put on it. Maybe (very possibly) some other people who wave it around do put that meaning on it. If they do, and I talk to them, I will soon find it out. I want to take people one by one, however. People are very surprising.

I can actually understand that someone whose only experience of black people was being mugged by one might have some issues. I don't know if it is useful to tell them, well you know white people commit crimes too, because they know white people in other contexts, but they don't know black people in other contexts. American society is really still amazingly separated that way. I know lots of blacks who have no contact with whites in their daily life at all and not only don't know any, but have NEVER known any. There is a larger problem here. Again, I am not condoning the lady's use of language and unacceptable racial slurs. But maybe a dialogue could start, if the friendship does not end that could take her to other places, like happened eventually with my father.

I know that I don't like people jumping on ME. I sincerely, sincerely believe that marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. I have considered this subject a lot and I have yet to hear anything that comes close to convincing me otherwise. Whenever the subject comes up, I think this has such major societal ramifications that I think it's important to say so and I would be very willing to tell my reasons why--except that nowadays people, especially younger people, start screaming at once that they don't want to hear anymore and that I am extremely and deeply prejudiced and that I need to meet some homosexuals and realize that they are real human beings. I grew up in New York City in the seventies, have an uncle who is very close to me who is a homosexual and lived near the Village forever, went to school in that area and not only did I have and do I have many close friends there, but some of my best friends died when the AIDS epidemic first hit in 1981. I don't need someone to tell me that they were human beings and good people who deserve to be treated like people and deserve their human rights and civil rights. I agree with all that already. But I don't think marriage is a civil right. Maybe I am right and maybe I am wrong but I have to say I do start shutting down when I am yelled at and people assume all these thingsand tell me that I think this and that when they have no idea what I think, because they didn't let me talk. Adn they don't actually know me or anything about my life, my past, my friendships--ANYTHING, but have just put in a box--and nailed the lid down. I know I am not alone in this kind of feeling and so far as 'marriage equality' so long as these kinds of tactics go on all that is going to happen is what is happening already. Where people know better than to bring up any other opinion on this subject than the loudest one, but are not having their minds changed about anything because they are not hearing any actual logical arguments on the subject, but just being screamed down.

that is not how us blacks got our civil rights (which did not have anything to do with changing basic societal institutions by the way but were rights like the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to sit anywhere on the bus). But I think I made my point,w hich is that refusing to ever listen or talk to people who don't absolutely agree with you (and I've read some incredible things on this thread-- do some of you really break off friendships because someone watches a tv news station you don't agree with?) is not really going to accomplish very much other than you feeling virtuous--and the other person feeling you are obnoxious and not changing their mind at all.

Oh--I should add that I do have places that I draw the line. I won't keep talking to anyone advocating violence and making threats against other people for whatever reason. And as I said above, I won't talk to people who are using the N word with me--but I do kind of think that YOUR job might be to keep talking to them, if change is really what you want.

 

[CherryBlossom]

I see issues with both your thinking and her thinking and now it makes perfect sense why you responded the way you did to in my previous thread (which by the way, I responded to). In that thread, you read something I wrote, assumed what you wanted to assume, and then told me you couldn't "take my posts seriously anymore," because you couldn't believe what I said. You made those assumptions before I even explained what I wrote and what I meant by what I said. So, who knows if you didn't actually act the same way with your friend because if you did, I can definitely see why she could have felt misunderstood/victimized by you.

If you can't accept the way she thinks about certain topics then having that last conversation with her was probably the best thing that you could have done----it solidified that you don't want her in your life and you can walk away in confidence with your decision.

it's not that I just have a problem with what "she thinks about certain topics" eh NO. She can have her views on "topics" but someones race and how they are treated because of it is not just a "topic" When is it EVER okay to use a racially derogatory name? PLEASE give me ONE instance when it's okay. I frankly don't care what her experiences are. It does not matter. It's NEVER okay to use the "N" word. She was defending her right to say it because she has issues, and I am not interested in allowing her to validate those issues. She is a grown woman. not just that, she's a grown EDUCATED woman who lives in Los Angeles CA. it's wrong. period. the end.

