Red Spinel

[cm366]

Hey gang, I'd love to hear some opinions on a red spinel I was offered recently. It's 2.6 carats, 9.28 x 6.29 x 5.57 with an AIGS report stating natural untreated. There's an inclusion on one side, looks like a couple of small crystals to me, and what looks like a natural on the girdle, but the price seems pretty reasonable around $1k and I'm told the color's even better than the photos. The cut is definitely not precision, but it's not terrible, and I'm not sure whether it'll be durable enough for a recut.... Thoughts? Things to watch for?

 

[wordie89]

Color is yummy and the inclusions look small enough to verlook but the cut appears lopsided and its noticeable from top and bottom. Would that bug you?

 

[minousbijoux]

Is that Burmese? I can't tell from the photos whether its secondary is pinkish or orangish, because it seems to vary in your photos.

 

[minousbijoux]

Oh, and the natural and the crystal inclusions would not bother me at all. The cut is a bit off putting (wonder if a recut would be useful), and it depends on what you see in hand for color.

 

[minousbijoux]

Okay, I looked again. For that price and size, I might be able to put up with the off center culet. If you love the color in hand but the cutting bothers you, you could reach out to Jerry Newman to see if he thinks it would be a good candidate for a recut to even it out.

 

[cm366]

Thanks folks! It is Burmese, AIGS called it red only, which surprised me because like you, Minou, I see both pink and orange in it from different angles. The seller says it shows only red in hand, but it'll take me a couple of weeks to get hold of it and see for myself. The seller was kind enough to shoot me a video as well, but I'm reluctant to link to it because it identifies the vendor and I'd hate to get outbid! Here's the AIGS report....

The cut.... yeah. I've found a couple of stones whose cut really annoyed me in macro shots but which then looked lovely in the hand, so I'm not sure how sensitive I really am about it - it's definitely less important to me than colour. This seems to have the dimensions for a recut if necessary, but I'm not sure how durable it'd be... any cutters want to chime in?

 

[ChrisA222]

Cm,

I definately like the color enough to take a chance...esp if the vendor says it looks red in hand.

Also, there looks like enough material back there for a recut...which I would absolutely do. But, you know me....my whole collection is pretty much recuts.

Jerry Newman or Dan Stair would transform that stone...I think a brilliant style pavillion would add a ton of sparkle to the stone, which is absent with those lazy step cuts..and not only that, the off center culet would be fixed. I'd probably have the cutter only work on the pavillion...as the crown looks OK to me.

I can't tell you how much happier I am with my brilliant ovals that Dan has done for me...SO much better than the step cuts..

Either way, I do like the stone. Red Spinels are great when you find a good one, with no pink or orange. I was lucky enough to find a really nice one, but its much smaler, only 1.26ct. I'd LOVE that one there

 

[minousbijoux]

Its funny about how people see color differently. I asked if it was Burmese, because from the photos anyway, I assumed it was a flame spinel due to that orange component. Actually, while I know most people prefer the purple red side of the spectrum for spinels, I don't mind an orange secondary, like yours. For durability, as you know, its really a matter of the inclusions. I don't know if you're in a position to know by louping it when you have it hand. Who knows, the cut might not even bother you - like so many I've seen, it does not look dead in the center and has a nice color throughout. It could be that when mounted the lop-sided culet and cutting won't even be noticeable. Just to preserve your options, is there any way you can make the sale contingent upon extra time for you to send it to a cutter for evaluation? Just a thought...

 

[chrono]

I think it is very well priced for the size and colour. It is normal to see hints of pink (light toned red) and perhaps the orange will not be as obvious in real life. Most red spinels show varying degrees of orange. I think the cut isn't too terrible and there is a reason why the culet isn't centered. I expect this spinel to be very clean in person. There's nothing to be done about the natural at the girdle although it is fairly large.

I don't think this stone is a good candidate for a recut. The depth is just enough as it is. To the enter culet will involve losing quite a bit of material there, thereby possibly forced to window it.

 

[ChrisA222]

Definately have to disagree there Chrono....I don't think a pavillion recut would necessarily lose much of the depth or much material....just let a cutter reshape with brilliant-style facets, recenter the culet a little bit...Im willing to bet that stone would look MUCH better.

