Random Thoughts on Cohabitation......

[monarch64]

I am like Tgal, and possibly others, not having read this thread in its entirety. I lived with DH for almost 9 months before we were engaged and I kept it from my father for about 6 months. I never felt like we were "living in sin" or "shacking up." I just felt like I had known I was going to marry him from the moment we met (you would have to know our story), and that it wasn't wrong, and DH felt the same way. We've been married for almost 5 years now...we dated LD for about 4 months and then moved in together, knowing we would get married.

ETA: I don't know about all the incentive business, I never have been able to provide great answers since registering on Ps a few years ago. I think that women sometimes underestimate themselves, I know I did. I remember that my mom told me while I was LD dating my hubby, "you need to learn how to cook, you've got to have something to offer." which I thought was absolute bs and still do. And you know what? DH cooks more and better than I do, and he still loves me. Maybe we don't have sex every day 10 times a day, and maybe he isn't showering me with diamonds, but in the end, he and I connect on a level that most people we know don't, and that is what matters and what keeps us together.

 

[anchor31]

Seems like the opinions are split, as usual for that sort of subject. It''s interesting to read the different points of view, though!

I personally agree with Sha. I''ve seen it too many times not to. The number of disappointed women FI or I have talked to who live with boyfriends who won''t marry them... It''s really sad. And since de facto unions have no legal standings in Qc and salary equality still hasn''t been attained, most of these women are in pretty risky situations. The men were all too happy to move in with those women, but when it comes to tying the knot, "they''re not ready". I, like Sha, wonder what the heck are they not ready for... They''re already living like they''re married after all. The women in question all assumed that it was the next step to marriage... WRONG.

However, I don''t think that cohabitation itself is the problem. Cohabitation without any agreement or serious discussion about it actually being the next step to marriage is. Some women assume it is but it hasn''t been discussed, and that''s where the disappointment and issues come from.

Bottom line is, TALK to your man. Make you your both of the same path and have the same goals... It''ll spare you a lot of disppointment and bitterness in the end.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 5/19/2008 9:47:34 AM
Author: anchor31
Seems like the opinions are split, as usual for that sort of subject. It''s interesting to read the different points of view, though!


I personally agree with Sha. I''ve seen it too many times not to. The number of disappointed women FI or I have talked to who live with boyfriends who won''t marry them... It''s really sad. And since de facto unions have no legal standings in Qc and salary equality still hasn''t been attained, most of these women are in pretty risky situations. The men were all too happy to move in with those women, but when it comes to tying the knot, ''they''re not ready''. I, like Sha, wonder what the heck are they not ready for... They''re already living like they''re married after all. The women in question all assumed that it was the next step to marriage... WRONG.


However, I don''t think that cohabitation itself is the problem. Cohabitation without any agreement or serious discussion about it actually being the next step to marriage is. Some women assume it is but it hasn''t been discussed, and that''s where the disappointment and issues come from.


Bottom line is, TALK to your man. Make you your both of the same path and have the same goals... It''ll spare you a lot of disppointment and bitterness in the end.

Well said, anchor!

 

[KCCutie]

I agree it''s not living with an SO that''s the problem. Living with an SO without talking ahead of time about your expectations is the problem.

Personally I have never lived with and SO and don''t plan to until I am engaged. I think I need that measure of commitment before I give up my independence. I like what a previous poster said about having an absolute commitment so that there is something concrete to fight for if things get tough.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 5/17/2008 11:02:34 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I think there are two valid reasons to cohabit. The problem comes when both parties don''t agree on the SAME two reasons.

1. You''re both in lust, and just want to be together because the person is ''Mr or Ms Right Now''. Both parties go into the relationship for mutual fun, sharing of expenses, experiences or whatever. Two adults making a decision for the moment. No strings, no expectations.

2. You''re both in love, and believe that this is ''Mr or Ms Right''. Both parties go into the relationship with the idea that this is the trial step to marriage. Two adults who have discussed and agree on a timeline for the trial, and when the engagement and subsequent marriage will occur.

If women would stick to one or the other, there wouldn''t BE any LIW posts about disappointments or unmet expectations.

Ladies, do NOT move in ''hoping'' that he will see you as the future Mrs.

If you think he is the one, have that conversation before you cohabit. If he is uncomfortable with a sane discussion, it''s not the right time to move in. If you both agree it''s a trial, then put a limit on the trial period. Decide mutually how much time you''re both comfortable with.