I'm glad you chose to completely ignore the first half of what I said and went straight to being defensive.

See ya later. The end.

dude. what did you say in the first half part of the comment that you would like for me to address? all I saw was some passive aggressive comments referencing another thread where you didn't like what I said to you? Would you like for me to go to that thread and comment to you. I have not been around the site for the past week or so, so I have not seen your response. I have been a little bit busy with school. why are you dragging that thread it into this conversation?

I feel like you keep putting your foot in your mouth. in that "other" thread you used words to describe a "poor" neighborhood in a very snobby way. In this one you use the word "topic" to describe an important issue like racism. I do not know you in real life, all I have to go by are the words that you choose to type. If you don't want to be misunderstood, mean what you say and say what you mean, instead of correcting yourself after the fact.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Ok, I think I weighed in way early in the thread and said that if it were me, I'd probably cut ties to Cherry Blossom's friend. Based on what CB has reported to us, I still stand by that. Anyone who seems to be that delusional about race relations in this day and age, and especially someone who IS well-educated and of, approximately, "my" generation (by which I really just mean under 40 or so), well there's no excuse.

I hate to say it, but my grandparents can be kind of racist, especially towards blacks. My grandma is nearly 80, she's Korean, Koreans (especially of her generation) have never exactly looked super fondly on blacks, and I've heard her say some things that really really shocked me. Obviously I'm not going to cut ties with my grandma, but it does change the way I perceive her. Now if this were a friend and she's even MORE aware (not saying grandma's age and race and such are an excuse for bad racial behavior, but I do have to admit I am harder on those who are my age and SHOULD know "better") of well, the Bad Associations the N word presents, and she's sitting there justifying the use of such a word to me, that's it. So CB, I totally get your anger over it.

Autumn - I have to say, I'm rather confused about your involvement and position in this thread. Actually, considering I was reading both your thread and this one, I wasn't entirely sure where to post this, but I'm with Circe - I think CB's involvement in your other thread is prejudicing you against the situation in THIS thread (and I agree with you on your thread about the poor neighborhoods point - I spent three years in Hyde Park, Chicago - way more gentrified than farther south or west but still not a place I'd ever walk around by myself at night). In this case, like others have said, it's not just a VIEW CB's "friend" holds. It's not like they're arguing over which is better with fries - ketchup or mayonnaise - where it's entirely subjective and personal preference. CB's friend referring to blacks with the N word and then trying to justify it isn't just a view - it really is racist.

 

[Imdanny]

I'd quit a friendship in a heartbeat over political/ social issues. Are you serious? I don't choose to be friends with racists and other hateful people. Not a chance.

 

[galeteia]

Autumn - I have to say, I'm rather confused about your involvement and position in this thread. Actually, considering I was reading both your thread and this one, I wasn't entirely sure where to post this, but I'm with Circe - I think CB's involvement in your other thread is prejudicing you against the situation in THIS thread (and I agree with you on your thread about the poor neighborhoods point - I spent three years in Hyde Park, Chicago - way more gentrified than farther south or west but still not a place I'd ever walk around by myself at night). In this case, like others have said, it's not just a VIEW CB's "friend" holds. It's not like they're arguing over which is better with fries - ketchup or mayonnaise - where it's entirely subjective and personal preference. CB's friend referring to blacks with the N word and then trying to justify it isn't just a view - it really is racist.

Yeah, same.

To be honest, I haven't seen anything constructive, just what seems like attention-seeking posts trying to drum up sympathy for CB's supposed transgressions in AN's thread. I don't know you, AN, but since you have thrown stones about how CG's posts in *your* thread (um, this thread wasn't about you and your thread, how is that relevant? ) have tainted your view of her, etc etc, perhaps it's relevant to think how you have presented yourself in this thread. I am not trying to be snarky, but as an outsider to whatever happened in your thread, it's something worth reflecting on.

(However, I do love a good flounce-and-recant, so this thread has delivered! )

 

[Imdanny]

woah! I had no idea that this thread got so active after I posted it. Again, due to end of year exams and school stuff I will be coming and going for the next few weeks.

