Red spinel vs. red garnet?

[SouthernGent]

What would be the differences between a red spinel and a red garnet?
It looks like the hardness is similar. Is one more flashy than the other?

 

[Autumn in New England]

Lots of differences that will vary from stone-to-stone. They're all individuals, you know? And certain localities will have specific tendencies. Here's a very abbreviated and general rundown. Figures may differ nominally depending on your source.

Red spinel:
8 hardness (no cleavage, tough gem)
1.71-1.74 RI (brilliance)
.026 dispersion (fire)
3.58-3.61 specific gravity (density)
The sky's the limit as far as pricing top quality red spinel.
Tone is often lighter than red garnet; top color would be medium tone and vivid saturation. Color can veer from a pinkish-red to an orangey-red and everything in between.



Red garnet (let's assume we're talking about pyrope/almandine):
7.5 hardness (no cleavage, but brittle)
1.72-1.81 RI (brilliance)
.024-.027 dispersion (fire)
3.6-4.3 specific gravity (density)
Pricing is affordable even in top quality red garnet stones.
Tone is often darker than red spinel, with exceptions, and like spinel, color can range from pinkish-red to orangey-red and everything in between. I find garnet many times has a brown modifier that I have not observed in high-quality red spinel.

 

[Bron357]

The two main differences are price and source of red colour.
Spinel is red due to Chromium and has very good fluorescence ie glow. It can rival Ruby in terms of tone, hue and glow.
Expensive.
Garnet is red due to Iron which has no fluorescence. It can be very dark red bordering on a brown red colour. Some garnet varieties have a better red colour but the common ones ie pyrope and hessonite are dark / reddish brown.
Much cheaper.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

There are some pretty spectacular red garnets out there, but they're not easy to find. As others have mentioned, they tend to be dark and have secondary hues that you may or may not like.

I purchased this one from @Storiedgemstones on Instagram and it's about as pure red as I've ever seen. No discernable secondary hues to my eye. It is pretty dark, but the cutting brings out a spectacular super-saturated red flash. The photos and videos are pretty spot-on.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

If you like the look, you could always contact them and ask if they have more rough.

High-quality spinel is almost always more vibrant and flashy, largely due to the fluorescence and lighter tone rather than the crystal properties per se. The cost differential is astronomical however.

There are some extremely vibrant and flashy medium-toned garnets out there. I've never seen one that is pure red however. The lighter toned reddish garnets tend to show more pinkish red or purple-red hues.

Garnets almost never fluoresce, with the exception of the occasional weakly fluorescent Mahenge garnet. Even in the Mahenge material, fluorescence is still extremely rare....and not very impressive when it is.

 

[SouthernGent]

Thanks for everyone's replies.

Dr Diesel, that is indeed a beautiful garnet.

 

[LunaIzzy]

Red spinels always fluoresce, while garnets extremely rarely do.

Left: spinel, and right: garnet

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Red spinels always fluoresce, while garnets extremely rarely do.

Left: spinel, and right: garnet

Red spinels don’t always fluoresce, particularly the darker royal reds. The presence of iron makes for a truer, deeper red but quenches the fluorescence.

For example, the spinel in the ring below show no discernible reaction to LWUV. There is also no trace of brown or salmon hues under any lighting conditions.

 

[LunaIzzy]

Red spinels don’t always fluoresce, particularly the darker royal reds. The presence of iron makes for a truer, deeper red but quenches the fluorescence.

For example, the spinel in the ring below show no discernible reaction to LWUV. There is also no trace of brown or salmon hues under any lighting conditions.

Yes, the presence of iron weakens the fluorescence.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

The same is true for this ruby. Deep, pure red. Zero discernible fluorescence.

 

[lovedogs]

Finding a pure red garnet that isn't over dark is hard. I like lighter garnets for that reason, but they aren't bright or flashy like spinel.

 

[Autumn in New England]

The two main differences are price and source of red colour.
Spinel is red due to Chromium and has very good fluorescence ie glow. It can rival Ruby in terms of tone, hue and glow.
Expensive.
Garnet is red due to Iron which has no fluorescence. It can be very dark red bordering on a brown red colour. Some garnet varieties have a better red colour but the common ones ie pyrope and hessonite are dark / reddish brown.
Much cheaper.

I neglected to mention fluorescence... and it's important. Thank you!

 

[SouthernGent]

The same is true for this ruby. Deep, pure red. Zero discernible fluorescence.

Dang, that is a beautiful stone!
Where did you find it?

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Dang, that is a beautiful stone!
Where did you find it?

I bought it from a friend in New York years ago, before ruby prices skyrocketed. He no longer has material of similar quality. His rubies are now all poorly cut, windowed and much more expensive than this one was.