But yeah, a cutter would be the one to say yes or no..doesn't matter what Chrono or myself thinks, the cutter has to have the stone in hand to make the call...I do it all the time...Dan will say yes--its a good candidate, or no-its not. Usually my guesses are pretty good with recuts, only once did I make a mistake and have him do a recut of a too-shallow stone. But one out of...maybe 20 stones he did for me? And the outcome is so much better than the awkward step cutting. I don't see the harm in getting a cutters opinion-if you have the time-when the outcome could be a stone that looks much much more brilliant.

I will admit that I just don't like step cuts..and I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to get the most out of their stone's potential, which is what the brilliant faceting does..

 

[chrono]

A general pavilion recut usually doesn't have much weight loss but a recentering of a lopsided culet will. It is simple mathematics. You can draw this out on a square lined paper. Draw a stone with a lopsided culet, then draw another line across where the true center will be. Draw a slash line parallel to the girdle up to where they intersect with the new cemetery culet. This is the new total depth of the stone. You'll see that you can easily lose 1 mm and upwards of the total depth, depending on how off symmetry the stone is in the first place. This spinel is at an ideal depth right now bordering 70%. To drop 1 mm or more, risks other cut issues like windowing and creating a bowtie, especially with the elongated shape.

 

[cm366]

Wonderful feedback, gang, and many thanks! I'm not sold on the need for a recut and Chrono's point makes a lot of sense - it's not just about having enough weight, it's having that weight in the right places! I wonder about the possibility of recutting for brilliance alone, though..... I went ahead and got the stone - can't wait for it to show up so I can see what the colour's like. Like you say, Minou, once it's set the cut might not be an issue.

Here's the link to the video - you can see the natural on the top, and the crystals down on the bottom. Thanks for the feedback thus far, please let me know if any other ideas pop up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huOYu-NrsHs&feature=youtu.be&hd=1

 

[chrono]

I reread my post and noticed the "cemetery" cut. That's what happens when my phone tries to auto-correct my sentences. I meant to write "center cut".

The video tells me more than the pictures. Firstly, the natural is quite small so it isn't that terrible. Secondly, the girdle is very thick because it has to accomodate the natural, so that's where some of the weight is going, leaving you less depth to work with for a recut. Thirdly, I can barely tell the culet is off-set, which is a good thing.

I'm exciting to have to view this in person. It has the potential to look lovely. Just keep an eye out for its colour shift indoors. It may be fine or it might become muddy.

 

[chrono]

I was looking through my files for pictures of a failed project and found something that is relevant to this topic - recentering of a culet. This was sent to me by the lapidary who tried to recut a red spinel for me and as you can see, the face up measurement will be affected, and there's quite a bit of weight loss in the pavilion too. With a 2.6 ct stone, you could potentially drop under the 2 ct mark.

 

[ChrisA222]

Chrono, maybe in the case of that stone, there would be too much loss, but maybe not with CMs. I still think its worth sending pictures/dimensions to a cutter like Dan, if not sending the stone, to get an opinion.

Not everyone prioritizes cutting as much as I do, or as little as some others on this forum. It is subjective. I've stated many times that I'd rather have a stone that was eye-poppingly brilliant with its cutting, than settle for step-cutting which really doesn't do anything for the stone. Again, not everyone agrees with me and thats fine. My Sapphire in my ring/avatar, was 2.55ct and lost .20 when Dan recut the pavillion and fixed the off-set culet, so for me, that was worth it (And then some!!). Going from 2.6ct to 1.9ct, wouldn't be an issue for me--as I don't prioritize weight nearly as much as beauty and/or face-up size. It would depend on how much face-up size would be sacrificed, if any. If you're talking going from 10x8 to 8x6, then of course forget the recut. But if the stone remains close to the same size and the weight is only lost in the pavillion, then so what?

In your example, the stone would lose some face-up size, but that doesn't always happen. Many of my stones which were recut lost weight but not their face up size, so what was really lost? The stones value increases with the better cuts more than it decreased with a little ct loss, IMO.