Wellllll... I finally sat down and discussed my issues w/ her last tonight and I tried to be delicate about it but she got defensive pretty quickly. At first started to say that saying the "N" word was a slip of the tongue, I felt her trying to skirt her away around it so I called on it and said that it's an odd slip of the tongue, why bring up someones race as a way to insult them?

after a few minutes of back and forth about that she began to tell me this sob story of how some African American guy tried to her steal her laptop during senior year of college and how she had valid reason to not feel safe around "them" - she was going on and on and I was trying to listen and not talk over her but I couldn't take it anymore. I snapped and literally said "What is wrong with you?' do you know that a white guy broke the windows of my car and stole a bunch of stuff from my car. Another white guy cornered me at a party once and didn't take his hands off of me until someone else helped me. I've been harassed and annoyed by people of various races, that's NO EXCUSE to a) call people of a race "them" and 2) assume that "they" are all going to act the same way 3) be racist.

I reminded her that she's a student of science and it's a shame that she's allowed her supposed open mind to become so clouded and closed off.

of course these comments lead to her to becoming even more defensive and she said the N word all over again, claiming that if it's ok for Chris Rock to say it than it should be okay for her to say it. I called her on that too, pointing out that although it's inflammatory language, for many within the African American community it's also re-appropriation of the word. I attempted to explain white privilege to her and how it's exhibited in this country but she didn't want to hear it. She said that white Americans are always targeted and demonized, that they are a group who has no privileges because our society is so PC. She exhibited a vile form of DELUSIONAL hate that I have never seen before. It's like she was keeping all of this inside of her this entire time. Her views were all mixed up w/ various types of crap about politics and cultural anecdotes. She remained calm but everything she was staying stung me. I have no idea what happened to her or why, but frankly that's no longer my problem. It's her problem and she has to live w/ the alienating hell that she's created for herself. She didn't admit to doing a single thing wrong and kept telling me that I was just judging her and not being as open minded as I pretend to be. She kept saying "do you want to stifle me? why do people have to be so PC and afraid of pointing out basic things we all know to be true about race." - and I had to point blank ask her "and what truth are those?" to which she replied "we are different socially and culturally. I am not a racist because I do think that there things that blacks are better than other races, but there are clear differences and we're afraid to admit it them because our culture is so PC." - Once again I sat there dumbfounded. On the matter of Obama, she said that it didn't matter if he was Muslim, so I pressed her again and said "so why did you even bring it up?" and she said "because he is lying about it to the American public and we deserve to know" -- and I said "why do we need to know about his faith? that goes against our nations principles of separation of church and state, and I am sorry but I think that what you're implying has racist undertones not just toward Obama as an African American but also towards Muslim. You're saying that Muslims are questionable because of their faith"

I was so disgusted by ever aspect of the conversation and furthermore, I was also mad at myself for missing the warning signs that she may have exhibited previously. She just kept telling me that I had allowed my "PC rhetoric to cloud my views and that I was now trying to tell her what she had a right to say." so I looked her square in the eyes and told her that she had a right to say whatever she wanted, but that I wouldn't put up with her saying horrid things about complete strangers simply based on the color of their skin when she's around me. I said that her words didn't just hurt the individuals she was talking about, but it hurt me personally.

At this point she was really mad, and she had to get one last dig in before walking way, so she brought up the fact that I am Middle Eastern and marrying outside of my race. She said "don't you think it's a bit ironic that you have such issues with race, but you're the one that can't stand your own race, so you are marrying someone outside of your race. Clearly it's because you recognize that there's something wrong with men in your culture and you see something better about our culture" - when she said that, any feelings of loss that I felt for the friendship just washed away. I told her she needed help, that she was absolutely clueless about how love works and that one can't help who they fall in love or connect with... our president's parents are a perfect example of that. They fell in love w/ one another at a time when their union was against the law in many states. I told her that my own relationship w/ a man who is American/white had nothing to do with me rejecting my race. In fact there are many men with a Middle Eastern background whom I admire... my father and brothers being just some of them. I think that any woman (of any race) would be lucky to get married to one of my brothers, because my parents raised them to treat women w/ respect.