Otherwise, you''re just shacking up. Not that there''s anything wrong with that. Just don''t go in with expectations that only exist on your part

There is no cohabitation without strings. There are always strings. There is nothing casual about living together as BF/GF. I don''t believe that too many intelligent women actually ''shack up''. Why would anyone settle for less than a real relationship? Or at least what they believe to be real?

Personally, I believe it is too important to be able to have space . . . a place where he is not . . . while dating. It''s important to be able (in a physical and fiscal sense) to leave the relationship if you need to. You cannot do that while cohabitating. It is important, when you are not engaged (or do not have an ''understanding''), to be able to live your own life: move if you need to; take a different job if necessary; say yes to professional opportunities. Buy a house; buy a car; spend or save however you want; travel. These are all thinigs you might put on hold or turn down if you were encumbered with a live-in relationship.

And, yes. The guy will usually get to feeling comfortable with the status quo. This is the way guys are wired. They HATE change. Any change. (Not all of them; but damn close.) Moving on from here is not as easy for them as you think it should be.

 

[absolut_blonde]

Date: 5/19/2008 9:47:34 AM
Author: anchor31
Seems like the opinions are split, as usual for that sort of subject. It''s interesting to read the different points of view, though!

I personally agree with Sha. I''ve seen it too many times not to. The number of disappointed women FI or I have talked to who live with boyfriends who won''t marry them... It''s really sad. And since de facto unions have no legal standings in Qc and salary equality still hasn''t been attained, most of these women are in pretty risky situations. The men were all too happy to move in with those women, but when it comes to tying the knot, ''they''re not ready''. I, like Sha, wonder what the heck are they not ready for... They''re already living like they''re married after all. The women in question all assumed that it was the next step to marriage... WRONG.

However, I don''t think that cohabitation itself is the problem. Cohabitation without any agreement or serious discussion about it actually being the next step to marriage is. Some women assume it is but it hasn''t been discussed, and that''s where the disappointment and issues come from.

Bottom line is, TALK to your man. Make you your both of the same path and have the same goals... It''ll spare you a lot of disppointment and bitterness in the end.

I think the problem is, though, talking is no guarantee that things will ever progress to the next level.

Intentionally or not, some men do not end up following through on their promises to propose down the road. Maybe they meant it at the time, maybe not. Maybe they mistakenly thought living together would help them feel more ready. Maybe they never really intended to follow through but figured that living together would be ''good enough''. Who knows, really.

So you can talk about it, and you should. But to a large extent, it''s still a leap of faith. It takes a lot of trust to know someone will in fact follow through and propose down the road. Of course, you should have faith/trust in a SO. But it also shouldn''t be blindly -- because there are surely men who fall into what I described above who were dating women that did trust them to propose in time. It''s a tricky balancing act sometimes.

 

[StarvingMusician]

This is a topic very close to my boyfriend and I...

We are basically getting married, because we are ready to live together. My parents are very conservative, and although we see no issue living together when unmarried, even unengaged, we know that it would put a huge strain on my close relationship with my parents. They already take some issue with our relationship (for instance, we don''t pretend we aren''t *ahem* intimate, shall we say?) and we don''t want to make it more awkward.

That isn''t to say that this is forcing our marriage. We are ready to be married, and both of our leases are up in July, so it would make the most sense to move in together then. Since neither of us wants a wedding, we''ll just probably elope before then, move in together and call it square.

Reading everyone''s responses was interesting...there are some smart women on here!

 

[aliciagirl]

I think the sweeping generalizations used regarding gender in this thread are really quite insulting to both parties. I, as the woman, am not begging and pleading for an "official commitment" while my SO enjoys all the "benefits of being married." I don't think it's fair to say that to all men getting someone to cook and clean and put out for them are the benefits of marriage... I know, at least for my guy, he values the legalities of marriage. But what I find troubling is that some people think regular sex or the woman cooking and cleaning are prizes that men win *after* they marry us. I know I certainly won't be cooking and cleaning and acting like a 50's housewife after I'm married... I don't know many women who will.

But maybe it's just because what I value in a relationship is equality. We split chores around the house. We discuss proposal as a team with both of our opinions reflected. We don't currently live together but will be come Sept. I know a proposal will happen before the end of the year and I know that we will get married... because I trust that when my guy says something he means it. I personally don't want a bended-knee-engagement-ring type of proposal. I think it's kind of offensive to imply that all women walk around in a state of wedding-readiness waiting for their guy to come around and decide when it will happen. (I've been called a feminist more than once

) After several talks with my SO who wants to do things the old-fashioned way, we came to a compromise on how to handle the proposal.

I don't think moving in together is a good idea unless both parties are on the same page, as others have said. Communication is important and it's important to voice your opinion and not let your SO's overpower your own.