It's 2.28ct, Mozambique origin, it is heated, it does not fluoresce but it is super brilliant and the clarity is near flawless. It is a very pure, deep red (which I prefer for a Man's ring).

The price of Mozambique ruby is now unfortunately approaching that of Burmese material. From what I understand, 2 of the 3 mines in Mozambique are shutting down and production has markedly declined. I haven't seen ruby of similar quality in recent years and, even if I did, I wouldn't be able to afford it.

In the Bangkok market, unheated material is now fetching $20k/ct in mediocre quality. Heated material is about 50% that.

I've looked at a fair number of rubies, just out of curiosity and because I live close to the gem district. Most of the material I see now is, IMO, rather ugly due to the inclusions and terrible cutting. There are occasionally decent pieces, but overpriced in my opinion.

 

[SouthernGent]

I bought it from a friend in New York years ago, before ruby prices skyrocketed. He no longer has material of even similar quality. His rubies are now all poorly cut, windowed and much more expensive than this one was.

It's 2.28ct, Mozambique origin, it is heated, it does not fluoresce but it is super brilliant and the clarity is near flawless.

The price of Mozambique ruby is now approaching that of Burmese material since, from what I understand, 2 of the 3 mines in Mozambique are shutting down and production is markedly declined. Now, I wouldn't be able to afford anything like it.

In the Bangkok market, unheated material is now fetching $20k/ct in mediocre quality. Heated material is about 50% that. Mot of the material I see now is, IMO, rather ugly due to the inclusions and poor cutting. I wouldn't want it even if it were cheaper.

It's looking more and more as if the only affordable option for some (many?) of us is going to be stones cut from lab-grown material.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

It's looking more and more as if the only affordable option for some (many?) of us is going to be stones cut from lab-grown material.

Agreed. That's certainly where its going for me!

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Can anyone explain why spess and tsavs looks so awesome but the other garnets all look kinda meh?

Imagine a pink garnet with the Spess glow? It would look amazing. So why is it flat if they’re all garnets?

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Can anyone explain why spess and tsavs looks so awesome but the other garnets all look kinda meh?

Imagine a pink garnet with the Spess glow? It would look amazing. So why is it flat if they’re all garnets?

That's a great question! It must have something to do with the trace elements that account for the red color. As far as pinks go, some of the pink Mahenge garnets are bright like that. This one did not fluoresce.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

That's a great question! It must have something to do with the trace elements that account for the red color. As far as pinks go, some of the pink Mahenge garnets are bright like that. This one did not fluoresce.

That’s probably the nicest pink garnet I’ve seen but it still lacks a certain richness. Can’t quite explain it!

This may be due to personal taste but if you take a lovely Spess, it looks as nice as an orange sapphire (in my opinion). It has that depth of colour. Same with the tsavs. They are a rich green.

So why aren’t the yellows, pinks and reds as rich?!

 

[CBianco]

Can anyone explain why spess and tsavs looks so awesome but the other garnets all look kinda meh?

Imagine a pink garnet with the Spess glow? It would look amazing. So why is it flat if they’re all garnets?

I am wondering the same thing. My demantoid also rocks, it looks awesome in any lighting. But I had a precision cut mahenge pink that looked amazing but only in good lighting, otherwise it browned out. But that's why they are priced how they are priced, I guess

 

[Dr_Diesel]

That’s probably the nicest pink garnet I’ve seen but it still lacks a certain richness. Can’t quite explain it!

This may be due to personal taste but if you take a lovely Spess, it looks as nice as an orange sapphire (in my opinion). It has that depth of colour. Same with the tsavs. They are a rich green.

So why aren’t the yellows, pinks and reds as rich?!

It's true. The vividness isn't there. That's ultimately why I didn't keep it....and, as @CBianco pointed out, it wasn't great in certain lighting conditions. Really well cut and very brilliant however!

 

[Autumn in New England]

That’s probably the nicest pink garnet I’ve seen but it still lacks a certain richness. Can’t quite explain it!

This may be due to personal taste but if you take a lovely Spess, it looks as nice as an orange sapphire (in my opinion). It has that depth of colour. Same with the tsavs. They are a rich green.

So why aren’t the yellows, pinks and reds as rich?!

And nice orange sapphires are almost always heated (or worse), which spess are not.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

And nice orange sapphires are almost always heated (or worse), which spess are not.

True! Beryllium treatment is common as well.

Moreover, the spessartites just have an incredible snap to them that sapphire does not. They are really magical stones.

I have an almost irresistible (and equally irrational) compulsion to snap this one up: https://www.ebay.com/itm/116116356864



...but I have no idea what I would do with it.

Neither I nor my SO like to wear orange .

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

And nice orange sapphires are almost always heated (or worse), which spess are not.