I didn't know what else to say. She dismissed everything that I said and the conversation ended with me very upset and w/ her telling me that I had hurt her so badly w/ my words. That I was accusing her of being something that she's not and she felt misunderstood. She victimized herself the entire time and I want no part of it.

That's what they all say- 'I'm not REALLY being a racist, anti-gay, etc.' Yeah, using the N word isn't being a racist, stop being so PC!

I didn't read this before I gave my 2 cents, but truthfully the behavior you described is so off the charts, there was bound to be more where that came from.

I'm sorry that you had to have this unpleasant experience because your friend's views turned out to be so vile. I've been in similar situations and it's like banging one's head against a concrete wall.

 

[Imdanny]

I know that I don't like people jumping on ME. I sincerely, sincerely believe that marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. I have considered this subject a lot and I have yet to hear anything that comes close to convincing me otherwise. Whenever the subject comes up, I think this has such major societal ramifications that I think it's important to say so and I would be very willing to tell my reasons why--except that nowadays people, especially younger people, start screaming at once that they don't want to hear anymore and that I am extremely and deeply prejudiced and that I need to meet some homosexuals and realize that they are real human beings. I grew up in New York City in the seventies, have an uncle who is very close to me who is a homosexual and lived near the Village forever, went to school in that area and not only did I have and do I have many close friends there, but some of my best friends died when the AIDS epidemic first hit in 1981. I don't need someone to tell me that they were human beings and good people who deserve to be treated like people and deserve their human rights and civil rights. I agree with all that already. But I don't think marriage is a civil right. Maybe I am right and maybe I am wrong but I have to say I do start shutting down when I am yelled at and people assume all these thingsand tell me that I think this and that when they have no idea what I think, because they didn't let me talk. Adn they don't actually know me or anything about my life, my past, my friendships--ANYTHING, but have just put in a box--and nailed the lid down. I know I am not alone in this kind of feeling and so far as 'marriage equality' so long as these kinds of tactics go on all that is going to happen is what is happening already. Where people know better than to bring up any other opinion on this subject than the loudest one, but are not having their minds changed about anything because they are not hearing any actual logical arguments on the subject, but just being screamed down.

that is not how us blacks got our civil rights (which did not have anything to do with changing basic societal institutions by the way but were rights like the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to sit anywhere on the bus). But I think I made my point,w hich is that refusing to ever listen or talk to people who don't absolutely agree with you (and I've read some incredible things on this thread-- do some of you really break off friendships because someone watches a tv news station you don't agree with?) is not really going to accomplish very much other than you feeling virtuous--and the other person feeling you are obnoxious and not changing their mind at all.

Oh--I should add that I do have places that I draw the line. I won't keep talking to anyone advocating violence and making threats against other people for whatever reason. And as I said above, I won't talk to people who are using the N word with me--but I do kind of think that YOUR job might be to keep talking to them, if change is really what you want.

Um, yeah, and I guess that would be MORE AND MORE states getting same sex marriage and civil union laws.

Did you ever think that maybe you are, um, wrong? Maybe you are NOT LISTENING to the arguments that have been given to you? Or maybe you think that all those different states got same sex marriage and civil union laws without any "logical arguments"? I'm sure.

Well, thank you for that. It's so nice to know that you don't think gay people should have the same rights as straight people in society. And like anyone asked.

 

[rosetta]

Autumn - I have to say, I'm rather confused about your involvement and position in this thread. Actually, considering I was reading both your thread and this one, I wasn't entirely sure where to post this, but I'm with Circe - I think CB's involvement in your other thread is prejudicing you against the situation in THIS thread (and I agree with you on your thread about the poor neighborhoods point - I spent three years in Hyde Park, Chicago - way more gentrified than farther south or west but still not a place I'd ever walk around by myself at night). In this case, like others have said, it's not just a VIEW CB's "friend" holds. It's not like they're arguing over which is better with fries - ketchup or mayonnaise - where it's entirely subjective and personal preference. CB's friend referring to blacks with the N word and then trying to justify it isn't just a view - it really is racist.

Yeah, same.