 

[Pushin40]

For this topic - yes, to each his own. I do see both sides.

I moved out of my Mom''s the day after I graduated from high school, and lived with my BF. My mother was appalled that we would live together because she thought this was a reflection of her being a "bad mother" So I asked her if she woud rather I marry him (at 1 and she suddenly saw the light..... BF and I were engaged within 3 months, and in the end we broke up 2 years later when I was 20. I had a very sad .33 carat I3 (or something) marquies ER from Zales that I picked out. OUCH

Then I lived with roommates over the next 6 years.

I then lived with my next real boyfriend. The decision to live together was more for conveninece (my roommate moved out with little notice, he needed to move, etc. We played house for about 2-3 years and he broke up with me and totally broke my heart (in retrospect this was all a very good thing! Can you say LOSER?????)

After crying for 3 days straight and wishing I was dead, I declared I would NEVER EVER live with anyone else........

OK, so then along comes B in May of 2000. I''m older and wiser, and I fall in love. B is divorced and tells very early on that he will never get married again. I''m OK with this because I love him, I want to be with him, and my focus is to be happy, not to necessarily get married.

After a few years, we bought a house together, and 4.5 years later we are still doing great. I should also mention that we now have a level of trust, and he does want to marry me.

Do I regret my other co-habitations? Not really. Althoguth they were painful, I learned a lot about relationships, trust, and committment.

Each of those boys I loved dearly at the time and did think it would lead to marriage. If I had married either of those guys though, I guarentee you I woudl be divorced with several kids. BF #1, alcoholic and BF #2 was a total leach that had a gambling problem and couldn''t be bothered to work. If I hadn''t lived with them, I woudln''t have known.

 

[Independent Gal]

Date: 5/20/2008 11:33:45 AM
Author: aliciagirl
I know I certainly won't be cooking and cleaning and acting like a 50's housewife after I'm married... I don't know many women who will.

Sweety, just prepare yourself for the fact that, while there may be some men out there who really DO do half of the chores, they are in a tiny, teeny minority. If you look at the research, you'll find that 'liberated' men who would never CONSIDER letting their wives do more than their share in fact do... on average... 5 minutes more housework per day than their 'traditional' a woman's place type counterparts.

If you read any of the research on this subject, you'll find that, while our men may do more than their dads did, and while they THINK that they are doing 'their share', the radical inequality in the actual time spent on parenting and housework continues.

One of the most significant causes of unhappiness in marriages is that the woman fully believes and expects that things are going to be equal. Then gradually, the reality dawns on her. She becomes bitter. Conflict increase. Quality of the marriage decreases.

What I'm saying is, don't seriously get your hopes up that this is going to be 'fair' in the sense that you will spend equal time taking care of communal concerns (house upkeep, childcare). The chances that it will be like that are EXTREMELY small, even with men like mine that really THINK they are doing half and think it's only fair to do half.

Lower your expectations. You don't have to embrace the 50's housewife, but believe me, you will be doing more than your share.

Then you can be happy if, by some slim chance he does do half, and you won't grow bitter and angry when he doesn't.

Just a li'l wisdom from an ol' married lady with a highly egalitarian husband (who does about 1/4 of the housework, but thinks he's doing half). And it's not just anecdotal. Seriously. Look at the research.

 

[aliciagirl]

Date: 5/20/2008 1:10:32 PM
Author: Independent Gal

Date: 5/20/2008 11:33:45 AM

Author: aliciagirl

I know I certainly won''t be cooking and cleaning and acting like a 50''s housewife after I''m married... I don''t know many women who will.

Sweety, just prepare yourself for the fact that, while there may be some men out there who really DO do half of the chores, they are in a tiny, teeny minority. If you look at the research, you''ll find that ''liberated'' men who would never CONSIDER letting their wives do more than their share in fact do... on average... 5 minutes more housework per day than their ''traditional'' a woman''s place type counterparts.


If you read any of the research on this subject, you''ll find that, while our men may do more than their dads did, and while they THINK that they are doing ''their share'', the radical inequality in the actual time spent on parenting and housework continues.


One of the most significant causes of unhappiness in marriages is that the woman fully believes and expects that things are going to be equal. Then gradually, the reality dawns on her. She becomes bitter. Conflict increase. Quality of the marriage decreases.


What I''m saying is, don''t seriously get your hopes up that this is going to be ''fair'' in the sense that you will spend equal time taking care of communal concerns (house upkeep, childcare). The chances that it will be like that are EXTREMELY small, even with men like mine that really THINK they are doing half and think it''s only fair to do half.