Also, and I wish some cutters would chime in on this, but from what I understand there are different cut designs that allow for lesser depth. I had a stone recently with a severe depth problem, and Jerry had an oval design that only required 48% depth if memory serves. So there is not one set rule where a 70% depth is required..

Im not claiming to be an expert when it comes to cuts/recuts/optics and so on...my only point is that, if a stone can be improved from a performance standpoint, without so much face-up size sacrificed, it may be worth considering and getting a cutters opinion.

Not every cut is the same, and not every cut requires the same amount of depth.

 

[innerkitten]

It's a great color! If you cut it I hope you don't lose much stone.

 

[minousbijoux]

Having now seen the video, I observe the following: 1) small natural, not worth worrying about; 2) definitely flame spinel from color; 3) do not recut! Looks pretty as is - its lively, well saturated and even colored.

I hope its as pretty in real life as it is in the video and that you love it! Congratulations on snagging a very nice stone for a good price.

 

[cm366]

The stone's arrived and I'm very happy Will post pics as soon as things get a little less crazy around here - as you guessed, Chrono, it's eye clean in hand and the color's pretty stable in various lights.

 

[chrono]

The stone's arrived and I'm very happy Will post pics as soon as things get a little less crazy around here - as you guessed, Chrono, it's eye clean in hand and the color's pretty stable in various lights.

Awesome! I'm looking forward to lots of pictures.

 

[minousbijoux]

That is great - then you made a very good buy and should be proud!

Looking forward to pics.

 

[Kim Bruun]

The stone's arrived and I'm very happy Will post pics as soon as things get a little less crazy around here - as you guessed, Chrono, it's eye clean in hand and the color's pretty stable in various lights.

Nice! I have a red Burmese myself, and I love the colour. Mine's also a little off center but it does not affect the face up beauty of the stone. Yours look to be of a wonderful colour, and those crystals wouldn't bother me either.

 

[jstarfireb]

I'm glad you love the color in person! Are you still considering a recut?

 

[cm366]

Thanks gang! I promise, pics are coming!

You know, it's the reverse of my usual pattern, but now that I have the stone in hand I'm considering a recut more seriously. The color's great, but it bugs me a little that the cut's that little bit uneven. I think PS is insidiously raising my standards, and I'm not at all sure that I like it! I'll play with it a little more and maybe send it to someone who cuts more than I do for an opinion..... Any recommendations?

 

[ChrisA222]

Cm,

Dan stair recut the pavilion of the sapphire in my avatar...had off center culet, but mainly he reshaped the step style to a brilliant style, which I much prefer, and it fixed the slight zoning issues I had with the stone when I got it.

 

[LD]

Why on earth would you recut this? It looks gorgeous face up. A recut will mean you lose weight and value in the process.

 

[innerkitten]

Glad it worked out for you! can't wait to see pics.

 

[cm366]

LD - I'm not dead set on a recut, just might be interested enough to hazard the cost of postage for a more qualified opinion than my own. I love the color on this stone, but it definitely sparkles more from one side than the other. I'll keep playing with it and see how I feel about it down the road

 

[chrono]

Take your time to understand the spinel better. If it still bothers you, I recommend GemMart's services. Pricing is great for the quality and he cuts very beautifully. Remember, the stone can be cut easily but the process cannot be reversed.

 

[cm366]

3 contiguous days off = Pictures! It's overcast and my photography's unimpressive, so they aren't quite what I'd like them to be, but I'm getting there thanks to some good tips from photo-savvy members...

The more I play with this stone, the more I like the cut as-is. It does show more sparkle from one side than the other, but the colour's just lovely in hand, probably closest to the picture subtitled 0408.

 

[cm366]

The final shot was with all the lights off, which had the interesting effect of turning the whole picture greyish-blue... cameras are pretty cool too

This one's a shot of three new tsavorites, the top pair from the same vendor as the spinel, the bottom one from Distinction Jewelry, plus a group shot of the tsavs, spinel, Colombian emerald from our very own Justin Cutter and two aquas from Jordan Wilkins. Both the aquas and the emerald have some light inclusions, but then so do the tsavs and spinel - I love the colours together!

Interesting that the spinel keeps showing up so pink - it's nearly a pure red in hand. Will have to take more pics in different lighting