Yup! So so so true! The “or worse” is what put me off.

I like to go sapphire everything for the hardness and oranges were so affordable but in the end I noped out and settled on a Spess. My bestie bought a Spess many years ago and I had to take her to set it. I remember cussing her “You bloomin idiot how am I going to get you an off the shelf setting for a heart. And why orange????”

She cracked up when I sheepishly showed her this ring.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Yup! So so so true! The “or worse” is what put me off.

I like to go sapphire everything for the hardness and oranges were so affordable but in the end I noped out and settled on a Spess. My bestie bought a Spess many years ago and I had to take her to set it. I remember cussing her “You bloomin idiot how am I going to get you an off the shelf setting for a heart. And why orange????”

She cracked up when I sheepishly showed her this ring.

Yummy

Is that Nigerian material? It's so clean and so vivid!

 

[Avondale]

I have an almost irresistible (and equally irrational) compulsion to snap this one up: https://www.ebay.com/itm/116116356864

Holy Moly that price tag! No wonder the nigerian slightly smaller spess PrecisionGem put on sale recently flew off to someone's collection by the next day. Just for reference...

Precision Gem Available gemstones

precisiongem.com

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Holy Moly that price tag! No wonder the nigerian slightly smaller spess PrecisionGem put on sale recently flew off to someone's collection by the next day. Just for reference...

Precision Gem Available gemstones

precisiongem.com

Yup. Spessartine garnets are going through the roof like everything else.

That's why I referred to my "almost irresistible" compulsion to buy it as "equally irrational"

In all fairness, the color on this one is exceptional (I saw it in person at a trade show), it's beautifully cut with a tall crown, the clarity is completely flawless and the price tag is inflated for eBay....but still. Things have gone too far IMO.

In the Bangkok market, we're now seeing 2ct. Tsavorites selling for between $1500-2000/ct in clean material with top color.

Last year, all my friends in the trade were scrambling to buy more of everything because "prices are just going to keep going up!"

It's not a surprise that, this year, those same people are now saying "business has been slow lately."

For me, this "new pricing" in colored stones just makes me lose interest.

In the end, the only real "value" stones have is what people are willing to pay for them. I, for one, have reached my limit.

I imagine that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Actually, I'm certain of it. As I mentioned in another thread, at recent shows, I have seen a lot of people just walking away in response to outrageous pricing.

The mining companies, who have become quite wealthy, no longer really need money and so can demand whatever they feel like demanding.

As consumers begin to push back against these high prices and the squeeze tightens, smaller gem dealers may well find themselves in a difficult bind.

I guess we'll see what the future holds!

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Holy Moly that price tag! No wonder the nigerian slightly smaller spess PrecisionGem put on sale recently flew off to someone's collection by the next day. Just for reference...

Precision Gem Available gemstones

precisiongem.com

Gene probably had some old stock left over from when the material was more reasonably priced. There would be no way to replace it at that cost nowadays.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

It's looking more and more as if the only affordable option for some (many?) of us is going to be stones cut from lab-grown material.

If you are interested in Lab-Grown Ruby, I was at a shop earlier this week that was selling nice material for $30/ct at the Bangkok Jewelry Trade center.

I took a video of of this one because I thought it was cooI.

I didn’t pay attention to the name of the shop however.

If you or anyone else is interested (and it is permissible by PS rules), I can take a photo of their card and post it next time I visit there. Probably next week some time.

For the sake of transparency, I have no affiliation with the vendor. My interaction was all of 5 minutes long and I don’t even know their name.

It was just some stand right as you walk in the door.

They have lab-grown neon cobalt spinel and several other lab-grown gems for around the same price. I don’t know if they ship stones or not (though they probably do) but it might be a useful resource.

 

[Avondale]

Gene probably had some old stock left over from when the material was more reasonably priced. There would be no way to replace it at that cost nowadays.

Yes, I believe I’ve read him mention that he has rough from ages ago that he releases at old pricing so really, it’s a steal.

I have one of his previous Loliondo spesses, acquired relatively recently from another PSer who bought it originally nearly a decade ago at this point, and it stole my heart the moment I opened the box. If I had to look for one like it in the current market, at current prices, I simply wouldn’t have been able to afford it.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Yup! So so so true! The “or worse” is what put me off.

I like to go sapphire everything for the hardness and oranges were so affordable but in the end I noped out and settled on a Spess. My bestie bought a Spess many years ago and I had to take her to set it. I remember cussing her “You bloomin idiot how am I going to get you an off the shelf setting for a heart. And why orange????”

She cracked up when I sheepishly showed her this ring.

I have no idea! I needed a square cushion for that design and a big one. It’s 8 carats and 11mm so I didn’t look into origin.



Looks like I was lucky to nab my sister one too!