Lower your expectations. You don''t have to embrace the 50''s housewife, but believe me, you will be doing more than your share.


Then you can be happy if, by some slim chance he does do half, and you won''t grow bitter and angry when he doesn''t.


Just a li''l wisdom from an ol'' married lady with a highly egalitarian husband (who does about 1/4 of the housework, but thinks he''s doing half). And it''s not just anecdotal. Seriously. Look at the research.

I know that the reality is that most men don''t do their share of housework. I know that''s especially true with parenting, which is a whole other issue that I feel uncomfortable with.. but that''s another story. But I have lived with my SO previously and he does do half of the chores. We''ve both lived totally on our own for a few years now, so when there is another person to split any of those chores with, we''re both grateful. I hate doing the dishes, so he does them. He hates laundry, so I do it. He runs the sweeper and dusts and cleans the bathroom and the kitchen and I cook (very poorly, haha). I''m a lot messier in general than he is, so I think part of the reason he does so much is because he knows I wouldn''t do it. He''s borderline obsessive about a clean kitchen and bathroom. And he overpaid for a fancy vacuum... so he likes to use it just to comment every time about how amazing it is, haha.

I guess for us it just comes down to the fact that we have equal free time and he knows I''m not going to spend all of mine cleaning because it really doesn''t bother me for things to be messy, so he knows he has to step up. I know a lot of my married friends wanted to be a "good wife" when they first got married and volunteered to clean and cook and now it is always expected of them. Now, they are tired of things being so unequal but their husbands won''t budge on the matter. If my SO knows going into it that those things aren''t optional, it seems like it won''t be as hard to keep him doing his share.

I wouldn''t get bitter or be angry at him if he stopped doing things around the house, though. They just wouldn''t get done. Or I''d hire a housekeeper

This is all strictly about housekeeping, though. I know childcare is totally different and every woman I can think of does more than her share. I''m not entirely sure I want children for that and other (pretty feminist) reasons, but like I said, that''s a whole other thread.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 5/20/2008 1:10:32 PM
Author: Independent Gal

Date: 5/20/2008 11:33:45 AM
Author: aliciagirl
I know I certainly won''t be cooking and cleaning and acting like a 50''s housewife after I''m married... I don''t know many women who will.

Sweety, just prepare yourself for the fact that, while there may be some men out there who really DO do half of the chores, they are in a tiny, teeny minority. If you look at the research, you''ll find that ''liberated'' men who would never CONSIDER letting their wives do more than their share in fact do... on average... 5 minutes more housework per day than their ''traditional'' a woman''s place type counterparts.

If you read any of the research on this subject, you''ll find that, while our men may do more than their dads did, and while they THINK that they are doing ''their share'', the radical inequality in the actual time spent on parenting and housework continues.

One of the most significant causes of unhappiness in marriages is that the woman fully believes and expects that things are going to be equal. Then gradually, the reality dawns on her. She becomes bitter. Conflict increase. Quality of the marriage decreases.

What I''m saying is, don''t seriously get your hopes up that this is going to be ''fair'' in the sense that you will spend equal time taking care of communal concerns (house upkeep, childcare). The chances that it will be like that are EXTREMELY small, even with men like mine that really THINK they are doing half and think it''s only fair to do half.

Lower your expectations. You don''t have to embrace the 50''s housewife, but believe me, you will be doing more than your share.

Then you can be happy if, by some slim chance he does do half, and you won''t grow bitter and angry when he doesn''t.

Just a li''l wisdom from an ol'' married lady with a highly egalitarian husband (who does about 1/4 of the housework, but thinks he''s doing half). And it''s not just anecdotal. Seriously. Look at the research.

You''re right, although there are ways around it. I do a little less than half. The way to do it is really simple: I don''t care, he does. Clutter doesn''t bother me and I don''t sit on the floor so I don''t see the need to vacuum often. I will do chores, but never more than is equal because for me the juice isn''t worth the squeeze. For him, concentrating is more difficult when he knows the dishes are dirty. Our compromise has been to each do the chores the other hates. I hate dishes, he hates cleaning the bathroom, so we don''t make the other do it. I truely think this makes a big difference. If the woman cares more about the chores than the equality, she will do more chores because the guy knows she will.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 5/20/2008 1:33:37 PM
Author: aliciagirl

I know that the reality is that most men don''t do their share of housework. I know that''s especially true with parenting, which is a whole other issue that I feel uncomfortable with.. but that''s another story. But I have lived with my SO previously and he does do half of the chores. We''ve both lived totally on our own for a few years now, so when there is another person to split any of those chores with, we''re both grateful. I hate doing the dishes, so he does them. He hates laundry, so I do it. He runs the sweeper and dusts and cleans the bathroom and the kitchen and I cook (very poorly, haha). I''m a lot messier in general than he is, so I think part of the reason he does so much is because he knows I wouldn''t do it. He''s borderline obsessive about a clean kitchen and bathroom. And he overpaid for a fancy vacuum... so he likes to use it just to comment every time about how amazing it is, haha.