To be honest, I haven't seen anything constructive, just what seems like attention-seeking posts trying to drum up sympathy for CB's supposed transgressions in AN's thread. I don't know you, AN, but since you have thrown stones about how CG's posts in *your* thread (um, this thread wasn't about you and your thread, how is that relevant? ) have tainted your view of her, etc etc, perhaps it's relevant to think how you have presented yourself in this thread. I am not trying to be snarky, but as an outsider to whatever happened in your thread, it's something worth reflecting on.

(However, I do love a good flounce-and-recant, so this thread has delivered! )

I'm completely with cherryblossom, Circe, BEG and Galateia on this. I don't understand why you are dragging your personal issues from another thread to flounce on this one AN. Not very mature is it? I don't see any problem about how CB dealt with her ex-friend frankly.

Maybe I'm not quite undetstanding the issue here?

 

[princesss]

CB, I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. Wow.

 

[Circe]

....
I know that I don't like people jumping on ME. I sincerely, sincerely believe that marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. I have considered this subject a lot and I have yet to hear anything that comes close to convincing me otherwise. Whenever the subject comes up, I think this has such major societal ramifications that I think it's important to say so and I would be very willing to tell my reasons why--except that nowadays people, especially younger people, start screaming at once that they don't want to hear anymore and that I am extremely and deeply prejudiced and that I need to meet some homosexuals and realize that they are real human beings. I grew up in New York City in the seventies, have an uncle who is very close to me who is a homosexual and lived near the Village forever, went to school in that area and not only did I have and do I have many close friends there, but some of my best friends died when the AIDS epidemic first hit in 1981. I don't need someone to tell me that they were human beings and good people who deserve to be treated like people and deserve their human rights and civil rights. I agree with all that already. But I don't think marriage is a civil right. Maybe I am right and maybe I am wrong but I have to say I do start shutting down when I am yelled at and people assume all these thingsand tell me that I think this and that when they have no idea what I think, because they didn't let me talk. Adn they don't actually know me or anything about my life, my past, my friendships--ANYTHING, but have just put in a box--and nailed the lid down. I know I am not alone in this kind of feeling and so far as 'marriage equality' so long as these kinds of tactics go on all that is going to happen is what is happening already. Where people know better than to bring up any other opinion on this subject than the loudest one, but are not having their minds changed about anything because they are not hearing any actual logical arguments on the subject, but just being screamed down.

that is not how us blacks got our civil rights (which did not have anything to do with changing basic societal institutions by the way but were rights like the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to sit anywhere on the bus). But I think I made my point,w hich is that refusing to ever listen or talk to people who don't absolutely agree with you (and I've read some incredible things on this thread-- do some of you really break off friendships because someone watches a tv news station you don't agree with?) is not really going to accomplish very much other than you feeling virtuous--and the other person feeling you are obnoxious and not changing their mind at all.

...

Er ... this is actually not true. The right to own other human beings was seen as a "basic societal institution" of the first water, and the Bible was used to support that one, too (Ham as a hewer of wood and a carrier of water). Miscegenation was seen as a crime that was actually policed much more strictly than sodomy ever has been (particularly if a white lady was involved - consider the case of Emmet Till), and that was equally illegal to gay marriage in much of the country until 1967, when the Supreme Court decided the case of Loving vs. Virginia, and put an end to racially based legal restrictions on marriage. And let's not even get into the various civil rights that required protests and blood before they were granted, or I'll wind up outweighing the three pages worth of material that have already been written.

I wouldn't stop being friends with someone over their choice of a news program. But I'd refuse to talk politics with them - I love my dad, but if I hear one more factoid by way of the Post, I'll scream. And if their choice of news program was merely indicative of their adherence to intolerant and bigoted views? I'd have the same conversation that Cherry had with her former friend (possibly with more indignation - if anybody tried telling me I obviously harbored anti-Semitic feelings because I, as a Jew, must hate my race if I'd marry a non-Jew, there would not be enough WUT NOW in the world).

I continue to be weirdly fascinated by the position that some bigots take, that their intolerance deserves tolerance from others. It's like some sort of meta micro-cosm of what's wrong with the liberal left in this country - they bent over backwards one time too many, and now it's like an excuse to walk all over them. Heck, they/we might as well put out a welcome mat. ARGH.