I guess for us it just comes down to the fact that we have equal free time and he knows I''m not going to spend all of mine cleaning because it really doesn''t bother me for things to be messy, so he knows he has to step up. I know a lot of my married friends wanted to be a ''good wife'' when they first got married and volunteered to clean and cook and now it is always expected of them. Now, they are tired of things being so unequal but their husbands won''t budge on the matter. If my SO knows going into it that those things aren''t optional, it seems like it won''t be as hard to keep him doing his share.


I wouldn''t get bitter or be angry at him if he stopped doing things around the house, though. They just wouldn''t get done. Or I''d hire a housekeeper

This is all strictly about housekeeping, though. I know childcare is totally different and every woman I can think of does more than her share. I''m not entirely sure I want children for that and other (pretty feminist) reasons, but like I said, that''s a whole other thread.

Were we separated at birth?

We also have a natural division of labour in our cohabitating household, with the same split of dishes/laundry for the same reasons. He''s very fastidious about the kitchen, so I clean up after myself and then he polishes it up as he likes. I don''t care about which way the toilet paper goes so I bow to his preference, I want things put away in the bathroom so I tuck things away as I find them. I think it would be an entirely different kettle of fish had my guy not lived by, and cleaned up after, himself for years.

Personally, I would never marry someone without cohabitating first, and have used the expression "drive the car before I buy it". One never knows when the Mercedes they think they''re getting is going to turn out to have a go-kart engine under the shiny hood. In my case, we knew right away that we had to get married eventually (international couple) so when we lived together it was for the express purpose of test driving the marriage. We felt we had what it takes, but wanted to put it to the test. In my experience, nothing destroys a relationship faster than living together; talk about separating the wheat from the chaff!

Previously, I was not interested in marriage for it''s own sake and did not view cohabitation as a means to an end. I do not profess to understand the drive to get married, but if I wanted children I believe I would feel very differently. FF and I have the same opinion about marriage; for us, it''s the party when you let everyone know you''ve chosen a mate. We personally feel a marriage only announces a relationship already in existence; it worries me when I come across the viewpoint that the marriage will somehow bring the couple closer together. I do not believe that marriage is a mysterious force that will smooth over the rough spots and deepen the relationship, I feel it''s a secondary aspect of a serious commitment already in place. Cohabitation, for me, is a way to explore the depth of a relationship and put it through its paces. I worry for those who go into marriage without establishing those ground rules, because I see it happen over and over again; no ground rules causing people to fall back on instinct, which results in outdated traditions about how a household functions. More, I see liberated, educated women thrilled with the novelty of playing ''wife'', and by the time they get it out of their system the pattern and expectations by their husbands and themselves have already been set.

My mother recently lectured at a seminar where she overheard one of her colleagues tell a story about her. Her colleague ''Ann'' hosted a dinner party and was in the kitchen, slaving away over the dishes as per usual. My mother breezed in, stated that she loved washing plates, commandeered the sink, washed all the plates, and then announced she was done and breezed back out again. There was no resentment, nor did she do the dishes because that''s what women are supposed to do. She finds washing plates relaxing. Apparently this made ''Ann'' thunderstruck, and the women attending the seminar had similar reactions. I didn''t understand the significance, perhaps because I was raised by her; I feel no obligation to be the one doing the dishes. It''s not ''my place''. It is crystal-clear in my relationship that it is not assumed to be my responsibility to do the dishes, because he does them, and automatically at that. There was no ''this is how it''s going to be because we''re intelligent and this the 2000''s '' and then when you get across the threshold and the honeymoon period is over it''s a different story. It makes the generosity and novelty of the honeymoon phase difficult because when it''s over, the expectation remains.

I think roles are shifting and changing so much these days that it''s difficult for people to establish a way through; we are bouncing between conscious and instinctive choices and expectations, and if they are not identified and vocalized, we run into problems of unmet expectations and strife.

Again, these are my thoughts. Cohabitation is an interesting topic because it causes us to examine areas of personal choice that may not be fully conscious.

 

[MoonWater]

Wow. I must be a lucky gal because FI does WAY more housework than I do. In fact, my schedule has been so grueling that I don''t even think about doing it. He cleans the kitchen, living room, bathroom, and occassionally, the bedroom. He constantly cleans up after me. I do the bedroom more often and that''s usually because I feel guilty that he did the rest of the place. Recently, because my schedule is so wacky, he''s started cooking for me too!

There use to be a rule in the house that if you cooked, then you didn''t have to clean the dishes and vice versa. Sorry to say I have not been keeping up my end of the bargin and he cooks and then does all the dishes! I''m realizing how horrible I am now that I''m typing it out. But I really do have a pretty brutal schedule. He only has to put up with it for a little while longer. Thank god he''s been very gracious about it. He has never complained.

Prior to my crazy schedule he still cleaned much more and better than I did but I helped a lot. But I did all the cooking back then (I was, ahem and am, better at it than he is). But then again, his dad, although older and of the generation where he worked while his wife stayed home and watched the kids, does A LOT of work around the house. He cooks, cleans, and fixes damn near everything. So maybe they''re just an odd family in general. Lucky me!

 

[iheartscience]

Indy is completely correct about the research on "equitable" housework! I actually learned about that in two different classes I took last semester. However, I am another one of the lucky slob ladies who shacks up with a neat freak fiance. He does WAY more housework than I do, probably like 90% of it, although I have recently stepped up my game since I'm not as busy with school and because he was getting sick of being the only person cleaning! Just as it would when the woman does too much housework, my lack of cleaning caused some resentment. He's much happier with me now that I'm pulling my weight!

The bottom line is that I'm super messy and he can't stand messiness! Plus, he's another person who actually likes to do dishes by hand (even when he had a dishwasher in his old apartment he did his dishes by hand!) so he always does the dishes. I'm supposed to take out the trash and clean the bathroom, but that doesn't really happen regularly. The only thing I actually do is feed and water the cats and do their litter box. But I'm trying to be better about cleaning! It's like I just don't even notice the messiness, whereas that's all he can see. To me, it's like one day the living room is clean and then all of the sudden it's covered in school books and shoes! I just don't see messiness as it accumulates, and then it's too late and the living room is a pig sty!

ETA that I can't cook aside from boiling a pot of water for pasta, so he does all the cooking, too! Luckily we eat out a lot, so he doesn't mind cooking every now and then because he enjoys it.

 

[Sha]

Date: 5/20/2008 1:33:37 PM
Author: aliciagirl

Date: 5/20/2008 1:10:32 PM
Author: Independent Gal

Date: 5/20/2008 11:33:45 AM

Author: aliciagirl

I know I certainly won't be cooking and cleaning and acting like a 50's housewife after I'm married... I don't know many women who will.

Sweety, just prepare yourself for the fact that, while there may be some men out there who really DO do half of the chores, they are in a tiny, teeny minority. If you look at the research, you'll find that 'liberated' men who would never CONSIDER letting their wives do more than their share in fact do... on average... 5 minutes more housework per day than their 'traditional' a woman's place type counterparts.


If you read any of the research on this subject, you'll find that, while our men may do more than their dads did, and while they THINK that they are doing 'their share', the radical inequality in the actual time spent on parenting and housework continues.


One of the most significant causes of unhappiness in marriages is that the woman fully believes and expects that things are going to be equal. Then gradually, the reality dawns on her. She becomes bitter. Conflict increase. Quality of the marriage decreases.


What I'm saying is, don't seriously get your hopes up that this is going to be 'fair' in the sense that you will spend equal time taking care of communal concerns (house upkeep, childcare). The chances that it will be like that are EXTREMELY small, even with men like mine that really THINK they are doing half and think it's only fair to do half.


Lower your expectations. You don't have to embrace the 50's housewife, but believe me, you will be doing more than your share.


Then you can be happy if, by some slim chance he does do half, and you won't grow bitter and angry when he doesn't.


Just a li'l wisdom from an ol' married lady with a highly egalitarian husband (who does about 1/4 of the housework, but thinks he's doing half). And it's not just anecdotal. Seriously. Look at the research.

I know that the reality is that most men don't do their share of housework. I know that's especially true with parenting, which is a whole other issue that I feel uncomfortable with.. but that's another story. But I have lived with my SO previously and he does do half of the chores. We've both lived totally on our own for a few years now, so when there is another person to split any of those chores with, we're both grateful. I hate doing the dishes, so he does them. He hates laundry, so I do it. He runs the sweeper and dusts and cleans the bathroom and the kitchen and I cook (very poorly, haha). I'm a lot messier in general than he is, so I think part of the reason he does so much is because he knows I wouldn't do it. He's borderline obsessive about a clean kitchen and bathroom. And he overpaid for a fancy vacuum... so he likes to use it just to comment every time about how amazing it is, haha.

I guess for us it just comes down to the fact that we have equal free time and he knows I'm not going to spend all of mine cleaning because it really doesn't bother me for things to be messy, so he knows he has to step up. I know a lot of my married friends wanted to be a 'good wife' when they first got married and volunteered to clean and cook and now it is always expected of them. Now, they are tired of things being so unequal but their husbands won't budge on the matter. If my SO knows going into it that those things aren't optional, it seems like it won't be as hard to keep him doing his share.

I wouldn't get bitter or be angry at him if he stopped doing things around the house, though. They just wouldn't get done. Or I'd hire a housekeeper

This is all strictly about housekeeping, though. I know childcare is totally different and every woman I can think of does more than her share. I'm not entirely sure I want children for that and other (pretty feminist) reasons, but like I said, that's a whole other thread.

As the person who posted this thread, just wanted to say that….Yes, it was a generalization, but just for the purposes of making an argument, really. I know that all women don’t lives their lives just waiting for an official commitment, and not all men have to be forced into marriage. As I said in my other post too, I realize that women also get ‘benefits’ from living together, just as men do. The thread was mostly to discuss cohabitation in light of the recent LIW stories, many of whom are of women who DO want to get married, and men who, for whatever reason, ARE dragging their feet to commit. So the part about men getting benefits (and a lot of men DO see regular sex, a clean house, cooking as a benefit - and as Indy said, the ratio of women/men doing housework/cleaning is still currently unequal) was merely an attempt to explain how men might think. Not to say that all men feel that way, though.

I wasn’t trying to be politically correct about it (it was more like stream-of-consciousness posting), so sorry for any unintentional offense.

Good reading everyone’s experiences, though! And it was interesting to hear that many women felt that moving in with their SO’s helped them to feel more ready to commit, than the other way around.

I agree with anchor that communication between parties is key, to prevent misunderstandings and unmet expectations.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 5/19/2008 7:03:13 PM
Author: absolut_blonde

Date: 5/19/2008 9:47:34 AM
Author: anchor31
Seems like the opinions are split, as usual for that sort of subject. It''s interesting to read the different points of view, though!

I personally agree with Sha. I''ve seen it too many times not to. The number of disappointed women FI or I have talked to who live with boyfriends who won''t marry them... It''s really sad. And since de facto unions have no legal standings in Qc and salary equality still hasn''t been attained, most of these women are in pretty risky situations. The men were all too happy to move in with those women, but when it comes to tying the knot, ''they''re not ready''. I, like Sha, wonder what the heck are they not ready for... They''re already living like they''re married after all. The women in question all assumed that it was the next step to marriage... WRONG.

However, I don''t think that cohabitation itself is the problem. Cohabitation without any agreement or serious discussion about it actually being the next step to marriage is. Some women assume it is but it hasn''t been discussed, and that''s where the disappointment and issues come from.

Bottom line is, TALK to your man. Make you your both of the same path and have the same goals... It''ll spare you a lot of disppointment and bitterness in the end.

I think the problem is, though, talking is no guarantee that things will ever progress to the next level.

Intentionally or not, some men do not end up following through on their promises to propose down the road. Maybe they meant it at the time, maybe not. Maybe they mistakenly thought living together would help them feel more ready. Maybe they never really intended to follow through but figured that living together would be ''good enough''. Who knows, really.

So you can talk about it, and you should. But to a large extent, it''s still a leap of faith. It takes a lot of trust to know someone will in fact follow through and propose down the road. Of course, you should have faith/trust in a SO. But it also shouldn''t be blindly -- because there are surely men who fall into what I described above who were dating women that did trust them to propose in time. It''s a tricky balancing act sometimes.

Yes, I suppose it is. Which is why I refused to move in with my then-BF before we were engaged.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 5/20/2008 7:28:18 PM
Author: thing2of2
Indy is completely correct about the research on ''equitable'' housework! I actually learned about that in two different classes I took last semester. However, I am another one of the lucky slob ladies who shacks up with a neat freak fiance. He does WAY more housework than I do, probably like 90% of it, although I have recently stepped up my game since I''m not as busy with school and because he was getting sick of being the only person cleaning! Just as it would when the woman does too much housework, my lack of cleaning caused some resentment. He''s much happier with me now that I''m pulling my weight!


The bottom line is that I''m super messy and he can''t stand messiness! Plus, he''s another person who actually likes to do dishes by hand (even when he had a dishwasher in his old apartment he did his dishes by hand!) so he always does the dishes. I''m supposed to take out the trash and clean the bathroom, but that doesn''t really happen regularly. The only thing I actually do is feed and water the cats and do their litter box. But I''m trying to be better about cleaning! It''s like I just don''t even notice the messiness, whereas that''s all he can see. To me, it''s like one day the living room is clean and then all of the sudden it''s covered in school books and shoes! I just don''t see messiness as it accumulates, and then it''s too late and the living room is a pig sty!


ETA that I can''t cook aside from boiling a pot of water for pasta, so he does all the cooking, too! Luckily we eat out a lot, so he doesn''t mind cooking every now and then because he enjoys it.

Hahaha! Oh man, my living room is always covered in books and shoes too!

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 5/20/2008 9:58:11 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 5/20/2008 7:28:18 PM

Author: thing2of2

Indy is completely correct about the research on ''equitable'' housework! I actually learned about that in two different classes I took last semester. However, I am another one of the lucky slob ladies who shacks up with a neat freak fiance. He does WAY more housework than I do, probably like 90% of it, although I have recently stepped up my game since I''m not as busy with school and because he was getting sick of being the only person cleaning! Just as it would when the woman does too much housework, my lack of cleaning caused some resentment. He''s much happier with me now that I''m pulling my weight!



The bottom line is that I''m super messy and he can''t stand messiness! Plus, he''s another person who actually likes to do dishes by hand (even when he had a dishwasher in his old apartment he did his dishes by hand!) so he always does the dishes. I''m supposed to take out the trash and clean the bathroom, but that doesn''t really happen regularly. The only thing I actually do is feed and water the cats and do their litter box. But I''m trying to be better about cleaning! It''s like I just don''t even notice the messiness, whereas that''s all he can see. To me, it''s like one day the living room is clean and then all of the sudden it''s covered in school books and shoes! I just don''t see messiness as it accumulates, and then it''s too late and the living room is a pig sty!



ETA that I can''t cook aside from boiling a pot of water for pasta, so he does all the cooking, too! Luckily we eat out a lot, so he doesn''t mind cooking every now and then because he enjoys it.

Hahaha! Oh man, my living room is always covered in books and shoes too!

YES! It''s not just me! Hahaha! I''ll have to tell my poor fiance that. For some reason I just HAVE to take my shoes off the second I walk into the living room! And the books...yikes...I read a lot, and throw in all my school books...

 

[claireabelle]

My BF and I have been together 6 years and lived together for 5 years (2 years overseas). We own an apartment and a small business together. We will be engaged sometime this year (have ordered a ring).

I''d like to say we do equal chores - but in reality, he does more. We do equal cleaning but he does all the cooking. Lucky me!

It baffles me when some people get so bitter and twisted about cohabitation. I wouldn''t have it any other way.

How can you possibly know if you can share the rest of your life with someone... when you don''t even know if you can share the rest of your house with them?!?

In my observations, this is basically a non-issue in Australia. Most of my friends live with their partners and are in long term relationships (often owning property together). It''s the norm...

 

[ringless]

(sigh) Well, i've been there and done that. I am still with my boyfriend of almost 7 years. When we graduted HS and were only 18, my then roomate got pregnant and I needed my bf to help me out financially.... that turned into a convenient thing for the both of us and we continued to live together for another 2 1/2 years. I have lived with a roomate for some time now, and while it is challenging at times, and they aren't so reliable, I prefer it for now. While it was hard to adjust from living together, then not, most saw that as taking a step back, but in our situation it was what was best for our relationship. I love when he picks me up for "date nights", and love having my place to myself at times. My bf and I weren't ready for the commitment of living with eachother at such a young age as living together requires a lot of that and I truely feel you need to both be 100% ready for it which we weren't for the right reasons. Sad to say, but he said if we didn't live together those 3 years we would have probably been married by now...which i'm totally kicking myself for that now. I dont regret it at all though as it has brought us a lot closer, we don't take eachother for granted as much when it comes to going over each others places... he was the best "roomate" i've ever had. But I do think that leaving some things for after marriage is exciting

. It will be nice to wake up every morning to him again, get to run around the house in whatever I want, whenever I want, etc. It will really be special when we are at that point again... so I am really looking forward to it! And believe me, when we DID live together I was the first to argue with anyone who didn't agree with it... always defending myself and my relationship to everyone, and now I see clearly what was best for us, and that is waiting until after were married to live together again.

Hope this helps you LIW